Anyone see this article on the AAMC site? (Affirmative Action related)

[VneZonyDostupa]

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Did flaahless ever specify race in his post refering to the diff btwn students in the OC vs students at the various public la schools he mentioned?

His post (in fact, most of his posts) are an attempt to show hwo race and economic issues are invariably connected. He tried to support this by comparing an inner city school with an OC school. It's really not that hard to piece together, promise.

 

[Raryn]

His post (in fact, most of his posts) are an attempt to show hwo race and economic issues are invariably connected. He tried to support this by comparing an inner city school with an OC school. It's really not that hard to piece together, promise.

The poor white students are going to all these private schools too right? They're not suffering in any urban schools just like their black peers. Conversely, if they are in similar environments, why are they not afforded all the help that their peers are? I know there is disadvantaged status, but obviously you all believe that isn't sufficient for the African American students. Why is it sufficient for the poor whites? (Coincidently, there are far more disadvantaged Caucasians than there are minorities. Of course, theres less proportionally)

If we want to help the people in worse schools, that should be our criteria for help. The unmotivated White/Asian kids in your sample school can't afford SAT prep courses either. No one has yet shown any situation that harms African American disadvantaged students but not poor ones. Every bit of evidence is historic, and any proportional disadvantages are a direct result of that history, true. But history has just given the majority of the current generation of African Americans no more disadvantage than their White peers. Why should they be helped any more than others? I would say that any poor African American has the same opportunities as his white neighbor from down the block, and because of current AA policies, probably more. I haven't seen evidence of anything recent in this thread, other than some jabs at the NYPD, which has **** all to do with med school admissions.

P.S. I loved that jab about my age a few pages back. Ad hominem anyone?

 

[scarletgirl777]

The poor white students are going to all these private schools too right? They're not suffering in any urban schools just like their black peers. Conversely, if they are in similar environments, why are they not afforded all the help that their peers are? I know there is disadvantaged status, but obviously you all believe that isn't sufficient for the African American students. Why is it sufficient for the poor whites? (Coincidently, there are far more disadvantaged Caucasians than there are minorities. Of course, theres less proportionally)

If we want to help the people in worse schools, that should be our criteria for help. The unmotivated White/Asian kids in your sample school can't afford SAT prep courses either. No one has yet shown any situation that harms African American disadvantaged students but not poor ones. Every bit of evidence is historic, and any proportional disadvantages are a direct result of that history, true. But history has just given the majority of the current generation of African Americans no more disadvantage than their White peers. Why should they be helped any more than others? I would say that any poor African American has the same opportunities as his white neighbor from down the block, and because of current AA policies, probably more. I haven't seen evidence of anything recent in this thread, other than some jabs at the NYPD, which has **** all to do with med school admissions.

P.S. I loved that jab about my age a few pages back. Ad hominem anyone?

WTF.

I think that class is a bigger divider than race in this day and age. But given that I have personally been excluded from gifted programs based on race, been excluded by peers from study groups and other social networks on what I suspect was based on race, and been inexplicably been nudged away from honors programs probably because of race (I take **** from no one, especially idiotic high school teachers and thus fought them on it and joined anyway), the idea that people have not had opportunities denied to them based on race is BULLSH*T.

If you do not believe all the intelligent and systematic sociological commentary, well, various instances in my life are proof that race still matters. So try to educate yourself and wrap your mind around this concept.

 

[Raryn]

WTF.

I think that class is a bigger divider than race in this day and age. But given that I have personally been excluded from gifted programs based on race, been excluded by peers from study groups and other social networks on what I suspect was based on race, and been inexplicably been nudged away from honors programs probably because of race (I take **** from no one, especially idiotic high school teachers and thus fought them on it and joined anyway), the idea that people have not had opportunities denied to them based on race is BULLSH*T.

If you do not believe all the intelligent and systematic sociological commentary, well, various instances in my life are proof that race still matters. So try to educate yourself and wrap your mind around this concept.

I'm a member of an honors program and have served on one of the admissions committees, and I can say (at least for our program), the race of an applicant has never come up. We discuss grades, test scores, ECs, essays, LORs... thats about it. Now, we don't recruit a huge amount of minorities, but thats mostly because not many apply, and many turn the scholarship down to go to a different school (Maybe they got scholarships at other schools. We don't ask why a student turns us down). We have many Hispanics, and I can think of a handful of African American honors scholars.

