Anyone see this article on the AAMC site? (Affirmative Action related)

[VneZonyDostupa]

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Members do not see this ad.

Haha wikipedia it man. Women, homosexuals, minorities, disabled individiduals, veterans, econonomically disadvantaged etc. all benefit. There is just more data on its racial applications as America has a fixation on race. Anyways, if you would like continue talking PM me. I just got a new 42 inch plasma and I'm about to go MIA for a while! I'll holla.

Oh, I see what you meant. You think the fact that there is a broadly-worded "disadvantaged status" essay balances out the fact that I have to check the box clearly stating to the admissions committees that I am neither African-American nor am I hispianic.

Yeah, totally the same.

 

[LizzyM]

What I find interesting is this:

In recent years Latinos have experienced a 60 percent increase in their numbers at UC medical schools, but those gains do not keep pace with the overall rise in California's Latino population, the study stated

What is the age distribution of California's Latino population? Clearly we can't enroll student under the age of 18 (with very rare exceptions), nor those over the age of 50 (again with rare exception), nor can we enroll those who have not graduated from HS/completed college pre-reqs, and those who are unable to read and write in English. Has the population of Latinos who are between the ages of 18 and 49 , fluent in English and having attended college failed to keep pace with the increase in the number of Latinos in the UC medical schools? I suspect that the lag in enrollment can be tied to the growth in the population through births (Latinos have a relatively high birth rate in comparison to non-Latinos) and in immigration of persons who are not fluent in English.

 

[bcat85]

"[Ward Connerly] said that society has now essentially rendered practices like affirmative action obsolete."

Now I can recognize the shortcomings of AA, and I'm all for changes aimed to better resolve the issues AA attempts to resolve... but when the anti-AA proponents make such short-sighted comments like that above, I have to laugh. I don't understand why those so upset by AA don't propose a more effective resolution to the issues rather than discounting the presence of the issues at all, like Ward Connerly and nearly every other anti-AA proponent foolishly has done. It would seemingly be in their best interest to do so...

I like this guy👍

 

[riceman04]

And who exactly do you think is applying to the spots reserved for PRIME-LC students and the other PRIME programs? Chinese Americans? Like I said, its a thinly disguised way to get more hispanic students.

And here in lies the problem with Ward Connerly's assumption that ANYONE would be willing to work within such a community. Your response highlights why these policies are painstkingly maintained. The fact of the matter is that most others would not choose the option to work in underserved communities.

So...therefore, I feel I should ask you if you REALLY (no really) believe those programs primarily serve the purpose of a disguise to attract more hispanic students" just to increase diversity or do medical schools actually recognize the need to attract students who have already identified a desire to work in these areas? I would assume the latter since this social construct (medical school) was designed to train capable individuals (of any race/etnicity) to serve the health needs of EVERYONE.

Many FMG's fill these roles as well within underserved communities

 

[JamesBond15]

UCLA got in a lot of trouble with the media because of the very low number of African-Americans admitted. UCLA said they will use a more "holistic" approach to apps to get more URMs. What have they changed in their approach that they were able to get more African-Americans? Not like the student body suddenly improved. Nobody will straight out say it, but it is very likely they consider race.

It is also a problem for UC Meds. I know Hispanic individuals with low stats and yet they get secondaries and interviews from the UCs. And I mean low stats, if they were white they won't even get a secondary. That's BS. And don't even start with the "it doesn't happen" it so does.

No adcom will say it.. but it happens. Just like a car salesman, do you really think he/she will say the car sucks? Really now.

 

[scarletgirl777]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. How ridiculous is it for a program to exist solely to advance a group, only to have it coddle and demean that same group?

I've always thought it would be better to provide extra assistance purely on a basis of financial disadvantage, rather than skin color.

Morally, how is that any different? Why is it perfectly ok in your mind to tell poor people (as it would appear in your eyes) that they're just not as smart or able to work as hard? Is this just less threatening for you?

We live in a country where power and resources are contained in networks, and these networks are racialized, and the networks with the power and resources are a certain color. And so everyone who is not that color (and to a certain extent, gender), no matter how much money they have, has to make an extra effort to penetrate those networks.

 

[Raryn]

Morally, how is that any different? Why is it perfectly ok in your mind to tell poor people (as it would appear in your eyes) that they're just not as smart or able to work as hard? Is this just less threatening for you?

We live in a country where power and resources are contained in networks, and these networks are racialized, and the networks with the power and resources are a certain color. And so everyone who is not that color (and to a certain extent, gender), no matter how much money they have, has to make an extra effort to penetrate those networks.

Because all poor people (the white ones too) have real disadvantages. A lack of good schools, parents not able to supply all of the extra things (like test prep), maybe a requirement of work. I would be 100% supportive of need-based "affirmative action", which is what disadvantaged status is. Theres no way in hell I would ever qualify for it, but I have reaped the benefits of being from an upper middle class family.

