AOA not based on GPA

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Just found out that AOA at my school is not based on GPA. You only have to be in the top quarter of the class to qualify. The rest is up to the administration members, based on who they like best. Damn it, I should have joined student council so I could know them by name. I am a bit pissed about this because I was hoping that AOA could be coming my way eventually, and now my dreams are dashed.

Is this normal practice for med schools, or is it just mine?
 
If it's the top quarter of the class, doesn't GPA play a role?

I thought most schools used top 25% as the cut off and ultimately took 1/6th of the class based on additional factors.

You might still have a shot?
 
I thought that it was 100% GPA-based, like college. I didn't know that it is primarily based on your relationship with the deans. I've never met any of them so I don't think I stand a chance. Lots of my classmates are really buddy-buddy with the deans, while I prefer to work on my own projects solo and am not involved in student groups. I don't consider having a relatively low GPA cut-off as taking GPA into account much. A quarter of my class is about 50 students! That's an entire class in many other schools.

But by the sound of your reply, I take it that your school does something similar...
 
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I wasn't buddy buddy with anyone and got in AOA....
 
Go Ducks said:
Just found out that AOA at my school is not based on GPA. You only have to be in the top quarter of the class to qualify. The rest is up to the administration members, based on who they like best. Damn it, I should have joined student council so I could know them by name. I am a bit pissed about this because I was hoping that AOA could be coming my way eventually, and now my dreams are dashed.

Is this normal practice for med schools, or is it just mine?
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This is how AOA works in many/most schools. Your GPA matters in as much as it allows you to be selected for consideration if you are in the top 25%. After that, the rest of the stuff is taken into account (although the weight of these other things vary from school to school). My school did it the same way yours does.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
This is how AOA works in many/most schools. Your GPA matters in as much as it allows you to be selected for consideration if you are in the top 25%. After that, the rest of the stuff is taken into account (although the weight of these other things vary from school to school). My school did it the same way yours does.
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Well, I guess this answers my question. At least now I don't feel angry at my school in particular, seeing as they're following common practice. I can't wait until residency when I won't have to worry about "playing the game" (or, in this case, not playing it).
 
Go Ducks said:
Well, I guess this answers my question. At least now I don't feel angry at my school in particular, seeing as they're following common practice. I can't wait until residency when I won't have to worry about "playing the game" (or, in this case, not playing it).
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lol, "playing the game" never stops. If your concerned about getting ahead in life and getting prestigious jobs/training/etc. its always more who you know than what you know. There is a reason every president for the last several decades went to one of two schools at some point.

However if your just happy to do your job and be as good at it as you can, then that can start now and there is no reason to worry too much about "not being yourself" to try to get AOA.
 
I am very confused about AOA. What I know is that it is kind of like Phi Beta Kappa, but for medicine. Can any AOA members chime in on what you do once you are AOA? Service projects, voting on new members, etc. There has to be some AOA people on SDN.
 
At my school AOA is based on GPA (as said above 20% or so of the class is eligible for AOA). Once you are eligible, you need to submit an essay based on specific points, your CV, rec letters from physicians from each 3rd year rotation. Everything is anonymous (names, undergrad attended, and all the such is taken out of your CV). While I am in AOA, I am not directly involved in the selection process. Things considered are USMLE scores, research done/published, volunteer activities, participation in campus organizations. These things might slightly change from school to school. Most of the AOA people at my school are great people with great CVs and a great personality and lots of humbleness. Some are snobby people full of themselves. All in all, it's a nice thing to achieve. I like their monthly newsletter (the Pharos) a lot. I also know it helped me matched where I wanted.
 
And now the truth to AOA...are you ready?

Being AOA doesn't matter. If you look at the most recent NBME data, you'll see this is the case. I took a look at the recently matched ortho residents and only ~27% were AOA. That's 73% of the med students matching to ortho who were not AOA. So there you have it, doesn't seem to matter much.

Does it help to be AOA? Sure. But is it necessary? Definitely not. In terms of academics, board scores and 3rd year clinical grades are most important. Every school has its own system for preclinical grades and AOA status, which is probably why it's not a huge factor. Also, since preclinical grades (which are extremely variable from school to school) are the biggest influence on AOA eligibility, all the more reason AOA isn't a huge thing.
 
rocketbooster said:
And now the truth to AOA...are you ready?

