Applying for jobs, but on the waitlist

[doe_eyes]

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Hi everyone. I could really use some advice. I have posted this in another thread, but would love to have some more input. I am waitlisted at a school that I would most likely attend if I was called off. The waitlist is not ranked, so I have no way of guessing my chances. I have applied for a couple of jobs and have received interviews at two of them. I'm invited back for a working interview at one. Should I inform them that I am on the waitlist for school? I understand that working there for 2-3 months is a short time, especially since it will take time to just train a new employee. However, I really don't know my chances of being accepted off the waitlist so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot and potentially not get the job because the business wants someone long term (which is understandable). I have been looking for a job since around November of last year (after I finished school), and sent out many resumes/cover letters since then. Basically I'm saying I have been looking for a job for quite some time now, and I am getting to the point where I am a bit desperate to have one, but I am also going through an ethical dilemma on whether or not to disclose my future school plans. I have family members who own their own business, so I understand the hassle of hiring someone new, training them, only for them to leave a couple months after. At my interview, they never brought up the subject of school and the topic honestly just slipped my mind.

Any help and advice would be appreciated. Thank you!

 

[LetItSnow]

Personally, *I* would inform them at some point before you take the job. If it were me I'd do it during the interview process. Put yourselves in their shoes ... think how incredibly frustrating it would be to invest time interviewing, thinking through candidates, selecting you, training you, and then ... "Oops, I'm off to vet school!"

Sure, telling them lowers your chances of getting a job. But it's also the honest thing to do and if they hire you knowing you might be there a short time ... they have no business getting upset if you leave.

If these jobs are in the vet business, then I'd strongly, STRONGLY recommend telling them. This is a small field. They would feel justifiably like you used them, and they wouldn't forget that, and it could bite you in the ass down the road. If I worked in a small practice, and I went through the exhausting process if interviewing/hiring/training, and then someone dropped a "oh yay! i got off the waitlist! i'm going to vet school! kkthxbai!" ... I would be absolutely furious with them. And I wouldn't forget it.

If the jobs aren't in the vet business, then you probably wouldn't be burning any bridges. But it's still the wrong thing to do because it's rude.

Reading between the lines, you know what the right thing to do is - you just don't want to do it. You feel guilty enough about the idea of taking it without full disclosure that you posted here, so ........

 

[ZooVetHopeful]

I would not inform them. Getting off a waitlist is a long shot. But getting a job isn't. If you do (by some miracle) get off a waitlist, your new employer will understand. And they will not have invested too much time and money in you and they can replace you with another recruit. Good luck with your new job!

 

[doe_eyes]

I just want to clarify that I have NOT been offered the job yet. My next step would be a working interview/shadowing. To my knowledge, they are still in the process of interviewing people.

 

[DVMDream]

Personally, *I* would inform them at some point before you take the job. If it were me I'd do it during the interview process. Put yourselves in their shoes ... think how incredibly frustrating it would be to invest time interviewing, thinking through candidates, selecting you, training you, and then ... "Oops, I'm off to vet school!"

Sure, telling them lowers your chances of getting a job. But it's also the honest thing to do and if they hire you knowing you might be there a short time ... they have no business getting upset if you leave.

If these jobs are in the vet business, then I'd strongly, STRONGLY recommend telling them. This is a small field. They would feel justifiably like you used them, and they wouldn't forget that, and it could bite you in the ass down the road. If I worked in a small practice, and I went through the exhausting process if interviewing/hiring/training, and then someone dropped a "oh yay! i got off the waitlist! i'm going to vet school! kkthxbai!" ... I would be absolutely furious with them. And I wouldn't forget it.

If the jobs aren't in the vet business, then you probably wouldn't be burning any bridges. But it's still the wrong thing to do because it's rude.

Reading between the lines, you know what the right thing to do is - you just don't want to do it. You feel guilty enough about the idea of taking it without full disclosure that you posted here, so ........

This, be upfront and honest with them.

 

[Cheerio5683]

I was in the same place, I told my interviewers that I am on the waitlist, but that the chances of me getting pulled are very slim (which is the truth in my case). They were very understanding and offered me the job.

 

[doe_eyes]

Yes I understand LIS's point. Like I said, I really did just forget to mention it at my interview (my fault, I was really nervous and it just slipped my mind). The interviewer had a set of questions she asked and the topic never came up. I'll make sure to let them know. I have yet to schedule a working interview, but now I just feel like I will waste their time if I do. :\

 

[lianali]

1) What kind of jobs are you applying for? What kind of employer?

Case in point (Vet field): I applied to my local pet clinic with the upfront disclaimer "I'm applying to vet school, and I want to work for you in order to strengthen my vet school application. My work background is in research." They hired me knowing I was on the waitlist and are used to students leaving for school, vet or tech.

Other case(not Vet field): My friend from work took on a temp position in a research lab knowing he'd applied to a PhD program. He never told our employer that he was going to grad school, merely turned in his 2 weeks notice. That employer was noticeably chilly towards students going back to school. They were always professional about it, but it wasn't encouraged if you get my drift. That employer also took their sweet time hiring people out of temp positions without explaining to people why they were kept waiting so long for benefits. At that time, I think he was the 2 or 3rd person in the space of a calendar year to leave for school. It was a stupidly weird catch-22. Management complains they can't get educated workers, and then management complains they lose workers to school because work won't actually pay for certification or degrees that bolster the skills of people working for them. Complain you can't hire qualified histotechnicians, but refuse to reimburse technicians trying to get their certification? Why so shocked when people leave for certifications/education?

If you are going to work for people in the vet field, they'll probably understand and you can tell them. If you are going to work for an employer who isn't supportive of education, then just professionally turn in your 2 weeks notice if you are hired.

2) Have you looked at the old threads of the school where you are waitlisted? That's where I found the information about waitlist movement for where I am waitlisted.

 

[doe_eyes]

I was in the same place, I told my interviewers that I am on the waitlist, but that the chances of me getting pulled are very slim (which is the truth in my case). They were very understanding and offered me the job.

That is awesome! Good luck at your new job! Thanks for the advice!

I would not inform them. Getting off a waitlist is a long shot. But getting a job isn't. If you do (by some miracle) get off a waitlist, your new employer will understand. And they will not have invested too much time and money in you and they can replace you with another recruit. Good luck with your new job!

I know people who did inform their potential employers about school and not get the job (and also not get called off the waitlist!), and I also had a friend who did get a job (but she worked for at least 5 months before leaving). So I see your point of life being uncertain.

 

[doe_eyes]

1) What kind of jobs are you applying for? What kind of employer?

Case in point (Vet field): I applied to my local pet clinic with the upfront disclaimer "I'm applying to vet school, and I want to work for you in order to strengthen my vet school application. My work background is in research." They hired me knowing I was on the waitlist and are used to students leaving for school, vet or tech.

