Apparently our worth in wages is questionable...

[CVSstinks]

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A pharmacist I was speaking with this morning relayed a story to me this morning about an incident she had a few weeks ago. She works for CVS and was providing a flu shot to a patient... While she was giving him the injection the customer angrily looked into her eyes and said he couldn't believe how much pharmacists made for what we do. He felt that it was disgusting that we were paid so much for "how little" we do.

People are awesome...

 

[PharmD for Me]

A facilitator for one of my small groups at school told us a story her pharmacist friend posted on Facebook:

She was volunteering at her kid's Halloween party at school. One of the other volunteering moms found out that she was a pharmacist, to which she promptly replied, "oh, you must be good at counting things!" and kept giving her things to count all day. Someone else replied to the post saying that she should have replied, "Yeah, well I can count up to six figures just fine, but after that I have some problems."

Just last night the pharmacy preceptor at the free health care clinic I volunteered at told me this story:

She is teaching an online intro pharmacy class for undergrads, and met with a student about some challenges to grading. At one point he said, "isn't your profession going to become obsolete soon, anyways?" He was an economics major taking the class for an easy two credits.

I find it appalling how quickly people make assumptions about others' professions. I would never go up to someone and say that they are overpaid for what they do or that a monkey could do their job. If anything, people should inquire about what the profession consists of before making assumptions... No matter what that profession is.

AND just because a profession does not require a college degree does not make it less difficult or less important (or the other way around). #stepsdownfromsoapbox

 

[MountainPharmD]

Its our own fault. As a profession we have done a very poor job demonstarting our worth to the public. What does you average customer see when they go to Walgreens or CVS? I assure you 99% of the time its not the Pharmacist. The corporate chains have dumbed things down so much the public expects nothing out of us. I am not surprised at the publics attitude towards us. If I were a customer and my only experiences with pharmacy came from filling prescriptions at Walgreens or CVS I would not have a very high opinion of Pharmacists either.

 

[PharmD for Me]

Its our own fault. As a profession we have done a very poor job demonstarting our worth to the public. What does you average customer see when they go to Walgreens or CVS? I assure you 99% of the time its not the Pharmacist. The corporate chains have dumbed things down so much the public expects nothing out of us. I am not surprised at the publics attitude towards us. If I were a customer and my only experiences with pharmacy came from filling prescriptions at Walgreens or CVS I would not have a very high opinion of Pharmacists either.

^ Exactly. Hopefully things will slowly but surely change with the spreading of MTM services and such. If we don't like it, we have to be the ones to take responsibility and change it!

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

^ Exactly. Hopefully things will slowly but surely change with the spreading of MTM services and such. If we don't like it, we have to be the ones to take responsibility and change it!

What spread of mtm services? There has been almost zero growth in mtm in the retail sector and if you think it is going to grow substantially then you are in for some dissapointment. True, effective mtm works when an amb care pharmacist works directly with providers in clinics or hospital or outpatient pharmacies with access to the EMR.

 

[VCU07]

It has already been said, but Pharmacy is a done unless we as a profession can get off our asses and unite to work for what we want

 

[TemSirolimus]

Pharmacy is not a glory profession. Its adjunctive in the healthcare process. I work in an LTC pharmacy and LPNs (schooled for 10months tops) will put us on hold for ages while we try to clarify things. It is not uncommon to hear - isnt that what the doctor wrote??!!

Once you accept the fact that you are not "king", the job gets very satisfying as well as rewarding. Seeking validation anywhere is a cause in futility.

 

[confettiflyer]

Pharmacy is not a glory profession. Its adjunctive in the healthcare process. I work in an LTC pharmacy and LPNs (schooled for 10months tops) will put us on hold for ages while we try to clarify things. It is not uncommon to hear - isnt that what the doctor wrote??!!

Once you accept the fact that you are not "king", the job gets very satisfying as well as rewarding. Seeking validation anywhere is a cause in futility.

Yep, we need to get over it and do a better job of PR. We're doing a good job internally as a profession and with other professions (as an academic profession as well), but the public still thinks we count pills all day.

Granted, some people think doctors golf all afternoon after seeing patients in the morning.

When people ask about counting pills, i usually give them the "huh...what are you talking about...OH those pharmacies, oh no i do (insert complicated wow factor thing here)"

usual response is "oh wow i didn't know pharmacists did that."

then internally i say "BAM SCHOOLED YOU SON." externally i just move on to the next subject like it ain't no thang.

 

[ACE Rx]

Here's a different perspective to this...