Being AOA doesn't matter. If you look at the most recent NBME data, you'll see this is the case. I took a look at the recently matched ortho residents and only ~27% were AOA. That's 73% of the med students matching to ortho who were not AOA. So there you have it, doesn't seem to matter much.

Does it help to be AOA? Sure. But is it necessary? Definitely not. In terms of academics, board scores and 3rd year clinical grades are most important. Every school has its own system for preclinical grades and AOA status, which is probably why it's not a huge factor. Also, since preclinical grades (which are extremely variable from school to school) are the biggest influence on AOA eligibility, all the more reason AOA isn't a huge thing.
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This is a bad post, and you should feel bad. First you say it doesn't matter. Then you say it doesn't matter much. Then you say yes it helps.

AOA does matter. No one ever said it's NECESSARY. But it does matter, especially in specialties like Derm and Plastics, when ~50% of successful applicants are AOA members. Even in ortho with 27%, that is significant. 27% is a hell of a lot higher than the average collection of medical students.

Whether you like it or not (and whether it makes sense or not), AOA does matter.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
This is a bad post, and you should feel bad. First you say it doesn't matter. Then you say it doesn't matter much. Then you say yes it helps.

AOA does matter. No one ever said it's NECESSARY. But it does matter, especially in specialties like Derm and Plastics, when ~50% of successful applicants are AOA members. Even in ortho with 27%, that is significant. 27% is a hell of a lot higher than the average collection of medical students.

Whether you like it or not (and whether it makes sense or not), AOA does matter.
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Hahaha....nice, I am sure he will feel bad. Interwebz, serious business.

I think its more that the people who are competitive for derm, plastics, etc already have higher grades, more ECs and are therefore more likely to have AOA on top of what they already had.

I don't think AOA itself is all that important, but having many of the qualifications (or near qualifications) to get it is the important part.
 
If you don't wanna do derm/plastics/ortho, I'm sure it doesn't mean much if you don't have it.

Besides, Step scores and 3rd year grades mean WAY more than pre-clinical grades. Noone cares that someone got Honors/As in their classes if they got a 192 on Step 1 and just passed all their rotations.
 
KnuxNole said:
If you don't wanna do derm/plastics/ortho, I'm sure it doesn't mean much if you don't have it.

Besides, Step scores and 3rd year grades mean WAY more than pre-clinical grades. Noone cares that someone got Honors/As in their classes if they got a 192 on Step 1 and just passed all their rotations.
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Yea cause the person who honored all their classes will get a 192 on their Step 1.
 
plauto said:
At my school AOA is based on GPA (as said above 20% or so of the class is eligible for AOA). Once you are eligible, you need to submit an essay based on specific points, your CV, rec letters from physicians from each 3rd year rotation. Everything is anonymous (names, undergrad attended, and all the such is taken out of your CV). While I am in AOA, I am not directly involved in the selection process. Things considered are USMLE scores, research done/published, volunteer activities, participation in campus organizations. These things might slightly change from school to school. Most of the AOA people at my school are great people with great CVs and a great personality and lots of humbleness. Some are snobby people full of themselves. All in all, it's a nice thing to achieve. I like their monthly newsletter (the Pharos) a lot. I also know it helped me matched where I wanted.
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As an AOA member what did you do once you became AOA? Did you get any new responsibilities or is it more of a club of people who are all AOA? No one has answered this yet.
 
Wheatley said:
As an AOA member what did you do once you became AOA? Did you get any new responsibilities or is it more of a club of people who are all AOA? No one has answered this yet.
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It's more of a club. There might be some events here and there that you can be involved with, but nothing is required. The only thing I've been asked to do is participate in elections of other AOA members. As a third year student member at my school we met with the chapter faculty and reviewed the applications for potential fourth year members and made decisions on who to elect. Then during fourth year we elected the third years from the class below us.
 
JP2740 said:
Yea cause the person who honored all their classes will get a 192 on their Step 1.
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xD

Good point! But I have seen people who did well in classes, but struggled immensely with board prep due to not using any outside sources. Of course, if they did Honor their classes, they are probably brilliant and can learn the extra stuff quickly.

