AOA increasing class sizes

[DrWBD]

NYCOM's class of 2003, according to the latest rumor floating around campus, will be over 300 students. This is in response to the latest AOA initiative to increase the numbers of DO's in the U.S.

Does anyone else think that the AOA is fighting a battle it can't win by trying to crank out more osteopathic physicians?

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[edgar]

300 is way too many students.

 

[VM]

I think the AOA and AMA should not be increasing class sizes with the possibility of a physician surplus. There was an article a few years ago by a specialty board (IM) about the AOA increasing physicians by opening new schools, and it said the AMA was not happy about it since LCME schools were downsizing. It will only hurt us in the future if there are too many physicians (DO & MD).

 

[Ponyboy]

i would rather an established school had a larger class size than if the AOA opened up another DO school. it seems like there have been alot of new DO schools that are sprouting up (eg. LECOM, the new one in Ca and the one in arizona(i can't remember the names)). i think that this(opening up new schools) is counterproductive to the AOA's goals. if the AOA wants to make DO's more visible, they shouldn't have all these new schools popping up so often. when the public sees all these new schools that are established overnight with rather low stats for their entering class ( 7-8 mcats and 3.2 gpa's), they think that it doesn't take that much to set up a "Joe's Osteopathic School of Medicine and Bar and Grill." this trivializes the public's perception of Osteopathic medical education and DO's(regardless of whether it's founded or not). this same opinion is held by many canadians. while the best american med schools may be better than the best canadian schools, canadians feel that, on the whole, canadian med schools are better than their american counterparts. why? because there aren't so many different med schools up in canada and each school must keep up with its peers. however, in the US, you can find some obscure "Jim-Billy Bob's school of Medicine and Taxidermy". i'm not saying that this opinion is founded or not, just that it is there. if the AOA repeatedly opens up new, "pre-fabricated-like" DO schools, the public may take on this opinion.

 

[spunkydoc]

this is a rather outrageous thing to do seeing as though last i heard there were not enough osteopathic residency slots for all the DOs we are now cranking out...however, the DME from NYCOM recently visited my school on a recruiting invitation for us to do rotations in ny and it seems as though nycom has acquired quite a large number of new spots in the last year--all within semi-decent, yet traditionally allopathic hospitals..my take was that nycom is trying to move in on a market there--perhaps the cap on MD residencies in ny is leaving the door open for an osteopathic boom there? i don't really know if that rule applied to osteopathic as well as allopathic residencies..

i am not sure increasing class size is a good thing right now..it is quite obvious to me that the only difference between a DO and an MD at this moment aside from this manipulation stuff we do, is that the allopathic world has money and we don't..they have money to validate their exams 12x over, to lobby in congress, to corner markets...

it seems rather bad business to me to accept 300 students into a class without knowing that you will be able to place all 300 into jobs (residencies), unless the goal is to take their money and weed them down to a manageable size?

the plight of allegheny univ in philly should be a lesson to all med schools/hospital systems attempting to buy up the house and grow as fast as possible..fast growth seems to = crashing and burning ... but i am no MBA, just an observer..

 

[prefontaine]

NYCOM's #s might be due to their emigre program, an accelerated program for IMGs to receive a DO.

There is at least one US MD (UI) school that starts 300/year. PCOM starts 250/year. Their grads seem to do fine.

Personally, I think it is to the benefit of the DO profession to increase the #s. There are >25,000 ACGME residency slots/year. With ~2000 DO and ~16,000 US MD grads in 1999, that leaves quite a few positions for IMGs. Better to have DOs fill those slots than IMGs, IMHO.

As long as there is a surplus of residency positions, the possibility of a doctor surplus exists. Decreasing the # of US MD/DO students is not the solution to the problem.
When I was interviewing for DO school, there were <2000 students matriculating/year. In 1998, there were >2500. As far as I am concerned, we could up entrants to 3000/year. ..the strength in #s concept.