Other case(not Vet field): My friend from work took on a temp position in a research lab knowing he'd applied to a PhD program. He never told our employer that he was going to grad school, merely turned in his 2 weeks notice. That employer was noticeably chilly towards students going back to school. They were always professional about it, but it wasn't encouraged if you get my drift. That employer also took their sweet time hiring people out of temp positions without explaining to people why they were kept waiting so long for benefits. At that time, I think he was the 2 or 3rd person in the space of a calendar year to leave for school. It was a stupidly weird catch-22. Management complains they can't get educated workers, and then management complains they lose workers to school because work won't actually pay for certification or degrees that bolster the skills of people working for them. Complain you can't hire qualified histotechnicians, but refuse to reimburse technicians trying to get their certification? Why so shocked when people leave for certifications/education?

If you are going to work for people in the vet field, they'll probably understand and you can tell them. If you are going to work for an employer who isn't supportive of education, then just professionally turn in your 2 weeks notice if you are hired.

2) Have you looked at the old threads of the school where you are waitlisted? That's where I found the information about waitlist movement for where I am waitlisted.

Yes the new job is in a private clinic. They are a relatively large clinic (4 vets) and the manager did mention many of the techs work there are still in school (tech school).

The school I'm waitlisted at is pretty quite on SDN (Western). Like I said, the alternates aren't ranked so I really have no way to tell of my chances. All I know is there are ~180 people on the alternate list and the earliest they will be calling people off is probably the beginning of May.

 

[DVMDream]

Other case(not Vet field): My friend from work took on a temp position in a research lab knowing he'd applied to a PhD program. He never told our employer that he was going to grad school, merely turned in his 2 weeks notice. That employer was noticeably chilly towards students going back to school. .

The bolded above explains quite clearly why his employer might have been "chilly" towards the student after. I would not be too thrilled/impressed with that person either.

 

[lianali]

The bolded above explains quite clearly why his employer might have been "chilly" towards the student after. I would not be too thrilled/impressed with that person either.

He wasn't the first, and he certainly wasn't the last. I just don't get why we accept that employers or managers get to hold all the power - like, they want skilled employees but refuse to pay for them and then get shocked when employees don't stay or seek advancement elsewhere. That specific department had a history of not supporting people for educational efforts that directly impacted their jobs. (Histology certifications look good on grants, but management wasn't about to go out and start funding people to pay for professional certifications even if it benefits the employer.) It's kinda wildly different at the vet practice - want to become a certified vet tech? Sure! We'll be flexible with your schedule. I promise you, I will be bringing all our animals to that vet clinic for as long as I live in town because they're a great employer.

I believe companies should be willing to invest in their employees, it's as simple as that. That specific research company has my loyalty even if certain departments are kinda wonky because the company invested in me. I'd go back to work for them if my career goals lined up with a job opening there. I'd still recommend people go work for them because the benefits package is pretty damn good, too.

 

[lianali]

Yes the new job is in a private clinic. They are a relatively large clinic (4 vets) and the manager did mention many of the techs work there are still in school (tech school).

The school I'm waitlisted at is pretty quite on SDN (Western). Like I said, the alternates aren't ranked so I really have no way to tell of my chances. All I know is there are ~180 people on the alternate list and the earliest they will be calling people off is probably the beginning of May.

In that case, it sounds pretty reasonable to tell them you're on the waitlist. Be suuuuuper helpful at the interview. I basically walked into every interaction at my working interview with "How can I help? Show me how to hold that dog? What do you need me to do?"

Vet clinic that I am at, I told them the day I found out my ranking on the wait list. They're rooting for me to get in this year, but it'll be a great place to work for another year while I apply again.

 

[dyachei]

Vet med is a small, small world. Being honest and upfront, even if chances are minimal, will help you in the long run. What LIS said.

If I had a vet (or wannabe) student be upfront with me, I'd be much more likely to hire them later. Or let them work summers/vacations.

 

[DVMDream]

He wasn't the first, and he certainly wasn't the last. I just don't get why we accept that employers or managers get to hold all the power - like, they want skilled employees but refuse to pay for them and then get shocked when employees don't stay or seek advancement elsewhere. That specific department had a history of not supporting people for educational efforts that directly impacted their jobs. (Histology certifications look good on grants, but management wasn't about to go out and start funding people to pay for professional certifications even if it benefits the employer.) It's kinda wildly different at the vet practice - want to become a certified vet tech? Sure! We'll be flexible with your schedule. I promise you, I will be bringing all our animals to that vet clinic for as long as I live in town because they're a great employer.

I believe companies should be willing to invest in their employees, it's as simple as that. That specific research company has my loyalty even if certain departments are kinda wonky because the company invested in me. I'd go back to work for them if my career goals lined up with a job opening there. I'd still recommend people go work for them because the benefits package is pretty damn good, too.

I'm not saying what the employer did was right but what the employee did in your scenario above was also not right.

Also, if you want an employer to invest in you to get further education then you need to prove that you are a good employee who is dedicated to them and is willing to come back and use those skills for that company. Yes, places should be understanding of different schedules and try to accommodate as best they can but why should an employer bend over backwards to accommodate for an employee that was hired as a temp who intentionally did not inform them that he was planning on leaving? I am not sure I understand why an employer should feel any need to support that particular employee's educational efforts when (given what you told us) he had not done anything to show he was deserving of such support and actually did things that showed he was undeserving. Now, this place may (as you say) be horrible for supporting great employees in which case, that sucks. But, in the specific scenario you provided above, I see no reason why they should be supportive of that person, and I would also not be thrilled about how that employee handled things.

If you want an employer to fund you getting a certificate you had better be there for some time, working your ass off and showing the employer that you are worth it. An employer doesn't have an obligation to fund people to get certificates just because they want them. Heck, everyone could say they want a certificate then and screw over the employer. It is a give and take. You need to show your worth and then the employer can consider funding something like that for you. I also question if anyone ever asked them if they would consider funding their certificate? Not only that, it really depends on budget and lab policies and other bureaucratic crap that you might not know about for if management could even offer to fund an employee in that way. There is a lot of "behind the scenes" about how things can be done and where money can be spent that the typical employee never sees or even knows about.

 

[doe_eyes]

Thanks everyone! I will make sure to inform the manager, I think that may be better for me. Hopefully things will turn out well, both with the waitlist and job.

 

[DVMDream]

Thanks everyone! I will make sure to inform the manager, I think that may be better for me. Hopefully things will turn out well, both with the waitlist and job.

Good Luck!

 

[katashark]

There is a lot of "behind the scenes" about how things can be done and where money can be spent that the typical employee never sees or even knows about

^^accurate

 

[lianali]

I'm not saying what the employer did was right but what the employee did in your scenario above was also not right.

Also, if you want an employer to invest in you to get further education then you need to prove that you are a good employee who is dedicated to them and is willing to come back and use those skills for that company. Yes, places should be understanding of different schedules and try to accommodate as best they can but why should an employer bend over backwards to accommodate for an employee that was hired as a temp who intentionally did not inform them that he was planning on leaving? I am not sure I understand why an employer should feel any need to support that particular employee's educational efforts when (given what you told us) he had not done anything to show he was deserving of such support and actually did things that showed he was undeserving. Now, this place may (as you say) be horrible for supporting great employees in which case, that sucks. But, in the specific scenario you provided above, I see no reason why they should be supportive of that person, and I would also not be thrilled about how that employee handled things.