Then again, I'm glad I didn't have a cutthroat environment during pre-clinicals and for 3rd year, since there's no need to make med school as stressful...
 
This is what AOA is:

A bull**** status group that has no matter in the grand scheme of medicine or life. But, it's just another sexy thing to put on your app. That's it. It serves no other purpose in the world. I'm a 1st year and yea I'll try to get in, but if you're wondering what it is/what it represents (not how it could help you)-it's nothing.
 
JP2740 said:
Yea cause the person who honored all their classes will get a 192 on their Step 1.
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I wouldn't be surprised if this happened more often than one might think. You can get A's on tests by memorizing slides and minutiae, which is what many med school tests focus on, while having a poor foundation of knowledge, which is what would cause someone to do poorly on Step 1.
 
JP2740 said:
This is what AOA is:

A bull**** status group that has no matter in the grand scheme of medicine or life. But, it's just another sexy thing to put on your app. That's it. It serves no other purpose in the world. I'm a 1st year and yea I'll try to get in, but if you're wondering what it is/what it represents (not how it could help you)-it's nothing.
Click to expand...

Having sexy things to put on your app may well be a important thing for some people. If your gunning for a hyper-competitive specialty, or really want to match into medicine at MGH, this is very important. If you want to do emergency medicine in your med school's program, not so much.

Once you're past residency, it may not matter much, but the same could be said for much of what people stress about and work for in medical school - step exams, memorizing thousands of rat facts that only a certain type of sub-specialist actually needs to know, etc.
 
Oh yes, it does happen. Getting an A in a class isn't always meaning you'll do good in boards, clinicals or life. Like I mentioned before although the correlation is there(people who get A's are smart/driven to make themselves learn the extra boards stuff), it is perfectly possible.

But like I also said getting Honors means very little compared to 3rd year grades and Step 1.
 
ijn said:
Definitely seen that happen. Guy who honored everything got 40 points less than his predicted STEP 1 practice exam scores.
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Not surprised. My step 1 was significantly lower than my test scores. Unfortunately unlike almost every other standardized test I have taken, its one and done without any chance of retaking it (assuming you so-called "pass").
 
Weirder things have happened in life than someone doing well the first two years and then laying an egg on a standardized test.

AOA is an application booster. It just polishes an already strong application and gives it that little extra flash. It is like upgrading to the all weather floor mats or nav system in a new car. Without those things, it can still be a nice car but the upgrades add a little extra. For some specialties AOA is the nav system and for others it is the floor mats, but either way there is some upgrade. I don't think you could say it does NO good, because it is impossible to know what interviews you would have gotten if you DID having AOA versus not having it.

My school has a similar format. You have to be in the top 25% with grades and then you get nominated and submit stuff. We have representatives (clerkship directors) from each regional campus go and vote/represent.

Personally, I just want it because I have never been recognized for anything academic my entire life and it would just be nice to get that little bit of recognition saying, "Hey, you worked hard and put in the extra effort. Here is your little piece of paper and a magazine subscription." While I admit it is shallow, my dad got it back in the day and I'd kind of like to follow his footsteps a little as well.

Fretting over it won't do any good. You just have to work hard and hope the chips fall your way. I hope they weigh third year much higher than the first two years (especially the first) because that'd help me a lot. 😛
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
This is a bad post, and you should feel bad. First you say it doesn't matter. Then you say it doesn't matter much. Then you say yes it helps.

AOA does matter. No one ever said it's NECESSARY. But it does matter, especially in specialties like Derm and Plastics, when ~50% of successful applicants are AOA members. Even in ortho with 27%, that is significant. 27% is a hell of a lot higher than the average collection of medical students.

Whether you like it or not (and whether it makes sense or not), AOA does matter.
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Ommmmgggg I feel soooo bad. I hope my mom doesn't spank me. 🙁

But yea anyway, AOA is just a bonus. It helps if you have it, but it doesn't hurt you if you don't have it. So don't worry about it. If you end 3rd year in the top 25%, then awesome and hopefully you'll get AOA. If not, who cares since you don't need and it doesn't hurt you without it. Now if you don't get a high Step 1 score and you are wanting to apply for a competitive residency, then that's something you should worry about.
 
