Hi, is it true that getting in AP only vs. AP/CP is less competitive. Would fellowships look down upon AP only? Do most schools have a certain amount of slots of AP only and then a certain amount of slots for AP/CP. If so, does it vary which they have more slots for? Do you have to specify AP vs. AP/CP only on the ERAS application. Anyways, thanks everyone for all your help and advice. This forum rocks.
AP only vs. AP/CP
- Thread starter globulin
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Hey Globulin!
Any idea what you want to do with pathology post-residency? I think that would be the biggest determinant as to whether you would benefit from AP only.
Here is some thoughts:
1) Most AP-only programs are academically geared, so you would be expected/trained to set yourself up for an academic career and research. For example, a few of the high powered research programs that I interviewed at (Brigham, Pitt, and Hopkins) all had folks that *strongly* suggested that I lean toward AP only based on my interest in occupational lung diseases. In fact, they seemed to have my academic life planned including what research lab I could work out of.
2) If you want to be a generalist (particularly community), do both. You are more employable, as most lab groups want to have a bit of cross-coverage amidst their pathologists. In fact this was the advice given to me by a "famous" AP-trained pathologist (yup, the same one who wrote THE book on lung path, and now director of surg. path for my institution... woo hoo! PM me for more info). Even she said she regretted not being CP trained, and that she received less job opportunities than her AP/CP colleagues. Note: She worked for a community hospital as a generalist / lung consultant prior to her employment by my home institution--a rather unusual situation for such an academic powerhouse.
3) If you are contemplating forensics, you probably could get away with either AP or AP/CP. Forensics tends to have a high drop-out rate, so to speak, so if I end up doing it, I will get AP/CP certified with probably a surg path fellowship along with a forensics fellowship. Yup, I like to keep my options open.
4) Obviously, no AP only if you have an interest in lab medicine. This does include Hemepath, though, so if you like bone marrows and flows, think CP.
I honestly do not know which is more competitive. I think that less people are interested in pursuing AP or CP, than a combined program. I don't think that AP fellowships would look down on AP-only training. Eras DOES ask you to specify AP/CP versus AP, or CP only in many cases (depends on the hospital.) There is more AP/CP positions than one or the other. I think that there is some flexibility in most programs about whether you choose to pursue one or the other, and how many people they will take for each. Hope this answered some of your questions...
Well, I'm sure there is other good advice out there...
Mindy
Any idea what you want to do with pathology post-residency? I think that would be the biggest determinant as to whether you would benefit from AP only.
Here is some thoughts:
1) Most AP-only programs are academically geared, so you would be expected/trained to set yourself up for an academic career and research. For example, a few of the high powered research programs that I interviewed at (Brigham, Pitt, and Hopkins) all had folks that *strongly* suggested that I lean toward AP only based on my interest in occupational lung diseases. In fact, they seemed to have my academic life planned including what research lab I could work out of.
2) If you want to be a generalist (particularly community), do both. You are more employable, as most lab groups want to have a bit of cross-coverage amidst their pathologists. In fact this was the advice given to me by a "famous" AP-trained pathologist (yup, the same one who wrote THE book on lung path, and now director of surg. path for my institution... woo hoo! PM me for more info). Even she said she regretted not being CP trained, and that she received less job opportunities than her AP/CP colleagues. Note: She worked for a community hospital as a generalist / lung consultant prior to her employment by my home institution--a rather unusual situation for such an academic powerhouse.
3) If you are contemplating forensics, you probably could get away with either AP or AP/CP. Forensics tends to have a high drop-out rate, so to speak, so if I end up doing it, I will get AP/CP certified with probably a surg path fellowship along with a forensics fellowship. Yup, I like to keep my options open.
4) Obviously, no AP only if you have an interest in lab medicine. This does include Hemepath, though, so if you like bone marrows and flows, think CP.
I honestly do not know which is more competitive. I think that less people are interested in pursuing AP or CP, than a combined program. I don't think that AP fellowships would look down on AP-only training. Eras DOES ask you to specify AP/CP versus AP, or CP only in many cases (depends on the hospital.) There is more AP/CP positions than one or the other. I think that there is some flexibility in most programs about whether you choose to pursue one or the other, and how many people they will take for each. Hope this answered some of your questions...