If you want an employer to fund you getting a certificate you had better be there for some time, working your ass off and showing the employer that you are worth it. An employer doesn't have an obligation to fund people to get certificates just because they want them. Heck, everyone could say they want a certificate then and screw over the employer. It is a give and take. You need to show your worth and then the employer can consider funding something like that for you. I also question if anyone ever asked them if they would consider funding their certificate? Not only that, it really depends on budget and lab policies and other bureaucratic crap that you might not know about for if management could even offer to fund an employee in that way. There is a lot of "behind the scenes" about how things can be done and where money can be spent that the typical employee never sees or even knows about.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you. I was that employee who got to write her own budget justification for work to pay for my certification in another department. And it actually went through, and I got paid to be certified. Thing that kills me is that I was the exception rather than the rule. I specifically stated that employers should recognize skill building opportunities for employees that are mutually beneficial for both employee and employer, not some willy-nilly classes.

That said, I really do think we set the bar too low for employers to demonstrate loyalty to their employees. Call me a crazy socialist, if you will, but I listed the temp example as a case where it was in the employee's best interest to not divulge graduate school ambitions because the employer had a history of not treating temps well. (Continually extending temp contracts without explanation for example- less cost for employer, more stress and expenses for employee. I, as an employee with benefits, got comped for travel expenses while my lesser-paid temp worker friends had to suck up the costs.)

This isn't the case for doe_eye's who is in a situation exactly the same as mine. We're both on waitlists for vet school. We're both looking or had been looking for vet jobs. I got hired after expressly stating to my current employer that I am waitlisted for vet school and am reapplying. But I do not believe every situation is going to be a rosy and wonderful as the one I find myself in, with employers who actively support educational pursuits of employees. In that case, I don't believe the answers are as cut and dry as "always tell them." It's professionally acceptable to give one's 2 week notice in a situation where all the variables aren't known.

 

[LetItSnow]

In that case, I don't believe the answers are as cut and dry as "always tell them." It's professionally acceptable to give one's 2 week notice in a situation where all the variables aren't known.

Except that in this case the variables ARE known. It's the outcome that's not known. It's one thing to hire on at a place and then, say, suffer some unforeseen major life crisis that dramatically changes things and you have to quit to manage it. Nobody who is reasonable would hold that against you - it's just life.

But this person <knows> they are on a waitlist, may get called off, and may be leaving. This isn't some surprise situation that comes up.

Totally different.

You really do NOT want to be doing that sort of thing in the vet world. In addition to it just being a crappy thing to do to the person hiring you, you will get a rep and it will hurt you.

 

[lianali]

Except that in this case the variables ARE known. It's the outcome that's not known. It's one thing to hire on at a place and then, say, suffer some unforeseen major life crisis that dramatically changes things and you have to quit to manage it. Nobody who is reasonable would hold that against you - it's just life.

But this person <knows> they are on a waitlist, may get called off, and may be leaving. This isn't some surprise situation that comes up.

Totally different.

You really do NOT want to be doing that sort of thing in the vet world. In addition to it just being a crappy thing to do to the person hiring you, you will get a rep and it will hurt you.

Errm, that's exactly what I did in my situation. I told my employers, a vet clinic, that I was waitlisted to vet school and would be applying again. And they hired me.

What I'm talking about is a situation that is not-vet-related where a person risked losing his job if he told his employers he wanted to go to graduate school because he was a temporary employee with an employer who had a history of treating temps poorly. Until doe_eyes clarified their situation as a a person interviewing at a vet clinic, the employee-employer relationship and repercussions were not as clear. Should a person always do something that actively hurts their chances of getting a job to meet their needs because the potential employee should put the employer needs above their own?

ETA: I feel like the two situations are getting conflated and they weren't meant to be treated as one and the same. They are two separate situations.

 

[battie]

Should a person always do something that actively hurts their chances of getting a job to meet their needs because the potential employee should put the employer needs above their own?

If that thing is the "right" thing to do, then yes. If you're actively with-holding information from your employers that may be deemed a negative in their eyes in the long run, there's no telling how they will treat your employment if they find out on their own/if you tell them later when it is more difficult for them to plan for the situation. They may just fire you anyways and then you'd be up the creek without a paddle anyways. References are always important as well, particularly for younger people who may have only one to four jobs on a resume. Having one bad reference out of one to four jobs is a very poor reflection.

You're not putting the employer's needs above your own. You're just being a decent person. You could (probably should) be applying to multiple places anyways. If one place doesn't take you, move on to the next one. If push comes to shove, there's always places like Walmart/Target/Safeway/etc. that are prepared to handle high turn over rates in their "lower" departments. If you need a job that bad, you can't be picky with where you apply or your integrity.

 

[LetItSnow]

You're not putting the employer's needs above your own. You're just being a decent person.

👍

 

[lianali]

If that thing is the "right" thing to do, then yes. If you're actively with-holding information from your employers that may be deemed a negative in their eyes in the long run, there's no telling how they will treat your employment if they find out on their own/if you tell them later when it is more difficult for them to plan for the situation.

Because I enjoy poking things with sticks...

Anyways, thank you for flat out saying yes. I wanted to see how far this went, because this advice went absolutely counter to the situation I brought up and the advice of another manager to temp employee (not involved with the employment situation) who said 2 weeks notices is okay. I get that relationships should be cultivated and they made the difference between me telling the exact same employer "Hey, me, an employee of nearly 5 years, is leaving to go to grad school. Here's my 2 weeks notice." versus "Hey, randomguy, an employee of 3 months, is leaving to go to grad school. Here's my 2 weeks notice."

 

[missdarjeeling]

If that thing is the "right" thing to do, then yes. If you're actively with-holding information from your employers that may be deemed a negative in their eyes in the long run, there's no telling how they will treat your employment if they find out on their own/if you tell them later when it is more difficult for them to plan for the situation. They may just fire you anyways and then you'd be up the creek without a paddle anyways. References are always important as well, particularly for younger people who may have only one to four jobs on a resume. Having one bad reference out of one to four jobs is a very poor reflection.

You're not putting the employer's needs above your own. You're just being a decent person. You could (probably should) be applying to multiple places anyways. If one place doesn't take you, move on to the next one. If push comes to shove, there's always places like Walmart/Target/Safeway/etc. that are prepared to handle high turn over rates in their "lower" departments. If you need a job that bad, you can't be picky with where you apply or your integrity.

Agreed with everything you're saying, bats. It's about being a decent person.

It's important to remember that a job search isn't about just you finding a job - any job - and convincing someone to hire you. Even at times when you may be a bit more desperate for income, it's important to evaluate whether the job and employer are actually good matches for you. Would you really want to work for an employer who'd give you a hard time over being on a waitlist or wanting to go to school or having purple hair or whatever it is? Sometimes you may be in a tough spot and not have the luxury to find a great fit, but if you're able to hold out and really look, why wouldn't you?