Now, you suspect you have been barred from various programs because of your race. Is there anything to actually substantiate these claims? They may have not liked your application for some other reason. I have a very good friend who applied for the program which I'm in. She had amazing grades, good test scores, and relatively good ECs (not much community service I'd say). She got assigned to a different admissions committee than the one I'm on (conflict of interests are avoided), and got rejected. Whether it was low community service hours or bad essays or a poor LOR, who knows. Now, I know for a fact she had even better better stats than some of the people that got in, because I selected them. But shes not accusing the admissions committee of being anti-semitic (She happens to be Jewish), and if she was, I would treat the claim as ridiculous. Do you have anything other than your rejection to substantiate your claim that you were denied opportunities specifically because of your race?

Conversely, theres also plenty of other honors programs I am *definitely* not eligible for because of my race. Theres honors programs for a *wide* variety of ethnicities at my school, except for Caucasians. There are many minority outreach programs that provide opportunities and scholarships that are not available to me.

Now as for study groups, that may be your classmates. I know when I chose who to study with I usually just pick a classmate I'm on good terms with who seems to be relatively on top of the material, without reference to his/her race. Since Fresno State is an extraordinarily diverse institution, thats been a wide variety of people over the years. Can't say my experiences over the past 3 years have been any better OR worse because of this diversity in any way shape or form.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I'm a member of an honors program and have served on one of the admissions committees, and I can say (at least for our program), the race of an applicant has never come up. We discuss grades, test scores, ECs, essays, LORs... thats about it. Now, we don't recruit a huge amount of minorities, but thats mostly because not many apply, and many turn the scholarship down to go to a different school (Maybe they got scholarships at other schools. We don't ask why a student turns us down). We have many Hispanics, and I can think of a handful of African American honors scholars.

Now, you suspect you have been barred from various programs because of your race. Is there anything to actually substantiate these claims? They may have not liked your application for some other reason. I have a very good friend who applied for the program which I'm in. She had amazing grades, good test scores, and relatively good ECs (not much community service I'd say). She got assigned to a different admissions committee than the one I'm on (conflict of interests are avoided), and got rejected. Whether it was low community service hours or bad essays or a poor LOR, who knows. Now, I know for a fact she had even better better stats than some of the people that got in, because I selected them. But shes not accusing the admissions committee of being anti-semitic (She happens to be Jewish), and if she was, I would treat the claim as ridiculous. Do you have anything other than your rejection to substantiate your claim that you were denied opportunities specifically because of your race?

Conversely, theres also plenty of other honors programs I am *definitely* not eligible for because of my race. Theres honors programs for a *wide* variety of ethnicities at my school, except for Caucasians. There are many minority outreach programs that provide opportunities and scholarships that are not available to me.

Now as for study groups, that may be your classmates. I know when I chose who to study with I usually just pick a classmate I'm on good terms with who seems to be relatively on top of the material, without reference to his/her race. Since Fresno State is an extraordinarily diverse institution, thats been a wide variety of people over the years. Can't say my experiences over the past 3 years have been any better OR worse because of this diversity in any way shape or form.

Ok, let me make an effort to be more clear.

I transferred to a new school system as a high school student. I had excellent grades from my old system. Despite that, I was recommended not to go into honors classes. I insisted I wanted to go to honors classes anyway, but they signed me up for non honors classes behind my back. I had to go over the relevant people's heads to get into honors classes.

I was (and am) a smart person, and there was no good reason for my wishes to not be followed. I went on to become valedictorian of that school by a significant margin, dominated my schools extracurricular scene, got accepted to several prestigious universities, etc etc. The point of this is not to sing my praises. The point of this is to say that in this day and age, someone knew little about me and made ridiculous assumptions, and obviously I shattered those assumptions to pieces. Also, at some point, administrators in this school said something like, was I having difficulty transitioning to my new school system since my old system was so sh*tty and didn't even have computers? And I was like wtf are you talking about, my old school system had better computers than this one! Seriously, where do people get off saying this stuff?

Obviously, no one said, you can't take these classes because you are black and therefore obviously come from a crappy school and have no real intellect. But I can't think of any other justification for my school administrators' bizarre actions and bizarre assumptions about my background. All of which is to say, yes, racism still exists, and a less forceful person would have been denied important educational opportunities. And that's just kind of sickening.

 

[suwaifo]

Ok, let me make an effort to be more clear.