Now, programs which are geared specifically for African American or Hispanic students are totally unfair. Any "disadvantages" faced by these groups NOT stemming from their poverty are usually either imagined or cultural. I'm sorry, but not trying hard in school because getting good grades is "acting white" is not a good reason for me to feel sorry for you.The success of recent African and Caribbean immigrants who are not part of the prevalent African American culture shows that success is not impossible because they're black. The (relatively more) widespread poverty among these ethnic groups is more of a historic artifact than anything else, since even with America's high social mobility, most people who are born poor will die poor. Theres plenty of programs to help poor individuals though, and I definitely support more.

Also, before flahless brings it up again, there were some other, historic forms of affirmative action. But most of them are no longer relevant. For example, helping women get into med school is no longer an issue as they matched, and even surpassed men in a lot of schools, decades ago. There is also no longer any sort of real discrimination against veterans, who probably now have better shots of getting in than the average person by virtue of life experience.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Morally, how is that any different? Why is it perfectly ok in your mind to tell poor people (as it would appear in your eyes) that they're just not as smart or able to work as hard? Is this just less threatening for you?

Raryn said it nicely:

Because all poor people (the white ones too) have real disadvantages. A lack of good schools, parents not able to supply all of the extra things (like test prep), maybe a requirement of work.

ALL financially disadvantaged students face these problems, whereas a FRACTION of URM students face them. Wouldn't it make sense to gear the program so that it has maximum efficacy?

We live in a country where power and resources are contained in networks, and these networks are racialized, and the networks with the power and resources are a certain color. And so everyone who is not that color (and to a certain extent, gender), no matter how much money they have, has to make an extra effort to penetrate those networks.

Pardon my crude response but, bull crap. I have NEVER been part of any educational or otherwise program that was not accesable to anyone of any gender, race, sexuality or religion. To me, it sounds like you're just playing the victim and trying to come up with an external source of oppression when, in reality, there is none. Can you name one organization vital to success in pre-medical or medical years that is as exclusionary as you say it is? I imagine you'll have a hard time.

 

[riceman04]

UCLA got in a lot of trouble with the media because of the very low number of African-Americans admitted. UCLA said they will use a more "holistic" approach to apps to get more URMs. What have they changed in their approach that they were able to get more African-Americans? Not like the student body suddenly improved. Nobody will straight out say it, but it is very likely they consider race.

It is also a problem for UC Meds. I know Hispanic individuals with low stats and yet they get secondaries and interviews from the UCs. And I mean low stats, if they were white they won't even get a secondary. That's BS. And don't even start with the "it doesn't happen" it so does.

No adcom will say it.. but it happens. Just like a car salesman, do you really think he/she will say the car sucks? Really now.

hahahahaha...so simplistic and purely anecdotal.....lol...and yet expected...carry on 007

just watch where you are pointing that pistol

 

[Retsage]

I can see where you're coming from, but you also have to take into account that FP and several other primary care careers occupy the lower end of the score range. While this doesn't mean primary care docs are worse than specialists (I would really like to see many, many more primary care docs all over the country rather than specialists), I think it does indicate that sometimes people who do poorly are pigeon-holed into primary care. Couple that with these people having a harder time finding a position due to lower scores and possibly less-than-stellar reviews during rotations, and now you've got a mediocre doctor working in a needy area.

Perhaps, but a mediocre doctor is better than no doctor at all. That's the point of AA in medicine, creating doctors that will go back to their underserved communities after graduation.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Perhaps, but a mediocre doctor is better than no doctor at all. That's the point of AA in medicine, creating doctors that will go back to their underserved communities after graduation.

Oh, I absolutely agree that any doctor is better than not having one. Although I'm not a fan of capitalism/libertarianism, they make a good point against the whole 'but we need doctors who will go back to their communities' bit. If we only admit the best candidates and only produce stellar doctors, the job market would eventually push some of them to the rural areas. Demand determines where services are offered.

 

[deleted74029]

I'm sorry, but not trying hard in school because getting good grades is "acting white" is not a good reason for me to feel sorry for you.The success of recent African and Caribbean immigrants who are not part of the prevalent African American culture shows that success is not impossible because they're black.

I was actually agreeing with you before this statement. This is quite an assinine statement coming from someone as intelligent as yourself. I've been called ''white'' by lots of people in my lifetime and not once was it because I wanted to be successful or had good grades. Moreover, thinking that the current african american culture(what the hell is that anyway) doesn't think they can be successful is just absurd. I don't know what black people you've been around, but most of them aren't in school to try to make bad grades, especially those who have aspirations of being a physician.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Because all poor people (the white ones too) have real disadvantages. A lack of good schools, parents not able to supply all of the extra things (like test prep), maybe a requirement of work. I would be 100% supportive of need-based "affirmative action", which is what disadvantaged status is. Theres no way in hell I would ever qualify for it, but I have reaped the benefits of being from an upper middle class family.