Well, I'm sure there is other good advice out there...
Mindy
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Some other opinions,
I was told by both residents and pathologists who just graduated from the path residency who got jobs here (veryyyyyy competitive where i am) you should be BOTH AP/CP trained just because everyone else is. This sounds cliche, but it's true, the great majority of residents will be trained in both and when job hunting comes (and it will fast) you need to be competitive, esp. in today's economy with more and more pathologists being churned out. Cross coverage is another example. And you never know, if you want to go into private practice or start your own lab/path company you definetly will need both.
I was told by both residents and pathologists who just graduated from the path residency who got jobs here (veryyyyyy competitive where i am) you should be BOTH AP/CP trained just because everyone else is. This sounds cliche, but it's true, the great majority of residents will be trained in both and when job hunting comes (and it will fast) you need to be competitive, esp. in today's economy with more and more pathologists being churned out. Cross coverage is another example. And you never know, if you want to go into private practice or start your own lab/path company you definetly will need both.
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I was talking to someone who took their boards last year, and she said that she met several old timers who were taking the CP portion of the boards b/c they had been burned on the whole AP only thing. Apparently, while you can get a job in private or academic practice with just AP, at some point, you will need the other board to either keep your job in lean times or fend off junior partners who do have both boards. That's just what I've heard.
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Mindy and the others pretty much said it all.
Let me add that if you ever think you may want to do private practice you absolutely need to be AP/CP. Most private practice jobs would not even consider you if not. You would not be able to share the lab responsiblilities with the rest of the partners if not CP (usually they want to dump off as much CP responsiblity as they can because most surg path oriented folks don't enjoy CP as much as AP). Many new pathologists find themselves in charge of the blood bank because they are the low man on the totem pole.
Let me add that if you ever think you may want to do private practice you absolutely need to be AP/CP. Most private practice jobs would not even consider you if not. You would not be able to share the lab responsiblilities with the rest of the partners if not CP (usually they want to dump off as much CP responsiblity as they can because most surg path oriented folks don't enjoy CP as much as AP). Many new pathologists find themselves in charge of the blood bank because they are the low man on the totem pole.
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okay but say you really, really, really hate the idea of two years of CP. the idea of memorizing all those CD antigens and crap just kills you. couldn't you make yourself marketable by doing an AP fellowship that would give you some special skills that a private group could use?
and for Mindy: what's the bid deal with doing a surg path fellowship? especially if you were to do a forensic fellowship. does that general surg path fellowship make you that much more marketable if you want out of forensics? in the city i grew up in, the ME already does some general path coverage without an additional fellowship.
just trying to figure this all out. thanks.
and for Mindy: what's the bid deal with doing a surg path fellowship? especially if you were to do a forensic fellowship. does that general surg path fellowship make you that much more marketable if you want out of forensics? in the city i grew up in, the ME already does some general path coverage without an additional fellowship.
just trying to figure this all out. thanks.
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Okay everyone, I have an appointment at a temp agency today to get a job! How freakin' sad is that? I am going to be the only administrative assistant in America (or elsewhere) with an MD. Ho hum...
Augmel: very good point. I certainly do not have to get an extra fellowship, but I probably will. And although I said surg path, most likely I will refine it to an organ system when I figure out which one. Although I like forensics, I probably will not end up doing it anyway. The "plan" I listed was that of someone who classically cannot make up her mind and is chronically over-prepared. I do think that you could carve out an interesting niche field with forensics and an organ system behind you-- like super expert witness on all forensic skin conditions (I mean it, think tatoos, stab wounds, powder burn, etc. etc. Forensic pathologist pioneers!)