Withholding information may seem like it's in your best interest, but in the long run, it usually isn't. You're not allowing yourself to screen for an employer who will be a good fit for you, just as you're not allowing your employer to screen for a good fit for the position. Obviously, we all aim to portray ourselves in the best light and talk up what we bring to the table, but withholding information is different, IMO. And, yeah, chances are, you will be found out, and it will irreparably damage the working relationship. And even in my limited experience so far, I've seen what others are saying about the vet world being very, very small. People know each other and people talk. Don't burn any bridges. For what it's worth, there are lots of hospitals out there who would be happy to have a waitlisted applicant even if they get called off the list and have to leave. But it's their call to make, and they need to know, IMO.

 

[pp9]

@doe_eyes, if they do end up not offering you the job because of your waitlist spot, perhaps you could at least ask them if they'd be willing to take you on during summers for mentoring while you work as an assistant?

I agree that you should be open with them. I told my old boss when I was applying for veterinary school, and I also told her that I was applying for my Orlando internship (which was considerably more nerve-wracking since I technically told her I applied to another job). She ended up being more excited about it than I was at first, lol. Had I just put in my two weeks and she found out I went to work elsewhere, I honestly think she would have been a little hurt. I'm glad I did the right thing, as we still chat to this day and she let me take one of her clinic cats that got attached to me (my big orange boy!).

 

[battie]

Because I enjoy poking things with sticks...

Anyways, thank you for flat out saying yes. I wanted to see how far this went, because this advice went absolutely counter to the situation I brought up and the advice of another manager to temp employee (not involved with the employment situation) who said 2 weeks notices is okay. I get that relationships should be cultivated and they made the difference between me telling the exact same employer "Hey, me, an employee of nearly 5 years, is leaving to go to grad school. Here's my 2 weeks notice." versus "Hey, randomguy, an employee of 3 months, is leaving to go to grad school. Here's my 2 weeks notice."

I'm coming from the perspective of the business owner and an employee. My family owns our own business that I've worked in since the age of 10 and also am now a supervisor. Growing up in our stores, people with holding information was the absolute worse thing. The more honest you were with us, the better off you left us and the better a reference my mom was for you when your next job called us. If you came in saying that you wanted a summer/christmas break job and would not be able to work for the school year, so be it. There's cleaning positions that always need to be filled. My mom wrote character reference letters for people going to school who were upfront about their needs, saying that the person thought ahead and not only were honest about their position, but also helped to fill their position at the end of their rope. You look at it as putting the needs of the employer above your needs, but that can definitely come back and help you if you spin it right.

In between the family business and my current position, I have been the employee who has/was applying for vet school. Every single position, I 1) let them know I was wait listed when I submitted my application/invited for an interview and that I could potentially be gone at the end of July; 2) let them know I was reapplying; and 3) gave them all at least a month's notice when I was leaving (excessive, yes; but I knew I was leaving so I wanted to let them know). That never once hurt me for a couple reasons: 1) I applied to places that needed help regardless of how long that help would stay; 2) I gave them enough of a notice time frame where I was able to not only help replace myself physically, but I was able to train my replacement in my specific tasks; 3) I worked hard while I was with them to make their effort and time worth it. In exchange, I was given letters of reference or told that if my next job doesn't pan out, I am always welcome back. Not going to lie, it was nice to know that if I hated being in the higher levels of Residence Life, I could always go back to my old job, even though I was only there for 6 months.

No matter how long you have been with or are going to be with an employer, there is no reason to not tell them if you know. It speaks to your integrity as a person as well as what kind of employee you might be while you're with that employer. And with holding info can really hurt you later on. The pros definitely outweigh the cons.

 

[lianali]

I get what everyone's saying from an ideal perspective of employer to emplyee relationship, but what disturbs me is that nobody appears to consider or gives practical advice on how to handle employers who treat employees poorly. I've had managers who thought it was so important to get the highest district rankings for their store that they didn't care that they made their employees cry on a daily basis. I absolutely do not think it's fair to employees to extend their temp contracts without explanation, Causing those temps to go without health insurance coverage and associated benefits package. Waiting to find the ideal employment situation where the employer is okay with losing an employee after 3 months is a bit of a very lucky find. Not every employeer cares about their employees. I've worked in a few toxic work environments, and the kind of warm, open advice that people are giving would probably have gotten me fired, even though my intentions would have been above board and I would have been up s--t creek without a paddle. We're all talking from a place of privelige where we assume other person can afford to wait for the perfect enployment situation when the reality is that sometimes loans, bills, and financial emergencies force people to take jobs that suck, or work for employers that do not look out for their employees. Ethics don't pay bills or keep people fed. Sometimes the survival answer isn't the nicest one.

We didn't have those intial details about doe_eye's job application situation, and now we do. I've already done what the majority opinion says is the ethical answer - tell your prospective vet clinic employer that you are applying to vet school and are on the wait list. I already did that. They hired me and would be happy to have me for as long as I can stay.

That said, I did make sure to cultivate strong relationships with my old employeers in order to have great recommendations for vet school. I mean, the people still call me asking how I established supplier relationships in order to keep the lab supplied, so I'm guessing they don't hate me.

However, I'm not of the opinion that this is a "one size fits all" kind of answer. I get that this is only my opinion. I'm not going to change it. So, I guess I'll just respectfully agree to disagree under limited conditions?

 

[DVMDream]

I get what everyone's saying from an ideal perspective of employer to emplyee relationship, but what disturbs me is that nobody appears to consider or gives practical advice on how to handle employers who treat employees poorly. I've had managers who thought it was so important to get the highest district rankings for their store that they didn't care that they made their employees cry on a daily basis. I absolutely do not think it's fair to employees to extend their temp contracts without explanation, Causing those temps to go without health insurance coverage and associated benefits package. Waiting to find the ideal employment situation where the employer is okay with losing an employee after 3 months is a bit of a very lucky find. Not every employeer cares about their employees. I've worked in a few toxic work environments, and the kind of warm, open advice that people are giving would probably have gotten me fired, even though my intentions would have been above board and I would have been up s--t creek without a paddle. We're all talking from a place of privelige where we assume other person can afford to wait for the perfect enployment situation when the reality is that sometimes loans, bills, and financial emergencies force people to take jobs that suck, or work for employers that do not look out for their employees. Ethics don't pay bills or keep people fed. Sometimes the survival answer isn't the nicest one.

We didn't have those intial details about doe_eye's job application situation, and now we do. I've already done what the majority opinion says is the ethical answer - tell your prospective vet clinic employer that you are applying to vet school and are on the wait list. I already did that. They hired me and would be happy to have me for as long as I can stay.

That said, I did make sure to cultivate strong relationships with my old employeers in order to have great recommendations for vet school. I mean, the people still call me asking how I established supplier relationships in order to keep the lab supplied, so I'm guessing they don't hate me.

However, I'm not of the opinion that this is a "one size fits all" kind of answer. I get that this is only my opinion. I'm not going to change it. So, I guess I'll just respectfully agree to disagree under limited conditions?