Now, programs which are geared specifically for African American or Hispanic students are totally unfair. Any "disadvantages" faced by these groups NOT stemming from their poverty are usually either imagined or cultural. I'm sorry, but not trying hard in school because getting good grades is "acting white" is not a good reason for me to feel sorry for you.The success of recent African and Caribbean immigrants who are not part of the prevalent African American culture shows that success is not impossible because they're black. The (relatively more) widespread poverty among these ethnic groups is more of a historic artifact than anything else, since even with America's high social mobility, most people who are born poor will die poor. Theres plenty of programs to help poor individuals though, and I definitely support more.

Also, before flahless brings it up again, there were some other, historic forms of affirmative action. But most of them are no longer relevant. For example, helping women get into med school is no longer an issue as they matched, and even surpassed men in a lot of schools, decades ago. There is also no longer any sort of real discrimination against veterans, who probably now have better shots of getting in than the average person by virtue of life experience.

People like to focus on the "acting white" phenomenon because it is a curiosity that is easily mocked, but it is really drastically overemphasized. A lot of problems that minorities have accessing resources stems from other people outside the cultural groups not having confidence in ability to make use of these resources and thrived. No one is saying that is impossible to succeed when Black...there are many Africans, Caribbeans, AND African-Americans who are doing well. But you're kidding yourself if you really believe that there are no barriers to success based solely on race and culture. I consider myself to be very successful, but this is in spite of people who assumed from day one that I couldn't make. Yes, I worked hard to prove myself and eventually gain respect, but the point is, why is the presumption that I can't? Why must I continually make an extra effort every time I interact with a new institution or a new teacher? Why do none of the white kids think to ask me or any of my Black peers to join their study groups?

All this is not to make excuses. Ultimately, your success is your responsibility, and I've done everything I can to make sure that my success is in my power. But on a statistical level where we're analyzing whole populations, it makes sense that a disproportionate number of a particular group is not going to make the bar. It feels like the way the system is working, unless a URM finds themselves in a situation where they appear to be a much higher performer than everyone else around them, they are going to be excluded from these kind of social and scholarly networks. At least, that is what my experience has been.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Raryn said it nicely:


ALL financially disadvantaged students face these problems, whereas a FRACTION of URM students face them. Wouldn't it make sense to gear the program so that it has maximum efficacy?



Pardon my crude response but, bull crap. I have NEVER been part of any educational or otherwise program that was not accesable to anyone of any gender, race, sexuality or religion. To me, it sounds like you're just playing the victim and trying to come up with an external source of oppression when, in reality, there is none. Can you name one organization vital to success in pre-medical or medical years that is as exclusionary as you say it is? I imagine you'll have a hard time.

Obviously, formal organizations (usually) can't exclude based on race. But at least in my experience, where I go to school, I have seen a racialization of study groups and other supportive social networks. Also, when you are the first or second generation in your family to make it in a particular way, there is information that you do not have access to that someone who has been in a family that has been successful for a long time does not even realize you are missing. And African Americans, Africans, and Caribbeans in America are disproportionately new to success--something that household income can't properly demonstrate.

 

[flaahless]

Raryn said it nicely:


ALL financially disadvantaged students face these problems, whereas a FRACTION of URM students face them. Wouldn't it make sense to gear the program so that it has maximum efficacy?

How do you know this is not being done? AMCAS doesn't post admission statistics of disadvantaged students. Save the conjecture for a non-science based career.

Pardon my crude response but, bull crap. I have NEVER been part of any educational or otherwise program that was not accesable to anyone of any gender, race, sexuality or religion. To me, it sounds like you're just playing the victim and trying to come up with an external source of oppression when, in reality, there is none. Can you name one organization vital to success in pre-medical or medical years that is as exclusionary as you say it is? I imagine you'll have a hard time.

This is really naive and ignorant to the social and economic pathologies that plague this country. Take an ethnic humanities or sociology class and then holla at me.

 

[flaahless]

I was actually agreeing with you before this statement. This is quite an assinine statement coming from someone as intelligent as yourself. I've been called ''white'' by lots of people in my lifetime and not once was it because I wanted to be successful or had good grades. Moreover, thinking that the current african american culture(what the hell is that anyway) doesn't think they can be successful is just absurd. I don't know what black people you've been around, but most of them aren't in school to try to make bad grades, especially those who have aspirations of being a physician.

He's 19.

 

[n3opologist]

AA is a solution to a problem. The problem is minorities not being represented in colleges and greater academic institutions such as medical schools. AA is, however, flawed because it tries to 'clean up' the mess of a problem, instead of fixing the problem. I have spent 100s of hours with inner city black children, trying to get them excited about an academic career and the prospect of college. About 80% of these children have families where either one of the parents isn't in the picture or another caregiver such as a grandparent or sibling is the guardian. They are poor, and anyone who understands basic sociology/anthropology knows that poverty sucks opportunity from any people (white/black/brown/purple). The problem needs to be fixed from the ground up, with money spent on keeping families together and paying for the educational resources of America's impoverished youth. It can also be fixed by everyone of us volunteering our time to improve the condition that results from poverty. How many times does history have to repeat itself for us to learn that letting poverty fester only creates more problems for the rich?

