Anyone with a masters?

[cougar0215]

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I was just wondering if anyone chose to get their masters before going to vet school and if it helped your application. I have all kinds of experience (wildlife, vet hospital, research) but I do not have a competitive GPA...should I seriously consider this as an option? Thanks!

 

[tygris]

I was just wondering if anyone chose to get their masters before going to vet school and if it helped your application. I have all kinds of experience (wildlife, vet hospital, research) but I do not have a competitive GPA...should I seriously consider this as an option? Thanks!

My answer would be yes. I didn't have too strong of an undegrad GPA and I went for an M.S. in biology. I have a 4.0 in my graduate studies, and I believe that this helped my application very much. I'll be finishing my M.S. in June and starting vet school in August 😀
So I say go for it!

 

[kate_g]

I was just wondering if anyone chose to get their masters before going to vet school and if it helped your application.

Davis said their entering class of 2005 had 83/122 students with masters' degrees! As far as grad work bringing up your overall GPA, that will depend on whether the school calculates your GPA cumulative over undergrad and grad, or just looks at undergrad. If the latter is the case (as it is for most medical schools I think) then the only way to improve your undergrad GPA is to take post-bacc undergrad classes.

Anyway, it seems like some schools also look at the GPA for your last 45 credits of undergrad/grad work. This is presumably to allow you to show an upward trend if you screwed off freshman year. So if you can really kick ass in the grad classes it could make that number look really good (especially if your school has you take "research" credits to maintain full-time status, 'cause of course your advisor is going to give you an A).

 

[cougar0215]

how long did it take for you to finish your masters? did you have to take a year off? sorry for so many questions but I really appreciate the advice!

 

[tygris]

how long did it take for you to finish your masters? did you have to take a year off? sorry for so many questions but I really appreciate the advice!

I took two years "off," while continuing to apply to vet schools, if what you're implying is that getting an M.S. is time off... which, to be honest, is the fartest thing from the truth. 🙂 I didn't take off any time between undergrad and starting my M.S. It took me 3 tries to get in to vet school, so the timing worked out quite well actually. There are grad programs out there that only take 1 year, especially if you're doing an M.S. without a thesis. However, I think that my thesis research was a major factor in my getting offers because it seems like many schools are highly interested in those who do research nowadays. My research is in behavioral endocrinology in captive cheetahs - and Michigan has a pretty huge endocrinology lab.
Then again, Western doesn't seem too big on the research, and they gave me an offer as well - so who knows, sometimes it seems quite random.
I suggest you consider applying to the schools that are less all-or-nothing about undergrad grades. Michigan, Tufts, Colorado... I don't know which are the others... but those seem to be the schools that look at you as more of a "whole candidate" rather than a string of undergraduate science grades.

 

[keppsu1]

Anyway, it seems like some schools also look at the GPA for your last 45 credits of undergrad/grad work. This is presumably to allow you to show an upward trend if you screwed off freshman year. So if you can really kick ass in the grad classes it could make that number look really good (especially if your school has you take "research" credits to maintain full-time status, 'cause of course your advisor is going to give you an A).[/QUOTE]\\\

Research, thesis, and other related research courses are graded Pass/Fail at my school (and I would hope at others as well). I had to have 30 credits to graduate with my MS in Veterinary Pathology, and a little over half of them were graded classes.

 

[adenovirus]

Research, thesis, and other related research courses are graded Pass/Fail at my school (and I would hope at others as well). I had to have 30 credits to graduate with my MS in Veterinary Pathology, and a little over half of them were graded classes.

Yes my MS degree was the same. The focus was on the thesis work, but the first year had quite a lot of juggling classes and lab work (biochem, stats, vet. virology, biology of cancer, etc). I didn't 4 point my entire degree but the experience and knowledge I gained from the lab work are invaluable and I know the MS degree (and probably also the difficulty of the classes) contributed to me getting offers for vet school.

Good luck and I say go for the MS, especially if your cum. GPA is not higher than 3.3 or so.

 

[tygris]

Research, thesis, and other related research courses are graded Pass/Fail at my school (and I would hope at others as well). I had to have 30 credits to graduate with my MS in Veterinary Pathology, and a little over half of them were graded classes.

Same... P/F... Although I kind of wish they were for grades because I'm quite sure I would have gotten A's 😉 Though to be fair, I think they SHOULD be P/F, and only wish they were graded for my own personal gain
I had 30 credits for my M.S. in Biology, 12 of which were research credits, 18 course-work. Come to think of it, I also had to teach in order to get my tuition waiver (my school is ultra-lame about this... I think you should only have to teach if the school is giving you a stipend of some sort, but nooooo, we were threatened to have our tuition revoked if we didn't want to teach). I think teaching also looks great on the CV.