There was a case about a few years back about a patient who handed her pharmacist a prescription given to her by her doctor. However, this pharmacist could barely read the doctor's handwritten and mistakenly and gave the patient the wrong medication. (same type of medication but different dosage forms)

There was another case where the doctor prescribed a medication to a patient. However, the patient had a rare condition where there would be an adverse reaction if that medication would have been fatal if taken.

So, why do pharmacists get paid 6-figure salaries? In the first case, the patient died due to the medication never getting to where it needed to go. Who was found at fault when the case went to court? The pharmacist or the physician? The pharmacist. In the second case, the patient was saved by the pharmacist because the rare drug interaction was prevented. In the end, a pharmacist makes decisions that could ultimately be a life or death decision.

People have no idea what pharmacists do unless they are aware of what it is that they do. We can either educate them on what a pharmacist does, allow a tragedy to occur to know what a pharmacy could have prevented, or let the corporate world and lobbyists degrade and take the profession out from under our feet. I prefer the first choice.

 

[Venicat]

....
There was another case where the doctor prescribed a medication to a patient. However, the patient had a rare condition where there would be an adverse reaction if that medication would have been fatal if taken.
...

Can you share with us the drug and disease in this example?

 

[ACE Rx]

Can you share with us the drug and disease in this example?

No problem. Actually I mis-thought as I was typing this due to turkey day and my edinger-westphal nuclei (parasympathetic activation to zoom in on food) was active. While I reading this thread, I was thinking of Seldane which was used as an anti-histamine. However, certain antibiotics inhibit an enzyme that converts Seldane to its active form. As a result, many people were hospitalized due to this prodrug building up and causing ventricular cardiac arrhythmias.

Anyway, I just wanted to illustrate that people complain about salaries of pharmacists without knowing what they do and its significance. I personally think that being a pharmacist is definitely rewarding but you won't be reaping any glory unless pharmacy as a profession educates people on why pharmacy is integral to healthcare. In that sense, I believe there is a shortage of pharmacists who are willing to stand up and make a difference in the profession. There will always be jobs available for people who are not lazy and willing to make a difference in what they do. 🙂

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

No problem. Actually I mis-thought as I was typing this due to turkey day and my edinger-westphal nuclei (parasympathetic activation to zoom in on food) was active. While I reading this thread, I was thinking of Seldane which was used as an anti-histamine. However, certain antibiotics inhibit an enzyme that converts Seldane to its active form. As a result, many people were hospitalized due to this prodrug building up and causing ventricular cardiac arrhythmias.

You could have paraphrased wikipedia a little better.....C+ job.😉

 

[Printo]

It has already been said, but Pharmacy is a done unless we as a profession can get off our asses and unite to work for what we want

Very true! Pharmacists need to become politically active. The only way to change the way health care is to lobby for it. APhA and ASHP are pretty pathetic in the grand scheme of things when you look at the other health care professional lobby organizations. The AMA literally runs our health care system.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Our lobby groups are not accomplishing much.

 

[Printo]

In every other health care system in the world, pharmacists have prescriptive authority. Why cant we? Why cant we be recognized as providers? Its mullarkey!

Folks like Walgreens & CVS had the perfect opportunity to push for this when they started their Minute Clinics and what not but they dropped the ball. Why hire a nurse practitioner when you already have a pharmacist, who is equally as qualified and has more education? Makes no sense.

 

[BidingMyTime]

She works for CVS and was providing a flu shot to a patient... While she was giving him the injection the customer angrily looked into her eyes and said he couldn't believe how much pharmacists made for what we do.QUOTE]

She must not be very intimidating. Most people kiss up to the person who is going to poke them with a sharp object. I've been amazed at how a customer can be totally irate and throwing a fit about the long wait to get a flu shot, and then when I finally am able to come out and give them their shot, how apologetic they are all of a sudden.

 

[pfaction]

No problem. Actually I mis-thought as I was typing this due to turkey day and my edinger-westphal nuclei (parasympathetic activation to zoom in on food) was active. While I reading this thread, I was thinking of Seldane which was used as an anti-histamine. However, certain antibiotics inhibit an enzyme that converts Seldane to its active form. As a result, many people were hospitalized due to this prodrug building up and causing ventricular cardiac arrhythmias.

After a few months, I finally came back to post.

😕

So I'm going to leave again. Holy god this post makes me facepalm so hard.

 

[hcp]

She works for CVS and was providing a flu shot to a patient... While she was giving him the injection the customer angrily looked into her eyes and said he couldn't believe how much pharmacists made for what we do.QUOTE]

She must not be very intimidating. Most people kiss up to the person who is going to poke them with a sharp object. I've been amazed at how a customer can be totally irate and throwing a fit about the long wait to get a flu shot, and then when I finally am able to come out and give them their shot, how apologetic they are all of a sudden.