I transferred to a new school system as a high school student. I had excellent grades from my old system. Despite that, I was recommended not to go into honors classes. I insisted I wanted to go to honors classes anyway, but they signed me up for non honors classes behind my back. I had to go over the relevant people's heads to get into honors classes.

I was (and am) a smart person, and there was no good reason for my wishes to not be followed. I went on to become valedictorian of that school by a significant margin, dominated my schools extracurricular scene, got accepted to several prestigious universities, etc etc. The point of this is not to sing my praises. The point of this is to say that in this day and age, someone knew little about me and made ridiculous assumptions, and obviously I shattered those assumptions to pieces. Also, at some point, administrators in this school said something like, was I having difficulty transitioning to my new school system since my old system was so sh*tty and didn't even have computers? And I was like wtf are you talking about, my old school system had better computers than this one! Seriously, where do people get off saying this stuff?

Obviously, no one said, you can't take these classes because you are black and therefore obviously come from a crappy school and have no real intellect. But I can't think of any other justification for my school administrators' bizarre actions and bizarre assumptions about my background. All of which is to say, yes, racism still exists, and a less forceful person would have been denied important educational opportunities. And that's just kind of sickening.

That has jack to do with racism. That's not bizarre, that's pretty typical for high school counselors... What kind of high school did you transfer from, did you have a silver spoon in your mouth? My high school counselor didn't even bother giving me ANY class and left me with a gap. Come on, this isn't college. A gap in the middle of a high school day? "OMG this bizarreness must be racist."

"I had to go over the relevant people's heads to get into honors classes." This is expected of life, buster. It's not all sunshine and lollypops.

 

[scarletgirl777]

That has jack to do with racism. That's not bizarre, that's pretty typical for high school counselors... What kind of high school did you transfer from, did you have a silver spoon in your mouth? My high school counselor didn't even bother giving me ANY class and left me with a gap. Come on, this isn't college. A gap in the middle of a high school day? "OMG this bizarreness must be racist."

"I had to go over the relevant people's heads to get into honors classes." This is expected of life, buster. It's not all sunshine and lollypops.

It is bizarre! How can someone come in at the top of their class from their old school system with glowing recommendations and not be put into honors classes? In my school, honors classes were not some sacred thing. It would be like 15% of the school. And how can you tell me to my face that you've finally acquiesced and then behind my back just do what you want????? And I'm sorry, the fact that you also assumed that my old school system is backwards and devoid of technology just seals it for me. 🙄

EDIT: I don't understand what you mean by a gap. My school had a multi tier leveling system, the issue is that the counselors did not want to put me in the appropriate tier. It was not a case of not getting an elective or not fitting something in my schedule. It was a case of someone basically saying they didn't think I was good enough. I transferred at the beginning of a schoolyear, so there was no issue of capacity or anything and I hadn't missed any classes.

 

[suwaifo]

It is bizarre! How can someone come in at the top of their class from their old school system with glowing recommendations and not be put into honors classes? In my school, honors classes were not some sacred thing. It would be like 15% of the school. And how can you tell me to my face that you've finally acquiesced and then behind my back just do what you want????? And I'm sorry, the fact that you also assumed that my old school system is backwards and devoid of technology just seals it for me. 🙄

EDIT: I don't understand what you mean by a gap. My school had a multi tier leveling system, the issue is that the counselors did not want to put me in the appropriate tier. It was not a case of not getting an elective or not fitting something in my schedule. It was a case of someone basically saying they didn't think I was good enough. I transferred at the beginning of a schoolyear, so there was no issue of capacity or anything and I hadn't missed any classes.

I think that's more of a bureaucratic thing, the whole thing's always a mess.

Well, the whole gap thing is a little different than your situation in some ways, but at least they gave you a class (behind your back) to compensate for an honors class. Instead of working with me to find a fitting schedule, they put a hole in my schedule. This meant that everyday, I would have to spend an hour sitting around the school's campus wasting time in the middle of the school day. It's not that much time really, but is still a little irresponsible. So, uh, I guess you could add "gap" to your multi tier leveling system. It would be at the very bottom .

Anyways.... THE PAST IS THE PAST 😀. As you can tell, I hated my high school experience. I guess it had its moments though, low brass!!