I think I understand what AOA is now. It is basically more of an award than an organization. After you join you get to sit around a table and pick future AOA people. However the variability in selection process from school to school bothers me. MossPog based on this thread it seems like AOA has less to do with working hard (academically), and more with showmanship and making the extracurricular stuff you do extra visible since you only have to be in the top 25% of the class to be eligible.

Still there is no doubt it can only help your residency app if you are AOA, a "bonus" as others have said.
 
rocketbooster said:
But yea anyway, AOA is just a bonus. It helps if you have it, but it doesn't hurt you if you don't have it. So don't worry about it.
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I'm not sure that this is correct. People I know who have applied to ENT and Radiology both said that that had they not had it, it would have hurt their application. When near 50% of applicants have it, not having it does stand out.

Also, I believe drizz said people would straight up ask him first thing if he had it. Disclaimer: It may not have been drizz, but one of the sdn rads applicants this year.
 
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Sheldor said:
I'm not sure that this is correct. People I know who have applied to ENT and Radiology both said that that had they not had it, it would have hurt their application. When near 50% of applicants have it, not having it does stand out.

Also, I believe drizz said people would straight up ask him first thing if he had it. Disclaimer: It may not have been drizz, but one of the sdn rads applicants this year.
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Huh? For ENT it was 41% AOA. For Radiology it was 26.4%. The importance of AOA really depends on what you want to do. Drizz or whoever wants to live in an ivory academic tower in the land of milk and honey where if you don't have a 260, multiple first author papers, and know people who know people then you're a scrub with no chance in hell of being accepted. He speaks from a perspective that represents a small minority of radiologists so don't use him as an example for the whole. Some of us just want to get filthy rich doing private practice work as radiologists, which most guys with a good personality, no AOA but good grades, and a 220+ can accomplish. Radiology is getting less and less competitive every year. Sure, it's probably cyclical and will go back up eventually, but right now it's very easy to match.
 
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ijn said:
Huh? For ENT it was 41% AOA. For Radiology it was 26.4%. The importance of AOA really depends on what you want to do. Drizz or whoever wants to live in an ivory academic tower in the land of milk and honey. Some of us just want to get filthy rich doing private practice work as radiologists, which most guys with no AOA and a 220+ can accomplish. Radiology is getting less and less competitive every year. Sure, it's probably cyclical and will go back up eventually, but right now it's very easy to match.
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I rounded up, yes. But the point remains that for some specialties it can be a detriment to not have it. Right or wrong, it is an easy mental screening tool since the requirements for getting in are so well know, I.e must be in the top 25%.

I also wouldnt argue with you that if you want to go to a non-competitive residency or a non-competitive program in a large field like Radiology it likely isnt a detriment to not have it.
 
Sheldor said:
I rounded up, yes. But the point remains that for some specialties it can be a detriment to not have it. Right or wrong, it is an easy mental screening tool since the requirements for getting in are so well know, I.e must be in the top 25%.

I also wouldnt argue with you that if you want to go to a non-competitive residency or a non-competitive program in a large field like Radiology it likely isnt a detriment to not have it.
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I just wonder what the value of a competitive program is beyond location. Medicare doesn't give you more cash money because you had AOA or completed your training at top 10 institute in radiology. But to each their own, I guess. For an actually competitive field like derm or ENT, I agree it's probably a huge boost, but radiology had something like 75 empty spots before the scramble this and still didn't manage to fill all of them. It's a totally different ball game compared to those fields.
 
At my school, it is the top 25% of the class - which is based on GPA. Ultimately, 1/6 of the class can be nominated to AOA.

If you are in the top 25%, this is when Step scores, research, volunteering, and yes, forming relationships with the faculty matter. At my school, getting Junior AOA is heavily weighted towards the forming relationships aspect. For Senior AOA, it swings back towards the research, Step scores, and volunteering aspects.

Everyone who deserves it based on the criteria will eventually get it. It's just a matter of when.
 
Sheldor said:
I rounded up, yes. But the point remains that for some specialties it can be a detriment to not have it. Right or wrong, it is an easy mental screening tool since the requirements for getting in are so well know, I.e must be in the top 25%.

I also wouldnt argue with you that if you want to go to a non-competitive residency or a non-competitive program in a large field like Radiology it likely isnt a detriment to not have it.
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Where did you learn to round 41% and 26.4% to 50%?
 
Wheatley said:
Where did you learn to round 41% and 26.4% to 50%?
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It was only 41% that I was rounding, and honestly the percent is the least important part of the argument. I was merely reporting numerous anecdotal responses I've heard, and offering a minor point like, when 2/5's of the applicants have something "good" and you don't, it will stand out.

I apologize that I didnt confirm the exact number before posting. If 9% makes the difference between you trying for AOA and not, then I believe there are other things you should probably work through.

I've yet to talk to someone who has AOA that has gone through interview season say, "Man, AOA did me absolutely no good. I interviewed at crappy schools, and no one mentioned it." However, I have heard people say it helped, and I've heard people say it hurt to not have it. Truth is, with out data its hard to say. The closet we get is that according to Charting Outcomes, those with AOA have a higher match rate than those without. Good arguments can be made that it isn't the AOA that is responsible, but the qualities that residencies look for are the same as what AOA looks for. Thats fine, but then isn't the lesson the same? Both groups are looking for approximately the same thing, therefore if you have it, and they trust the AOA selection process, it will help you. This of course assumes that those interviewing value good grades, board scores, research, etc. If they don't, then they'll care just as little about AOA as they will the fact you have all passes and a 220 Step 1.

My point: Those who have it say it helps, those that don't say it hurts, and a few who don't come on to message boards and talk about how little it helps and complain about how they didn't get it. Draw from that what you will.
 
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We are pretty much in agreement on everything, I was just being a smartass picking on your rounding.
 
AOA for us works basically the same way -- top 25% are eligible and then 1/6 of the class is selected based on applications, ECs, research, etc. No idea who gets in and who doesn't, but I'm sure like everything else in life, part of it is who you know and who you kissed ass to.

In other shocking revelations about life, you're more likely to get a job / match / etc if you're attractive, too. 😱
 
How do all of these AOA members "get to know" faculty members and deans? I'm only finishing my first year, but so far I've had zero reasons for ever coming in contact with these people. So is it basically people who are A) on the student government, and B) ass-kissers who set up appointments with the mucky mucks for the lone purpose of kissing ass?
 
sanityonleave said:
AOA for us works basically the same way -- top 25% are eligible and then 1/6 of the class is selected ....
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That's because this is the national standard dictated by AOA. This is the case for all schools. I should add the caveat that up to 1/6 of the class may be selected, but it is not necessary to select that many.
 
BeastInfection said:
So is it basically people who are A) on the student government, and B) ass-kissers who set up appointments with the mucky mucks for the lone purpose of kissing ass?
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No, it's not. Read above.
 
Why does everyone just assume brown nosing when it comes to being known by the faculty.

In the first two years, I just didn't show up to lecture and studied on my own. That gave me so much free time to do all the fun things I liked doing, like working with kids and low income families. In 3rd year, I just had a blast making everyone laugh on rounds while also knowing my patients really well and carrying as many patients as the interns. That is how faculty got to know me. I have no clue who the hell nominated me or how I got selected, but I am betting it had something to do with really high grades during the first two years, a high step 1, and being known by the attendings as a fun dude who did a lot of work and carried his weight.

No magic to getting in. Just be a likeable person, carry your weight during 3rd year, and do extra curricular stuff you like and you will get your junior AOA.

I am not writing this stroke my own pride, just to tell you guys that you don't have to be a brown noser to get AOA. If you are naturally introverted and don't know how to socialize and make everyone have fun while doing good work, you will have a harder time getting AOA.

Just work hard, do things you love, and be fun to be around and you will be a shoe in.

Last but not least. If you don't get it, its not the end of the world. In the end, its just a club of fat cats that sit around and do nothing but muse around picking who gets to be in there "oh so cool secret club." If you had the stats to get in, you will probably be a good candidate for residency anyway.

Good luck to all of you and don't let this stuff stress you out.

A wise man once said: "Does your problem have a solution? If yes, then why are you worrying about it? If no, then why are you worrying about it?"

Just do your best and don't worry about the rest.
 
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