Last year, on a Saturday which was a little busier than normal, this old lady came to get her flu shot and was also throwing a fit about the wait time which was about 20 minutes... Right before I gave her the shot, she said "I can't believe you made me wait this long, the sign outside says [get your flu shot today, NO WAITING], what is your name again..." It doesn't matter if you look intimidating or not, some people are just plain stupid!

 

[ACE Rx]

After a few months, I finally came back to post.

😕

So I'm going to leave again. Holy god this post makes me facepalm so hard.

I fail to see what you are facepalming out. 😕

http://www.rxlist.com/seldane-drug.htm

This is a well-documented case where a drug had to be taken off the market due to a previously unknown dangerous side effect.

And to PumpkinSmasher, I had no idea that was on wikipedia but I would agree I was pretty scatterbrained while typing the other day so I probably deserve that. 😛

 

[jasonkido]

I fail to see what you are facepalming out. 😕

http://www.rxlist.com/seldane-drug.htm

This is a well-documented case where a drug had to be taken off the market due to a previously unknown dangerous side effect.

And to PumpkinSmasher, I had no idea that was on wikipedia but I would agree I was pretty scatterbrained while typing the other day so I probably deserve that. 😛

Ignore Pfaction, check his or her posts to see what I'm talking about......

 

[clachan3]

She works for CVS and was providing a flu shot to a patient... While she was giving him the injection the customer angrily looked into her eyes and said he couldn't believe how much pharmacists made for what we do.QUOTE]

She must not be very intimidating. Most people kiss up to the person who is going to poke them with a sharp object. I've been amazed at how a customer can be totally irate and throwing a fit about the long wait to get a flu shot, and then when I finally am able to come out and give them their shot, how apologetic they are all of a sudden.

I agree, why make the person who is about to poke you with a needle. Such a smart thing to do

 

[StallionRx]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

👍

 

[ACE Rx]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

 

[vaughnpereira]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

Best post ever.

 

[confettiflyer]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

This post is 👍👍👍

Let people walk away thinking they're right...just not worth correcting them or arguing. I think people in our profession, who are usually uptight and require correctness/exactness, forget this art of "letting things go."

 

[BidingMyTime]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

I agree with everyone else. This is a great post! Totally true!

 

[owlegrad]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

As someone who loves jumping on bandwagons, I also love this post. 😍

Pretty sure this thread made thread of the day due to this post. Congratulations. 👍

 

[MountainPharmD]

Who cares what the public thinks? If they knew that many of us were making six figure incomes you would probably have more jealous comments and maybe even an increased risk of legal action when you make a mistake.

I let my patients think whatever they want in regards to how much I make. Some guy mentioned how he gets paid roughly 50k for his job working construction and said "I would imagine your getting the same and looked closely at me to see my reaction"...I just nodded politely and said, "yeah, about that" and he left happy. Had I told him he needed to put a 1 in front of that I think his mouth would have hit the floor and the conversation would have ended very differently.

I also used to have a customer that would go on and on about his BMW and would compare it to my wranger out in the parking lot and tell me how i must not be able to wait to move up to something better . I would just nod and say, yup- maybe in a couple years and he seemed to like that. Never told him I had a Viper back in the garage.

Its better to fly under the radar. If someone wants to think I make 40k and count pills all day thats fine with me. Dont fight the public.

Ummmmm this post total misses the point and contributes nothing to the original discussion. No one was talking about the actual money we make. We were talking about the publics perception of our
value. The publics perception is everything. Someone has to see value in what we do for us to survive.The government, PBMs, and corporate retail chains do not value us.

 

[pezdispenser]

This post is 👍👍👍

Let people walk away thinking they're right...just not worth correcting them or arguing. I think people in our profession, who are usually uptight and require correctness/exactness, forget this art of "letting things go."

I agree. In fact, "this art of letting things go" is probably an essential attribute for being a successful retail pharmacist...

 

[desklamp]

Hah. My soon-to-be surgeon friend always bags on me about pharmacy. I think last time he said "so when do you think your job will be replaced by a robot?" I promptly asked him if he had heard about the jeopardy robot, Watson, that can diagnose patients using an algorithm 🙂.

But if you think about it he does have a point. Retail pharmacy and sometimes clinical pharmacy does consist of a lot of brainless work. The thing is I feel it's our responsibility to expand pharmacy into a field that strays away from automatic grunt work (which is what people feel does not entitle a 6 figure salary) and more towards patient interaction (or doctor interaction- how cool would it be if every doctor saw their pharmacist as a helpful force that allowed them to focus more on dx rather than someone they feel they have to fight with over rx?).

