APA Workforce Data on PhD vs. PsyD Salaries

[PHD12]

For those of you interested, I was able to locate data published by the APA Center for Workforce Studies that lists median full-time salaries for experienced clinical PsyD vs. PhD graduates. This data was compiled in 2009 so its pre-recession:

Median PsyD (8 years work experience): 75K
Median Clinical PhD (8 years work experience): 84K

Source:
2009 APA Salary Survey
Compiled by the APA Center for Workforce Studies, July 2009.
Note PsyD N=1114; Clinical PhD N=100

http://www.apa.org/workforce/presentations/2011/mpa-handout.pdf

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[mrfox1]

excellent info, thanks. would love to see some comparisons to clinical MSW's as well, since their is some overlap between the services that they provide.

 

[Ollie123]

Weird to see such a huge discrepancy in N's...given the variability I'm not sure how much to make of those numbers for the PhD estimate.

 

[Pragma]

I wonder how informative this is...the N size for the PhDs isn't really anything to sneeze at either. Plus, self-selection? Not sure about their methodology.

Region, cost of living, academic vs. clinical positions, multiple income sources, specialty, etc...need to break down the data for it to be meaningful.

 

[Qwerk]

excellent info, thanks. would love to see some comparisons to clinical MSW's as well, since their is some overlap between the services that they provide.

Here's an NASW compensation study from 2009: http://workforce.socialworkers.org/8-SalarySurvey.pdf

It includes some information about benefits as well. Note that several of the charts combine M.S.W. salaries with B.S.W. salaries, and that the report doesn't seem to separate clinical social workers in mental health settings from non-clinical social workers (e.g. case managers) in the same settings.

 

[NeuroTrope]

Median salary for neuropsychologists with 6-10 years of experience is 90K.

http://napnet.org/TCN salary survey.pdf

 

[edieb]

Median salary for neuropsychologists with 6-10 years of experience is 90K.

http://napnet.org/TCN salary survey.pdf

Wow, that is really poor pay considering all the education it takes to become a neuropsychologist

 

[PHD12]

I wonder how informative this is...the N size for the PhDs isn't really anything to sneeze at either. Plus, self-selection? Not sure about their methodology.

Region, cost of living, academic vs. clinical positions, multiple income sources, specialty, etc...need to break down the data for it to be meaningful.

I agree with the methodological limitations. This is the only data I was able to find that breaks income down into PsyD vs. PhD. The APA does not do any of this in their salary surveys. People tend to say that the salary between PsyD and PhD is the same, but I have doubts about this.

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

Wow, that is really poor pay considering all the education it takes to become a neuropsychologist

You consider that poor pay? I can only hope I make that much after 6-10 years in the field.

Edit: I'm not going into neuropsychology and I have no idea what it takes to become one. Other than the type of training you need to become licensed, how different is a neuropsych degree from a generalist clinical psych degree (in terms of what you need to do in order to get it)?

 

[NeuroTrope]

Wow, that is really poor pay considering all the education it takes to become a neuropsychologist

These include people who self-identify as neuropsychologists but aren't ABPP-CN boarded, which has both institutional salary perks (aka the VA) and better vocational opportunities in general.

 

[edieb]

You consider that poor pay? I can only hope I make that much after 6-10 years in the field.

Edit: I'm not going into neuropsychology and I have no idea what it takes to become one. Other than the type of training you need to become licensed, how different is a neuropsych degree from a generalist clinical psych degree (in terms of what you need to do in order to get it)?

I hope you consider that poor pay, too. This is especially true considering that most of the respondents probably live in urban areas that have high costs of living (most psychologists congregate in these areas), that we are not earning a salary (and likely taking on debt) for a number of years, etc. I hope you think this is poor pay, too or you are selling yourself way short

 

[PHD12]

I hope you consider that poor pay, too. This is especially true considering that most of the respondents probably live in urban areas that have high costs of living (most psychologists congregate in these areas), that we are not earning a salary (and likely taking on debt) for a number of years, etc. I hope you think this is poor pay, too or you are selling yourself way short

Edieb, I would imagine that most people feel differently after 6 years of graduate school and the 2 year fellowship that is required for neuropsychology plus 10 years of work experience. At that point, you are somewhere in your 40's and feel very differently than your 20 something past self.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I agree with the methodological limitations. This is the only data I was able to find that breaks income down into PsyD vs. PhD. The APA does not do any of this in their salary surveys. People tend to say that the salary between PsyD and PhD is the same, but I have doubts about this.