 

[kate_g]

Though to be fair, I think they SHOULD be P/F, and only wish they were graded for my own personal gain

Ours are graded, so there are programs out there that do it. I can't think of any good justifications against the morality of "should be P/F", except to say that grades matter *so* little in determining future success in academia that the standard is to make everyone look good on paper - in most research-focused programs even the actual classes are this way. So if you're planning in advance to apply professional school where grades matter, you can give yourself a little bit of an unfair advantage if you choose carefully. But again, this is a workable GPA-booster only if vet schools actually average ugrad and grad GPA.

I agree with the above that there seems to be a push toward "veterinary scientists" so even if you don't get the GPA boost, having (published) research experience might make you interesting enough to overcome a less-than-stellar GPA (but maybe not enough to overcome a truly awful GPA, seems like a lot of schools have minimum cutoffs). It will also show you're more mature, dedicated, worldly, blah, blah...

 

[legs1011]

I have a masters too, and I think it did help a lot with the admissions process. I took a "year off" to get a masters and only applied once. It helped me majorly because I did a lot of research which was published and that was the major advantage. The other major thing was that it gave me a bit more perspective, and the ability to verbalize my thoughts much better about animal issues and those "tough" quesitons they throw at you during interviews. BUT, I think that was due to the nature of my program, I did the Tufts Masters program in Animals and Public Policy, so all of those tough questions I had been tackling all year and it really made my interviews great. It also really helped me decide what I wanted to do as a vet and provided some direction and a bit of time to breathe before jumping right into vet school which is pretty rigorous. Not to say that the masters isn't, but its much more independent work and you can focus on what you want to.
Overall, I'd reccommend it highly. If I could do it all over again I'd do the same thing!

Ours are graded, so there are programs out there that do it. I can't think of any good justifications against the morality of "should be P/F", except to say that grades matter *so* little in determining future success in academia that the standard is to make everyone look good on paper - in most research-focused programs even the actual classes are this way. So if you're planning in advance to apply professional school where grades matter, you can give yourself a little bit of an unfair advantage if you choose carefully. But again, this is a workable GPA-booster only if vet schools actually average ugrad and grad GPA.

I agree with the above that there seems to be a push toward "veterinary scientists" so even if you don't get the GPA boost, having (published) research experience might make you interesting enough to overcome a less-than-stellar GPA (but maybe not enough to overcome a truly awful GPA, seems like a lot of schools have minimum cutoffs). It will also show you're more mature, dedicated, worldly, blah, blah...

 

[chickenboo]

Davis said their entering class of 2005 had 83/122 students with masters' degrees!

kate_g, where are you getting this statistic? I checked it against Davis' website, and they said 15/122 of the entering class of '05 had a masters degree. Just curious.

 

[adenovirus]

Wow! That's like 68 less MS students! I saw 83/122 MS students and nearly went through the roof in shock (but that would be cool)! I haven't seen that many MS students together in one place since my graduation day.

Ahhhh Yes, 15 makes much more sense, and is actually still high compared to other vet schools I've seen. MSU will have quite a few in its 2010 class I suspect, from what I've seen and heard.

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[kate_g]

kate_g, where are you getting this statistic? I checked it against Davis' website, and they said 15/122 of the entering class of '05 had a masters degree. Just curious.

That's what's in their brochure. But the two years before were 12 and 7 with master's, so 83 could easily be some kind of typo. Very odd typo, though, to put 38 bachelor's/83 master's when they meant 106 bachelor's/15 master's (as you found on their website). Maybe the real answer is somewhere in between. 🙂

 

[tygris]

kate_g, I think someone asked you this before, but what lab did/do you work in at Berkeley?

 

[snarf84]

I was just wondering if anyone chose to get their masters before going to vet school and if it helped your application. I have all kinds of experience (wildlife, vet hospital, research) but I do not have a competitive GPA...should I seriously consider this as an option? Thanks!

I will have completed my Master's in Biology by the end of the month and I advise you to contact the vet schools that you want to attend first. I was in my second year of the M.S. program before I found out that the vet schools that I was applying to did not weigh graduate courses any differently than undergrad. Most grad degrees are a lot of research and work, but not a lot of credits. So it doesn't really affect your gpa that much. I recommend going to community college and taking as many 100-level classes as you can take. They are MUCH cheaper and easier than graduate work.

 

[tygris]

I recommend going to community college and taking as many 100-level classes as you can take. They are MUCH cheaper and easier than graduate work.