 

[HolyGrail]

It is bizarre! How can someone come in at the top of their class from their old school system with glowing recommendations and not be put into honors classes? In my school, honors classes were not some sacred thing. It would be like 15% of the school. And how can you tell me to my face that you've finally acquiesced and then behind my back just do what you want????? And I'm sorry, the fact that you also assumed that my old school system is backwards and devoid of technology just seals it for me. 🙄

EDIT: I don't understand what you mean by a gap. My school had a multi tier leveling system, the issue is that the counselors did not want to put me in the appropriate tier. It was not a case of not getting an elective or not fitting something in my schedule. It was a case of someone basically saying they didn't think I was good enough. I transferred at the beginning of a schoolyear, so there was no issue of capacity or anything and I hadn't missed any classes.

This has also happened to me. I'm clearly very Scandinavian and white. Way to pull out the race card.

I also happen to lift weights, and upon meeting people, they believe, 99% of the time, that I have no intelligence whatsoever, that I watch Pumping Iron/Conan the Destroyer/Terminator II all day long, play football, and go to the gym.

Everyone must be ethnicist against bigger Scandinavian fellas... Or maybe you need to take some sort of initiative for yourself, and break a few loosely based stereotypes. Quit complaining so much, this clearly sounds like a case of 1) Apathy on the secretary's part 2) Maybe they were full and she didn't want to do paperwork 3) You might have come off as a really unintelligent person.

Newsflash: This happens to white people. We have to deal with the same douche bags you have to deal with. We have to work around problems as well. Nobody hands me jack-crap, I don't expect them to do that for anyone. Sounds like you have an attitude problem in the first place.

People always say "Take it easy", screw that, "Work hard".

 

[scarletgirl777]

This has also happened to me. I'm clearly very Scandinavian and white. Way to pull out the race card.

I also happen to lift weights, and upon meeting people, they believe, 99% of the time, that I have no intelligence whatsoever, that I watch Pumping Iron/Conan the Destroyer/Terminator II all day long, play football, and go to the gym.

Everyone must be ethnicist against bigger Scandinavian fellas... Or maybe you need to take some sort of initiative for yourself, and break a few loosely based stereotypes. Quit complaining so much, this clearly sounds like a case of 1) Apathy on the secretary's part 2) Maybe they were full and she didn't want to do paperwork 3) You might have come off as a really unintelligent person.

Newsflash: This happens to white people. We have to deal with the same douche bags you have to deal with. We have to work around problems as well. Nobody hands me jack-crap, I don't expect them to do that for anyone. Sounds like you have an attitude problem in the first place.

People always say "Take it easy", screw that, "Work hard".

This is not secretaries. These are guidance counselors. And like I specifically said they were not full because I transferred in the summer.

It doesn't matter how I come off. If I have straight As then I have straight As. I don't understand why there needs to be an assessment of my personal qualities to read a damn report card. And I don't understand why it's not racist to take a look at me and assume that I am a product of a crappy inner city school system.

But obviously, you're having difficulty grasping the point here, so I'm gonna move on.

 

[Raryn]

This is not secretaries. These are guidance counselors. And like I specifically said they were not full because I transferred in the summer.

It doesn't matter how I come off. If I have straight As then I have straight As. I don't understand why there needs to be an assessment of my personal qualities to read a damn report card. And I don't understand why it's not racist to take a look at me and assume that I am a product of a crappy inner city school system.

But obviously, you're having difficulty grasping the point here, so I'm gonna move on.

The guidance councilors in my local HSs are full of **** too. At a few in particular, they think that their school is the only good one. Or maybe they just want all new students to start out slow or something. Unless there was the same situation where a white student transferred in and they put him in all AP/honors classes (as in, you know, evidence of a double standard), I still say you don't have any proof.

In addition, this still isn't evidence supporting that poor black kids need help over and above the help available to poor white kids (who go to the same schools, are in the same situations, etc.).

 

[HurricaneKatt]

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/aug08/affaction.htm

Don't know if this has been posted but apparently these three states are going to soon decide whether to get rid of certain affirmative action policies in the admissions process (which I already thought were illegal, at least in the quota sense).

Being an African American I guess this policy would technically effect me moreso than others. But being a firm believer in choosing the best man for the job I honestly wouldn't mind them passing the thing.