This is basically a long post explaining why you think it is ok to be a jerk because some employers can be jerks. And I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of people won't know if their employer is a jerk until after they are employed and working. Which means the employee made a jerk move prior to even knowing their employer.

We all get the need for having to pay bills, etc, etc, etc and needing a job but that doesn't leave you with an excuse to be a jerk. If you are in that position where you need a job right now or you're going to be without food but you might have to leave the job in a few months, then you have to decide what is more important. You have to determine if not revealing you might be leaving soon is worth the consequence of what word of mouth from that employer can do. Food on the table might be worth that but that is your ultimately your choice and you need to be ok with any possible consequences of making that choice.

I think many of us have been at rock bottom before and most of us know what it is like to not have an income available for bills. It isn't some novel idea to us. It us just that every decision comes with a consequence and your life predicament doesn't change those consequences.

 

[dyachei]

I get what everyone's saying from an ideal perspective of employer to emplyee relationship, but what disturbs me is that nobody appears to consider or gives practical advice on how to handle employers who treat employees poorly. I've had managers who thought it was so important to get the highest district rankings for their store that they didn't care that they made their employees cry on a daily basis. I absolutely do not think it's fair to employees to extend their temp contracts without explanation, Causing those temps to go without health insurance coverage and associated benefits package. Waiting to find the ideal employment situation where the employer is okay with losing an employee after 3 months is a bit of a very lucky find. Not every employeer cares about their employees. I've worked in a few toxic work environments, and the kind of warm, open advice that people are giving would probably have gotten me fired, even though my intentions would have been above board and I would have been up s--t creek without a paddle. We're all talking from a place of privelige where we assume other person can afford to wait for the perfect enployment situation when the reality is that sometimes loans, bills, and financial emergencies force people to take jobs that suck, or work for employers that do not look out for their employees. Ethics don't pay bills or keep people fed. Sometimes the survival answer isn't the nicest one.

We didn't have those intial details about doe_eye's job application situation, and now we do. I've already done what the majority opinion says is the ethical answer - tell your prospective vet clinic employer that you are applying to vet school and are on the wait list. I already did that. They hired me and would be happy to have me for as long as I can stay.

That said, I did make sure to cultivate strong relationships with my old employeers in order to have great recommendations for vet school. I mean, the people still call me asking how I established supplier relationships in order to keep the lab supplied, so I'm guessing they don't hate me.

However, I'm not of the opinion that this is a "one size fits all" kind of answer. I get that this is only my opinion. I'm not going to change it. So, I guess I'll just respectfully agree to disagree under limited conditions?

Most corporations have an "ombundsman" that you can call anonymously to report any sort of abuse or even ask if it's actionable. Still doesn't give you an excuse to not do the right thing.

 

[lianali]

Food on the table might be worth that but that is your ultimately your choice and you need to be ok with any possible consequences of making that choice.

I don't deny there are consequences. I guess what I'm saying is I completely understand why someone else would chose to withhold the information if they were in a less than ideal employment situation. I get that everyone else disagrees with the alternate scenario I presented. At no point in my life have I actually conducted myself in manner of the alternate scenario.

Just so we're 100% clear, I have not conducted my professional life like the alternate scenario. Heck, I'm a bleeping graduate student and I've gone out of my way to make sure that the grant program I'm in will have continuity after I'm gone, and made sure the department had a grad assistant lined up to fill my shoes. She's shadowing me now to learn how the program works and I'll be having some overlap time to hand things off like the sensitive data management pieces. This wasn't anywhere in my job description, it's just how I operate.

Most corporations have an "ombundsman" that you can call anonymously to report any sort of abuse or even ask if it's actionable. Still doesn't give you an excuse to not do the right thing.

Things that suck about having emotionally abusive parents: not knowing what normal human interactions are supposed to be like, so I waded through a number of really crappy managers before I learned "Hey! That's not acceptable behavior. I don't have to stand for that!" It took some years to learn. I wish this kind of information had been more readily available to me even just a few short years ago, because I really do feel like employees don't have a lot of recourse when it comes to pushing back against poor management.

 

[dyachei]

I don't deny there are consequences. I guess what I'm saying is I completely understand why someone else would chose to withhold the information if they were in a less than ideal employment situation. I get that everyone else disagrees with the alternate scenario I presented. At no point in my life have I actually conducted myself in manner of the alternate scenario.

Just so we're 100% clear, I have not conducted my professional life like the alternate scenario. Heck, I'm a bleeping graduate student and I've gone out of my way to make sure that the grant program I'm in will have continuity after I'm gone, and made sure the department had a grad assistant lined up to fill my shoes. She's shadowing me now to learn how the program works and I'll be having some overlap time to hand things off like the sensitive data management pieces. This wasn't anywhere in my job description, it's just how I operate.




Things that suck about having emotionally abusive parents: not knowing what normal human interactions are supposed to be like, so I waded through a number of really crappy managers before I learned "Hey! That's not acceptable behavior. I don't have to stand for that!" It took some years to learn. I wish this kind of information had been more readily available to me even just a few short years ago, because I really do feel like employees don't have a lot of recourse when it comes to pushing back against poor management.

Of course you do. But the recourse shouldn't be losing your ethics. You can

• quit
• report it to a higher up
• discuss recourse with a lawyer
• decide you want to continue to be employed with this employer regardless

None of that requires you to be dishonest

 

[missdarjeeling]

I get what everyone's saying from an ideal perspective of employer to emplyee relationship, but what disturbs me is that nobody appears to consider or gives practical advice on how to handle employers who treat employees poorly.

That's because of the scope of the OP's question. At the interview and offer stage, you're not yet dealing with an employer who treats employees poorly. And like I said before, part of the interview process is you screening your employer to see if they're the type of employer you want to deal with. Obviously, you can't perfectly predict what your employer will be like. An employer may sugar coat things or withhold information, too. But in this specific situation, I can't imagine an employer lying to someone about being okay with them potentially leaving for vet school in 3 months when they secretly know they'd be angry about it. Lying about the waitlist is opening yourself up to the possibility that you'll be fired on the spot when you give notice and end up with bad references to boot.

As for the rest of your post, funny enough, I tend to fall on the side of employee protection and rights most of the time. I was a union member at my old job, and my husband was a shop steward in his union a few years ago during a time when his company was actively crushing the union. Yes, there are times when you need to protect yourself even if it involves withholding information about your future plans. I highly doubt anyone would ever argue that you must absolutely tell your boss that you're looking for a new job, every time, regardless of the circumstances. I'm personally a believer in keeping job searches secret until an offer is in hand, and you're ready to give notice. And if you're jumping ship because of a toxic work environment, I doubt anyone would advise you to describe said environment in detail during an interview. But generally speaking, I don't think it's a good idea to make every employee/employer relationship into an adversarial one right off the bat. If both parties are clear up front about expectations and what they hope to get out of the business relationship, things work a lot more smoothly. What everyone's arguing is that it's a bad idea to complicate that right at the start.