Clarence Thomas opposes AA because he feels it handicaps the intellectual ability of black Americans. We all know that every human being (pathology aside) has roughly the same mental capabilities, or at the very least, the mental abilities to attend college and purse graduate education. AA is a quick fix that is cleaning up the poop that fido left on the floor. If we want fido to stop defecating, we need to teach him to poop outside and stop cleaning up his mess. See what I'm saying? Let's fix the problem, not wipe away the problematic result.

 

[flaahless]

AA is a solution to a problem. The problem is minorities not being represented in colleges and greater academic institutions such as medical schools. AA is, however, flawed because it tries to 'clean up' the mess of a problem, instead of fixing the problem. I have spent 100s of hours with inner city black children, trying to get them excited about an academic career and the prospect of college. About 80% of these children have families where either one of the parents isn't in the picture or another caregiver such as a grandparent or sibling is the guardian. They are poor, and anyone who understands basic sociology/anthropology knows that poverty sucks opportunity from any people (white/black/brown/purple). The problem needs to be fixed from the ground up, with money spent on keeping families together and paying for the educational resources of America's impoverished youth. It can also be fixed by everyone of us volunteering our time to improve the condition that results from poverty. How many times does history have to repeat itself for us to learn that letting poverty fester only creates more problems for the rich?

Clarence Thomas opposes AA because he feels it handicaps the intellectual ability of black Americans. We all know that every human being (pathology aside) has roughly the same mental capabilities, or at the very least, the mental abilities to attend college and purse graduate education. AA is a quick fix that is cleaning up the poop that fido left on the floor. If we want fido to stop defecating, we need to teach him to poop outside and stop cleaning up his mess. See what I'm saying? Let's fix the problem, not wipe away the problematic result.

And to expound on this. It's not just the kids, their families and poverty, but also REALLY crappy education systems. Some of the schools are a joke. Filled with teachers without any real interest in the students, their goals, motivations or dreams. The kids don't try because the teachers don't try, the teachers don't try because the kids don't try... it's a perpetual cycle with the primary victim being inner-city children.

And then people harp on AA as if the student at Orange Lutheran (an upper-middle class private school in Orange County) and the student at Long Beach Jordan (a glorified juvenile hall) have the same experiences and opportunities. Give me a break. At Jordan you not only have to deal with with incompetent and unmotivated faculty, but the racism, gangs, drugs and violence associated with the hood.

Of course the student at Orange Lutheran is going to get a 4.2 and 2120 SAT. The worst thing they have to worry about is whether they should get the new BMW M3 or Audi A5.

Is this the case for all ethnic minorities? No. Certainly not. But to act like America is a fair and equal country without ethnic disparities is ignorant.

 

[deleted74029]

The only problem with that is that its solely at the adcoms discretion as to who they want to admit. We've all heard of the 4.0/40 applicants who get rejected at lots of schools. I'm sure they could file suit, but there are other intangibles that sometimes can't be put on paper. There was a medical student just arrested cause he wanted to have slaves, I doubt that he put it on his application. But what if he just came off as "weird" to the adcoms and they rejected him. Should he have been able to sue?

 

[HolyGrail]

Go ahead, SUE. Guess what, you'll LOSE if your case is meritless.

If your case has merit, the adcoms would think twice about EVER doing that again.👍

EDIT

Also, get rid of pictures in applications, get rid of the race checkbox. Then look at the interview field, if black/white/cuban/asian are being discriminated against, you'll figure it out really quickly from the % of people accepted from that field of people THEY HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN or COULDN'T EVEN KNOW THE RACE OF.

 

[deleted74029]

Go ahead, SUE. Guess what, you'll LOSE if your case is meritless.

If your case has merit, the adcoms would think twice about EVER doing that again.👍

EDIT

Also, get rid of pictures in applications, get rid of the race checkbox. Then look at the interview field, if black/white/cuban/asian are being discriminated against, you'll figure it out really quickly from the % of people accepted from that field of people THEY HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN or COULDN'T EVEN KNOW THE RACE OF.

😕😕😕 Maybe there was some confusion, but I was saying that suing would more than likely end in a loss. And I can't think of a situation where it would have merit.

I don't know the average size of a med school class but lets say its 150. Usually there are around 5-6 minorities in every class. You find out that one got in with a 25 MCAT and you got rejected with a 30 so you decide to sue. The matriculant average is a 31. Out of those 100+ white students I'd be willing to bet that there are at the least a couple of them with ~25 MCAT as well. Which would automatically dismiss your argument.

 

[suwaifo]

And to expound on this. It's not just the kids, their families and poverty, but also REALLY crappy education systems. Some of the schools are a joke. Filled with teachers without any real interest in the students, their goals, motivations or dreams. The kids don't try because the teachers don't try, the teachers don't try because the kids don't try... it's a perpetual cycle with the primary victim being inner-city children.