I *totally* disagree with this. While I do agree that some schools don't weigh grad courses heavier than undergrad courses, and others don't weigh grad courses at all in their initial evaluations - that is a good reason to apply to OTHER schools. MOST schools will not be too impressed by community-college 100 level courses in ANY context. In fact, several of the schools I applied to don't even accept community college courses for grades at all (I couldn't fit biochem into my schedule when I was an undergrad so I was exploring options at taking it at a nearby school). When I was exploring options for making my transcripts look better to vet schools, the admissions counselors I spoke to unanimously said "it is better to take higher-level courses and do well in them than to re-take courses you did poorly in."
Not to mention the fact that the research is a huge component!
snarf84 is right to suggest that you contact each school individually and ask what they think, but I would not suggest doing the community college thing.

 

[snowyegret]

IMOST schools will not be too impressed by community-college 100 level courses in ANY context. In fact, several of the schools I applied to don't even accept community college courses for grades at all (I couldn't fit biochem into my schedule when I was an undergrad so I was exploring options at taking it at a nearby school). When I was exploring options for making my transcripts look better to vet schools, the admissions counselors I spoke to unanimously said "it is better to take higher-level courses and do well in them than to re-take courses you did poorly in."
Not to mention the fact that the research is a huge component!
snarf84 is right to suggest that you contact each school individually and ask what they think, but I would not suggest doing the community college thing.

I don't agree either with loading up on lower-division courses just because they might be easier and cheaper. Even though the grades are not weighted, I think adcoms will appreciate the fact that you can tackle upper division courses and give that some merit. But I don't necessarily agree either with the statement above that all community college courses are not worthwhile (BTW, tygris, what schools did you apply to that didn't take comm. coll. courses? The 10 I applied to had no problems with them...). Its important to look at the individual schools' requirements, but I found that lower division pre-reqs from a comm. coll. were fine; but courses that are supposed to be upper division (biochem, physio), which build upon the basic sciences, need to be taken at a four-year institution.

I guess it depends on your situation. I received my undergraduate degree in a non-life science field from a large four-year university back east, stayed there for my master's and then came to the left coast to do more graduate work at another large university. But when I decided to fufill the pre-req's for vet school, comm. coll. was the most affordable and accommodating to my work schedule. So I took bio, chem, and ochem all from the nearby comm. coll. and everything's worked out fine. What may be different about my situation is that I had somehow managed to take most of the upper division courses (biochem, dev. bio., physiology) at four-year universities before taking lower division bio and chem (it's a very long story).

Regardless, community college courses, I think, are just fine for the most basic courses. But, as your schooling progresses, its important to show that you can handle the upper division/graduate courses as you mature in your educational experience. Going back to take 100-level courses just based on cost and ease won't show much.

 

[tygris]

(BTW, tygris, what schools did you apply to that didn't take comm. coll. courses? The 10 I applied to had no problems with them...).

Well I guess I should first clarify that when I was speaking about community college courses, I was only speaking to them in the context of this thread... the original poster said his/her cumulative GPA is not competitive, and asked whether he/she should pursue grad work. I assume, then, that he/she has finished the prerequs. Based on THAT assumption, I still would not recommend doing the community college route.
That said, I have nothing against taking CC courses to fulfill prerequs 🙂
Unfortunately, some schools do! To answer your question, Cornell was the big one that said "No 2-year college courses will be accepted." I believe Kansas or Purdue may have said the same, but my memory failes me because I asked two years ago.

 

[Apollo84]

To answer your question, Cornell was the big one that said "No 2-year college courses will be accepted." I believe Kansas or Purdue may have said the same, but my memory failes me because I asked two years ago.

Really? If so, that's a little unfair to us poor folks who went to community college and then transferred to a four-year college.

 

[HorseyVet]

Really? If so, that's a little unfair to us poor folks who went to community college and then transferred to a four-year college.

I would check if the "2-year school" was a branch of the 4-year....In my area there are a lot of branch schools that are cheaper and which filter into a main campus....Some students specifically take the majority of their courses (like gen eds) at the branch b/c then they can go to school for the cheaper rate. Being frugal is a good thing IMO....I think if this is your situation and you explain it you may be ok.

 

[kate_g]

kate_g, I think someone asked you this before, but what lab did/do you work in at Berkeley?

I was going to avoid going off-topic... But it seemed like this was worth saying? The short answer is I'm not going to say. I do research that involves animals in Berkeley, California. You can do the sociopolitical reasoning and come up with what kind of environment that leads to. I know profs whose houses and cars have been attacked and vandalized, their children threatened...

