Anything as challenging/rigorous as an MD?

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Good comments.

I think we've all lost the point of the original questions. I think there certainly are degrees/programs that are more challenging or more rigorous than an MD. A DDS/DMD might be one of these, depending on the school. Certainly an MD/PhD would be a more rigorous tract. Various physics programs or physical chemistry programs would probably be more rigorous.

Secondly, somebody drew a lateral argument that dentistry was NOT equal to medicine. I fully agree! My point in that side argument was simply that not all MDs are created equal. To say you'd like to have an MD present in a medical emergency probably won't suffice. It depends, of course, on the type of medical emergency.

Back to the original subject...
 
Originally posted by ItsGavinC
To say you'd like to have an MD present in a medical emergency probably won't suffice.
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I don't see why not. Someone with a medical degree (MD or DO) has had a surgery rotation, a medicine rotation, etc - they have been exposed to and participated in codes and traumas and the like (those who do sub-I's in medicine or surgery would have even more experience with codes and traumas). Do dental students even SEE codes? Trauma? How often does a dentist need to administer epi/CPR/etc during a respiratory failure? Would a dentist know what to even THINK ABOUT to treat someone with an acute MI? Yes, I'd most definitely rather have someone working on me in an emergency situation who has spent significant time in an OR or a medicine ward versus someone who has never experienced it.

Look, dentists are smart, competent people. I love my dentist and am highly impressed by her knowledge base and technical capabilities. Still, I wouldn't want her doing ANYTHING outside of the realm of my head. Just having taken physiology and biochem does not make you equivalent in terms of experience - recognizing the disease does not mean you can treat it. I see where you're coming on this, you're just taking it a few steps too far.

By the way, in reference to your earlier post about pathology - general path is quite different from systems path. Most dental programs seem to cover general path (about six to eight weeks worth) which comprises inflammation, neoplasia, etc and that's it. Systems path is a yearlong (or more) course that lays the foundation for diagnosis - it applies general path to each organ system. I still contend that this is the major difference in the curriculum in the first two years.
 
That's fine and wonderful. To think, however, that a MD who rotated through trauma 20 years ago would remember everything if he/she doesn't encounter it on a daily, weekly, or even yearly basis, is ridiculous.

Are you literally saying that a psychiatrist knows how to handle an MI just as well as an EM doc? A FP has the same expertise as a surgeon?

I KNOW you guys rotate and have wonderful experiences, but you also specialize. After 20 years of practicing I think the real diagnostic skills you utilize are firmly engrained into your brain, and a good chunk of what you learned in med school, or rotated through, is lost.

I would agree with your "path" comment, however that doesn't mean that the curriculum isn't as challenging.
 
JKDMed: You're absolutely right that Dentistry makes you laugh! You're such a horrible patient, your Dentist probably have to submit you under Nitrous.

eddieberetta: you say that "dentists are the NPs of Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery"? I'm sorry, I don't recall the last time a General dentist even associated themselves with an Otolaryngologist. If anything is referred out in the H&N areas, it would be with an Oral & Maxillofacial Surgeons (which a lot of them are M.D.s). ENTs, OMSs, and Otos share a lot of procedures together and any of them will tell you that. NPs? General dentist don't take any orders from any body like NPs?

Listen you M.D. students, Pre-M.D. students, and/or D.O related students, whether you think your curriculum is more challenging or not than other Health Professional programs out there, you won't be doing their jobs so who cares?!

If one really wants to do well in any particular course, curriculum, program, and/or national board exam, they will because they're dedicated and determined to. Some dental schools do share the same curriculum with medical schools the first two years like UConn and Harvard. What's more challenging and what's not?! C'mon....

You can mock or condescend dentistry all you want, but you're still going to come to us for our services. Unless you don't care about having health teeth, gingiva, and/or smiling esthetics, then we can careless because we'll have millions of others that do care about their smile and how their teeth look.

MacGyver: When you say "a tooth fracture is not a medical emergency", of course it's easy to say that now, but how would you feel if it's your tooth one day that is causing you a lot of pain where you can't eat, drink, and/or even talk? I bet it would an emergency then, wouldn't it?

One last thing fellas, ladies LOVES straight white teeth!! You can be an awesome surgeon making $500K+/year and drive that nice $450K car, but if you have fu@ked up yellow teeth, you will be denied!