And then people harp on AA as if the student at Orange Lutheran (an upper-middle class private school in Orange County) and the student at Long Beach Jordan (a glorified juvenile hall) have the same experiences and opportunities. Give me a break. At Jordan you not only have to deal with with incompetent and unmotivated faculty, but the racism, gangs, drugs and violence associated with the hood.

Of course the student at Orange Lutheran is going to get a 4.2 and 2120 SAT. The worst thing they have to worry about is whether they should get the new BMW M3 or Audi A5.

Is this the case for all ethnic minorities? No. Certainly not. But to act like America is a fair and equal country without ethnic disparities is ignorant.

I don't think America is supposed to really be an "equal" country, but there is supposed to be equal opportunity, which there pretty much is unless I'm delusional. America is classist. Otherwise, we would pretty much be socialists or something. There will always be people on top and below, but at least it's not like a caste. You can actually make something of yourself, if that's what you want.

I'm not sure what AA has to do with this, but there are unmotivated students and teachers in every high school you go to. There is also racism pretty much everywhere along with gangs, drugs, and violence. This is the case, at least, if you live around LA. Never been to Orange County, but I'm sure the unmotivated students and teachers still carry through. I have never seen anyone with a real passion or dream let something so trivial as a bad school let him or her be stopped.

The statement about Orange Lutheran and those fancy cars really irks me. This is the same kind of stereotype that us Asians have to deal with. We're supposed to all be good at math, and oh boy, I wish that was the truth. Or maybe I'm just lazy and I haven't activated my super asian powers...

 

[parto123]

Haha wikipedia it man. Women, homosexuals, minorities, disabled individiduals, veterans, econonomically disadvantaged etc. all benefit. There is just more data on its racial applications as America has a fixation on race. Anyways, if you would like continue talking PM me. I just got a new 42 inch plasma and I'm about to go MIA for a while! I'll holla.

All adcoms claim to give preference to socioeconomically disadvantaged, but there have been several studies recently that looked into this claim and it turned out to be completely false. Here is an article about one of these studies:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/id.../the_case_for_class_based_affirmative_action/

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Of course the student at Orange Lutheran is going to get a 4.2 and 2120 SAT. The worst thing they have to worry about is whether they should get the new BMW M3 or Audi A5.

So, it's only racist/classist/elitist when YOU aren't saying it, I take it?

 

[deleted74029]

I don't think America is supposed to really be an "equal" country, but there is supposed to be equal opportunity, which there pretty much is unless I'm delusional. America is classist. Otherwise, we would pretty much be socialists or something. There will always be people on top and below, but at least it's not like a caste. You can actually make something of yourself, if that's what you want.

I'm not sure what AA has to do with this, but there are unmotivated students and teachers in every high school you go to. There is also racism pretty much everywhere along with gangs, drugs, and violence. This is the case, at least, if you live around LA. Never been to Orange County, but I'm sure the unmotivated students and teachers still carry through. I have never seen anyone with a real passion or dream let something so trivial as a bad school let him or her be stopped.

The statement about Orange Lutheran and those fancy cars really irks me. This is the same kind of stereotype that us Asians have to deal with. We're supposed to all be good at math, and oh boy, I wish that was the truth. Or maybe I'm just lazy and I haven't activated my super asian powers...

I agree the Orange Lutheran analogy was kind of extreme, as most suburban kids don't drive BMWs or have a 4.2. But the separation is still there and unless you've experienced or seen both you probably wouldn't understand. I went to an inner city private school for awhile as a child and it was pretty bad. This was a private school so I can only imagine how bad the public schools were. I then switched to the public elementary school near my house, which was very suburban and the difference was astounding to me even in my youth. This was just elementary so the secondary schools were presumably worse, and they were.

And everyone has to deal with stereotypes, I'm a 6'2 200lb black male so everyone at my state school assumes I play a sport. When in actuality I was cut from both the baseball and basketball teams when I was in high school. This didn't stop me from getting voted most athletic in high school, which couldn't have possibly stemmed from my obvious lack of athletic ability.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Wouldn't the problems of the inner city schools be based more on the lack of funding, rather than racial make-up? Doesn't this, once again, point to a financial AA system rather than race-based?

 

[deleted74029]

Wouldn't the problems of the inner city schools be based more on the lack of funding, rather than racial make-up? Doesn't this, once again, point to a financial AA system rather than race-based?

I never said it was race-based. Look at my other posts and you'll see that I'm actually for the SE-based alternative.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I never said it was race-based. Look at my other posts and you'll see that I'm actually for the SE-based alternative.

I meant to aim that at the race-based AA supporters, not you Ejay. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[parto123]

Wouldn't the problems of the inner city schools be based more on the lack of funding, rather than racial make-up? Doesn't this, once again, point to a financial AA system rather than race-based?

Because the stated reason for giving admission preferences to minorities is to achieve racial diversity. The schools themselves state that using financial based preferences wouldn’t help at all in achieving the goal of racial diversity.