 

[IUHoosier]

I am not sure what to think about increasing a class size to 300, but I strongly disagree with the statement by Ponyboy as to the fact that too many DO schools are opening up. It seems to me that opening a DO school in a new area is a great way to expand the profession into many areas of the country. I know in my state, Indiana, there is only a MD school, and let me tell you there are many people here that don't have a clue what a DO is. There are three DOs in my home town that many people I know see, and they didn't even know that they were seeing a DO when I asked them. The other point I am trying to make is that with each school comes newly affiliated hospitals that will take in DOs. Newly affiliated hospitals means new residency positions which compensates for the new students. After visiting LECOM, I found that they were very well prepared to make great DOs and the only reason for the low scores was that they had not yet been able to completely prove there existence. Fortunately, their requirements have increased each year and now that three classes have graduated, and landed respectable residencies, you will definetely be seeing an increase in scores. Finally, in order to keep up with over 100 MD schools producing fine doctors every year, it seems to me that one more DO school would only help keep the osteopathic cause alive and well. Just food for thought. By the way, Ponyboy where are you from? I thought it was interesting that you used Joe's Bar and Grill because I work right next to one.

Josh

P.S. PACERS ARE GOING ALL THE WAY.... Reggie for three.... BOOM BABY!!!!!

 

[DOGBOY]

Where is this rumor coming from or are you just talking out of your ass

 

[NickCVM]

It's much easier to increase a class size than to create a new med school!! I think that if the money was out there we could possibly witness the opening of a few more DO schools. That will be fine.
The increase in DO# could in part compensate for the cut on IMGs that are more than likely to happened in the next 3-4 years.

I personally think that 250-300people/class is way to many but I'm sure that NYCOM s'got its reasons -
--Nicolas--
WesternU'03

 

[jdaasbo]

for NYCOMs facilities more than 150 is overcrowding. 300 would be ridiculous (like Noah's ark with all the animals spilling over). 275, what it is today, is not that much better than 300 however.

I think NYCOMs greatest strengths are their 3rd and 4th year rotations. I have heard that years one and two are rough b/c of this overcrowding issue. By the way, how many people per cadaver/small group discussion would that be? (12?)

 

[Kat]

I interviewed at NYCOM and will be starting next year. What I was explained was that the large number of acceptance letters is due to "double acceptances"; that is, a lot of people who get accepted to NYCOM get accepted into other (M.D.) schools and applied to NYCOM as a safety blanket. Therefore, the inital 300 goes down to 250.

 

[VM]

Concerning residencies, it is the quality and fields of the residencies that matter, not the quantity. Many of the surplus residencies may not be very desirable. As a future D.O., I don't want these "leftover" residency spots that the IMGs may someday vacate. We are separate, but equal to M.D.s. I don't have the viewpoint as it seems some have that we are less than M.D.s, but better than IMGs. Let's be realistic, if D.O.s take up some of the # of spots that IMGs now occupy, D.O.s may then become the scapegoats for the physician surplus (like the IMGs are now). Also if the AOA opens new schools and increases class sizes they may also be blamed for the surplus. I have seen an article written by M.D. specialty boards pointing this out when Arizona was opening up (internal medicine). I found it on the web, look it up. The medical establishment could take measures to get more doctors into underserved areas of the country. I am not sure how, maybe they should accept more people from rural areas that would want to practice there, etc. This may be one step to help the physician surplus because I believe it is a problem of distribution. This may also be helpful against the NP cause, since they are getting more rights due to the lack of doctors in underserved areas.

IUHoosier, I know what you mean about misperceptions and lack of knowledge about D.O.s in Indiana, since this was my home state. I too hope that the Pacers go all the way. They haven't been hot lately though. Utah will take care of the Lakers once again too. I predict it will be a Utah vs Indiana finals.

 

[DrWBD]

NYCOM will definitely be increasing their class size, the question is only by how much. By August of 1999, the newly constructed NYCOM "3" building will be open.

Hopefully this will put an end to the present annoyances at NYCOM like sharing lockers and overcrowded classrooms (but I doubt it).

 

[jdaasbo]

IUHoosier,

if you are looking for DOs in Indy, look at Indiana University's Med School.

I know they have a couple of DOs, both faculty and resident, in their Emed program.

 

[IUHoosier]

jdaaspo,

Thanks for the advice. Actually, my cousin is one of those DOs at IU medical center. There is also an osteopathic hospital in Indianapolis so really there isn't a shortage of DOs around. The only thing I have seen(which I am sure many others have to in their state), is that a lot of people are clueless as to what the difference is and as to whether DOs are really true physicians. The biggest reason is that the only medical school here is at IU and it is MD. Fortunately, I have found that the MDs around here have all respected the osteopathic philosophy and none that I know of have been discriminatory. Just thought I'd clarify. By the way, are you almost done at CCOM. How much time will they give us for studying boards. I think you said earlier you were studying for them so I was just curious.