I think it is valuable info. I suspect a part of the discrepancy is that PsyD's are generally not working as tenure-track professors. I always find it perplexing when they lump folks doing clinical work (particularly PP) in with folks working as university professors. Although professors aren't making big bucks, they have some significant financial perks that the PP folks don't, such as insurance, retirement, and raises.

Dr. E

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I am a neuropsychologist. Check out the board certified guys in the neuro survey. They are up over the 150k range, depending on setting. Where I work, I am only 10k off of the physician pay in my department (with no debt and i work fewer hours). I don't do any forensic work, a big money earner, and I am still an assistant professor. I finished my postdoc in 08. So I am 5 years out. I live in a college town, not an urban environment. I am happy with the finances at present. My concern is more about sustainability.

I hope to be in that range in another year or two. I am working on my ABBP now (rehab, then going for neuro in '14), which I know is masochistic, but ultimately my goal. I am starting to look more seriously at medicolegal work, as the pay is excellent and the work is pretty interesting.

 

[JeyRo]

I hope to be in that range in another year or two. I am working on my ABBP now (rehab, then going for neuro in '14), which I know is masochistic, but ultimately my goal. I am starting to look more seriously at medicolegal work, as the pay is excellent and the work is pretty interesting.

How do you just..... get yourself into medicolegal work?

I have a friend who is a neuropsychologist at a local VA that's academically affiliated (I think he got an adjunct faculty title out of it), and he's been there a few years. He isn't boarded, he doesn't have a ton of academic / research experience (a few pubs, nothing special), has a pretty wide breadth of clinical experience.

He basically set up a professional website a few years ago and then updated it every few months and tweaked it (basically listing his CV and some other stuff) and then spent a little bit of money (less than a hundred bucks a year) boosting it's search ranking on Google. Just this year apparently some lawyer just found his website just surfing Google and he called him up and hired him on! Just like that. I'm a little jealous (although happy for him, because he's a very nice fellow) because as I know, this is a great route to getting more referrals.

I'm wondering how I can get in on this, because yes, it's interesting work (my wife is a lawyer), and the pay is potentially quite good.

I'm leery of paying money for just scattershot marketing efforts and hoping they'll pay off, like my friend did.

I am planning on sitting for ABPP oral exams in the next few months to a year to be one of the first in the country to be boarded in geropsych. - Would there be any value to that, I wonder?

Anyways, just thinking out loud....

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hmm. I'm not sure what the best route is to interesting forensic work. My thought is to get board certified and conduct some research in a forensic hot topic.

Boarding definitely seems to be a good way to increase the number of calls you're getting (at least according to my current supervisors). That, networking, and likely just taking on your first case or two.

 

[PHD12]

Boarding definitely seems to be a good way to increase the number of calls you're getting (at least according to my current supervisors). That, networking, and likely just taking on your first case or two.

Interesting. I did not expect that lawyers/clients would check the ABPP website when looking for a psychologist.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Interesting. I did not expect that lawyers/clients would check the ABPP website when looking for a psychologist.

I'm not sure about clients as of yet, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if lawyers had started becoming savvy to the idea of board certification. It's just one extra credential to support their potential expert witness. An added bonus could be that it helps them identify some early career folks without having to feel as if they're gambling quite as much, as this could save them significant money vs. the more-entrenched and/or more well-known practitioners.

 

[Pragma]

I'm not sure about clients as of yet, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if lawyers had started becoming savvy to the idea of board certification. It's just one extra credential to support their potential expert witness. An added bonus could be that it helps them identify some early career folks without having to feel as if they're gambling quite as much, as this could save them significant money vs. the more-entrenched and/or more well-known practitioners.

Aside from the benefits, really the way I understand it is that if you are NOT board certified, you can get your a$% handed to you on the stand. More of a prerequisite to good cases and ongoing consultations than a benefit.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Aside from the benefits, really the way I understand it is that if you are NOT board certified, you can get your a$% handed to you on the stand. More of a prerequisite to good cases and ongoing consultations than a benefit.