Every OMS/MD resident that I have spoken to have always confirmed that the last two years of medical school (rotations) are way much easier than the last two years of dentsl school curriculum. [NOTE: OMS/MD residents have to complete the last two years of medical school curriculum and take the USMLE Step I, II, and III].
 
Ok, this thread is starting to annoy me. I don't think the OP intended this to become a dentistry vs medicine thread. So let's quit comparing the two before this turns even uglier than it is about to.

Or I shall use my powers as moderator to close this baby...😛
 
I actually never thought my thread would get more than a few responses...

I was unaware that this was such a touchy subject when discussing/comparing doctoral programs...

I think the two things I learned from this thread is that everyone thinks their program is difficult, and that you won't be able to convince anyone else that is true if they are in a different program 😀
 
Originally posted by InfiniteUni
I actually never thought my thread would get more than a few responses...

I was unaware that this was such a touchy subject when discussing/comparing doctoral programs...

I think the two things I learned from this thread is that everyone thinks their program is difficult, and that you won't be able to convince anyone else that is true if they are in a different program 😀
Click to expand...

I TOTALLY agree! :laugh:
 
Originally posted by Yah-E
Listen you M.D. students, Pre-M.D. students, and/or D.O related students, whether you think your curriculum is more challenging or not than other Health Professional programs out there, you won't be doing their jobs so who cares?!
Click to expand...
I'm quite sure this thread was meant to address more than just other health professions. It also certainly wasn't meant to be an attack on anyone. Chill.
 
Originally posted by InfiniteUni
I actually never thought my thread would get more than a few responses...

I was unaware that this was such a touchy subject when discussing/comparing doctoral programs...

I think the two things I learned from this thread is that everyone thinks their program is difficult, and that you won't be able to convince anyone else that is true if they are in a different program 😀
Click to expand...

You're 100% correct. It seems medical students are a little touchy about ANYTHING else coming close to their programs. That's what I've discovered.
 
...or maybe nobody has a sense of humor. Cmon guys relax. Some comments were obviously meant as jokes but taken so seriously here. To be honest I doubt any MDs actually care whether other professionals think they go through or indeed endure more rigorous training than MDs do. We just do our job like any body else.

And rigorous is so subjective anyway. The marines are rigorous, as are PHds in pure math.

Cheers
 
Originally posted by eddieberetta
To be honest I doubt any MDs actually care whether other professionals think they go through or indeed endure more rigorous training than MDs do. We just do our job like any body else.
Click to expand...
As much as I would love to believe this, I think there really are MDs who care about just that. 🙄
 
If I, as an uninformed observer, may point out, some med/dent schools do give MD degrees to dentists in certain specialties after completion of a determined length of training. I don't believe that the schools award DMD/DDS to MDs...

dc
 
Yes, Oral Surgery is the specialty you are referring to.

Dentists who enter an MD OMS program take the last two years of medical school, and then begin a general surgery resiency, followed by an OMS fellowship.

This is one specialty where the practitioner may have an MD behind his name, but only if he/she received the DDS/DMD degree first.
 
In Austria where I'm studying, medicine is also regarded as one of the most challenging studies because of the huge amount of information you have to memorize in a limited time.

BTW, it was interesting for me to see that this discussion board is quite similar to the discussion board of students at the University of Vienna - http://www.med-forum.org/. This makes me feel like at home. 🙂
 
While med school is like boot camp, PhD programs are like existing in a sensory deprivation chamber. At least from my experience, in PhD programs you don't have to master any material, but you must somehow transform yourself into a person capable of not only of soaking up knowledge, but of CREATING it as well. Very disconcerting especially when the only bits of knowledge you can trust in the peer reviewed journals are...uh...trivial.

Program director at orientation said one thing that stuck "tolerate ambiguity."
No wonder so many people dropped out & went to med school. PhD programs are torture of a different sort.

cleo
 
Whenever you guys decide on which is the most rigorous, I'd like to add that almost nothing on the planet is harder than completing a residency in surgery, where working 120hrs/week is not uncommon.
 