You know, I have to be quite honest, it's really refreshing to hear someone say that. 🙂 While I am white, I am in no way racist; I have several friends of several different racial backgrounds. One of my all time closest friends actually is black. That said, I get really tired of reverse racism such as affirmative action and NAACP scholarships and such. If someone can get a scholarship for being black or Asian or native or anything else, why on earth can't others get a scholarship for being white? I think that affirmative action started with good intentions, but that it is not fair to EVERYONE. If someone is more qualified for the job, they should not be rejected simply because they have white skin and someone who is a "minority" is applying also, even though they may be less qualified. If the "minority" person is more qualified, then they should be hired of course. If the white person is more qualified, then they should be hired. We should hire people based on their qualifications, not their racial background.

 

[parto123]

In regard to class and wealth being linked to race- this is definitely the case, however it seems to play a very minor role in the black-white educational achievement gap.



From the “journal of blacks in higher education” here is some college board data (http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html):

But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board's 2005 data on the SAT:

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.

 

[Raryn]

In regard to class and wealth being linked to race- this is definitely the case, however it seems to play a very minor role in the black-white educational achievement gap.



From the "journal of blacks in higher education" here is some college board data (http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html):

Now to get the usual accusations out of the way: (these aren't expressly stated in the article, but I always laugh when someone brings up something along these lines)

Obviously the machines scoring the exams are racist. Yes, scantron readers are biased against African Americans.

That, and the math is culturally biased. Yes, algebra is biased against African Americans.

Or the verbal reasoning is culturally biased, despite decades of attempts to "fix" it. And with no examples of exactly HOW it is culturally biased within the last 20 years. (If anyone brings up the oarsman:regatta question from the late 80s, I'm going to strangle them).

(I'd also like to see some sort of evidence for the MCAT being culturally biased, which I've heard thrown around this forum a few times. Really, I thought organic chemistry was the same worldwide)

Now, if you believe any of the above 3 "arguments," there is no discussing with you. Otherwise, lets look at the actual reasons cited in this article.

Income: Same for poor white and black students

A major reason for the SAT racial gap appears to be the fact that black students who take the SAT have not followed the same academic track as white students. It is true that 97 percent of both blacks and whites who take the SAT have studied algebra in high school. But in higher level mathematics courses such as trigonometry and calculus, whites hold a large lead. In 2005, 47 percent of white SAT test takers had taken trigonometry in high school compared to 35 percent of black test takers. Some 28 percent of white test takers had taken calculus in high school. Only 14 percent of black students had taken calculus, one half as many as whites. Thirty-two percent of white SAT test takers had taken honors courses in mathematics compared to 19 percent of black SAT test takers.

Availability of higher level courses: Same for everyone in the same school (unless you have racist guidance councillors... *cough*). I'd say that the big difference is that African Americans are more likely to be poor as a result of historic factors and don't often go to the best schools (and since schools are funded by property taxes, wealth correlates directly to school quality).

Data from The College Board shows that 57 percent of white students who took the SAT were ranked in the top 20 percent of their high school classes. This compares to 37 percent of black test takers. Some 45 percent of white students who took the SAT report that their high school grade point average was in the A range. This compares to only 22 percent of black test takers. The mean high school grade point average for all white students who took the SAT was 3.37. For blacks the figures was 2.99. These figures alone explain a large portion of the racial scoring gap on the SAT.

This says African Americans are doing worse in school. Not evidence.

In many cases black schoolchildren are taught by white teachers who have low opinions of the abilities of black kids from the moment they enter the classroom. These teachers immediately write off black students as academic inferiors and do not challenge them sufficiently to achieve the skills necessary to perform well on standardized tests.

Evidence please? I'm not going to accept a claim that all (or most) teachers are racist sons of bitches. I know plenty of them, and people who are going to be teachers.

he late John Ogbu, professor of anthropology at Berkeley, believed that broad cultural attributes among blacks — such as parental style, commitment to learning, and work ethic — bear a heavy responsibility for the black-white educational gap. Ogbu wrote in his recent book, Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement, that black students in the affluent homes of doctors and lawyers are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models. Students talk the talk about what it takes to be a good student, Ogbu wrote, but few put forth the effort required to get good grades. This type of behavior is typical, Ogbu said, of racial minorities adapting to oppression and the lack of opportunity. Ogbu, much as Bill Cosby has done recently, also placed the blame on black parents. He believed that many black parents are not offering sufficient guidance, do not spend enough time helping with homework, and do not pay adequate attention to their children's educational progress. • Black students in predominantly white schools who study hard are often the subject of peer ridicule. They are accused of "acting white" by other blacks. This so-called ghetto chic in the form of peer pressure to shun academic pursuits undoubtedly has a dragging effect on average black SAT scores.
• Black students may be subject to what Stanford psychology professor Claude Steele calls "stereotype vulnerability." Steele contends that black students are aware of the fact that society expects them to perform poorly on standardized tests. This added pressure put upon black students to perform well in order to rebut the racial stereotype in fact makes it more difficult for them to perform well on these tests.
• Black students in some urban schools are taught an Afrocentric curriculum that may serve to increase black pride and foster an awareness of black culture, but this form of education pays little attention to the subject matters that are covered on the SAT.
• Even middle-class blacks tend to be brought up in basically segregated surroundings. They are not taught the pathways and modes of thinking that are embedded in white culture and reflected in standardized tests. Black families that urge their children to go to college are often first-generation college graduates who grew up in households without the systems that support first-rate academic achievement.