Anyway, here's the thing that seemed worth saying to everyone. One thing that I find disturbing about the veterinary field is how many people claim to be very into veterinary medicine and very against animal research. I take my cats to a practice with several vets, most of whom have done research and one who's even written a couple of books. And on the bulletin board in the lobby is a "stop animal research now!" flyer put up by some client or staff member. Working in a shelter I found a lot of the employees there were totally in favor of getting new treamemt technologies and vehemently against animal research in principle. It seems to be more common among younger people who haven't had to face the reality of how medical knowledge is acquired. And this is a forum populated by quite a lot of compassionate animal-loving young people just getting into the veterinary field. So... That's a really long answer, and it makes me sound like a wuss or a jerk, but that's the way it is. I just wanted to put it out there because every one of us is probably going to have to deal with this kind of person at some point. Clearly this is why so many interviews include the "how do you feel about research/animal rights" type questions.

As a final note, it's a general concern of mine and not a reaction to any particular person, so please don't be mad or think I'm classifying *you* as a starry-eyed neophyte. I'm sure *you* are perfectly safe, it's *them* I'm worried about. 🙂

 

[julieDVM]

I was going to avoid going off-topic... But it seemed like this was worth saying? The short answer is I'm not going to say. I do research that involves animals in Berkeley, California. You can do the sociopolitical reasoning and come up with what kind of environment that leads to. I know profs whose houses and cars have been attacked and vandalized, their children threatened...

Anyway, here's the thing that seemed worth saying to everyone. One thing that I find disturbing about the veterinary field is how many people claim to be very into veterinary medicine and very against animal research. I take my cats to a practice with several vets, most of whom have done research and one who's even written a couple of books. And on the bulletin board in the lobby is a "stop animal research now!" flyer put up by some client or staff member. Working in a shelter I found a lot of the employees there were totally in favor of getting new treamemt technologies and vehemently against animal research in principle. It seems to be more common among younger people who haven't had to face the reality of how medical knowledge is acquired. And this is a forum populated by quite a lot of compassionate animal-loving young people just getting into the veterinary field. So... That's a really long answer, and it makes me sound like a wuss or a jerk, but that's the way it is. I just wanted to put it out there because every one of us is probably going to have to deal with this kind of person at some point. Clearly this is why so many interviews include the "how do you feel about research/animal rights" type questions.

As a final note, it's a general concern of mine and not a reaction to any particular person, so please don't be mad or think I'm classifying *you* as a starry-eyed neophyte. I'm sure *you* are perfectly safe, it's *them* I'm worried about. 🙂

I whole heartedly agree with your post. Many people do not like to acknowledge that almost all of our current practices in human medicine, have been practiced on animals in some shape or form... And although many people disagree with it, I do not. I strongly feel that techniques, drugs and procedures should be perfected on a mammalian model before it is performed on humans. I'm not devaluing the lives of our patients, but quite frankly, I don't want a doctor performing a procedure or using a drug on one of my kids that hasn't been tested and proven effective in an animal model first... Although I'm not interested in doing the research myself, my hat goes off to all those individuals that work tirelessly on clinical trials, grass roots research, cellular research etc. I firmly believe that their efforts enable me to employ the treatments that cure my patients, and simply put: the research has to be done.

 

[PAThbrd]

Yeah for people who understand this necessity! I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[PerfectBrak]

That said, I have nothing against taking CC courses to fulfill prerequs 🙂
Unfortunately, some schools do! To answer your question, Cornell was the big one that said "No 2-year college courses will be accepted." I believe Kansas or Purdue may have said the same, but my memory failes me because I asked two years ago.

I got a different answer from Cornell. I emailed them to see if I could take an English prereq at a community college to save money, and they said it was ok.

-James

 

[kate_g]

I got a different answer from Cornell. I emailed them to see if I could take an English prereq at a community college to save money, and they said it was ok.

This may be the difference between science and non-science prereqs. Some of the schools seem to go out of their way to specify how little they care about the quality of the non-science prereqs as long as you have *something* on your transcript that qualifies. To add to the confusion, I think some schools will take CC credit even for science prereqs *if* you started out in CC and then transferred to a 4-year program. I guess they figure, if your CC credits were accepted as equivalent by your 4-year program, then they're good enough for vet school.