 

[flaahless]

I don't think America is supposed to really be an "equal" country, but there is supposed to be equal opportunity, which there pretty much is unless I'm delusional. America is classist. Otherwise, we would pretty much be socialists or something. There will always be people on top and below, but at least it's not like a caste. You can actually make something of yourself, if that's what you want.

I'm not sure what AA has to do with this, but there are unmotivated students and teachers in every high school you go to. There is also racism pretty much everywhere along with gangs, drugs, and violence. This is the case, at least, if you live around LA. Never been to Orange County, but I'm sure the unmotivated students and teachers still carry through. I have never seen anyone with a real passion or dream let something so trivial as a bad school let him or her be stopped.

The statement about Orange Lutheran and those fancy cars really irks me. This is the same kind of stereotype that us Asians have to deal with. We're supposed to all be good at math, and oh boy, I wish that was the truth. Or maybe I'm just lazy and I haven't activated my super asian powers...

It was an example. I guess I should have made my last sentence more clear when I said it wasn't always the case. But still, to act like their is equal opportunity IS still ignorant to many of the disparities that still occur in society.

And another point. ~ 90% of the students from the OC upper-middle class schools go on to college. ~ 75% of those are four year universities. So an unmotivated student at Orange Lutheran, or Servite, or Damien, or University Hight etc. will most likely go to college. Motivated or not.

Now, an unmotivated student at LB Poly, or Dorsey, or Westchester, Garfield, Lynwood etc... will most likely drop out. Do you see the difference? Is that due to economics, largely. But is it also due to social and ethnic oppression, yes.

 

[deleted74029]

I meant to aim that at the race-based AA supporters, not you Ejay. Sorry for the confusion.

Its all love man.

 

[flaahless]

Wouldn't the problems of the inner city schools be based more on the lack of funding, rather than racial make-up? Doesn't this, once again, point to a financial AA system rather than race-based?

Naah man. It is not that simple. You really have to take an ethnic humanities class to understand. This all goes back to Jim Crow and forced integration when prosperous business owners fled integrated cities: ie, moved from Compton to Irvine, and took money out of ethnic communities, cut off bus lines and restricted access to education. This resulted in dense concentrations of ethnic minorities who have no money, and without money you have no real means to make money. It's very complex.

And when you have a bunch of people with no money, you get a dog eat dog situation and you have the associated racism that plagues these communities. From racist law enforcement to racial tensions and feuds between various ethnicities, ie: African-American vs. Mexican-American vs. Korean American vs. filipino-americans vs. the Ginyu force vs. Power Rangers. And then you have all of those ethnicities fighting within themselves as well. All because they are fighting for crumbs.

It's much, much more than mere economics. As our society stands today, economics and race are intricately connected and will remain so for a very long time.

 

[deleted74029]

Now, an unmotivated student at LB Poly, or Dorsey, or Westchester, Garfield, Lynwood etc... will most likely drop out. Do you see the difference? Is that due to economics, largely. But is it also due to social and ethnic oppression, yes.

I'm gonna have to disagree, black students at suburban schools probably graduate and go to college at pretty much the same rate as their white counterparts. Will they face some racism? Of course. I know you're from California so you may have been subject to a little bit of it, but I'm from a 90% white town in southern Arkansas, the state where the Grand Wizard of the KKK lives. So I've probably been subject to much more racism than many others on here and not once did it keep me or the few other blacks at my school from doing what we wanted to do with our lives. Put a white student in an inner city school and see what happens, he will be subject to mostly the same misfortunes as everyone else.

 

[flaahless]

So, it's only racist/classist/elitist when YOU aren't saying it, I take it?

I didn't mention one race in my post. Visit Orange Lutheran and Long Beach Jordan and get back to me. You will understand the validity of my post.

 

[Nanon]

And who exactly do you think is applying to the spots reserved for PRIME-LC students and the other PRIME programs?

I am.

 

[flaahless]

I'm gonna have to disagree, black students at suburban schools probably graduate and go to college at pretty much the same rate as their white counterparts. Will they face some racism? Of course. I know you're from California so you may have been subject to a little bit of it, but I'm from a 90% white town in southern Arkansas, the state where the Grand Wizard of the KKK lives. So I've probably been subject to much more racism than many others on here and not once did it keep me or the few other blacks at my school from doing what we wanted to do with our lives. Put a white student in an inner city school and see what happens, he will be subject to mostly the same misfortunes as everyone else.

You completely missed my point.

My point is that if you go School A where 90% of the students go to college, then chances are, you're going to go to college, motivated or not.

If you go to School B where 20% of the students go to college, then the unmotivated ones won't do as well. Why? Because of the social environment.

If School A was in the hood, then things would be fine. But it's not. School B is in the hood, and as such, it's student body is composed primarily of urms. That's where race and economics are inextricably linked.