True as well. If you aren't A) already well-established as an expert in the field, B) board-certified, or C) the only neuropsychologist in the state, forensic work could be rough. And even C is arguable, given that if the lawyer wants/needs you badly enough, they'll fly you in.

 

[deleted407083]

Just a question about ABPP:
Is it possible to board certify in multiple specialities?
Lets say I want to be a pediatric psychologist. Would I apply for both child and adolescent and health specialties?

I'm currently looking at the early entry option which is targeted toward students.
http://www.abpp.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3558

 

[quickpsych]

I read somewhere that a large number of Psy.D. psychologists still go into private practice which with managed care and economic issues could explain the lower salaries. I would assume the same issue arises for Ph.D. psychologists who go exclusive into private practice. I know a few Psy.D.'s who likely make over 90K a year and most of those individuals have multiple roles in the field.

I'm sure this could all change in the future but seems like maybe the choice of work each one does has a greater impact on earnings than the actual degree itself.

 

[futureapppsy2]

That's quite the n discrepancy between PhDs and PsyDs....

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just a question about ABPP:
Is it possible to board certify in multiple specialities?
Lets say I want to be a pediatric psychologist. Would I apply for both child and adolescent and health specialties?

I'm currently looking at the early entry option which is targeted toward students.
http://www.abpp.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3558

I only know about the rehab and neuro options, but here is what I have found. The vast majority of people who pursue ABPP boarding only do it in one area. I looked into RP + CN boarding about 3-4 years ago, and at the time there were 12 people boarded in both. I believe that number is closer to 16-20 now. It happens with other ABPP boards, though I have no clue how often. Obviously it is possible to be boarded in two, but I'm guessing the reviewers will be pretty picky about having a sufficient background in an area.

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

I hope you consider that poor pay, too. This is especially true considering that most of the respondents probably live in urban areas that have high costs of living (most psychologists congregate in these areas), that we are not earning a salary (and likely taking on debt) for a number of years, etc. I hope you think this is poor pay, too or you are selling yourself way short

As I said, I'm not going into neuropsychology, so I'm not knowledgeable about what it takes to become one (or the number of training years, for that matter). When I said I can only hope to make that much after 6-10 years of working in the field, I was more so referring to myself (as an individual not going into neuropsychology). To expect a salary any higher than that would be naive of me, especially given dwindling reimbursement rates.

 

[VAneurodoc]

I only know about the rehab and neuro options, but here is what I have found. The vast majority of people who pursue ABPP boarding only do it in one area. I looked into RP + CN boarding about 3-4 years ago, and at the time there were 12 people boarded in both. I believe that number is closer to 16-20 now. It happens with other ABPP boards, though I have no clue how often. Obviously it is possible to be boarded in two, but I'm guessing the reviewers will be pretty picky about having a sufficient background in an area.

You can get boarded in as many areas as you want if you have the time/money. There are diminishing returns to getting additional boarding. For example, I am trained in both rehab and neuro and I am boarded in neuro. There is no benefit for me being boarded in rehab at this point given that I only do outpatient neuropsych evals and medico-legal cases in my private practice. I cannot imagine a scenario where it would be worth it for me. I will consider forensic in the future depending on whether I decide to stay at the VA or not.

 

[VAneurodoc]

Aside from the benefits, really the way I understand it is that if you are NOT board certified, you can get your a$% handed to you on the stand. More of a prerequisite to good cases and ongoing consultations than a benefit.

This is not entirely true. I did plenty of cases before I was boarded and never had a problem. I do spend less time reviewing my credentials during depos now though, but never even came close to having my ***** handed to me. In fact I regularly was on the opposing side of a boarded neuropsychologist in the area and feedback typically indicated that my testimony was more convincing. My practice has grown since I was boarded as IME companies came calling more often. I have no website and only rely on the AACN and ABPP website for advertising as well as local word of mouth. Keep in mind this is a part time practice (2-4 medico-legal cases a month with a lot of variability).

 

[Pragma]

This is not entirely true. I did plenty of cases before I was boarded and never had a problem. I do spend less time reviewing my credentials during depos now though, but never even came close to having my ***** handed to me. In fact I regularly was on the opposing side of a boarded neuropsychologist in the area and feedback typically indicated that my testimony was more convincing. My practice has grown since I was boarded as IME companies came calling more often. I have no website and only rely on the AACN and ABPP website for advertising as well as local word of mouth. Keep in mind this is a part time practice (2-4 medico-legal cases a month with a lot of variability).

Well obviously one can't generalize. But my understanding is that the nature of forensic practice has been shifting and the expectation is quickly becoming that expert witnesses be board certified. Of course, board certification does not guarantee the best testimony, but it is one less thing that could be used against someone.

I'm early career and the pressure is to get boarded right away (whether that is from mentors, credentialing for jobs, etc), while I know that some of my mentors waited many years to do so decades ago when they were my age. Just the nature of the profession these days, as far as I know.

I have no interest in forensic practice. My opinion here just reflects how I was taught about it during my externship/internship/postdoc training.

 

[PHD12]

Does anyone know if board certification is helpful when it comes to worker's compensation work, BMED or for a psychotherapy specialization?

 

[VAneurodoc]

Well obviously one can't generalize. But my understanding is that the nature of forensic practice has been shifting and the expectation is quickly becoming that expert witnesses be board certified. Of course, board certification does not guarantee the best testimony, but it is one less thing that could be used against someone.

I'm early career and the pressure is to get boarded right away (whether that is from mentors, credentialing for jobs, etc), while I know that some of my mentors waited many years to do so decades ago when they were my age. Just the nature of the profession these days, as far as I know.

I have no interest in forensic practice. My opinion here just reflects how I was taught about it during my externship/internship/postdoc training.

The pressure is to maintain standards in the field. I pressure my interns I used to pressure my postdocs. My post was in reference to the indication that somehow not being boarded results in major problems during testimony, which it does not if training is adequate. Being pressured to get boarded from mentors etc... is something different entirely, not necessary bad. You might have been told this as part of the pressure. I was told it when I was coming out of postdoc (mid 2000's) but it was not at all true. Like I said, business is better and testimony is about 10 minutes shorter due to not having to review credentials. Now if your training is not consistent with DIV40 or non-standard, things can get hairy.

 

[VAneurodoc]

Does anyone know if board certification is helpful when it comes to worker's compensation work, BMED or for a psychotherapy specialization?

What kind of worker's comp? IME's? Yes. Half my private practice is worker's comp IME's. Before boarded I rarely got these. I assume it also depends on your location and competetion. For therapy, I do not know if it would matter.

 

[Pragma]

The pressure is to maintain standards in the field. I pressure my interns I used to pressure my postdocs. My post was in reference to the indication that somehow not being boarded results in major problems during testimony, which it does not if training is adequate. Being pressured to get boarded from mentors etc... is something different entirely, not necessary bad. You might have been told this as part of the pressure. I was told it when I was coming out of postdoc (mid 2000's) but it was not at all true. Like I said, business is better and testimony is about 10 minutes shorter due to not having to review credentials. Now if your training is not consistent with DIV40 or non-standard, things can get hairy.

Well yes, board certification is about a lot more than forensic work, obviously. I intend to get boarded. That's not really an issue for me and I recognize why it helps our field. I am not sure if you read my response any differently - I was pointing out that my mentors (all of which were boarded) didn't all do it right away, although now it seems the field is shifting in that direction.

Just acknowledging the many anecdotes about non-boarded people having to acknowledge that they are not boarded on the stand. I also get the sense that it didn't matter as much in the past as it does now, but feel free to correct that (as you seem to have). As far as I know, it is advisable to get boarded if you want to get into forensic work. But you seem to feel differently, and if you think that early career folks can get into forensic work before getting boarded, I'm obviously not going to argue with you (as I could care less about forensic work). It is just different than what I have been told by other boarded neuropsychologists.

I feel myself getting annoyed talking about forensic work. I wish I hadn't said anything.

 

[VAneurodoc]

As far as I know, it is advisable to get boarded if you want to get into forensic work. But you seem to feel differently,

I do not feel differently. I think all neuropsychs should be boarded regardless of the work setting. I was only correcting your statement about people getting their ***** handed to them for not being boarded. I have only been boarded for 2 and have been doing medico-legal work for a little over 5.

 

[Pragma]

I do not feel differently. I think all neuropsychs should be boarded regardless of the work setting. I was only correcting your statement about people getting their ***** handed to them for not being boarded. I have only been boarded for 2 and have been doing medico-legal work for a little over 5.

Okay, then we agree that getting boarded is advisable.

 

[VAneurodoc]

Okay, then we agree that getting boarded is advisable.



Aside from telling everyone that you were smarter than the boarded folks at that time, I don't see the point of your earlier comment. I'm sure you are an exceptional neuropsychologist, but I wonder if other readers might say "Okay, not pursuing board certification won't keep me from kicking a&% in legal cases - and in fact, I might embarrass some boarded folks with my mad skillz." Might be worth clarifying if you think it is advisable or that your average neuropsychologist fresh out of postdoc ought to "test the forensic waters" before pursuing board certification. Perhaps it is okay for the truly exceptional ones?

Wow. That is what you got out of my post. Interesting.

 

[VAneurodoc]

For the others on this thread considering medico-legal work, I simply wanted to clarify that it is totally possible to do forensic neuropsych work prior to board certification and you will not be destroyed on the stand assuming you have competent training, i.e., are board eligible. Board certification will definitely have its benefits but largely related to number of cases and fees. If you are a good expert witness after being boarded you were a good one before and there will not be a major difference.

 

[Pragma]

Wow. That is what you got out of my post. Interesting.

Well, my complaints about my subspeciality generally have to do with the spitting contests and egos. The earlier post reinforced that a little bit. I am sorry for overreacting some there. Really, I just wanted to reinforce what I have heard countless times - that getting board certified is the way to go if you want to be successful in this area, and lacking this credential can sometimes be used against you in cases. But I'll shut about forensic work since I don't do it.

 

[neuronic]

For the others on this thread considering medico-legal work, I simply wanted to clarify that it is totally possible to do forensic neuropsych work prior to board certification and you will not be destroyed on the stand assuming you have competent training, i.e., are board eligible. Board certification will definitely have its benefits but largely related to number of cases and fees. If you are a good expert witness after being boarded you were a good one before and there will not be a major difference.

Everything is possible in theory. In practice, the number of cases and fees you get which makes your business thrive is dependent on certification. You can be boarded and be awful, and you will likely still get more referrals than someone not boarded, so it is something worth doing. It really is not a bad process, almost lazy if you do not do it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Everything is possible in theory. In practice, the number of cases and fees you get which makes your business thrive is dependent on certification. You can be boarded and be awful, and you will likely still get more referrals than someone not boarded, so it is something worth doing. It really is not a bad process, almost lazy if you do not do it.

I'd imagine it's going to vary to some degree by location, although in general, it does seem that (as I said above, and as VAneurodoc has mentioned) being boarded increases the number of cold calls you receive. Although also as VAneurodoc mentioned, if you have a reputation for being a competent/"good" expert witness, whether or not you're boarded may fall by the wayside to some degree (unless the state requires that expert witnesses share similar credentials).

My grad school advisor, for example, conducted a good bit of forensic work and was never boarded. Although as Pragma has mentioned, the way things seem to be going, board certification certainly seems to be becoming the norm in forensic neuropsych work (and across the board in general, about which I'm happy). I believe VAneurodoc's point was just that not being boarded of course won't disqualify you from forensic work, and if you're early career and not yet boarded, doing forensic work is still possible, you might just have to spend some additional time explaining your credentials (which should at the least make you board-eligible).

In the end, though, I think many of us here are in favor of the boarding process (I know I strongly am).

 

[Pragma]

I'd imagine it's going to vary to some degree by location, although in general, it does seem that (as I said above, and as VAneurodoc has mentioned) being boarded increases the number of cold calls you receive. Although also as VAneurodoc mentioned, if you have a reputation for being a competent/"good" expert witness, whether or not you're boarded may fall by the wayside to some degree (unless the state requires that expert witnesses share similar credentials).

My grad school advisor, for example, conducted a good bit of forensic work and was never boarded. Although as Pragma has mentioned, the way things seem to be going, board certification certainly seems to be becoming the norm in forensic neuropsych work (and across the board in general, about which I'm happy). I believe VAneurodoc's point was just that not being boarded of course won't disqualify you from forensic work, and if you're early career and not yet boarded, doing forensic work is still possible, you might just have to spend some additional time explaining your credentials (which should at the least make you board-eligible).

In the end, I think many of us here are in favor of the boarding process, though (I know I strongly am).

Being board-eligible is another interesting distinction. I'm board-eligible, but really that seems to carry little weight in my day-to-day life. I have heard that in some states, they may require "board-eligible" status in order to use neuropsych billing codes, but that is certainly not widespread. We as a field have no legal teeth to enforce who can call themselves a neuropsychologist.

So what about the people that just get licensed without completing a 2-year postdoc in neuro or alternative pathways to eligibility, but still call themselves neuropsychologists (you know, the ones we all think have been ruining the profession)? If you are working on a forensic case and not being board-certified is not a barrier, then why would not being board-eligible be a barrier?

Just curious, as in the eyes of the law we are all the same with our state licenses. I know we can point to ABPP-CN eligibility to give our testimony more weight, but I suppose someone else could point to their alternative training/experience.

 

[VAneurodoc]

Everything is possible in theory. In practice, the number of cases and fees you get which makes your business thrive is dependent on certification. You can be boarded and be awful, and you will likely still get more referrals than someone not boarded, so it is something worth doing. It really is not a bad process, almost lazy if you do not do it.

I never said people shouldn't get boarded. Look back at my posts, I recommend it for everyone. I think it should be standard for the field. I am boarded through ABPP/ABCN. I do mock boards with my interns to help prepare them for the process. No one supports it more than me.

I did a lot of forensic work prior to being boarded. My goal was always to get boarded and I did. My practice has grown since, as I have stated before. I was responding to the incoccrect notion that you cannot do forensic work or be a good expert witness unless you are boarded. Is it easier and more lucrative if you are boarded? Yes. Will you have your a$% handed to you as has been suggested? Not if you are reasonably component. I am just relaying my own experience which is doing forensic work both as a boarded and non-boarded neuropsychologist. That is all.

 

[Pragma]

I never said people shouldn't get boarded. Look back at my posts, I recommend it for everyone. I think it should be standard for the field. I am boarded through ABPP/ABCN. I do mock boards with my interns to help prepare them for the process. No one supports it more than me.

I did a lot of forensic work prior to being boarded. My goal was always to get boarded and I did. My practice has grown since, as I have stated before. I was responding to the incoccrect notion that you cannot do forensic work or be a good expert witness unless you are boarded. Is it easier and more lucrative if you are boarded? Yes. Will you have your a$% handed to you as has been suggested? Not if you are reasonably component. I am just relaying my own experience which is doing forensic work both as a boarded and non-boarded neuropsychologist. That is all.

I don't think I said either of those things. To be fair to me, I also said "can" get your a&* handed to you (not in absolute terms).

Aside from the benefits, really the way I understand it is that if you are NOT board certified, you can get your a$% handed to you on the stand. More of a prerequisite to good cases and ongoing consultations than a benefit.

My point was that I've heard a lot of people have gotten a lot of crap on the stand for not having ABPP-CN credentials. It had more to do with how lawyers treated your credibility than the quality of your testimony. Perhaps prerequisite wasn't the best choice of words, although I think you've reinforced my point and others have noted that really to have a sustained and lucrative practice in this area, getting board certified is the way to go.

 

[VAneurodoc]

I don't think I said either of those things. To be fair to me, I also said "can" get your a&* handed to you (not in absolute terms).



My point was that I've heard a lot of people have gotten a lot of crap on the stand for not having ABPP-CN credentials. It had more to do with how lawyers treated your credibility than the quality of your testimony. Perhaps prerequisite wasn't the best choice of words, although I think you've reinforced my point and others have noted that really to have a sustained and lucrative practice in this area, getting board certified is the way to go.

Fair enough.

To be fair to me, I said you were not entirely correct and only made the point that appropriately trained NPs can do forensic work with little difficulty based on my personal experience in the field.

I totally agree with your other point. We do have to consider that boarding is time consuming and expensive. Life happens and I know people that just have not been able to pool their resources and get through the process. Life happens. Some of them still have very successful forensic careers. I mean recently not in the 'old days."