All arguments based in cultural differences. No discrimination causing African Americans to think that they shouldn't succeed. No one is holding them back except their parents and each other. Of course, one can spin this as saying that the tests are "culturally biased," but the way these are phrased, there is NO way to make a test that isn't "culturally biased." I still don't see an argument that affirmative action is a positive thing to help out people who don't have the will to succeed.

• School administrators and guidance counselors often believe that black students are less capable and less able to learn. They routinely track black students at an early age into vocational training or into a curriculum that is not college preparatory. Black students are rarely recommended for inclusion in gifted education, honors, or Advanced Placement programs. Once placed on the slow academic track, most black kids can never escape. By the time black students are juniors and seniors in high school, they are typically so far behind their white counterparts in the critical subject areas necessary to perform well on standardized tests that they have little hope of ever matching the scores of whites on the SAT.

Ah, we get to the final argument, racist guidance councilors. Its obviously a government conspiracy to keep the black man down. *nods*

 

[deleted74029]

I am so ready for this thread to die that I may just kill myself instead.

 

[flaahless]

Now to get the usual accusations out of the way: (these aren't expressly stated in the article, but I always laugh when someone brings up something along these lines)

(I'd also like to see some sort of evidence for the MCAT being culturally biased, which I've heard thrown around this forum a few times. Really, I thought organic chemistry was the same worldwide)

Now, if you believe any of the above 3 "arguments," there is no discussing with you. Otherwise, lets look at the actual reasons cited in this article.

Income: Same for poor white and black students

Availability of higher level courses: Same for everyone in the same school (unless you have racist guidance councillors... *cough*). I'd say that the big difference is that African Americans are more likely to be poor as a result of historic factors and don't often go to the best schools (and since schools are funded by property taxes, wealth correlates directly to school quality).

This says African Americans are doing worse in school. Not evidence.

Evidence please? I'm not going to accept a claim that all (or most) teachers are racist sons of bitches. I know plenty of them, and people who are going to be teachers.



All arguments based in cultural differences. No discrimination causing African Americans to think that they shouldn't succeed. No one is holding them back except their parents and each other. Of course, one can spin this as saying that the tests are "culturally biased," but the way these are phrased, there is NO way to make a test that isn't "culturally biased." I still don't see an argument that affirmative action is a positive thing to help out people who don't have the will to succeed.



Ah, we get to the final argument, racist guidance councilors. Its obviously a government conspiracy to keep the black man down. *nods*

Dude. Grow up.

 

[scarletgirl777]

The guidance councilors in my local HSs are full of **** too. At a few in particular, they think that their school is the only good one. Or maybe they just want all new students to start out slow or something. Unless there was the same situation where a white student transferred in and they put him in all AP/honors classes (as in, you know, evidence of a double standard), I still say you don't have any proof.

In addition, this still isn't evidence supporting that poor black kids need help over and above the help available to poor white kids (who go to the same schools, are in the same situations, etc.).

Maybe you're right. Maybe they assumed that every single new kid was the product of a crappy INNER CITY school system. I guess it's not TOTALLY outside the realm of possibility.

I will say though that going to the same school does NOT necessarily mean having the same opportunities. The Black kids in my school were disproportionately overrepresented in remedial classes. There were only 3 Black kids in honors classes in my entire grade. And there were no Hispanics in these classes to speak of. In fact, I specifically remember everyone in one of my honors classes getting really angry when this Hispanic girl sat in on our classes for like a month for her own edification. How dare she not know her place. Of course, again, it wasn't because she was Hispanic. It's because she wasn't that smart and didn't "deserve" to be there.