Applying AGAIN

[teething]

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For the sake of hopefully keeping someone from making the same mistake I did, I will relate the following experience. These are solely MY opinions and therefore take them with a grain of salt.

There has been a lot of talk on whether it is best to attend the "most affordable" dental school, or go where you will be happiest. With that in mind, I'll share my experience:

I always thought that I wanted to go to the UW SOD. It was a dream. Why? I really can't say. Maybe it was the prestige, or maybe because it was close to home, it also could have been because half the dentists I knew graduated from there. Anyhow, UW was the ONLY dental school as far as I was concerned. That all changed in January, though. Late December, I became scared that I wouldn't be accepted anywhere so I decided to complete my application to Arizona. Fortunately, I was invited to an interview two days before I found out that I was accepted to UW (or else I wouldn't have gone at all!) Going to Arizona changed everything. Never had I even fathomed that I would consider turning down UW.....no, not UW!!! But, I wished I had. Instead, my wife and I talked ourselves into believing that money was everything. It became the ONLY reason I choose to attend UW; less tuition.

With that said, let me say that I am now trying to remedy the situation the hard way. I am in the application cycle again. I have heard it said on this form, "Every school will provide the student with an excellent dental education; the ADEA insures that." Although that is true, it is important that you choose an atmoshphere, school, program, etc. that fits your "personality" (wahtever that may be). Because when it comes right down to it:
Happiness is Priceless.

 

[PERFECT3435]

very well said teething.

i totally agree with you and i was also told the same thing by 2 different Dir. of Admissions that you should go where you fit best.
i was told that if i get multiple acceptance and am not sure of where to go, i could always contact the dir of adm at schools and ask for their advice.

i know many of us are scared of the adcom people, but many of them are truly nice and will be there to help.

lets hope that we get to the point where we would actually have to pick where we would wanna go.
God wouldn't that be my best day ever trying to decide where to go?🙂

 

[ItsGavinC]

Teething, welcome back buddy 😉

 

[Bickle]

Originally posted by teething
For the sake of hopefully keeping someone from making the same mistake I did, I will relate the following experience. These are solely MY opinions and therefore take them with a grain of salt.

There has been a lot of talk on whether it is best to attend the "most affordable" dental school, or go where you will be happiest. With that in mind, I'll share my experience:

I always thought that I wanted to go to the UW SOD. It was a dream. Why? I really can't say. Maybe it was the prestige, or maybe because it was close to home, it also could have been because half the dentists I knew graduated from there. Anyhow, UW was the ONLY dental school as far as I was concerned. That all changed in January, though. Late December, I became scared that I wouldn't be accepted anywhere so I decided to complete my application to Arizona. Fortunately, I was invited to an interview two days before I found out that I was accepted to UW (or else I wouldn't have gone at all!) Going to Arizona changed everything. Never had I even fathomed that I would consider turning down UW.....no, not UW!!! But, I wished I had. Instead, my wife and I talked ourselves into believing that money was everything. It became the ONLY reason I choose to attend UW; less tuition.

With that said, let me say that I am now trying to remedy the situation the hard way. I am in the application cycle again. I have heard it said on this form, "Every school will provide the student with an excellent dental education; the ADEA insures that." Although that is true, it is important that you choose an atmoshphere, school, program, etc. that fits your "personality" (wahtever that may be). Because when it comes right down to it:
Happiness is Priceless.

I dont get it. You said you were accepted to UW, so why are you re-applying? Did you turn them down?😕

 

[teething]

let's just say that the UW class of 2007 started with 55 students and now there are 54!

be happy!

 

[Bickle]

Originally posted by teething
let's just say that the UW class of 2007 started with 55 students and now there are 54!

be happy!

Ohh ok... gotcha.

One more question: did you considering transfering out of UW rather than dropping out?

 

[ohcdn]

can i ask what it was that you didnt like about uw? and also i can imagine that you'd really have to convince other schools that you wont do the same to them. but im sure if you tell them the same thing on your post they'll understand. good luck and go for what makes you happiest

 

[Comet208]

Teething,

I totally agree with you as well. would you share with us what was it that made you change your mind about your dream school? were there any misconceptions about the school or their program??

i am also wondering if you could have transfered to another school instead of leaving and trying to go through the whole process again.

wish you best of luck.