Also, I think that the divide between anatomic and clinical pathology is somewhat artificial with immuno/molecular/genetic fields bridging the gaps. The best example of this is hemepath...which is it? I know that when I spent 10 hour days looking at bone marrow morphology that it felt more AP than CP. But in a flow lab, you could not be more sure of which side of the fence you are on. Plus, immunohistochemistry, how can you use it without understanding the principle (CP) concepts? If laser capture picks up cells of the cytopathologists choosing and then the genome is dx'd for oncology studies, is that AP or CP? At my home institution, genetics is considered CP. Philosophically, I feel that it is our duty as pathologists to have a basic understanding of the diagnostics of all tissue specimens. It is our future, however, to be able to integrate and advance diagnostic modalities. I personally will not leave a part of my training abandoned, particularly when it may hinder my potential or employment later on... but as I all ready stated, I am classically over-prepared.
Mindy
Augmel: very good point. I certainly do not have to get an extra fellowship, but I probably will. And although I said surg path, most likely I will refine it to an organ system when I figure out which one. Although I like forensics, I probably will not end up doing it anyway. The "plan" I listed was that of someone who classically cannot make up her mind and is chronically over-prepared. I do think that you could carve out an interesting niche field with forensics and an organ system behind you-- like super expert witness on all forensic skin conditions (I mean it, think tatoos, stab wounds, powder burn, etc. etc. Forensic pathologist pioneers!)
Also, I think that the divide between anatomic and clinical pathology is somewhat artificial with immuno/molecular/genetic fields bridging the gaps. The best example of this is hemepath...which is it? I know that when I spent 10 hour days looking at bone marrow morphology that it felt more AP than CP. But in a flow lab, you could not be more sure of which side of the fence you are on. Plus, immunohistochemistry, how can you use it without understanding the principle (CP) concepts? If laser capture picks up cells of the cytopathologists choosing and then the genome is dx'd for oncology studies, is that AP or CP? At my home institution, genetics is considered CP. Philosophically, I feel that it is our duty as pathologists to have a basic understanding of the diagnostics of all tissue specimens. It is our future, however, to be able to integrate and advance diagnostic modalities. I personally will not leave a part of my training abandoned, particularly when it may hinder my potential or employment later on... but as I all ready stated, I am classically over-prepared.
Mindy
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Bump for Docmani.
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This isn't quite true everywhere. There are pathology programs where you can do AP only and do a hemepath fellowship, although I agree that doing AP/CP helps to prepare for hemepath.
D
deleted113029
What the hey people! thread from 2003?!
D
deleted113029
B
b&ierstiefel
Believe it or not, man, it's not like the good old days when path applications were a breeze and it was a buyer's market for applicants. This year is quite different (i.e., significantly more competitive) from previous years.
I have heard about the new program in the Falkland Islands. Basically they take one resident a year and he/she is responsible for grossing all colons. The resident will receive a yearly book fund of $7000 which means that he/she can buy lots of books to read to become an uber-duper-diagnostician. One concern raised though was that the resident will not have any time to read any of those books because he/she will be mashing for lymph nodes all day and all night.
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There seem to be a large amount of current fellows who do either CP or AP only residencies; are these just the gunners who knew they'd get a dermpath spot? I suspect that CP would not be that interesting to me, yet if one just does it to be marketable and that's just how the game is played I'd understand. But I would think an AP residency + fellowship would make you attractive enough for private or academic practice.
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Wow! Where the heck did this come from??!!!
Well in 2007, here's the update...
I LOVE CP--- I am so glad I did it. MGH has an amazing tox lab! I believe more strongly now than ever that the AP/CP line is totally artificial. In fact, MGH now under Dr. Louis has officially dropped the designation between the two, and we are now simply Pathology.
NO surg path fellowship for me after all. I will be at the Boston OCME for my forensics fellowship in July. I will go on to be a ME for life. Upon realization that there is nothing else I wanted to do more in life, it was an easy choice not to do an extra year "overpreparing" with another fellowship.
I have to say, I am a bit dismayed of late by all of the uninspired "whoa is me", salary/lifestyle talk on the forum these days. Back in my day , us wannabe pathologists had a passion! Sometimes I think the lurkers with a passion are drowned out by the naysayers. I met a lot of fabulous interviewees this season who were nearly as starry-eyed about pathology as I was 4 years ago! And really, I still am.
I guess once interested in forensics, always interested in forensics. Definitely let me know if anyone is interested in the field--I'd love to get a discussion going. Unlike some recent poster opinions, the truth is that not enough people are entering FP to sustain the field. In fact there are only 300-400 practicing FPs in the US. Only 19 people were board certified in FP last year! And lets face it, many many more pathologists (not to mention the public at large!) are interested in it than let on. I think many people are just shot down by others who do not see the value in the field. Its like being 12 years old and saying you are going to be an astronaut when you grow up--honestly, I get the same sort of reaction.
Oh yeah, and I certainly DID have a temp job as an admin in an accounting agency. I stuffed envelops for a month or so between medical school and residency...Ahh, the good old days.
Best of luck in the match everyone. Hopefully some of you will end up at the General! Okay, in 4 years, someone pop this thread up again...
Mindy
Well in 2007, here's the update...
I LOVE CP--- I am so glad I did it. MGH has an amazing tox lab! I believe more strongly now than ever that the AP/CP line is totally artificial. In fact, MGH now under Dr. Louis has officially dropped the designation between the two, and we are now simply Pathology.
NO surg path fellowship for me after all. I will be at the Boston OCME for my forensics fellowship in July. I will go on to be a ME for life. Upon realization that there is nothing else I wanted to do more in life, it was an easy choice not to do an extra year "overpreparing" with another fellowship.
I have to say, I am a bit dismayed of late by all of the uninspired "whoa is me", salary/lifestyle talk on the forum these days. Back in my day , us wannabe pathologists had a passion! Sometimes I think the lurkers with a passion are drowned out by the naysayers. I met a lot of fabulous interviewees this season who were nearly as starry-eyed about pathology as I was 4 years ago! And really, I still am.
I guess once interested in forensics, always interested in forensics. Definitely let me know if anyone is interested in the field--I'd love to get a discussion going. Unlike some recent poster opinions, the truth is that not enough people are entering FP to sustain the field. In fact there are only 300-400 practicing FPs in the US. Only 19 people were board certified in FP last year! And lets face it, many many more pathologists (not to mention the public at large!) are interested in it than let on. I think many people are just shot down by others who do not see the value in the field. Its like being 12 years old and saying you are going to be an astronaut when you grow up--honestly, I get the same sort of reaction.
Oh yeah, and I certainly DID have a temp job as an admin in an accounting agency. I stuffed envelops for a month or so between medical school and residency...Ahh, the good old days.
Best of luck in the match everyone. Hopefully some of you will end up at the General! Okay, in 4 years, someone pop this thread up again...
Mindy
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Well, anonymous internet boards are often the place for people to come and gripe or try to bring people down to their level of cynicism (or realism, depending on your perspective). I hate "lifestyle" whining the most though. I work always over 60 hrs a week as a resident, often over 70, and I would never think of changing what I do (except when I'm on blood bank or cytology). But if I had to work 40 hours a week as a financial analyst I would kill myself.
To me: Good "Lifestyle"= doing what you love. People who go into pathology because they want a job where they can be a doctor but not have to "work like a doctor" are going to have a rude awakening and probably are never going to be very happy or successful.
The salary whining is also annoying, but less so, because people do have to make a living and doctors run the risk of getting squeezed out financially by greedy dipwads who make decisions. The thing is, I would (obviously) rather make $400k/year than $150k/year, but not if it means having to put up with too much bull****. But does it bother me that I could conceivably make less while someone else profits off of my work? Yes it does.
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you couldn't have said it any better. i think this is what is at the heart of discontentment regarding compensation, even if it is not fully realized. (because we all know that we could probably get by w 150K, even with ugly loans, but when you could be making 400K, and somebody actually is and it's not you, a person with 10 plus years of post-graduate training, then you're gonna be like, WTF?). i cannot think of any other profession where "other" professions run the show. medicine has been hijacked by (or perhaps even given away to, depending on how cynical you are) folks looking to make a profit off our many years of rigorous training. it doesn't make sense how impotent physicans have become in their own domain.
i think this degree of powerlessness and unfairness drive physicans to want our share of the pie with a little more urgency than 50 years ago.
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Its funny how my opinions on some of the posters haven't changed since the early days either. Search some more to see how LaDOC and I have butted heads over the years...
Mindy
I want to find your rosey outlook on everything. Seriously, I honestly do.
What do you recommend? Meditation? Herbal remedies?
Where I get me some of those rose-colored glasses?
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I personally don't have time to be pessimistic---I have way too much to accomplish in the short time I have. There are plenty of naysayers that I spend my days maneuvering around. I always wonder why people don't stop complaining and start doing, but that has always been my position on that subject...
The colors of the world are beautiful just the way they are...you don't need glasses--you need to open your eyes.
Mindy
The colors of the world are beautiful just the way they are...you don't need glasses--you need to open your eyes.
Mindy
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Delicious.
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FYI, I know a guy in Humboldt that could get you some excellent herbal remedy. Not that I advocate or condone the use of illegal substances.
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FYI, I know a guy in Humboldt that could get you some excellent herbal remedy. Not that I advocate or condone the use of illegal substances.
I also heard about this place in SF called the lower Haight...
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Eh, inferior quality with a high chance of being assaulted, panhandled, or arrested. Make sure you steer clear of that McDonalds on the corner of Haight and Stanyan--definitely a burn-out's paradise. As an aside, I have yet to find a rival to Amoeba Records in terms of cost and ability to find indy and rare stuff-- I yearn for the days of spending countless hours wandering around and listening to music in that place. Good times.
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There is ALWAYS time for pessimism. The interesting thing is that once one comes to terms with pessimism, you actually become somewhat optimistic because people start surprising you (since you expect so little of them).
I consider myself somewhat of a modern pessimist. I love life and enjoy all the little things, yet I hate a lot of the bull**** that goes along with it and that so many people subscribe to. So that means I tend to keep to myself more, make fun of people, do my job well, help others out, but yet at the same time don't depend on others as much. Where it has left me is that I find life astoundingly enjoyable, except for the parts when I have to put up with other peoples' incompetence or selfishness. I can minimize those effects pretty well though by letting people have their small victories (like dingus drivers, people who push and shove and have to be first, people who think they are better/more important than anyone else, etc). Plus, I married well.
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Eh, inferior quality with a high chance of being assaulted, panhandled, or arrested. Make sure you steer clear of that McDonalds on the corner of Haight and Stanyan--definitely a burn-out's paradise. As an aside, I have yet to find a rival to Amoeba Records in terms of cost and ability to find indy and rare stuff-- I yearn for the days of spending countless hours wandering around and listening to music in that place. Good times.
Dude, I thought you knew something about SF. You can't get any more upper Haight than Haight and Stanyan. That is like two neighborhoods and a world away from Lower Haight. And what San Franciscan ever goes to McDonald's (and that includes the gutter punks)? Truly Mediterranean, before it got demolished to make condos, Escape from NY, and Zona Rosa were the spots in Upper Haight for cheap eats. Murio's trophy room is another classic for drinks. But those ain't no where near the lower haight.
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My bad. When I read the post I just saw "Haight", didn't mean to misconvey that the McDonalds and Amoeba were in the lower Haight--I am keenly aware that they are in the upper Haight, as I use to live a few minutes away (Carl and Cole). #2, I never said that I ate at that McDonalds--I was just referring to it as a place where the burnouts hang out 24/7, and if you've been there recently you would have seen the 25+ "San Franiscans" lounging about and eating big macs, fries, and **** last Sunday afternoon. Mexican food? Try El Balazo--probably the best burrito outside of the Mission. Pizza? Escape From NY is good, I'll give you that, but I'd rather walk three streets south and hit North Beach. Drinks? Try Hobson's Choice, An Bodran, Zam Zam (one of my personal favs in the area), Kezar Pub, or if you wanna solid dive you can walk 5 minutes into Cole Valley and hit Finnegans Wake.
Should we compare notes on the Marina? Next time don't be such a cock.
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how long does it take to complete an AP/CP residency? Versus just CP alone? thanks
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4 years vs 3 years
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edit
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wow burn.. and it only took 118 days 23 hrs to think it up. and 5 minutes to type it in...
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Thanks. Perhaps the regular Phd route is faster, if a bio grad is looking into specializing in microbiology.
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I have been quiescent.
And besides I'm just joking around. It is pointless to try to out know a know it all.