 

[cougar0215]

Well I guess I should first clarify that when I was speaking about community college courses, I was only speaking to them in the context of this thread... the original poster said his/her cumulative GPA is not competitive, and asked whether he/she should pursue grad work. I assume, then, that he/she has finished the prerequs. Based on THAT assumption, I still would not recommend doing the community college route.
That said, I have nothing against taking CC courses to fulfill prerequs 🙂
Unfortunately, some schools do! To answer your question, Cornell was the big one that said "No 2-year college courses will be accepted." I believe Kansas or Purdue may have said the same, but my memory failes me because I asked two years ago.

Thank you for that...I am graduating from my undergraduate institution this Friday with my biology degree and I was inquiring about a masters to help my application. I want to thank previous posts stating that being able to handle graduate work would help considering my low undergraduate GPA. I have spoke to some schools and the GPA is counted separate from undergrad, but if it is high that still counts for something considereing the course work is assumed to be more difficult.

On another note about the CC courses...my university does not allow the last 45 credit hours to come from a community college or my main core courses for my biology degree.

Thanks again to everyone who gave advice. Now I just have to figure what I want to do! 🙂

 

[tygris]

This may be the difference between science and non-science prereqs. Some of the schools seem to go out of their way to specify how little they care about the quality of the non-science prereqs as long as you have *something* on your transcript that qualifies. To add to the confusion, I think some schools will take CC credit even for science prereqs *if* you started out in CC and then transferred to a 4-year program. I guess they figure, if your CC credits were accepted as equivalent by your 4-year program, then they're good enough for vet school.

Yes, when I spoke to Cornell it was about Biochem and I believe O-Chem... maybe O-Chem lab... something along those lines. Definitely science courses.

Thank you for that...I am graduating from my undergraduate institution this Friday with my biology degree and I was inquiring about a masters to help my application. I want to thank previous posts stating that being able to handle graduate work would help considering my low undergraduate GPA. I have spoke to some schools and the GPA is counted separate from undergrad, but if it is high that still counts for something considereing the course work is assumed to be more difficult.

Well, glad to have been of help, good luck with everything! 🙂

 

[mokadet]

For those of you who did grad work before vet school...

I'm applying to take a few graduate courses. It's a program where you are not in a degree program but it's pretty easy to switch to one later (which I might do if it doesn't work out again next year). I have to fill out basically a normal grad application. The question I'm struggling with is "why do you want to undertake graduate work?" Is it kosher to say that I want to prove to vet schools that I can be competative? Or should I play up the M.S. degree and what that could do for me by itself? If I'm going to be honest I would say that I'm only doing this to get in to vet school, however, I have been known to be TOO honest sometimes.

Any ideas/advice/experience?

 

[ReinaDeLuz]

For those of you who did grad work before vet school...

I'm applying to take a few graduate courses. It's a program where you are not in a degree program but it's pretty easy to switch to one later (which I might do if it doesn't work out again next year). I have to fill out basically a normal grad application. The question I'm struggling with is "why do you want to undertake graduate work?" Is it kosher to say that I want to prove to vet schools that I can be competative? Or should I play up the M.S. degree and what that could do for me by itself? If I'm going to be honest I would say that I'm only doing this to get in to vet school, however, I have been know to be TOO honest sometimes.

Any ideas/advice/experience?

somehow i dont think any masters program would take too kindly someone applying "only" to make themselves look better for vet school. even though we all *know* that thats often what happens, i think you should answer the question without taking the vet school thing into consideration. focus on everything you'll get out of the masters program itself. this is just my gut instinct, i don't really know so take this with a grain of salt 🙂 maybe you could talk to an advisor about it?

 

[kate_g]

somehow i dont think any masters program would take too kindly someone applying "only" to make themselves look better for vet school.

I agree. I also think you can answer the question with less brutal honesty but without actually lying. You want to take graduate classes to expand on your undergraduate studies - by exploring some new subjects that you hadn't taken as an undergrad, or by getting more in-depth knowledge about subjects you particularly enjoyed (pick whichever is true). If this is a non-degree program then they're not expecting students who are planning to make a career as an academic scientist, so you don't need to spin your story *that* hard. They're expecting people taking one or two classes for job-related advancement, which is exactly what you're doing. You didn't say what kind of classes you want to take, but if you're taking science classes then you say that as an undergrad you got a good foundation in science but expect a focused graduate education to be a useful stepping-stone for career advancement. If you're going to take non-science classes in order to look well-rounded, then say you focused on a single career path as an undergrad and expect a graduate education to make you a more versatile candidate in the job market.

Just think a little more broadly about your motivations - they're probably not actually that different from most people applying to that program. (I would avoid pretending that you have a strong interest in getting the M.S. degree if you really just want to take a few classes through the non-degree program, because you're likely to sound insincere and you'll also have to justify why you didn't apply directly to the M.S. program.)