 

[flaahless]

I'm gonna have to disagree, black students at suburban schools probably graduate and go to college at pretty much the same rate as their white counterparts. Will they face some racism? Of course. I know you're from California so you may have been subject to a little bit of it, but I'm from a 90% white town in southern Arkansas, the state where the Grand Wizard of the KKK lives. So I've probably been subject to much more racism than many others on here and not once did it keep me or the few other blacks at my school from doing what we wanted to do with our lives. Put a white student in an inner city school and see what happens, he will be subject to mostly the same misfortunes as everyone else.

Anecdotal. And racism isn't always White vs. everything else. The racism in LA comes from all angles. White, black, brown, turquoise etc. I've been racially profiled by the police, arrested 10+ times, had guns drawn on me, thrown on the ground etc because I "fit the description." BUT I've also been banged on just as much ie: asked "What set you claim?" and jumped, beaten, chased and had 9s pointed in my face. By African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Cambodians. Skinheads cracked me in the temple with a beer bottle, spit on me, stole my bike etc.

My point is that is that in low-economic areas racism exists and it comes from all sides. It's much more complex than a lot of yall are making it out to be.

 

[deleted74029]

You completely missed my point.

My point is that if you go School A where 90% of the students go to college, then chances are, you're going to go to college, motivated or not.

If you go to School B where 20% of the students go to college, then the unmotivated ones won't do as well. Why? Because of the social environment.

If School A was in the hood, then things would be fine. But it's not. School B is in the hood, and as such, it's student body is composed primarily of urms. That's where race and economics are inextricably linked.

So instead of making an all-encompassing effort to improve School B, we let school B continue to operate as-is, and just make efforts to make it easier for a certain profile of students within that school?

We could improve School B by providing incentives for good teachers to teach at the school, replacing the old wornout textbooks, and making any other provisions conducive to a good education such as better ACT/SAT awareness, info on going to college and the like. This would improve the overall situation at the school and undoubtedly have some type effect on each individual child at the school.

Or, we could do nothing for the school but give the minority kids a boost when they apply to college, assuming they apply. Knowing that most of them probably won't. Thus, your helping out only the "motivated" students who wanted to go to college anyway rather than the ones who really needed it.

 

[deleted74029]

My point is that is that in low-economic areas racism exists and it comes from all sides. It's much more complex than a lot of yall are making it out to be.

Yet you make a counterpoint to my anecdote with another. If its coming from all sides, its not racism any more. Its a low class sect trying to survive, no matter what race you are.

 

[ravens11]

Whites make up 73% of the population, but only have 67% of medical school slots in the recent MSAR. Asians make up 3% of the population and have 10.6% of the slots. I found this ironic because most AA laws hurt whites, but they are already behind where they should be on a population basis for med school admits.

 

[flaahless]

So instead of making an all-encompassing effort to improve School B, we let school B continue to operate as-is, and just make efforts to make it easier for a certain profile of students within that school?

Hahaha where is the money going to come from to do this? Inner-city schools are so poor they are hiring teachers without credentials.

We could improve School B by providing incentives for good teachers to teach at the school, replacing the old wornout textbooks, and making any other provisions conducive to a good education such as better ACT/SAT awareness, info on going to college and the like. This would improve the overall situation at the school and undoubtedly have some type effect on each individual child at the school.

Again, this costs $. Public schools don't have a lot of it, ESPECIALLY the ones in the hood.

Also, I taught SAT for TPR. Interesting observation. The students are Orange Lutheran can afford the TPR Honors SAT class. They get a ton of work material, multiple practice tests and a ton of lecture time. They often score between 1800-2200+. I had one get a 2390.

The student's at school B can't afford the $1500, so what happens? Well, TPR and the public school system make a bargain to teach School Based Programs (SBPs). And we give the students the worst possible excuse for an SAT book ever. The lectures are condensed and we only teach the BARE MINIMUM. So, these students typically get 15-1900.

So what about the student's that aren't in the special SBP programs? Should they be penalized because they have NO control over their education? Should they? A kid with a 1750 from Dorsey and 3.6 should have a shot at UCLA.

Or, we could do nothing for the school but give the minority kids a boost when they apply to college, assuming they apply. Knowing that most of them probably won't. Thus, your helping out only the "motivated" students who wanted to go to college anyway rather than the ones who really needed it.

How about let's not give them a boost. How about we re-evaluate the qualifications? Is SAT/GPA really fair when there are VAST differences in opportunity? Some schools offer multiple AP classes that allow student's to get 5.0s, some schools don't offer any. Some schools offer better test prep, some schools don't offer any. Should we penalize the kids that do NOT have any control over this? And then if they do happen to get in, should we repeatedly tell them they are inferior and needed a boost? Give me a break. SAT/GPA favor certain students over others. A student from School A has a better shot at getting in that student at School B. Largely because of economics, but economics are inextricably linked to race and will be for generations to come.

 

[flaahless]

Yet you make a counterpoint to my anecdote with another. If its coming from all sides, its not racism any more. Its a low class sect trying to survive, no matter what race you are.

Dude you cannot separate the two. No matter how progressive we like to think America is, Race and Class are still linked. Do you get it?