Josh

 

[jdaasbo]

sorry i told you what you already knew.

I am at the end of my first year at CCOM, and though I am already anxious about boards, I am far from studying for them. Yes much of the public doesn't know a DO from a duck, but so what that never stopped anyone from practicing medicine. Your patients will know who and what you are.

 

[dahoover]

To IU Hoosier and jdaasbo:

I'm also a native Hoosier who will be an MSI at KCOM this fall.....where are you two from?! I'm from Ft. Wayne. Do you plan on practicing in IN once you're finished with school? What does the residency situation look like in Indiana? I know there's a DO hospital in Indy, but how many positions do they have for residencies?! Just curious! Good luck and keep in touch! [email protected]

 

[jdaasbo]

I am from NY state. I don't intend to practice in IN. Somewhere on the east coast most likely.

 

[spunkydoc]

the reason why no one knows what a DO is is because the AOA, our political/business/marketing arm, does not market us..the bottom line--Allopathic world has $$$, the ostepathic world has a lot of hot air talk about the good old days and no money..this means that it is up to the new generation of classes to get up off our butts and market ourselves if this is what is required for our survival..

 

[IUHoosier]

hey dahoover,

I am from Noblesville, IN which is just north of Indy. I actually did some volunteer work at Westview Hospital and although I am not sure, I don't think there are many residency postitions. I met about five. They seemed to like it, but I thought it would be a little poor as far as learning a great deal. Not a lot of patients really go there because of Wishard, Methodist, and University hospitals which as you probably know are part of IU med. I possibly would stay in Indiana. It will all depend. If I do, I will probably want to do it at the above hospitals which fortunately have have a few DOs working there.

I quickly want to agree with Spunkydoc. As I know it has been mentioned many times before, this society does not know much of the osteopathic difference partially because of the lack of advertising by the AOA. I personally did not really hear and know of it till I became interested in medicine and had long talks with my advisor. My point is that it is not the end of the world and it definetely will not deter me from entering the field, I just think it is a shame that so many falsely think MDs are the only doctors. Just an opinion.

P.S. DOGBOY, quit sniffing everyones ass!!

 

[Stephen]

Dear IUHoosier,

How long have you lived in Noblesville? Although I don't consider myself from there, I grew up in Noblesville. Did you go to high school there?

 

[turtleboard]

In response to Kat's message dated May 12 regarding NYCOM class sizes and "double-acceptances," when I interviewed there in November, 1998, the Director of Admissions informed my group that the yield (that is the percentage of accepted students who matriculate) was a little higher than 30%. That means that they accept a whole lot more than 300 to yield 250 in a class.

Tim of New York City (also an NYU Alum)

 

[Rach]

dahoover,

Hey, I'm also from Indiana and going to KCOM in the fall. Are you at IUPUI now (email address)? Just curious cause I am currently there now.

 

[jdaasbo]

about NYCOM retaining only 30% of their acceptances, are you sure you got that right?

That sounds really quite low.

 

[turtleboard]

jdaasbo,

Yes, I'm sure I heard him correctly. I got it straight from the horse's mouth (Mr. Michael Schaeffer, Director of Admissions at NYCOM) and I, as well as most kids in my group, were quite surprised.

According to that figure they'd have to accept nearly 900 students to get a full class.

Tim of New York City.

 

[Test Boy]

However, according to U.S. News, NYCOM accepted 352 applicants for 220 spots.

 

[drusso]

Yep, Testboy appears to be right. There's a neat little feature where one can compare stats for different schools on the USNWR site:

www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/beyond/grad/gradmed.htm

[This message has been edited by drusso (edited June 08, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by drusso (edited June 09, 1999).]

 

[turtleboard]

Hmmm... It appears Testboy is right. Thanks, drusso, for posting the URL. I spent a good 30 minutes comparing a whole bunch of schools.

In any event the data posted on the US News website, though accurate for that year, may not have been the same for the year in question (although that seems unlikely). Does anyone want to give NYCOM a call?

It would be a big help to everyone here who's been affected by my post, and keep me from thinking I'm delusional. I won't call only because the Admissions Office is a bit too familiar with me.

Tim of New York City.