Comet

 

[wise146]

I agree for the most part, but being 20K-50K less debt when you graduate can help you reach happiness quicker in the long run.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by wise146
I agree for the most part, but being 20K-50K less debt when you graduate can help you reach happiness quicker in the long run.

Why? Because happiness means having money?

 

[momowheels]

Originally posted by aphistis
Why? Because happiness means having money?

yes

 

[arns51]

Originally posted by aphistis
Why? Because happiness means having money?

Maybe, maybe not. But im sure you will be happier and less stressed once you get your loans payed off and are living much more comfortabley. And that extra 20-50K will add more years until you are able to reach that point.

 

[critterbug]

Originally posted by aphistis
Why? Because happiness means having money?

I don't think that is necessarily what he/she meant. I don't know about ya'll, but debt scares me. It always has. Maybe it was just the way I was raised, I don't know? But more debt can cause more stress in your life either by worrying about paying it off or it affecting what loans you can get in the future.

Alot of people don't like the *idea* of being in debt more than actually being in debt. Does that make sense? Sounds kinda confusing I know.

Making a whole lot of money isn't everything in life. But being in massive debt and being financially "strapped" can take its toll on ya.

However, since we are all entering this great profession of dentistry, we should all tell ourselves that debt doesn't matter. But, sometimes its hard to come to grips with that.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Debt is debt, and debt is serious, but do NOT confuse yourselves into thinking that our educational debt is the same as consumer debt.

Educational debt is an investment, and should be treated as such: good research, good planning, and logical thinking.

Consumer debt is just evil and brings many peeps crashing down.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by ItsGavinC
Debt is debt, and debt is serious, but do NOT confuse yourselves into thinking that our educational debt is the same as consumer debt.

Educational debt is an investment, and should be treated as such: good research, good planning, and logical thinking.

Consumer debt is just evil and brings many peeps crashing down.

Absolutely. Particularly with education loan interest rates being what they are, *I'll* certainly be in no hurry to go rushing to pay off my student loans. Government education loans have artificially low interest rates, so you can bet your backside I'll be making minimum payments while I invest the rest of that money at a higher interest rate.

Then, when the loans are paid off, the lender is happy that they got plenty of interest profit, and *I'm* happy that I paid my loans off the same as if I'd done it all in a year or two, except now I have an extra few percent to put in my pocket that I wouldn't have had before. Yes, debt isn't something to take on lightly, but it's not something to be phobic of either. Be smart about how you respond to it, and you can come out ahead.

 

[ItsGavinC]

SWEEEEEET post. Yummy.

 

[ShawnOne]

Originally posted by aphistis
Absolutely. Particularly with education loan interest rates being what they are, *I'll* certainly be in no hurry to go rushing to pay off my student loans. Government education loans have artificially low interest rates, so you can bet your backside I'll be making minimum payments while I invest the rest of that money at a higher interest rate.

Then, when the loans are paid off, the lender is happy that they got plenty of interest profit, and *I'm* happy that I paid my loans off the same as if I'd done it all in a year or two, except now I have an extra few percent to put in my pocket that I wouldn't have had before. Yes, debt isn't something to take on lightly, but it's not something to be phobic of either. Be smart about how you respond to it, and you can come out ahead.

Bill, your in a public school and expect to have 120k'ish in debt when your done (amongst the lowest $ in the country) . In your case, repayment will be downright easy given your income once your a dentist. Your monthly payment (6% average interest, 10 years, no interest accrued while in school) will be about $1,300/mon.

For people who are going to private school, the expected debt will be 200k-320k. Thats a huge difference. Those people have a huge burden on their shoulders and the repayment amount of about $3,500/mon. It's just a bigger burden, and makes it that much harder to get a private practice up and running. Given this, you can still make it, so debt should not be a detourant to dental school. It is an investment 100%, but the fruits of your labor will be harder to keep for the first few years.

Also, I dont think you'll be able to pay the minimum back on your loans and "invest" at a higher interest rate. Aren't these interest rates variable? Once the economy picks up and the interest rates for investments rise, so will the interest rate on your loans. And currently, getting a guaranteed return of 1% is good, and I am pretty sure your loans will be more than that. Now investing the money back into your practice where you can make HUGE returns , thats an idea!!

 

[critterbug]

Another good post.

Indeed, investing in your own practice is one of the best investments you'll ever make. ANd, if I'm not mistaken, its tax deductible 😉

 

[drPheta]

I'm in that 200-300K debt bracket. Frankly, I'm not terribly worried about it. I said it once and I'll say it again.

As a practicing dentist who can make $125,000 over 20 years on average with a $300K will live as if he is working a $60,000 job after paying taxes and the loan (minimum payments with a 7% unsubsidized loan). This is just a simple and general mathematical calculation on my part, but It shows me that I will be able to live like a normal middle class person with the career I'm extremely happy with. Besides, I can live without a gigantic house, or the next new "toy" that BMW made.

Another way to manage this huge debt is to marry someone else who's going to make money 😀

Beyond the debt scheme of things and back to this topic that the OP started....

I was impressed with Nova, but a few weeks after the interview I was already hoping another school would accept me. When I walked away from the Tufts interview, I was very happy. I felt the same way walking away from my BU interview.

With much thought, and comparing of the two schools...I was settled with BU for a short time. But something made me feel odd about my decision. So, I thought more about the two schools and went back to the basics..

How do I feel about the school itself. Forget the "new" sim labs, forget the board scores...just think about how it felt to interview there.

You can see where I am now, and I am very happy. Beyond the cost of education (which is important), pick a school that you will succeed in. There's no point in being unhappy with something this important.

 

[aphistis]

(Sorry for using this format, but it's the easiest way to respond at length to different aspects of a post)

Originally posted by ShawnOne
Bill, your in a public school and expect to have 120k'ish in debt when your done (amongst the lowest $ in the country) . In your case, repayment will be downright easy given your income once your a dentist. Your monthly payment (6% average interest, 10 years, no interest accrued while in school) will be about $1,300/mon.

I'm curious where you got the $120,000 number. Personally, I'll come out with $30k or so, thanks to the National Guard, so this is largely an execise in hypotheticals for me. The average resident IUSD graduate, however, will be toting ~$160,000, and I believe it's a little over $200,000 for nonresidents. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to disparage me for coming through school with so little debt; my military service and IUSD attendance are very important components of my financial planning, for the reasons you cited, and not simply random events that happened to turn out in my favor.

For people who are going to private school, the expected debt will be 200k-320k. Thats a huge difference. Those people have a huge burden on their shoulders and the repayment amount of about $3,500/mon. It's just a bigger burden, and makes it that much harder to get a private practice up and running. Given this, you can still make it, so debt should not be a detourant to dental school. It is an investment 100%, but the fruits of your labor will be harder to keep for the first few years.

Trust me, it's feasible. Go poll some physicians, dentists, or other professional with high income and high student loan debts. In addition to my response below, a number of physicians recommended this plan to me while I was shadowing in undergrad.

Also, I dont think you'll be able to pay the minimum back on your loans and "invest" at a higher interest rate. Aren't these interest rates variable? Once the economy picks up and the interest rates for investments rise, so will the interest rate on your loans. And currently, getting a guaranteed return of 1% is good, and I am pretty sure your loans will be more than that.

OK, this is where your post really starts going screwy. I hope you're not offended, and I'm sorry if you are, but the last portion of your post simply isn't accurate. I'm not a CPA, but my father and fiancée are both financiers, so I've been taught enough about money to not trip over my own certificates of deposit.

Interest rates are not necessarily variable on investments. CDs, for example, are a simple investment offering a guaranteed rate of return. A guaranteed return of 1% is •not• good. I'm currently receiving more than that on my passbook savings account, which is practically the lowest return you can find this side of a Treasury bill. If I consolidated my loans right this second, I'd have a guaranteed 2.85% interest rate for the entire life of the loan. You can get 4% on a long-term CD right now, and those are pretty conservative investments too, because of the low risk associated with them. It doesn't have to be that hard to arrange your school debts to your maximum advantage.

Now investing the money back into your practice where you can make HUGE returns , thats an idea!!

Right, but at some point you have to start thinking about retirement. I can take every penny I scrabble together and put it into opening a practice, <em>or</em> I can put some of that aside and start earning interest on it earlier--which will pay huge dividends, literally and metaphorically, in a few decades when I'm retiring. Obviously a practice represents a huge moneymaking opportunity, which is why I'm starting early in saving for the future--I'll have ~$3000 in leftover student loan proceeds at the end of this semester, and you can bet it's going into an investment instead of back to Sallie Mae.

Finally, everything I've just put is not to say there's anything wrong with paying off debt immediately. If it puts your mind at ease, that's a benefit unto itself. If you're looking for maximum economic return, however, it's not necessarily the best way to proceed.

 

[ShawnOne]

Here is something we agree on, I dont think there is anything wrong with this format either. Its rather convenient.

I'm curious where you got the $120,000 number. Personally, I'll come out with $30k or so, thanks to the National Guard, so this is largely an execise in hypotheticals for me. The average resident IUSD graduate, however, will be toting ~$160,000, and I believe it's a little over $200,000 for nonresidents. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to disparage me for coming through school with so little debt; my military service and IUSD attendance are very important components of my financial planning, for the reasons you cited, and not simply random events that happened to turn out in my favor.

The 120,000 was based upon an estimate of 15k tuition per year and 15k of living expenses, books, materials etc.. Multiply that times 4 years and you get 120k. I applaud your ability to manage 30k total debt, thats impressive.

Trust me, it's feasible. Go poll some physicians, dentists, or other professional with high income and high student loan debts. In addition to my response below, a number of physicians recommended this plan to me while I was shadowing in undergrad.

Trust you? I dont recall saying it wasnt feasible. Re-read what I wrote, I said repayment would be a bigger burden when you owe 200-320k (Which is the cost of most private schools). Then I said, overall, it should not be a detourant to dental school.

OK, this is where your post really starts going screwy. I hope you're not offended, and I'm sorry if you are, but the last portion of your post simply isn't accurate. I'm not a CPA, but my father and fianc?e are both financiers, so I've been taught enough about money to not trip over my own certificates of deposit.

Actually, this is where your post goes screwy. And I am not offended at all. I was a business major, so I have an idea of what I am talking about too. The average 1 year CD pays 1.30%. If you find a high interest yielding account on the internet (like Netbank) that has low overhead, you will find up to 2%.

Interest rates are not necessarily variable on investments. CDs, for example, are a simple investment offering a guaranteed rate of return. A guaranteed return of 1% is not good. I'm currently receiving more than that on my passbook savings account, which is practically the lowest return you can find this side of a Treasury bill. If I consolidated my loans right this second, I'd have a guaranteed 2.85% interest rate for the entire life of the loan. You can get 4% on a long-term CD right now, and those are pretty conservative investments too, because of the low risk associated with them. It doesn't have to be that hard to arrange your school debts to your maximum advantage.

I never said the interest rate is variable on investments, I said the interest rates on your loans are variable (and capped at about 8%). and savings accounts usually yield 0.25%. Long term CD's (5 years) will yield about 3.5%. So lets say you consolidate your loans right now (which you cant even do until after your done borrowing, at which time you probably WILL NOT get these historic low rates, it will be more like 6% then) at about
3%, and get long term CD's for 3.5 %, congradulations, you just made 0.5%! I have two words for you OPPORTUNITY COST.

I think its clear that what you are suggesting is not feasible. You make much much bigger returns if you just concentrate on investing your money ON YOURSELF!

Right, but at some point you have to start thinking about retirement. I can take every penny I scrabble together and put it into opening a practice, or I can put some of that aside and start earning interest on it earlier--which will pay huge dividends, literally and metaphorically, in a few decades when I'm retiring. Obviously a practice represents a huge moneymaking opportunity, which is why I'm starting early in saving for the future--I'll have ~$3000 in leftover student loan proceeds at the end of this semester, and you can bet it's going into an investment instead of back to Sallie Mae.

This is true and I started my retirement account a year ago when I turned 25. A little money goes in there, and yes, it will compound and add up, But that is not where my focus will be until after I build a well established practice. THAT will be my bread and butter.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

here is a good place for savings: ingDirect

They give me 2%...not a lot but sure as hell better than the local bank with .25%

 

[ShawnOne]

that .25% was lowballed, sorry

Its more lke .40-.60 at a commercial bank.

 

[aphistis]

(you can assume that anything I don't include here and respond to, I agree with)

Originally posted by ShawnOne
The average 1 year CD pays 1.30%. If you find a high interest yielding account on the internet (like Netbank) that has low overhead, you will find up to 2%.

Right, but I just used that as an example. Besides, you know short-term CDs don't pay as well as long-term ones anyway. I found a few different banks tonight that offer 4% on 48-66 month CDs right now. Even those wouldn't be good investments when the economy's in a slump, since the rates fluctuate with economic conditions, and you can find CD rates of 6% and greater in a strong economy (I wish I'd gotten in on some 4-5 year CDs before the tech bubble burst).

I never said the interest rate is variable on investments, I said the interest rates on your loans are variable (and capped at about 8%). and savings accounts usually yield 0.25%. Long term CD's (5 years) will yield about 3.5%.

Yeah, but again, interest rates will fluctuate based on the economic climate, and--this is the biggest pillar of what I'm advocating--they're always kept artificially low thanks to government subsidy, so you can put the money somewhere else and essentially earn back the subsidy amount to put in your own pocket.

So lets say you consolidate your loans right now (which you cant even do until after your done borrowing, at which time you probably WILL NOT get these historic low rates, it will be more like 6% then) at about
3%, and get long term CD's for 3.5 %, congradulations, you just made 0.5%! I have two words for you OPPORTUNITY COST.

This falls under the heading of my immediately previous comments.

I think its clear that what you are suggesting is not feasible. You make much much bigger returns if you just concentrate on investing your money ON YOURSELF!

I'm tempted to ask what making money on your student loans is, if it's not making money on yourself, but I don't want this to turn into a hair-splitting contest.

This is true and I started my retirement account a year ago when I turned 25. A little money goes in there, and yes, it will compound and add up, But that is not where my focus will be until after I build a well established practice. THAT will be my bread and butter.

That's great, and I don't doubt you'll succeed admirably. I won't be saving money at the expense of my practice, since I think we agree that'd be pretty foolhardy, but I'm just trying to get the earliest possible leg up on things for maximum benefit later.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Nope, at Commerce bank last month when I opened the checking acct they told me their savings were .25%

They asked me if I wanted to open it and I kindly declined

I've had ingDriect savings for about 4 years and I remember when they were giving me 6% on my personal savings acct. But its roughly the same now since prime has dropped since then

 

[ShawnOne]

Thats a sweet interest rate on a saving account brochnizer. How do you get access to your money? Are there alot of brick and mortar locations? I think I have only seen it one place (by the 405 freeway).

 

[ShawnOne]

Bill, that's my point, you'd be splitting hairs. Your really not going to make money from reloaning your repayment money. You can, however, take that money and use it to build your practice and increase your monthly bottem line. You'd benefit a lot more.

I dont know any other way of stating this, so I'm done.

 

[NewNameForGoogleBot]

I'm another ING Direct fan and customer. No bricks and mortar for their online savings accounts, but ING is one of the largest, most well respected international banks in the world (based out of the Netherlands - the Dutch are the champs of banking). FDIC insured, etc.

When I was in LA this summer, I showed my wife that building over by the 405/Santa Monica and she felt a bit better about where our money was hanging out It looked to me like that was just an office building.

They link your account with your normal checking account - it's real easy to use. No fees for anything. Type in a dollar amount, whether you want to send it to your checking or from your checking to your savings. Two days later it's transferred.

 

[aphistis]

Originally posted by ShawnOne
Bill, that's my point, you'd be splitting hairs. Your really not going to make money from reloaning your repayment money. You can, however, take that money and use it to build your practice and increase your monthly bottem line. You'd benefit a lot more.

I dont know any other way of stating this, so I'm done.

Fair enough. Nice discussion either way.

 

[ShawnOne]

nice chatting

Let me add one thing, if anybody is going to take out private loans especially, what your suggesting definately wont work.

Thats analagous to taking money out of your credit card and putting it in the stock market. (I did that in 1999 BTW, that was a rare exception)

 

[rcmonkeypie]

Hi, teething:

good luck to you in this application cycle. I hope that you will find a school you see yourself fitting in. let us know your progress. after went on a couple interviews, I realized that how important it is to join a school that I will be happy. Thanks for sharing your story.