APMA Salary Survey - States in Demand

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Do you know roughly how many ACFAS fellows there are off the top of your head? Curious what proportion of the underlying statistical universe this covers, but not near my work computer.
ACFAS claims 8000 "members", not sure how many fellows. Members include all those board qualified and resident and student members too. Fellows must be board certified by ABFAS, and there are less than 7000 active and not all choose to be fellows of ACFAS. If you want the real number, I would just email them and ask how many eligible fellows were sent the survey. They shouldn't have any reason to keep that a secret if the compensation report is to be relied upon.
 
...do you think survey-takers are a representative sample of any given income survey? In other words, you have a sub-population of DPMs (or plumbers or barbers or statisticians etc) that is more conscientious than the general population, and because of that they self-select into filling out the survey. ...
100%....

This is a certainty.

Anyone taking the survey would be higher income (wants to show off and/or more interested... discussed a few times above).
SDN would be higher (more interested in podiatry than avg DPM).
ACFAS would be far higher (passed the boards that others failed or didn't take, higher trained).
AAPPM would be higher (more interested, more money savvy).
 
Here are the DPM demographics numbers of practice types for New Mexico...

I rounded up on any borderline podiatrist job types or setups, so hospital and IHS and MSG are inflated.
-gave more than a few non-op DPMs credit for "hospital" and "IHS" if that's technically their employ
-gave some "ortho group" even if it's more DPMs than orthos in the "ortho group" or just 1+1 group
-gave some "MSG" when they're basically just renting a space under a roof of a tiny medical center

For the 6 or so current fellows, I put them as associates of PP since they're basically low wage employees seeing patients in the group... almost half are doing non-ACFAS non-Cpme "fellowships" in private practice... kinda sad. If they were done with fellowship and moved for job yet license active in NM, they go in "not in state" category.

The "not in state" are ones who moved away and now practice elsewhere, they are clearly retired (I left them in their active category if unsure), or they hold onto the license yet are clearly moved on - or never were - in NMex.

150 total podiatrist licenses for NMex:

Associate of supergroup = 14 (11.4% ...all one supergroup as it's a small state, supergroup is VC run from another state)
Associate of private practice = 32 (26.0%)
___ Associate of podiatry group types overall = 46 (37.4%)
Associate of ortho group = 7 (5.7%)
Employed multi-spec group = 10 (8.1% ...generous on this, most "MSG" are just basically pod mini-supergroups from CO or NM)
____ 63 pods employed office or group (51.2%)

Owner podiatry group = 12 (9.8% ...let a few groups have multiple "owners" if filing or website said it, tho one is certainly main owner)
Owner solo office = 13 (10.6%)
Owner mobile solo podiatry = 3 (2.4%)
_____ 28 pods owners (22.8%)

IHS = 8 (6.5%)
VA = 5 (4.1%)
Hospital = 19 (15.4% ...only about half of these are real hospitals/systems... many are standalone med centers, some without ORs)
_____ 32 pods facility employed (26.0%)

Not in state NM or clearly retired = 27 (22.0%)

___ Total pods practicing NMex = 123 podiatrists (82.0% of pods licensed for the state)

...Lessons learned:
It took a bit longer than I thought as I had to quick google nearly half of them to confirm practice type, but I had a few surgeries this week and got woken up (my own fault for doing a Friday surgery... dumbest thing ever, learned that back in residency, barely ever do that anymore... no clue why so many pods do it regularly). 🙂

---> Even in a dust bowl state, the vast majority of the "hospital jobs" are rural. If you want them, look there. Call TinyTown hospitals medical centers. I was real surprised how bad the training of many DPMs who had "hospital job" type out in far rural desert towns were, but they probably still get paid ok. Most of the pods who had the jobs at non-govt actual hospitals (OR, ER, etc) had fairly good training and resumes.

Don't do a non-Acfas non-Cpme fellowship. Don't do a non-Acfas fellowship. Yikes.
And when you really think about it, probably don't do a fellowship at all. The fellowships are mostly just a product of the bad job market. Simply start your own office, go to work in an area without non-compete and look for solo or facility employ connects, or try for a good hospital job right away if you have connects and/or elite training, or go for facilities far rural or VA/IHS if you don't. But yeah, what a crap show overall. There are just soooo many of us compared to any specialist MD/DO type. 🤠
 
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Here are the DPM demographics numbers of practice types for New Mexico...

I rounded up on any borderline podiatrist job types or setups, so hospital and IHS and MSG are inflated.
-gave more than a few non-op DPMs credit for "hospital" and "IHS" if that's technically their employ
-gave some "ortho group" even if it's more DPMs than orthos in the "ortho group" or just 1+1 group
-gave some "MSG" when they're basically just renting a space under a roof of a tiny medical center

For the 6 or so fellows, I put them as associates of PP since they're basically low wage employees seeing patients in the group... almost half are doing non-ACFAS non-Cpme "fellowships"... kinda sad. If they were done with fellowship and moved for job yet license active in NM, they go in "not in state" category.

The "not in state" are ones who moved away, clearly retired (I left them in their category if unsure), or hold the license yet are clearly moved on - or never were - in NMex.

150 total podiatrist licenses for NMex:

Associate of supergroup = 14 (11.4% ...all one supergroup as it's a small state, supergroup is VC run from another state)
Associate of private practice = 32 (26.0%)
___ Associate of podiatry group overall = 46 (37.4%)
Associate of ortho group = 7 (5.7%)
Employed multi-spec group = 10 (8.1% ...generous on this, most "MSG" are just basically pod mini-supergroups from CO or NM)
____ 63 pods employed office or group (51.2%)

Owner podiatry group = 12 (9.8% ...let a few groups have multiple "owners" if filing or website said it, tho one is certainly main owner)
Owner solo office = 13 (10.6%)
Owner mobile solo podiatry = 3 (2.4%)
_____ 28 pods owners (22.8%)

IHS = 8 (6.5%)
Hospital = 24 (19.5% ...only about a third or half of these are real hospitals... some are med centers without ORs)
______ 32 pods facility employed (26.0%)

Not in state NM or clearly retired = 27 (22.0%)

___ Total pods practicing NMex = 123 podiatrists (82.0% of pods licensed for the state)

...Lessons learned:
It took a bit longer than I thought as I had to quick google nearly half of them to confirm practice type, but I had a few surgeries this week and got woken up (my own fault for doing a Friday surgery... dumbest thing ever, learned that back in residency, barely ever do that anymore... no clue why so many pods do it regularly). 🙂

---> Even in a dust bowl state, the vast majority of the "hospital jobs" are rural. If you want them, look there. Call TinyTown hospitals medical centers. I was real surprised how bad the training of many DPMs who had "hospital job" type out in far rural desert towns were, but they probably still get paid ok. Most of the pods who had the jobs at actual hospitals (OR, ER, etc) had fairly good training and resumes.

Don't do a non-Acfas non-Cpme fellowship. Don't do a non-Acfas fellowship. Yikes.
And when you really think about it, probably don't do a fellowship at all. The fellowships are mostly just a product of the bad job market. Simply start your own office, go to work in an area without non-compete and look for solo or facility employ connects, or try for a good hospital job right away if you have connects and/or elite training, or go for facilities far rural if you don't. But yeah, what a crap show overall. There are just soooo many of us compared to any specialist MD/DO type. 🤠
Your last sentence is the epitome of why podiatry is a struggle. Don't need 500 a year. Probably barely need 200
 
The number of respondents makes up about five percent of practicing podiatrists. I don’t get it. Misinformation
I did not do an ACFAS fellowship but I find these numbers highly skeptical. There must be some extreme outliers here. When I was busting in private practice I collected 900k. That was about 10 years ago before 15 more podiatrists came to town. I eventually became burnt out and scaled back significantly. However, at 900k i was maybe netting in that average range or 420k.

I understand most of these are likely hospital based but still at some point they need to do enough to generate that type of revenue in order to justify their income. I understand @Retrograde_Nail does more than that but that does not seem like the norm to me. Or maybe I just suck and need to stop taking two afternoons a week off.
 
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I did not do an ACFAS fellowship but I find these number highly skeptical. There must be some extreme outliers here. When I was busting in private practice I collected 900k. That was about 10 years ago before 15 more podiatrists came to town. I eventually became burnt out and scaled back significantly. However, at 900k i was maybe grossing in that average range or 420k.

I understand most of these are likely hospital based but still at some point they need to do enough to generate that type of revenue in order to justify their income. I understand @Retrograde_Nail does more than that but that does not seem like the norm to me. Or maybe I just suck and need to stop taking two afternoons a week off.
I think they're just saying ACFAS fellow as in FACFAS (so members who passed ABFAS cert... not just BQ and AACFAS).
There are something like 7k or 8k total ACFAS members (from 10k+ pods ABFAS cert), and I'm not sure they give the breakdown of what are FACFAS vs AACFAS vs student/resident/fellow training members. My guess would be maybe 4k facfas/2k aacfas/2k training members? Dunno.

It's good income info for negotiations for hospital pods and interesting overall, but it was surely selectively sent. It was a subset. Even if it was sent to all ~4k FACFAS members (still a subgroup of roughly a quarter of DPMs - at most), I don't remember seeing it - and you or your group probably don't either.

...For PP, I agree... I know plenty of PP docs making more than $450k net (and a fair number over $1M), but they are working very hard seeing patients, doing a good amount of "ancillary services," or farming associates... or doing all of those things. But mainly, most DPMs overall are not owners or hospital employed... they're employed non-hospital. It'd be like taking a football NFL player income pool and only sending to QBs.
 
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The numbers simply represent the power of facility money. Its a game of haves and have nots.

-The VA docs got a raise. They aren't affected by exploding health insurance premium prices. You can make more than me at the VA the day you graduate from residency before you've seen a patient or done a case.

-The hospital docs got the 2021 E&M change. No major commercial insurance implemented this for me. I'm sub-Medicare from essentially all commercial insurances except Cigna that my IPA had locked in a decade ago before the 2021 changes even happened.

I've showed the numbers here before. A WHC gets like $400 something for a 11042 through OPPS. I get $120 and it keeps going down. It was $125 last year.

I had a insurance data company pull Aetna data for me. All of the podiatrists in my town are reimbursed bottom quartile, sub-Medicare by Aetna. The only thing fair about Aetna reimbursement is that they reimburse all of us the same in town. We're all trash to them. That's the battle that these organizations should be fighting.
 
I think they're just saying ACFAS fellow as in FACFAS (so members who passed ABFAS cert... not just BQ and AACFAS).
There are something like 7k or 8k total ACFAS members (from 10k+ pods ABFAS cert), and I'm not sure they give the breakdown of what are FACFAS vs AACFAS vs student/resident/fellow training members. My guess would be maybe 4k/2k/2k? Dunno.

It's good income info for negotiations for hospital pods and interesting overall, but it was surely selectively sent. It was a subset. Even if it was sent to all ~4k FACFAS members (still a subgroup of roughly a quarter of DPMs - at most), I don't remember seeing it - and you or your group probably don't either.

...For PP, I agree... I know plenty of PP docs making more than $450k net (and a fair number over $1M), but they are working very hard seeing patients, doing a good amount of "ancillary services," or farming associates... or doing all of those things. But mainly, most DPMs overall are not owners or hospital employed... they're employed non-hospital. It'd be like taking a football NFL player income pool and only sending to QBs.
Oh. Duh. Wow then I’m extremely skeptical. I would think most ACFAS fellows are private practice. I’m an ACFAS fellow in PP and I’m below average I guess. I guess I need to work harder.

If 420 is the average then there should be a surplus of job postings for 300k salary.
 
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Oh. Duh. Wow then I’m extremely skeptical. I would think most ACFAS fellows are private practice. I’m an ACFAS fellow and I’m below average I guess. I guess I need to work harder.

If 420 is the average then there should be a surplus of job postings for 300k salary.
For sure. FACFAS pods are going to make more than average, but even most ACFAS fellows are in PP... but I don't think they were sent the survey (or didn't respond?) if they're working at InStride or FASMA or for regular groups.

Yeah, I'm way below avg. The way I read it, I think $446k is the avg overall ($484k for owner/partner... $414k for associate, lol). I guess the PP pods polled must be Weil Junior, the managing owners of Upperline, senior univ pods who are farming residents/fellows, offices that own a surgery center, and guys doing 200+ amnio grafts yearly?

If you polled the normal Village podiatry grunt workers and pod school faculty and those types of FACFAS guys, they are making below those averages. Even pod school deans don't make that (although some of them failed ABFAS and aren't FACFAS). Regardless, If 446k were a true average, yet we have no DPM job postings for anywhere near that, that's a bit of a contradiction. No doubt about that.

It's inconsequential in the end, but it's misleading (which is probably the point?).
 
How is it misinformation? It's a representative sample size. You're never going to get 100%.

The real question is who is in the sample, but ACFAS broke it down by practice type to give you more information. For example, the VA-employed podiatrists averaged far lower at $263k.

I know there are bad jobs out there. I see them offered to residents. I steer them away from those jobs.

The ongoing Marit survey and this ACFAS report are far larger than the sample sizes in MGMA (and AAMC). We should be applauding these studies and using them to negotiate.
I just sat down with my administrator trying negotiate a higher dollar amount per RVU than I am currently getting. We just had this conversation. They would never use or consider the Marit or ACFAS salary surveys. Every hospital uses MGMA and Sullivan Cotter. Every hospital.

Every hospital admin knows they can fill a podiatry position very easily. Even in states where people do not consider highly desirable (where I live). Every DPM hospital job is flooded with applications. These people are not naive or dumb. If they are then the hospital system is probably one of the few independent community hospitals in the USA and is probably not a great place to practice to begin with.

The point is that these surveys only represent a small faction of the profession. I said it before I will say it again. When you are successful you want everyone to know about it. These are the people taking the time to fill out the surveys. If you are podiatrist and people call you a doctor and you only make 100-125K per year it is not something you broadcast to everyone.

These arguments are pointless. How about we post the standard contract of Upperline health and this would clearly show what they are willing to pay a podiatrist. I've seen one of their contracts. It's about 140-160K base salary with an impossible bonus structure. So above average what you could get from a stand alone private practice but the design of the contract is to make the owners a ton of money where the associate works hard with a vague path to partnership. A tail as old as time.

When these supergroups exist and are paying these figures and the majority of podiatrists are in private practice it pretty much NEGATES any numbers Marit, ACFAS or APMA produces because these surveys are capturing about 5% of the profession.

The spread on salaries for podiatry is EXTREME. The profession wants to attract students but this is not the way to do it. Transparency earns people's respect. Not presenting a narrative that only small percentage of resident graduates will achieve.
 
[QUOTE="Retrograde_Nail: Every hospital uses MGMA and Sullivan Cotter. Every hospital.

The point is that these surveys only represent a small faction of the profession.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree they look at MGMA first, but last year’s MGMA dataset had only one hundred and twenty-five podiatrists in it … a far smaller sample size.

I think you can make an argument to consider the other surveys in negotiations. That’s the advice I gave my residents and I help them negotiate.
 
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Yeah, I'm aware of that... but I'd probably cry every lunch break if I scraped wounds and could't wear what I want, hire/fire who I want, set my own hours and days off, had to be a yes-man to an admin. I dunno.
I dont have a dress code. I absolutely got a bad MA canned (this person was not good). I somewhat set my hours as long as its 32/week. Admins adjust my schedule to match my vision of my clinic. My admin is pretty responsive. If I want I can make a work week 4 days instead of 5 but I like that golden carrot right now - 100% production based with up to 30k bonus based on quality metrics.

Not sure these points add up to reality. At least in my situation (which may also not be reality - I dunno but 2nd employed job and similar setup).
 
I dont have a dress code. I absolutely got a bad MA canned (this person was not good). I somewhat set my hours as long as its 32/week. Admins adjust my schedule to match my vision of my clinic. My admin is pretty responsive. If I want I can make a work week 4 days instead of 5 but I like that golden carrot right now - 100% production based with up to 30k bonus based on quality metrics.

Not sure these points add up to reality. At least in my situation (which may also not be reality - I dunno but 2nd employed job and similar setup).
Same
 
Well, it's ACFAS fellows, meaning people who are already board certified by ABFAS and already well along in their career. Also probably an overrepresentation of hospital employed DPMs.

Speaking of selection bias, I have a really meta question for @sdupre_apma : do you think survey-takers are a representative sample of any given income survey? In other words, you have a sub-population of DPMs (or plumbers or barbers or statisticians etc) that is more conscientious than the general population, and because of that they self-select into filling out the survey. But because they're more conscientious than their peers, this also translates into career success and higher income. So they upwardly bias the survey outcome in the process. Is this a significant effect?
@Adam Smasher I'm going to try to respond to this tonight, but I want to read through the nuance of the posts which followed first. There is some fascinating discussion later in this thread.

The short answer is, abso-100%-lutely. The single hardest part of designing a survey and shepherding it through the enumeration process is in reducing the exact form of bias (among other biases) to which you refer.

Some people are more likely to respond than others, it's absolutely true. The key part in survey design is trying to figure out how the factors which might make someone more or less likely to respond to a survey are things that would be correlated (or in some way statistically associated) with your metric(s) of interest. So, would the things which might lead a podiatrist to be more successful at achieving higher compensation be associated with increased or reduced likelihood of response? YES. They might be earlier in their career, swamped, and with less free time to respond. They might be late in their career, be less good at time management, billing, or any of innumerable important soft skills and thus both earning less and less likely to remember to respond (or have time to do so). As people in these conversations mentioned, they might be very successful in their careers and happy to come on here and "brag" as some have asserted.

So, does this make results bad? No, not necessarily. Can it throw off results significantly, sure.

What does this mean for us? We need to do one or more of the following:
(1) measure deviation from the expected general population you're assessing and...
(2) either account-for that deviation and associated weaknesses by weighting results or by reporting results split by the various subpopulations within or...
(3) simply report potential biases and let people make their own educated assertions based on those transparently reported weaknesses
(4) during enumeration, adjust sampling strategy and perform targeted outreach as you see gaps in response occurring
(5) post-enumeration, assess those gaps and do further targeted surveys at populations which might have had reduced response before reporting results
(6) select statistical methods for imputing/bootstrapping/etc. those missing population data based on existing understandings of those populations. There are VERY rigorous and well-supported methods for doing so. In my past work for example, many countries don't acknowledge Kosovo as being an independent nation. As such, many of my component indicators for countries in Eastern Europe didn't have data for Kosovo, so I had to build a rigorous set of imputation models to estimate figures for Kosovo for those countries, based on the relationships between the countries for which we DID have data along with the relationships for those countries and the metrics where Kosovo was tracked.
(7) use statistical methods for our conclusions that themselves account for non-randomness in missing data.

... and looks like I went on a roll and answered more than I planned. Either way the short answer to your meta-question is that you're 100% right, but it's not a problem if you know what you're doing or are at least honest about the flaws in your data.

Warmly,
Sam
 
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Here are the DPM demographics numbers of practice types for New Mexico...

I rounded up on any borderline podiatrist job types or setups, so hospital and IHS and MSG are inflated.
-gave more than a few non-op DPMs credit for "hospital" and "IHS" if that's technically their employ
-gave some "ortho group" even if it's more DPMs than orthos in the "ortho group" or just 1+1 group
-gave some "MSG" when they're basically just renting a space under a roof of a tiny medical center

For the 6 or so current fellows, I put them as associates of PP since they're basically low wage employees seeing patients in the group... almost half are doing non-ACFAS non-Cpme "fellowships" in private practice... kinda sad. If they were done with fellowship and moved for job yet license active in NM, they go in "not in state" category.

The "not in state" are ones who moved away and now practice elsewhere, they are clearly retired (I left them in their active category if unsure), or they hold onto the license yet are clearly moved on - or never were - in NMex.

150 total podiatrist licenses for NMex:

Associate of supergroup = 14 (11.4% ...all one supergroup as it's a small state, supergroup is VC run from another state)
Associate of private practice = 32 (26.0%)
___ Associate of podiatry group types overall = 46 (37.4%)
Associate of ortho group = 7 (5.7%)
Employed multi-spec group = 10 (8.1% ...generous on this, most "MSG" are just basically pod mini-supergroups from CO or NM)
____ 63 pods employed office or group (51.2%)

Owner podiatry group = 12 (9.8% ...let a few groups have multiple "owners" if filing or website said it, tho one is certainly main owner)
Owner solo office = 13 (10.6%)
Owner mobile solo podiatry = 3 (2.4%)
_____ 28 pods owners (22.8%)

IHS = 8 (6.5%)
VA = 5 (4.1%)
Hospital = 19 (15.4% ...only about half of these are real hospitals/systems... many are standalone med centers, some without ORs)
_____ 32 pods facility employed (26.0%)

Not in state NM or clearly retired = 27 (22.0%)

___ Total pods practicing NMex = 123 podiatrists (82.0% of pods licensed for the state)

...Lessons learned:
It took a bit longer than I thought as I had to quick google nearly half of them to confirm practice type, but I had a few surgeries this week and got woken up (my own fault for doing a Friday surgery... dumbest thing ever, learned that back in residency, barely ever do that anymore... no clue why so many pods do it regularly). 🙂

---> Even in a dust bowl state, the vast majority of the "hospital jobs" are rural. If you want them, look there. Call TinyTown hospitals medical centers. I was real surprised how bad the training of many DPMs who had "hospital job" type out in far rural desert towns were, but they probably still get paid ok. Most of the pods who had the jobs at non-govt actual hospitals (OR, ER, etc) had fairly good training and resumes.

Don't do a non-Acfas non-Cpme fellowship. Don't do a non-Acfas fellowship. Yikes.
And when you really think about it, probably don't do a fellowship at all. The fellowships are mostly just a product of the bad job market. Simply start your own office, go to work in an area without non-compete and look for solo or facility employ connects, or try for a good hospital job right away if you have connects and/or elite training, or go for facilities far rural or VA/IHS if you don't. But yeah, what a crap show overall. There are just soooo many of us compared to any specialist MD/DO type. 🤠
This is awesome, thanks @Feli . I appreciate you putting in the time to do this. I'm going to use this in a few minutes actually as an ad hoc ground truthing for my workforce size estimation model for the state.
 
Since this is becoming the data thread, I don’t know if you’ve seen the EM salary survey from this year that’s been linked elsewhere on the forums (link here). Very different practice model, but may be interesting to look at in terms of how other specialties are reporting what they’ve found, likely for contract negotiation purposes.
 
I dont have a dress code. I absolutely got a bad MA canned (this person was not good). I somewhat set my hours as long as its 32/week. Admins adjust my schedule to match my vision of my clinic. My admin is pretty responsive. If I want I can make a work week 4 days instead of 5 but I like that golden carrot right now - 100% production based with up to 30k bonus based on quality metrics.

Not sure these points add up to reality. At least in my situation (which may also not be reality - I dunno but 2nd employed job and similar setup).
It is reality for you... and that's what matters. It's all that matters.
Equally or even more likely, you might thrive in employed jobs... and I did not (wanted to change/improve things - namely my compensation - at every one I had). It's not cookie cutter by any means.

Any employed job totally depends on one's admins. If they give you good staff/colleagues and enough staff, good. If they give you fair hours/call and marketing, good. If they compensate you fair and stick to what you agreed, good. If not, it gets sketchy.

There are plenty of employed jobs which are good. I know many pods who've been happily employed at one place for a decade or even a couple decades. Plenty of pod jobs are not as good (too much call or long hours, admins don't support getting busy/bonus, poor staffing, whatever). Many DPMs burn out at their "dream job" fairly quick (even valedictorians or top residency/fellow grads). Plenty of jobs can even change from good to not good or even from not good to better/good (usually due to change of admins/owners or total buyout of hospital/group/etc).

My point was simply that employed typically has little/no control of many factors, I've been burnt by that... not eager to be in that again. Other people get a great employed situation right out of training... and the rest is history. Ymmv situation... huge variance in DPM incomes, but also job setups.

Mainly, what one DPM values most is probably not what another one values most (income, location, scope, hours, freedom, pathology mix, status/image, potential for expand/promotion, many other factors). One guy might think working Village podiatry or some CAH or VAMC or even HealthDrive is a sweet setup and stay there 30 years while another would barely glance at their contract or would be looking for another job after 6 months of it. PP partner or solo is same... some think "what a nightmare" while others are eager to do it. Ymmv.

You've been there 5mins , still in honeymoon... report back in a year three 🙂
 
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@sdupre_apma Would you think there is an issue if say a survey came back with an average salary of say 450k when there are no jobs posted that list a salary over 200k?
I wish people would stop saying salary. Job listings are for the base salary not what is ultimately paid. Total comp probably not accurate because that brings in benefits ....but total monetary compensation.
 
I wish people would stop saying salary. Job listings are for the base salary not what is ultimately paid. Total comp probably not accurate because that brings in benefits ....but total monetary compensation.
True, and also, as has been stated before, salary (W-2 income) can be low for those in private practice because they can just pay a salary for the max income for payroll taxes and then take dividends from the practice. Also the benefit of expensing many things that would normally be personal expenses to the business.

I don't envy the Stats Bro's job.
 
I wish people would stop saying salary. Job listings are for the base salary not what is ultimately paid. Total comp probably not accurate because that brings in benefits ....but total monetary compensation.
You mean like in the title of the thread?

I guess the point is that if the mean compensation package is 450k, then there should be a surplus of jobs with compensation packages for say 250k-300k with the owners salivating over the idea that they will make 150k-200k off of the new hire.
 
You mean like in the title of the thread?

I guess the point is that if the mean compensation package is 450k, then there should be a surplus of jobs with compensation packages for say 250k-300k with the owners salivating over the idea that they will make 150k-200k off of the new hire.
Yeah, not directed at you n just in general. At the VA/IHS they have a salary that is max comp. At PP associate/supergroup/non owner they have salary closer to max comp because bonus is unachievable. At owner, the salary is made up to avoid taxes / IRA. At hospital the salary is sometimes max comp, sometimes high with production on top. Sometimes hospital salary is very low when only on production. Many different comp models.

For example my starting salary was 300k. Once I switched over to production...now technically my salary is 75k. But overall comp will be 450 plus with production/quality metrics etc.
 
Wow! I'm legitimately shocked by the results of the survey.

Shouldn't they use the median not the mean to help shrug off statistical outliers? They have a chart with percentiles but again 50% is listed as mean/average rather than median salary (I admit my grasp of stats is tenuous at best). I would think that 700+ participants would be enough to nullify this somewhat, but man the results are unexpected. The practice setting with the highest reported average salary is "academic" with 555k! The profs at NYCPM definitely didn't respond to the survey, it seems they are always hiring for 120k.

If the data is correct, I honestly need to rethink my job situation and perhaps my position on podiatry as a poor ROI. I'm shook...
 
@sdupre_apma Would you think there is an issue if say a survey came back with an average salary of say 450k when there are no jobs posted that list a salary over 200k?
Good question. So, I'll address the specific question "would I think that would be an issue?" first and then the implied question "does this make me doubt the ACFAS results" second.

First: Sure, absolutely it could be an indicator of an issue. I would say 1 of 5 things in a vacuum of all other information. 1) there might be wild outliers and average/mean would be problematic. If the top 10% of the respondents make $10,000,000 per year, that could make those lower jobs get overwhelmed in the overall data. This is why it's usually good to also report measures of variance/dispersion in your summary statistics along with point-estimates like a mean; (2) there might be a misunderstanding in the question/how those results are being presented, (see my answer below on the implied question); (3) the results might be wrong; (4) there might be subpopulations at play here, for example the people who are getting those $10,000,000 hypothetical outliers might not be in a position where those <$200K jobs lead. Apples to oranges; and (5) I wonder how they are quantifying compensation. Are they taking into account the multitude of different forms of compensation described by folks in this conversation? I don't know, but I'd be curious.

Now, I'm answering your direct general question, and I am not saying that ANY of that applies here. I'm just answering your direct question on how I might personally interrogate results in what you describe.

Second, your implied question. I can't say if the seeming disparity you mention is a problem as I don't have additional information on the data or results. I can say, the population surveyed is not the general population of podiatrists and shouldn't be treated as such. My understanding is that they were surveying only ACFAS Fellows. These are the results they are reporting for that very distinct subpopulation of DPMs. Are the results valid? No idea, can't say without further information. But, in considering their validity, you need to consider comparing them to appropriate comparators. If that <$200K position is apples-to-apples for a role that an ACFAS Fellow surgeon would be in? Awesome, that's a comparator. If not? Don't consider them in your mental calculus here.
 
This survey is really helpful. Thank you.

Marit: $304,384 vs 2021 mean MGMA $311,580 (no idea what the most recent MGMA says).

I do wish it broke down average wRVU (unless it does somewhere and I missed it).
 
This survey is really helpful. Thank you.

Marit: $304,384 vs 2021 mean MGMA $311,580 (no idea what the most recent MGMA says).

I do wish it broke down average wRVU (unless it does somewhere and I missed it).
Thanks! wRVU detail request noted for the Marit/APMA result reporting. I'll see what I can do.
 
Where are we with importing VA/IHS salaries into the survey? They are not making 300k per year.

Since you are connected to the APMA and some leadership how about so good old fashioned transparency and let’s get some salary offers from private equity supergroups which are making up a large portion of private practice.

Upperline is not offering Salaries remotely close to the Marit survey either. If anything it might be half that (150k) with a bad bonus structure.

The real problem AGAIN with these surveys is that we are still not addressing the elephant in the room which private practice podiatry for a newly minted associate is dreadful and these people need to step forward and enter their salaries to give a true picture of private practice podiatry…but they won’t

So it’s on these super groups (some started by leadership and former APMA presidents) to share what they typically offer. They probably won’t either because leadership wants to continue to create this misleading narrative that everyone gets paid well in this profession.
 
I got an offer from IHS hospital in Gallup NM that paid close to 300k but you would have to live in Gallup NM so there’s that.
 
Where are we with importing VA/IHS salaries into the survey? They are not making 300k per year.

Since you are connected to the APMA and some leadership how about so good old fashioned transparency and let’s get some salary offers from private equity supergroups which are making up a large portion of private practice.

Upperline is not offering Salaries remotely close to the Marit survey either. If anything it might be half that (150k) with a bad bonus structure.

The real problem AGAIN with these surveys is that we are still not addressing the elephant in the room which private practice podiatry for a newly minted associate is dreadful and these people need to step forward and enter their salaries to give a true picture of private practice podiatry…but they won’t

So it’s on these super groups (some started by leadership and former APMA presidents) to share what they typically offer. They probably won’t either because leadership wants to continue to create this misleading narrative that everyone gets paid well in this profession.
So, today is wildly busy, but let me give you a short (and a simplified for brevity) answer.

Where are we with importing those salaries?

So, we're not importing anything into the Marit dataset (what you see on their site). They're going to give us an anonymized version of the dataset once our main data collection period ends in a week or so (a bit longer as they'll need time to finalize and anonymize the results). At that point, we'll start looking at representativeness and data points like the VA/IHS data.

If we look at the number of those salaries in the Marit set and see that it matches proportions of VA/IHS folks in the general DPM population, then we wouldn't add them at this stage as the results would already be representative. It couldn't hurt (as long as we account for any over-representation that adding them would do in that situation), but it wouldn't add much at all in that case and it would delay other results. For one thing, with answers like the one from @Stormblest here, we would need to take the time to validate IHS salary models before doing so.

If they don't look representative, then we would look to importing those salaries into our APMA data. For transparency purposes, we would likely release unadjusted results and then a more-modeled set of results that account for things. That way it's fully transparent what the data looked like when we started and how that changes based on our statistical processes.

This is all in the planning stages though, so can be subject to change, but this is how I would handle those cases in other projects for other populations.
 
So, today is wildly busy, but let me give you a short (and a simplified for brevity) answer.

Where are we with importing those salaries?

So, we're not importing anything into the Marit dataset (what you see on their site). They're going to give us an anonymized version of the dataset once our main data collection period ends in a week or so (a bit longer as they'll need time to finalize and anonymize the results). At that point, we'll start looking at representativeness and data points like the VA/IHS data.

If we look at the number of those salaries in the Marit set and see that it matches proportions of VA/IHS folks in the general DPM population, then we wouldn't add them at this stage as the results would already be representative. It couldn't hurt (as long as we account for any over-representation that adding them would do in that situation), but it wouldn't add much at all in that case and it would delay other results. For one thing, with answers like the one from @Stormblest here, we would need to take the time to validate IHS salary models before doing so.

If they don't look representative, then we would look to importing those salaries into our APMA data. For transparency purposes, we would likely release unadjusted results and then a more-modeled set of results that account for things. That way it's fully transparent what the data looked like when we started and how that changes based on our statistical processes.

This is all in the planning stages though, so can be subject to change, but this is how I would handle those cases in other projects for other populations.
On this point, I want to differentiate between two different types of survey outputs. The first, is what you will see the soonest. A largely non-adjusted reporting of the results direct from respondents. A good report of this type will qualify it that these are the raw responses and make it clear what the limitations there of are. Something like, “results may underestimate the influence of population X”. This output is critical for transparency and for statisticians outside of the organization to use in their own modeling, especially because this is the data that they can adjust in their own ways without already being confounded by the writers adjustments.

Those types of outputs should report things like sample sizes, measures of variation, point estimates like the mean, etc. intricate details of exactly what the methodology was and what your definitions are for each option in a typology. Also, if any data edits were done, for example, grouping single year birthdates into binned groupings, that should be reported.

The next piece, what I think everyone is most interested in, are the model/adjusted/augmented outputs based on that raw survey data, supplemented, and cross-referenced with other sources. THAT reporting is where the imputation of outside values like IHS/VA data would enter the model.

I am emphasizing this because I am concerned that people will see a fast, basic summary statistics type initial survey report and interpret it as “bad” erroneously because of all of the many complications that you all and I have been discussing.

Now, if people fail to qualify future announcements correctly, and say X is the average pay when it’s the unadjusted survey output, call that out as being an improper interpretation of the data. It’s not bad, it’s just the first results from a survey, when all surveys are flawed. It’s that old truism, all estimates are wrong, some are useful. To be useful, we need to know the intricacies of why and how they are “wrong” and then use that information to inform more-nuanced estimates.
 
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