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I didn't mention one race in my post. Visit Orange Lutheran and Long Beach Jordan and get back to me. You will understand the validity of my post.

No, what you said is racist. If someone made a comment about crime and African-Americans and then countered your refusal of the stereotype by saying, "Hey, visit Brooklyn and get back to me", would you still think it's racist?

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Naah man. It is not that simple. You really have to take an ethnic humanities class to understand.

I have, and it was filled with anecdotal evidence. All the studies they tried to back the "race" issues with actually boiled down to economic situations independent of race.

Next?

 

[deleted74029]

Dude you cannot separate the two. No matter how progressive we like to think America is, Race and Class are still linked. Do you get it?

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm tired of typing.

 

[Mike7704]

I am not trying to make a point I am just curious about this, please don't attack me! But wouldn't all things become equal once you enter college? Medical schools take into account your college grades not your high school grades. I agree that it is much more difficult for some inner-city youths to make it to college but those that did should be on the same playing field as non-urms, all things equal. I have yet to see, or hear of a four-year college as bad as many of the "hood" public schools are made out to be. Without a doubt something needs to be done to improve this area, it just seems that AA would be better suited for undergraduate education rather than professional schools. You could argue that those students in college were not given an adequate foundation upon which to build on but that isn't a valid argument. You only use material you learned in high school, for maybe freshman year of college and the rest is new.

 

[flaahless]

I have, and it was filled with anecdotal evidence. All the studies they tried to back the "race" issues with actually boiled down to economic situations independent of race.

Next?

So are you saying race isn't an issue? Try saying that to Sean Bell.

 

[airplanes]

If I could interject into the whole AA debate...I think some people are confused about what AA is...its not a boost up to unqualified students/job applicants etc. It's more like if two students are evenly matched (who knows how they classify all the stats) in the eyes of the adcom/federal employer etc, and one is a minority and the other is white...then the minority will be accepted as an acknowledgment of the obstacles and hoops they had to come through (racism, sexism, classism from society) to get to this point. It is assumed that the white person has had unfair advantages living in American society (ex. not getting pulled over on account of their race, not getting a racist teacher who gave up on your learning, etc). People with lower stats are NOT getting in over people with higher stats. the anecdotal evidence of the 4.0/40 not getting in...who knows? maybe he was a tool during his interview.

Also, AA only continues until the accpeted/hired represent the makeup of the applicant pool, no more, no less.

It's really not fair to say that because some white person got the perceived shaft, that a less qualified minority took their place.

Furthermore, racism is done by the systematically by society and the dominant paradigm. I'm sick of people saying this is racist, or that is racist in attempts to be PC...you're drowning out the real meaning of the word.


"I don't think America is supposed to really be an "equal" country, but there is supposed to be equal opportunity, which there pretty much is unless I'm delusional."

PS. America...land of equal opportunity?!!?! Uhhhh no way, look at who runs the country. Corporations, Government institutions, the Presidency (thus far), they are all middle aged, christian, able-bodied white men with token exceptions few and far between. It's not like these rich white guys are superior and work harder than everyone else therefore they earned it...the opportunities are not there for the taking, and you will have to work much harder than if you fall outside the general classification

 

[flaahless]

I am not trying to make a point I am just curious about this, please don't attack me! But wouldn't all things become equal once you enter college? Medical schools take into account your college grades not your high school grades. I agree that it is much more difficult for some inner-city youths to make it to college but those that did should be on the same playing field as non-urms, all things equal. I have yet to see, or hear of a four-year college as bad as many of the "hood" public schools are made out to be. Without a doubt something needs to be done to improve this area, it just seems that AA would be better suited for undergraduate education rather than professional schools. You could argue that those students in college were not given an adequate foundation upon which to build on but that isn't a valid argument. You only use material you learned in high school, for maybe freshman year of college and the rest is new.

Sure many of the educational opportunities are the same, but there are still cultural differences. Parents with degrees, family support, level of expectation etc. all contribute to educational success ... Ie: Immigrants often push the "Doctor or bust!" philosophy on their children. A quick search on this site and you will find many threads of students posting... "I don't want to be a doctor but my parent's are forcing me to!" That doesn't happen as much in urm cultures. It's a real complex situation, I suggest taking some humanities or sociology classes. And joining your schools adcom. I did a lot of research for my undergrad adcom and it really opened my eyes.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

So are you saying race isn't an issue? Try saying that to Sean Bell.

I never said race wasn't an issue in society. I DID say it shouldn't be a factor in medical admissions.

Also, you do realise that the Sean Bell case is still up in the air, yeah? Two of the police who shot him were African-American (are you suggesting they were self-hating?), Bell had been arrested on drug and firearm possession previously, as were his two friends who were injured in the incident, so they are not the posterboy he was made out to be, and a janitor at the club positively identified Bell as the man who ran from the club and fired twice at an undercover police officer. Granted, it's sad ANYTIME someone of ANY race is shot and killed, but don't act like this was an open and closed case of cops (two of whom were African-American) shooting an unarmed person.