I'm just a random fool who had to throw in my two cents, and I've never done any graduate program at all yet. But I think there's something ridiculous about the degree to which theoretical physicists are worshipped. The simple truth is, despite the years of gruelling mathematics and whatnot, a physicist can have a long and successful career and never accomplish anything. Even the Great Stephen Hawking has really contributed very little in terms of practical applied science. His claim to fame, he says, was a report done with Roger Penrose that suggested that the BiG Bang was a necessary event, based on a mathematical extrapolation of the theory of general realtivity. However, since there are disagreements between relativity and quantum mechanics which have not been hammered out, there's no way to be certain that reconciling the two theories won't require changing the theories in some way which invalidates Hawking's findings. At the risk of making a few hundred thousand enemies, I think that theoretical physics is difficult because everyone who wanted to be the next Einstein jumped into the field, and most of them just lacked the creativity to realize that the next Einstein will probably emerge from molecular biology or biochem.

The real difficulty comes from having to make important decisions with real ramifications based on limited information time and time again. If you want to look for something difficult to compare medicine to, being a firefighter, astronaut, Navy SEAL, fighter pilot, or a Ph.D. in engineering science. Any of these are far greater of a challenge.
 
MSTP (MD/PhD) > MD

And Im an MD hopeful. MSTPers dont have a full PhD really, but its still more than what most MDs have.
 
Listen, I work hand in hand with dental residents...sorry guys but their residency is more cush than a Lay-Z-Boy, getting a dentist to respond to a phone call is like "pulling teeth" forgive the pun. I have alot of respect for dentists in their specialty, but their training is similar but not at ALL like ours...nothing zero zilch. Just ask them! Sure they learn similar things in year 1, but then year 2 is far far far different, and only more and more different from that point on. By the time residency comes around, it is apples and oranges...it really is. I have dental residents follow me in the ER. They don't pretend to know medicine, I don't pretend to know much dentistry.
Maxillo-facial surgeons go through a plastics residency and therefore speaking to them on the phone is exactly like any other surgeon (except they are much nicer and not typically dinguses). But general dentistry loses all similarity to medicine by the end of their first academic year...and vice versa.
 
Originally posted by Gleevec
MSTPers dont have a full PhD really, but its still more than what most MDs have.
Click to expand...

Thats absolute crap. There is no difference between the PhDs that MD/PhDs get compared to straight PhD grads. The PhD program sets the same requirements for MD/PhDs as they do for the regular PhD students. There is no special PhD track specifically for dual degree students.

I challenge you to present evidence otherwise. And NO, made up anecdotes about what some disgruntled PhD scientist said 5 years ago doesnt count.
 
Originally posted by Gleevec
MSTP (MD/PhD) > MD

MSTPers dont have a full PhD really, but its still more than what most MDs have.
Click to expand...

Then what is it really? Why do non MD/PhD folks harbor so much hate? Or is it professional jealosy?:laugh:
 
Originally posted by leo54
Additionally, the MCAT is by far the most challenging admissions test out there.
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I don't know about that. Subject-specific GRE exams are next to impossible for most people. I give props to most people in Ph.D. programs as well.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
Thats absolute crap. There is no difference between the PhDs that MD/PhDs get compared to straight PhD grads. The PhD program sets the same requirements for MD/PhDs as they do for the regular PhD students. There is no special PhD track specifically for dual degree students.

I challenge you to present evidence otherwise. And NO, made up anecdotes about what some disgruntled PhD scientist said 5 years ago doesnt count.
Click to expand...

I think there's usually greater pressure on PIs not to hold back mudphud candidates any longer than necessary. But this is strictly anecdotal, and I don't know of any hard data on this.
 
Originally posted by Barry Otter
I don't know about that. Subject-specific GRE exams are next to impossible for most people. I give props to most people in Ph.D. programs as well.
Click to expand...


Having taken both the MCAT and the GRE subject area exam in Biochem, I would whole-heartedly agree. I scored in the 99.9th percentile for the MCAT, but only the 73rd for the GRE🙁
 
Going back to the topic at hand ... convincing a girl to sleep with you when you're rumored to have herpes may be more difficult than getting through med school.

At least you can study for med school.
 
Just conjecture, I swear ... I wouldn't know.
 
So your implication is that MIT just lets MD/PhDs walk thru their labs and doesnt hold their dissertations up to the same scrutiny that PHDs get?

Wow that really says a lot about their program and I understand now why their MD/PhD program was almost put on probation by the NIH.