 

[lianali]

Yes, there are times when you need to protect yourself even if it involves withholding information about your future plans. I highly doubt anyone would ever argue that you must absolutely tell your boss that you're looking for a new job, every time, regardless of the circumstances. I'm personally a believer in keeping job searches secret until an offer is in hand, and you're ready to give notice. And if you're jumping ship because of a toxic work environment, I doubt anyone would advise you to describe said environment in detail during an interview. But generally speaking, I don't think it's a good idea to make every employee/employer relationship into an adversarial one right off the bat. If both parties are clear up front about expectations and what they hope to get out of the business relationship, things work a lot more smoothly. What everyone's arguing is that it's a bad idea to complicate that right at the start.

This! Thank you for saying what I've been clumsily and ineffectively trying to say. It really began to feel like all-or-nothing answers to very different situations. I completely agreed with everyone else about how to handle the situation when all the details were known (It's a vet clinic that openly states they have employees who are taking classes. She's a going in for a working interview and on the wait list. Everyone's given a full disclosure.) but somehow I was emphasizing all the wrong points.

 

[WildZoo]

This! Thank you for saying what I've been clumsily and ineffectively trying to say. It really began to feel like all-or-nothing answers to very different situations. I completely agreed with everyone else about how to handle the situation when all the details were known (It's a vet clinic that openly states they have employees who are taking classes. She's a going in for a working interview and on the wait list. Everyone's given a full disclosure.) but somehow I was emphasizing all the wrong points.

Well, I think most people responding here were focused on the OP's particular situation, whereas you were referring to outside anecdotes and hypotheticals that didn't have much bearing on her question for her circumstances. Might be why there was some missed communication.

 

[BeamingLight]

I have to agree with @missdarjeeling and @lianali on this issue. We live in an era where employers harness more power than potential employees. Businesses, both small and large, are guilty of looking out for their self-interests, why shouldn’t you as a potential new hire? To me, it is important to live in the present, not living in fear ‘what-ifs’ and hypotheticals. If you are on the wait list and have no idea where you fall in line, don’t count yourself in, count yourself out. I have to be honest, if you have been applying to jobs since November, you need to do everything in your power to secure a job. For me, being unemployed that long would not be an option—I support myself and don’t have family to lean on. If I felt that sharing the fact I may get into vet school in three months would hurt my employment opportunity, I would NOT disclose that information. I think what complicates this situation is that you are interviewing for a position at a veterinary clinic, which presents the possibility of burning bridges. Still, I would probably elect to not divulge that information, and, if by happy chance I was asked to join the class of 2020, I would immediately explain to my employer the situation.


I understand that my opinion is in the minority, but we need to transcend the ‘employers are the deciders’ mentality and change it to one centered around employee rights. Look out for yourself!

 

[DVMDream]

I have to agree with @missdarjeeling and @lianali on this issue. We live in an era where employers harness more power than potential employees. Businesses, both small and large, are guilty of looking out for their self-interests, why shouldn’t you as a potential new hire? To me, it is important to live in the present, not living in fear ‘what-ifs’ and hypotheticals. If you are on the wait list and have no idea where you fall in line, don’t count yourself in, count yourself out. I have to be honest, if you have been applying to jobs since November, you need to do everything in your power to secure a job. For me, being unemployed that long would not be an option—I support myself and don’t have family to lean on. If I felt that sharing the fact I may get into vet school in three months would hurt my employment opportunity, I would NOT disclose that information. I think what complicates this situation is that you are interviewing for a position at a veterinary clinic, which presents the possibility of burning bridges. Still, I would probably elect to not divulge that information, and, if by happy chance I was asked to join the class of 2020, I would immediately explain to my employer the situation.


I understand that my opinion is in the minority, but we need to transcend the ‘employers are the deciders’ mentality and change it to one centered around employee rights. Look out for yourself!

Vet med is a very very small field. Let's put it this way.... I was never once asked for a LOR while applying for jobs recently because everyone knew someone who previously worked with me. Even though I had never met a single person who was considering hiring me they all had some internal reference point for me. Do not, do not, do not burn bridges in the vet field. Even if it means possibly not getting a job, it just isn't wise.

 

[rockatiel]

I don't mean to derail the discussion, but this seemed like a pertinent thread to ask this, since it deals with employment for very short periods of time--is it realistic for me to try to get a lower end part time job with the 40 days I'll have between graduating college and moving for vet school? I'd obviously be telling employers I'd be going to vet school soon, but I really need the money. Im moving back in with my parents next Saturday, so the job hunt starts like yesterday if I can pull this off. Should I just stick to walking neighbors' dogs and mowing lawns for my sanity?

 

[missdarjeeling]

And again, while I think that employees need to protect their rights and that employers sometimes go over the line, I still agree with everyone else about this particular situation. It's a bad idea to not tell a potential employer that you're waitlisted for all the reasons everyone's mentioned already. There is no way it will end well if you do get called off the waitlist. And to emphasize the bridge-burning point even more, doctors I've met in my current town have known and worked with doctors I met in three other states. Word not only gets around -- it travels far.

 

[LetItSnow]

I don't mean to derail the discussion, but this seemed like a pertinent thread to ask this, since it deals with employment for very short periods of time--is it realistic for me to try to get a lower end part time job with the 40 days I'll have between graduating college and moving for vet school? I'd obviously be telling employers I'd be going to vet school soon, but I really need the money. Im moving back in with my parents next Saturday, so the job hunt starts like yesterday if I can pull this off. Should I just stick to walking neighbors' dogs and mowing lawns for my sanity?

If you have experience, it's probably feasible. At least in my area (and from what I hear, most areas) vet clinics are desperate for technical staff .... so if you have experience there are probably places that would be happy to have someone fill in as a temp.

 

[pp9]

Vet med is a very very small field. Let's put it this way.... I was never once asked for a LOR while applying for jobs recently because everyone knew someone who previously worked with me. Even though I had never met a single person who was considering hiring me they all had some internal reference point for me. Do not, do not, do not burn bridges in the vet field. Even if it means possibly not getting a job, it just isn't wise.

👍

Not uncommon for a vet to see who you worked with previously and call that doctor to see if you're even worth an interview or not. That can go for internships/residencies, too. I imagine this will only become easier for veterinarians as social media is a bigger deal with the younger veterinarians.

 

[rockatiel]

If you have experience, it's probably feasible. At least in my area (and from what I hear, most areas) vet clinics are desperate for technical staff .... so if you have experience there are probably places that would be happy to have someone fill in as a temp.

I don't think its the same in my area vet med wise, sadly. We have smaller clinics that like to keep the staff consistent. I was also considering non vet jobs just to keep options open. I need to think about it more! Just quickly 😵


I guess I should contribute to the conversation. I don't get why a job would take priority over whether you should inform them of the wait list position or not. The receptionist at a clinic I worked at mentioned maybe a month or two ahead of time that she may have to move to Colorado because of her husbands job, and everyone in the office was fine with it. Granted it's different because she had worked there and was established but to put it into perspective, a potential job offer in another place, a wait list position at a school, etc, are game changers. They're things that can change your life like that. We fill out FAFSA for schools were wait listed at, don't we? (Or at least I did) It's unprofessional to act like the waitlist doesn't exist and not tell employers, then all the sudden just up and leave. They're going to know that you knew your wait list standing for some time. And they're going to be upset.

 

[dyachei]

I have to agree with @missdarjeeling and @lianali on this issue. We live in an era where employers harness more power than potential employees. Businesses, both small and large, are guilty of looking out for their self-interests, why shouldn’t you as a potential new hire? To me, it is important to live in the present, not living in fear ‘what-ifs’ and hypotheticals. If you are on the wait list and have no idea where you fall in line, don’t count yourself in, count yourself out. I have to be honest, if you have been applying to jobs since November, you need to do everything in your power to secure a job. For me, being unemployed that long would not be an option—I support myself and don’t have family to lean on. If I felt that sharing the fact I may get into vet school in three months would hurt my employment opportunity, I would NOT disclose that information. I think what complicates this situation is that you are interviewing for a position at a veterinary clinic, which presents the possibility of burning bridges. Still, I would probably elect to not divulge that information, and, if by happy chance I was asked to join the class of 2020, I would immediately explain to my employer the situation.


I understand that my opinion is in the minority, but we need to transcend the ‘employers are the deciders’ mentality and change it to one centered around employee rights. Look out for yourself!

that's your choice. But the consequences of not being honest in this field far outweigh other consequences.

Regardless, you have other options. You aren't forced into this situation. You can apply to several jobs in various fields, including retail, summer camps, etc. If you still choose to not tell them and go into a vet job, don't be surprised if you hurt your chances of getting any other vet jobs in the community.

 

[battie]

I get what everyone's saying from an ideal perspective of employer to emplyee relationship, but what disturbs me is that nobody appears to consider or gives practical advice on how to handle employers who treat employees poorly

As others have said, in doe's situation, she is not dealing with an employer who treats employees poorly. She's dealing with an interview situation. Lying to your potential new boss before you even start is not a good way to establish yourself in that business.

Waiting to find the ideal employment situation where the employer is okay with losing an employee after 3 months is a bit of a very lucky find.

Not really. Like I said, there are positions at Target/Walmart/Safeway/etc available almost all the time in almost any town/city with 5,000 or more people living there, and those places do not necessarily expect you to stay longer than a few months at a time; they are prepared for the loss rate. Though it might not be your dream job, being a cashier for three months, making 8-15 dollars an hour (depending on where you live) is just as good a job for your situation as working as an assistant/tech for 8-15 dollars an hour.

I've worked in a few toxic work environments, and the kind of warm, open advice that people are giving would probably have gotten me fired, even though my intentions would have been above board and I would have been up s--t creek without a paddle.

I would say we've all been there, done that. After my experience with a toxic job, I've learned you just quit and move on. Definitely easier said than done for sure, but that's where I stand. In a situation where you cannot control what others do, you have two options: make the best of it or quit (both with the required 'try to find new job').

You're coming from a place assuming that the employer is out only for number one when that's simply not the case every time. Assuming that things are going to be that bad before you even get the job, why would you bother to interview in the first place?

 

[lianali]

As others have said, in doe's situation, she is not dealing with an employer who treats employees poorly. She's dealing with an interview situation. Lying to your potential new boss before you even start is not a good way to establish yourself in that business.

I've already agreed that once all the details were known, such as interviewing in a small field like veterinary medicine, she should tell her potential employer, a vet clinic, that she is wait listed. These details were NOT immediately stated in the first post.

I have applied for a couple of jobs and have received interviews at two of them. I'm invited back for a working interview at one. Should I inform them that I am on the waitlist for school? I understand that working there for 2-3 months is a short time, especially since it will take time to just train a new employee. However, I really don't know my chances of being accepted off the waitlist so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot and potentially not get the job because the business wants someone long term (which is understandable). I have been looking for a job since around November of last year (after I finished school), and sent out many resumes/cover letters since then. Basically I'm saying I have been looking for a job for quite some time now, and I am getting to the point where I am a bit desperate to have one

Nowhere in the original post does it say "vet clinic" and I never assumed automatically that it was a job at vet clinic.

I have been looking for a job since around November of last year (after I finished school)

Here's the part I feel like everyone ignored. If someone graduated with student loans in November 2015, the 6 month grace period ends in May 2016. I'd be pretty desperate to take any job at that point. I didn't assume she was interviewing at a veterinary clinic until AFTER she verified it was for a vet tech job. My answer changed based on new information that came later.

Yes the new job is in a private clinic. They are a relatively large clinic (4 vets) and the manager did mention many of the techs work there are still in school (tech school).

My response to the exact same situation: I told my employers, a vet clinic, that I was waitlisted to vet school and would be applying again. And they hired me. My employers know that there's a small, tiny chance I may get called off the waitlist and have to leave in August 2016. They also know I'm reapplying this year. I'm not actually disagreeing about how to handle oneself in a small, professional field like vet med.

missdarjeeling said it best:

there are times when you need to protect yourself even if it involves withholding information about your future plans. I highly doubt anyone would ever argue that you must absolutely tell your boss that you're looking for a new job, every time, regardless of the circumstances. I'm personally a believer in keeping job searches secret until an offer is in hand, and you're ready to give notice. And if you're jumping ship because of a toxic work environment, I doubt anyone would advise you to describe said environment in detail during an interview. But generally speaking, I don't think it's a good idea to make every employee/employer relationship into an adversarial one right off the bat. If both parties are clear up front about expectations and what they hope to get out of the business relationship, things work a lot more smoothly. What everyone's arguing is that it's a bad idea to complicate that right at the start.

I hope that clarifies my position. Edited because grammar.

 

[DVMDream]

Look out for yourself!

This mentality is worrying. Especially in a field like vet med where as a veterinarian you have to take responsibility for everything and have to guide a team of people. Vet med isn't a one man show of people looking out for their own self interest.

 

[BeamingLight]

This mentality is worrying. Especially in a field like vet med where as a veterinarian you have to take responsibility for everything and have to guide a team of people. Vet med isn't a one man show of people looking out for their own self interest.

I understand your point, but I think you are blurring the context of my comment. Taking care of patients and accomplishing a job harmoniously with a staff is a huge part of fulfilling your job as a veterinarian, or any health care provider. I think you are trying to say is that it is important to be honest in the healthcare environment because it establishes trust not only between you and the staff, but with the clientele as well. I agree that this is important when conducting yourself as a professional. However, I see this relationship as separate from that of the employee/employer relationship.

In an ideal world employers, or administrators, have personal interests that do not conflict with the interests of their employees. This is seldom the case. Let's reflect on the Walmart business model where employees incomes are kept so low that families are forced to live off welfare and are not offered paid sick leave for personal or family emergencies. Walmart can afford to pay their workers more and invest in paid sick leave, but they choose not to because it would-- potentially-- shrink corporate profits and returns for the company's shareholders. The point is that at its core, business is business, it is self-interested. What is troubling is that business' interests are more powerful than those of their employees. doe_eyes situation is different than being taken advantage of by a big Walmart-like institution, but that power discrepancy still exists in his small four veterinarian clinic. Too often people acquiesce to the dogma of businesses, this notion that employees are there to serve them; what I am calling for is for employees to perceive a new prospective, where employers exist to serve their employees. I have seen and have experienced abuse from my employers, even in the veterinary industry. Ultimately, it is YOU who needs to look out for yourself. Tread carefully 😉

**Disclaimer-- doe_eyes cannot be a victim of employment abuse as they are not hired yet. In this instance the clinic has the power to potentially reject their application for employment based on an unknown. How much information doe_eyes chooses to share during the recruitment process is up to them. I think if the employment opportunity is a good one, and one that revealed itself after 6 months of unemployment, I might err on the side of caution if you want it. The downside to this decision is maybe pissing someone off down the road, but I think if you get to that point you can write it off as a "wow I am super surprised, I didn't think I had a chance of making it off the wait list." which isn't a lie since you have no idea where you fall in that process.

 

[missdarjeeling]

This mentality is worrying. Especially in a field like vet med where as a veterinarian you have to take responsibility for everything and have to guide a team of people. Vet med isn't a one man show of people looking out for their own self interest.

Someone concerned only about their self-interest in general, even when it comes to the medicine side of things, would scare the crap out of me if they were a doctor or in any position of power in a hospital. But when it comes to the business side of things, is it really a bad attitude to have? Say you're negotiating your associate contract with your employer during your annual review. Shouldn't you be advocating for yourself?

I mean, none of this actually relates to the original question, but I think BeamingLight is trying to say that employees should be aware of their rights and advocate for themselves when necessary. I don't think that's a bad thing and I don't think that necessarily conflicts with the goals of providing good medical care and fostering a good team environment with the people you manage. Sometimes protecting yourself and the rights of your staff who don't have the freedom to push back against management improves the working environment. Sometimes you need to establish boundaries or you'll be drained totally dry, and a doctor running on empty is just as scary as a doctor thinking only of themselves.

 

[DVMDream]

Too often people acquiesce to the dogma of businesses, this notion that employees are there to serve them; what I am calling for is for employees to perceive a new prospective, where employers exist to serve their employees. I have seen and have experienced abuse from my employers, even in the veterinary industry. Ultimately, it is YOU who needs to look out for yourself. Tread carefully 😉

No. It isn't an either/or. Employees are hired to serve a purpose for the employer and the employer compensates them for that. Both parties are giving something and both a receiving something in return. The two work together. There shouldn't be either that "exists to serve xxx". The employee/employer exist to provide each other with something that is needed. The relationship goes sour when one of the parties isn't holding up their end of the bargain. Whether that be the employer not compensating the employee with an adequate salary, providing adequate benefits, etc. Or the employee not doing their job, not showing up on time, taking long lunch breaks, not listening, etc... An employer does NOT exist to serve an employee or vice versa. You are both there to provide something to one another.

I think if the employment opportunity is a good one, and one that revealed itself after 6 months of unemployment, I might err on the side of caution if you want it. The downside to this decision is maybe pissing someone off down the road, but I think if you get to that point you can write it off as a "wow I am super surprised, I didn't think I had a chance of making it off the wait list." which isn't a lie since you have no idea where you fall in that process.

You really think a veterinarian is naive in knowing what a vet school waitlist means? We all understand it is one giant ball of uncertainty. If someone came in and accepted a job at this time in the year without making any mention of being on a waitlist then got a call in July and up and left, I would not consider ever hiring them again. And I have been on more waitlists than I care to count at his moment. I know it is unknown what will happen. I get it. But to omit that information during the hiring process, would instantly create animosity where none is needed.

You aren't grasping how devastating burning a single bridge in this field can be. One burnt bridge could lead to you never getting a job in that particular area ever again. That might not seem bad if you never plan on stepping foot in that area again, but you never know what the future holds. Many people tend to head back to home tomes after vet school. Some don't. You just never know. Not only that, you never know where those vets could end up in the 4 years you are in vet school. What was just one burnt bridge at one clinic in one small town becomes... 3 burnt bridges (from the 3 doctors at the clinic, don't forget there is also office manager/other techs/receptionists too) in 3 different states because Dr. Smith decided to move back home and Dr. White's husband got transferred to a new job and she is now working in a different state and of course the owner of the clinic is still in the original clinic. So now you have 3 burnt bridges (not including the rest of the staff that may or may not care) in 3 different states and you are now dealing with 3 people who have a not so great opinion of you that could be considered in 4 years down the line when you graduate. This is a very small field, I would not "piss someone off" and attempt to "write it off" as anything.

 

[DVMDream]

Someone concerned only about their self-interest in general, even when it comes to the medicine side of things, would scare the crap out of me if they were a doctor or in any position of power in a hospital. But when it comes to the business side of things, is it really a bad attitude to have? Say you're negotiating your associate contract with your employer during your annual review. Shouldn't you be advocating for yourself?

I mean, none of this actually relates to the original question, but I think BeamingLight is trying to say that employees should be aware of their rights and advocate for themselves when necessary. I don't think that's a bad thing and I don't think that necessarily conflicts with the goals of providing good medical care and fostering a good team environment with the people you manage. Sometimes protecting yourself and the rights of your staff who don't have the freedom to push back against management improves the working environment. Sometimes you need to establish boundaries or you'll be drained totally dry, and a doctor running on empty is just as scary as a doctor thinking only of themselves.

There is a difference between "advocating for yourself" and "looking out for yourself" as BeamingLight implied. There is a difference in the mentality of going to an employer and stating your feelings to how you are doing and discussing possible raises in salary or what not. A one-on-one interaction with your employer where you both amicably discuss business and what the employer can afford and what you are looking for is fine. But the previously posted mentality of "look out for yourself!" along with the "employers should be serving employees" indicates that the employer should bend over backward for the employee and the employee doesn't need to do anything for the employer. Neither should be existing to "serve" the other. That just isn't how it should work out. There is a healthy balance between employer/employee and both need to work with one another. Both need to understand one another's needs. What does your employer need from and expect from you? What, as an employee do you need/expect from your employer? There may be need to compromise on some things. This was all discussed in depth in vet school about contract negotiation and how each party will want/need something different and having an open, honest and frank discussion goes a long way in getting a good contract. There will often be compromises on both ends, whether that is in pay, benefits, non-compete clauses, etc. There is an appropriate way to do that without it necessarily being a "look our for yourself!". At the end of the day, your employer is running a business and if his business fails, you don't get paid, so you need to have some of his needs/wants at heart and in mind too, otherwise you are out of a job. You really should be advocating for the business, that doesn't mean you have to accept a $20K less than average salary, but having some knowledge of how the business needs to operate and what your employer can afford so that the business isn't struggling is probably a good idea.

None of this really applies to the OP's post though. The OP isn't looking at an annual review, the OP is just simply in the application process. