AP only

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medstu1

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Hi, guys,

I know this is kind of an old topic. But how do you predict the future? Is it possible that one day, no AP/CP combined training will be offered?

How is the current situation? If I do AP only, but from a prestigious institution, like MGH or Upenn, Will I be discriminated on the job market vs. AP/CP?

Thanks a lot.

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Hi, guys,

I know this is kind of an old topic. But how do you predict the future? Is it possible that one day, no AP/CP combined training will be offered?

How is the current situation? If I do AP only, but from a prestigious institution, like MGH or Upenn, Will I be discriminated on the job market vs. AP/CP?

Thanks a lot.

If you're nervous enough to ask I think you have your answer. If you're going to do 100% research.. or if you think you are (though even you say it's hard to predict the future) you are probably ok doing AP only. If you think you'll ever have a job at any private practice, given the current less than perfect job market, I can't imagine why you wouldnt invest the extra time to do CP.
 
But more than half of the residents at MGH are AP or CP only. What does this mean? They all want to go to research?

Does AP-only mean one has no good chances for private practice? Really confused.
 
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But more than half of the residents at MGH are AP or CP only. What does this mean? They all want to go to research?

Does AP-only mean one has no good chances for private practice? Really confused.

If you want to limit yourself to academia do AP only. If you want to do private practice AP/CP is required. LADoc has brought this up in his previous posts. Most private practice groups want you to be able to help in CP as well.

I wonder if you can get a dermpath/GI/GU only private practice position with AP only? Anyone know? These guys just pass glass all day anyways with no CP work (if you are working in a dermpath or GI (Ameripath) only group/setting).
 
I wonder if you can get a dermpath/GI/GU only private practice position with AP only? Anyone know? These guys just pass glass all day anyways with no CP work (if you are working in a dermpath or GI (Ameripath) only group/setting).

Yes, it is possible, especially if you're willing to work for one of the megalabs. In fact, I don't see why those places would care if you have CP. Also remember there are derm-trained dermatopathologists out there who obviously can't sign out either general surg path or CP, and they're still getting jobs (although some of them end up working with private derm groups, which is less likely for path-trained dermpaths). It's also possible to get a job in a private pathology group with only AP if you have a desireable subspecialty, but far easier if you also have CP. If that is your goal, I would definitely recommend doing CP as well. On the other hand if you're certain you want to do academics or the megalab thing, there's no need to do CP.
 
But more than half of the residents at MGH are AP or CP only. What does this mean? They all want to go to research?

Does AP-only mean one has no good chances for private practice? Really confused.

Most MGH residents are academically oriented, and thus prefer doing AP or CP and then join academic jobs. HOWEVER you can do AP only with subspecialty fellowship(s) and get a job in private practice. The opportunities may be limited compared to if you did AP/CP, but you will find a job (and not just one in a large commercial lab).
 
I wonder if you can get a dermpath/GI/GU only private practice position with AP only? Anyone know? These guys just pass glass all day anyways with no CP work (if you are working in a dermpath or GI (Ameripath) only group/setting).

You're probably OK working any place that doesn't need to cover CP call. You may even be OK working in industry, such as a biotech or pharmaceutical company. You could potentially work for a large hospital group if they have more than enough people to cover CP call (kind of like an academic environment).

Have you considered that maybe some of the AP only residents want to do forensics? There's no need for CP training there. :p


----- Antony
 
Have you considered that maybe some of the AP only residents want to do forensics? There's no need for CP training there. :p


----- Antony


i highly doubt that the vast majority of AP only residents at MGH are doing forensics... anyway i'm doing FP and am AP/CP. some people still do AP only. it's a personal choice.
 
i highly doubt that the vast majority of AP only residents at MGH are doing forensics... anyway i'm doing FP and am AP/CP. some people still do AP only. it's a personal choice.

The MGH people who I know of who went into forensics did AP/CP, and since our CP training is pretty strong, specialized in toxicology and chemistry (including the development of toxicology interpretive reports).
 
I find the few comments on here really curious. On this board we have one population who says multiple fellowships are required to just "hope" to get any job (not just good jobs) in the marketplace. And here we have people saying CP is optional and STILL leaves good possibilities to get jobs even in private practice. I know CP isn't a fellowship but I'm assuming that the people advocating multiple subspecialty fellowships are saying that with an understanding that you also need AP AND CP.

Of course no one who says reassuring things about not taking CP have, from what I've seen, ever claimed multiple fellowships are necessary.

Now I'm confused whenever these come up. I suspect the people on this thread really know people with great jobs (even in private practice) who are AP only or AP and some specialty (I know of only one example outside acedemics in my short experience). If that's the case, it really muddies the waters for me about how I perceive the job market and what advice I would give confused students looking at pathology like the OP. This year when people have interviewed for spots here and asked, I've always said do both AP and CP if you want a reasonable chance of working outside a university. I think I'm still going to continue to say that but now I have some doubts.
 
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The MGH people who I know of who went into forensics did AP/CP, and since our CP training is pretty strong, specialized in toxicology and chemistry (including the development of toxicology interpretive reports).

now THAT would have been useful!
 
I find the few comments on here really curious. On this board we have one population who says multiple fellowships are required to just "hope" to get any job (not just good jobs) in the marketplace. And here we have people saying CP is optional and STILL leaves good possibilities to get jobs even in private practice. I know CP isn't a fellowship but I'm assuming that the people advocating multiple subspecialty fellowships are saying that with an understanding that you also need AP AND CP.

Of course no one who says reassuring things about not taking CP have, from what I've seen, ever claimed multiple fellowships are necessary.

Now I'm confused whenever these come up. I suspect the people on this thread really know people with great jobs (even in private practice) who are AP only or AP and some specialty (I know of only one example outside acedemics in my short experience). If that's the case, it really muddies the waters for me about how I percieve the job market and what advice I would give confused students looking at pathology like the OP. This year when people have interviewed for spots here and asked, I've always said do both AP and CP if you want a reasonable chance of working outside a university. I think I'm still going to continue to say that but now I have some doubts.

It is definitely possible to get a good job - including a private practice job - with AP only + a subspecialty fellowship. That having been said, just because it's possible doesn't mean that it's a good idea to count on it. If I were giving advice to someone entering the field I would still suggest doing AP/CP unless they were 1) certain they were going to be an absolute superstar, 2) certain that they would be able to get into a one of the competitive fellowships, or 3) certain that they wanted to go into either academics or a megalab. Since most people are still trying to figure out exactly what they want to do when they start residency, I think it's smartest for most people to do AP/CP.
 
I trained at a "prestigious" institution with a strong academic and research focus. Many residents chose AP-only or CP-only tracks, and some residents who started out AP/CP dropped the CP portion during their training. This is a choice that I do not endorse.

For starters, CP was one of the highlights of my training. It was intellectually stimulating and satisfying in a way that AP never was. It reconnected me to the basic science underpinnings of medicine. I felt like a medical student again which was awesome because I loved medical school. And my program offered a particularly strong CP experience for those who chose to take advantage of it. Although I do not have first hand experience at MGH, I am inspired by Dr. Laposata's vision of what clinical pathologists can contribute to clinical care. We sometimes participated in multidisciplinary rounds. We attended clinical patient care meetings. We were able to provide a lot of leadership and advice on difficult patients, to improve laboratory utilization, and put an accessible face to the clinical labs. I felt like a real doctor! CP was awesome at my institution and by skipping CP, I think residents cheat themselves of one of the most rewarding training experiences of their careers.

Secondly, CP provides a nice respite during the training period. Although there are long days on CP heme, the schedule is light compared to AP (and nothing compared to internal medicine, surgery, or pediatrics residencies). It's kind of like how some surgical programs take a two year research break in the middle of training. Some residents have children during this time. While there is no easy time to have children, during your CP years is probably as good a time as any. It is also a good time not only to aggressively immerse oneself in CP, but also integrate and mature your AP knowledge. Most of us at my institution followed up our AP/CP with a general surgical pathology fellowship which was the single best experience in my professional life. But I know that I'm a better surgical pathologist because of my CP training.

Finally, being AP/CP opens the most doors in private practice. Yes, many AP-only graduates have successfully found private practice jobs but they are the exceptions. They have found niches where specialty training and/or geography made them an invaluable asset to a group. But the value provided must overcome the disadvantage of not being able to share CP call or direct portions of the laboratory. Providing value is not, "I'll gladly do your GI biopsies, but I refuse to do Pap smears, look at body fluids, or take any responsibility for transfusion reactions." Providing value is, "I'm great at all aspects of AP, particularly GI, but I also have interests in QA/QI projects, interdepartmental infection control policies, and improving blood utilization." The main bread-winning function of a private practice pathologist is surgical pathology. But in my opinion, the best additional training you could do to improve your job potential is CP. Then after that, a general surgical pathology fellowship and/or subspecialty AP fellowship.

You should skip CP if you absolutely HATE it so much that you'd rather pass on a sweet job if it required CP. But even if you're going into academics, I have never never heard anyone regret doing CP (even if they do not use it in their current job). I have heard many people bemoaning and regretting not doing CP.
 
The issue of AP only, or CP only, comes up frequently. There is no definitive answer to this question because it depends on the career choices of the individual. In my case, I interviewed for AP only at some institutions, and CP only at other institutions. This was a decision based on my career choice of being a physician-scientist with an emphasis on basic science research. For me, training in AP only has allowed me to focus my efforts on the investigative work.

When students considering a career in pathology ask me this question, I ask about their career goals. If they intend to work in a community setting, AP/CP training is the best option. It provides them with the most flexibility and usually provides them with the best credentials for private practice.

If they want a University setting, they will almost certainly be working strictly AP or strictly CP, even if they mostly perform service work. Training in only one area also allows focus. However, if they do hope to make the move into private practice after a few years it will make that individual a less competetive applicant.

If you want to become a physician-scientist, and fight for NIH grant dollars to push back the frontiers of science while still providing outstanding patient care in your discipline, early focus on AP or CP only is advantageous.

For the majority of people entering pathology training, AP/CP offers the greatest flexibility. But for some, AP only or CP only training will permit a faster track to career objectives.

Dan Remick, M.D.
Professor and Chair of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine
Boston University School of Medicine and Boston Medical Center
 
i am on the verge on switching to AP only- pending GI fellowship acceptance. with the way things are going, i will likely stay in academics for quite some time. Of course, 9 out of 10 of my attendings are begging me not to drop CP due to the job market.

that said, i was recently told by more than one person that adding a molecular pathology fellowship (which is something i can actually stand compared to clin chem/ microbio/ blood bank) will make me a rather desirable candidate for jobs (at least in the academic arena).

Does anyone know what a subspecialty GI anatomic pathologist with molecular path boards would do on a daily basis? the last thing i want to do is run a lab (or any area of one)- even if it opens up doors.. would you more likely be the point person of the surgical pathologists for molecular of solid tumors? i want to spend the majority of my time signing out surgicals.. would appreciate any input from practicing pathologists..
 
...Does anyone know what a subspecialty GI anatomic pathologist with molecular path boards would do on a daily basis? ...

Yeah. You'll likely be covering whatever service requires coverage at your institution, either due to a shortage of manpower, or lack of interest of more senior faculty.
 
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