I guarantee you though that what they are doing (if in fact your implication is true) thats not the norm at MD/PhD programs
 
flindophile, 3 years is about how long the md/phds take to finish their phd at my school as well. Even with the 2 preclinical years added in, it's still shy of the typical 6-7 years it generally takes to get a PhD in biochemistry or biology.

I find this thread kind of silly. Medicine is resolutely not the most intellectually demanding discipline, although some specialties and areas of research may be. I'd say mathematics and physics, or even economics, the poor man's math, require greater intellectual resource.

Nor is medicine the most physically demanding. Compared to what special forces or even regular grunts go through, medicine doesn't stand out at all.

What I do love about medical school, however, is the comprehensive education and the flexibility of career choice. I can't readily think of any other graduate program that runs the gamut from hard science to clinical skills to epidemiology to policy. What the undergraduate medical education lacks in depth, I think it makes up for it in breadth. Sometimes it feels overwhelming, but I can't think of anything else I'd rather do with my life.

Maybe except pimpin'.
 
Lets take 100 random PhDs and 100 random MD/PhDs.

Now, lets wipe the titles off the names, have 10 critical experts read the dissertations, and predict whether it was done by an MD/PhD or a straight PhD.

My claim is that the experts wouldnt be able to tell the difference.

You guys make it sound like the MD/PhDs dont have to complete the same requirements that the PhDs do. Thats absolutely false. They have to do exactly teh same stuff--same course requirements, same TA requirements, same lab rotation requirements, same qualifying exam requirements, same thesis research requirements, same dissertation requirements, same dissertation defense requirements, and the same scrutiny.

The PHD councils/committees that control whether someone graduates or not dont have a separate track for MD/PhDs, they expose them to the same scrutiny that the regular PhDs get. Any program which does NOT do that is suspect.

I suspect whats really happening here is that you dont need a full 6 or 7 years to earn a PHD. There's a substantial amount of work done by straight PhDs just because the lab advisor wants them to hang around longer to help with cheap labor. Its much harder to convince MD/PHDs to do this.

There's an analogy to anesthesiology here. CRNAs dont get NEARLY the same training as MDAs, yet studies show that for routine surgeries they are just as capable. It turns out that the extra training that MDAs get is only valuable in rare circumstances or extremely risky surgeries. The bread and butter surgeries can be handled by a CRNA just as well as an MDA. My point is that time of training does NOT necessarily translate into different working environments.

By the way, MD/PhDs outperform straight PHDs in NIH grant support, time to publication, avg # of pubs, and impact rating of pubs. If the PHD aspect of MD/PhD training is subpar, how do you explain those facts?
 
Our dean told us that med students are no smarter than those students in law school, dental school, or many other graduate programs. What separates med school from other graduate programs, though, is the average length of training required to be a fully licensed practioner of the trade. Our length of training is exceeded only by astronauts.
 
flindophile, I think the basic science portion of med school is regarded as a rough equivalent of the first year or two of a PhD program in bio. In American graduate programs, students seldom dive into their PhD dissertation. They're expected to rotate through labs and acquire a broad grasp of biology.

MacGyver, I think you're looking for arguments where there is none. No one's argued that Md/PhDs are less qualified as researchers. As for NIH funding, that's a diffuse issue. It may or may not have to do with higher quality of research by mudphuds, or it may or may not have something to do with the cachet of having an MD/PhD title after your name.
 
I may have ya beat here...

I am doing a 4-year DO/MBA Program at UHS-COM. We do the full curriculum for the DO degree plus a 51 credit hour MBA in Health Care Leadership. We do MBA classes the summer after MSI and MSII and during the fall of our MSIII year. During 4th year we do not get a vacation month, but must do an elective to graduate on time. Moreover, we do a research project during MSIII and MSIV which will be published in a Health Care Journal. It is very, very rigorous, but will be worth it in the longrun. But, no matter what happens in life, as long as you choose the path that makes you happy, that is all that matters, hey! Have fun all!

Later,

Normalforce
 
Hey idiot:

1) In undergrad, my friends who got low 20s on mcat and below 3.5 cannot get into med school so they apply dental or graduate school. behold, they get into ucla or upenn or columbia dental. do you know what scores you need to get into ucla/upenn/columbia med?? My bonehead friends get into top dental/grad schools, and my smart friends have a hard time getting into ANY med school. The competition to get into dental and med school are completely different.

2) I have a friend dental student who takes ALL classes with med students during first 2 years, plus more dental classes. In EVERY single class, this guy (and almost all of his respective dental peers) is BARELY passing, no where near class average. The institution lowered the passing level just for the dental students to PASS. You take these same students and make them take the medical USMLE 1, I doubt they will do well at all, if they are lucky to pass this exam.

3) My high school teacher got a chemistry PhD from UC Berkeley. He did his degree in 10 years, working part-time! As "much" as they have to learn, they have all the time in the world to do it, without worrying about competition of postdoc/jobs. Med students have the pressure of studying hard to obtain a decent residency position.

Imagine you going thru undergrad and med with your friends partying and getting accepted to dental school/grad, then they dont have to worry about all the competition to get into top residency, and they come back and talk all this trash about how much harder dental/grad is. Give me a freakin break.


Originally posted by ItsGavinC
You're 100% correct. It seems medical students are a little touchy about ANYTHING else coming close to their programs. That's what I've discovered.
Click to expand...
 
To add, I dont care or act conceited around other ppl, dentists, grad students, pharm students, etc. I dont talk trash or look down on them or anything. But when they breeze through their undergrad/career and they start waving guns around talking trash about how much harder their curriculum is than med, then hell yeah i get touchy.
 
I find it truly amazing how many significant deviations people made from my original post in order to express some personal gripe they have about one thing or another...

I also can't believe people are still posting replies to this thing...

*Holds thread down and puts it out of its misery* +pissed+

[End of Thread] :laugh:
 
"Our length of training is exceeded only by astronauts."

But if im a doc i still get to see ur anus 😀
 
Did anyone try electrical engineering?

I did an undergrad in that and it was such a relief to study organic chemistry and cellular biology *phew*

I'm looking forward to dental school.

ULTRON
 
profunda,

1) Thanks for reviving a dead thread to throw slander around the forum.

2) I find it amazing that you think your friends are somehow typical, or that your one or two dental friends somehow represent the entire body of dental students in the country.

3) Plenty of medical students are idiots (thanks for calling me one, by the way. Very cordial of you).

4) Thanks for quoting me in your thread and then proceeding to prove my point.

5) This thread should be closed.
 
2) my friends are not "typical." they are ucla, upenn, harvard, columbia, boston u dental students. they represent the best dental students in the country, not some no name arizona state dental school. i never said they are idiots. i said their gpa and mcat scores are lower than my friends who cant even get into any medical school.

my point was, just because they take the same/similar classes as med students, doesnt mean they are doing just as well or putting as much effort or just as smart as med students. you are delusional if you think a majority of dental students are smarter and their "curriculum is harder" than medical school.

Originally posted by ItsGavinC
profunda,

1) Thanks for reviving a dead thread to throw slander around the forum.

2) I find it amazing that you think your friends are somehow typical, or that your one or two dental friends somehow represent the entire body of dental students in the country.

3) Plenty of medical students are idiots (thanks for calling me one, by the way. Very cordial of you).

4) Thanks for quoting me in your thread and then proceeding to prove my point.

5) This thread should be closed.
Click to expand...
 
"Wise men speak when they have something to say. Fools speak when they have to say something."

Originally posted by aphistis
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Just keep spotlighting that ignorance, pal. You're making everybody else look better and better by the moment.
Click to expand...
 
Dentists are the biggest joke in the history of healthcare. I still dont understand why someone needs 8 years of education to put a filling in my tooth. All you really need is a 2-4 year program where you learn to take care of the teeth. When do dentists actually do work like doctors do? Most of them cant even put my filling in right. Dentists are the biggest quacks to ever be licensed. I have more respect for chiropractors than dentists.
 
Then, given the volume of knowledge you've just displayed toward the profession, you and profunda should get along just fine. Your personal experience does not a reliable generalization make...and besides, how many thousands of chronic patients complain continually about physicians' complete inability to effectively treat them? Plenty.
 
Originally posted by DrArsenic
Dentists are the biggest joke in the history of healthcare. I still dont understand why someone needs 8 years of education to put a filling in my tooth.
Click to expand...
As soon as you got to "I still don't understand," you should've been clued that you should do some research before getting too carried away in your opinions.
All you really need is a 2-4 year program where you learn to take care of the teeth.
Click to expand...
You could get away with the same in any given medical specialty. Cut out all the extra material that doesn't apply, and streamline the whole process. How many times do <em>you</em> expect to be asked about the sodium/glucose symporters in somatic cells? Probably none, perhaps some, but you have to be prepared anyway.
When do dentists actually do work like doctors do?
Click to expand...
I'd pose the question in reverse; surgeons excepted, when do physicians <em>do</em> work like dentists?
Most of them cant even put my filling in right. Dentists are the biggest quacks to ever be licensed. I have more respect for chiropractors than dentists. [/B]
Click to expand...
See my previous post.
 
One more thing I should probably emphasize here, before the ad hominems get too crass, is that I'm not interested in picking fights. Y'all MD's-in-progress can think what you want about other health professions; my only beef is with people who propagate ignorant stereotypes like they're <em>NEJM</em> data. I personally hold physicians in plenty of esteem; I just wish some of you didn't feel so singularly self-entitled of it.
 
Hey,
I can't believe I just read all of that!!!
Anyway, my physio psyc professor said it best " We're all idiots, it just depends on the question." If doctors were the end all of intelligence then none would ever need a consult. Intelligence has nothing to do with what graduate/professional school you attend. All going to medical school proves is that you worked hard and are possibly a masochist. Guess what, maybe having more fun in undergrad, then having fewer years of training and possibly a better income with fewer hours may just make dentists wiser if not smarter. This is a pointless arguement. As relatively intelligent person, you people should realize that nothing is of more difficulty to everyone. To some, having to read and memorize a whole lot of stuff is easy, then so is med school. To others, abstract concepts maybe easier, then go to grad school. Also, stop acting like grades are the end all/ be all of intelligence. I know many smart people with bad grades simply because they'd rather be working and don't like school, so what. I will agree that med. school beats you up physically/mentally more than most other professions, but so what. I garuantee you that a dentist and a doctor would both be idiots if they stepped foot into a theoretical physics lab (assuming no prior training) and vice versa. I think everybody needs to get over themselves. One of the "smartest" people I know has 3 PhD's, the first of which was awarded at age of 19, and he used to teach CS at my highschool full-time. He got bored and went to do something else.
 
Originally posted by Azn Slacker
Whenever you guys decide on which is the most rigorous, I'd like to add that almost nothing on the planet is harder than completing a residency in surgery.
Click to expand...

Oh really? Why don't you join the Marine Corps and enter into a Combat Division...serve for few years...then let me know if you still think this.

😉
 
Originally posted by profunda
you are delusional if you think a majority of dental students are smarter and their "curriculum is harder" than medical school.
Click to expand...

You are correct in that I don't have experience with med school. My comments were just a reflection of what several SDN members who HAVE done both dental and medical school have said.
 
GavinC, that doesnt agree with what you said. You said dental school is harder than medical school.

Your argument doesnt hold because, even though they take the same/similar classes, it doesnt show they are doing "better." Your argument would only hold if these dental students did the same/better than med students in all those classes plus taking their extra load (which from my experience, they dont).

I was not talking about intelligence. I was saying that med school is more 'academically' competitive for admissions. I was not the one who began comparing medical and dental students, it was Gavinc; and since he started the topic, I needed to throw in my 2 cents.

It's not a stereotype. It's straight from experience. Looking at my many 'science' classmates and friends, my experience was that 'academic' admissions competitive level was MD > PhD and DO > DDS > Pharm D > OD.

Sanman, maybe dentists are 'more intelligent' since lifestyle and income 'might be' better. But to some people, money is not as important as the challenge and comprehensive health knowledge med school/medicine provides.

I dont go around saying I'm academically smarter than people I'm not. Most would not consider my med school to be top 10, and I'd honestly agree I am not as academically competent as an average Johns Hopkins medical student. I dont know much about law school so I would not comment on that either. But what I know, I will comment. From a 'very large sample' of my former classmates, I can say an average Hopkins med student can kick my anus in science, but an average DDS and DMD/PharmD/OD (including Harvard and Columbia DMD, UCSF PharmD, Berkeley OD) wont even come close, and I'm not even at a top med school.


Originally posted by ItsGavinC
Sanman, That was an excellent post and sums up my feelings nicely!
Click to expand...
 
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