If the customers at XYZ retail get a huge degree of attention (along with you showing off your medical knowledge) and assistance (some sort of MTM- ensuring pt are up to date on vaccinations, etc that you take the initiative of doing)...maybe they will stop being so ornery about our salaries. the vaccinations are already a huge step in the right direction.

the other thing that may help is to slow this surge of new schools and raise standards for admission and education e.g. making the PCAT mandatory, standardizing pre-reqs, more emphasis on academic performance, pharmacy involvement, and research interests-->making the NAPLEX more similar to USMLE (in steps)? every single graduate is a face of pharmacy so if we have a group of incompetent pharmacists, that will reflect poorly on the entire career. not to mention people tend to place value in careers that take a lot of hard work and preparation to become, whether it's living off 20k stipends for 5 years + 4 years undergrad debts, being on call as an intern for 36 hours, etc. not that pharmacy school isn't hard work but...sometimes it seems more like another 4 years of undergrad. as in, it's just 3 years of didactic with pretty damn nice scheduling (I am not complaining, mind) + 1 year rotation (that tend to be 8-5ish if i am not mistaken- not like surgery rotations) then take NAPLEX which you just have to pass, and law exam and BAM 6 figs. I mean you don't even need a bachelors in some cases-- you could totally avoid 2 years of undergrad debt and come out making 100k.

that's just my 2 cents.

 

[confettiflyer]

making the NAPLEX more similar to USMLE (in steps)? every single graduate is a face of pharmacy so if we have a group of incompetent pharmacists, that will reflect poorly on the entire career. not to mention people tend to place value in careers that take a lot of hard work and preparation to become, whether it's living off 20k stipends for 5 years + 4 years undergrad debts, being on call as an intern for 36 hours, etc. not that pharmacy school isn't hard work but...sometimes it seems more like another 4 years of undergrad. as in, it's just 3 years of didactic with pretty damn nice scheduling (I am not complaining, mind) + 1 year rotation (that tend to be 8-5ish if i am not mistaken- not like surgery rotations) then take NAPLEX which you just have to pass, and law exam and BAM 6 figs. I mean you don't even need a bachelors in some cases-- you could totally avoid 2 years of undergrad debt and come out making 100k.

that's just my 2 cents.

If pharmacy were like that, I would have just ponied up and gotten an MD. I partly picked pharmacy for the great work-life balance ahead (40-50hrs a week? hell yeah) and the lower "investment" level required (4 more years after undergrad vs. at least 7+ to become a practicing physician including intern/resi).

I'm all for making pharmacy more clinical, but when you've got this arms race to get an all-mighty "doctor" label in nursing, PT, etc... it's best to stop looking around/modeling your curriculum after something else.

 

[desklamp]

If pharmacy were like that, I would have just ponied up and gotten an MD. I partly picked pharmacy for the great work-life balance ahead (40-50hrs a week? hell yeah) and the lower "investment" level required (4 more years after undergrad vs. at least 7+ to become a practicing physician including intern/resi).

I'm all for making pharmacy more clinical, but when you've got this arms race to get an all-mighty "doctor" label in nursing, PT, etc... it's best to stop looking around/modeling your curriculum after something else.

Well I modeled it after med school because of the amount of respect they receive. they've got to be doing something right in their curriculum. there's nothing there about lengthening the program- 4 years is enough for pharmacy. you aren't operating on anyone and you aren't diagnosing.

i mean, yeah, you don't need 3 steps for NAPLEX but i don't really see the downside of having 1 step for basic therapeutic knowledge/calculations done before rotations, and 1 step for clinical practice skills, or changing the requirements for IPPEs and intern hours (do we really need 3 weeks of filling pill bottles at our community IPPEs + the additional 324243324 work hours filling more pill bottles.) Nor do I see a downside to anybody but those with poor academic records if we raised the standards of admission and made PCATs a requirement for all schools to standardize the applications (yeah i'm looking at you california). a 4.0 at community college or with an econ major is not necessarily > a 3.5 at _____ ivy league school with a mech E degree.

if respect for the profession is not an issue (and it isn't for a lot of pharmacists) then there is no need for change. but i guess i am just saying that respect of whole populations is garnered from selectivity, job complexity, how difficult it was to get to your chosen career, and how much your work visibly affects the lives of others (see: military, physicians, researchers). i feel that currently the pharmacy school standards can be improved (and I do know that many of the more prominent universities are working on this- and many feel the same way).
lets face it we could all use a decrease in the number of new grads that multiply like rabbits every year due to continuous openings of random, private pharmacy schools across the country. i mean you had 4324324 pharm schools in cali already and the committee felt like it'd be a good idea to accredit a new one?

sorry i am ranting now 🙁

I guess i'm not sure what you meant by the "arms race" thing. :/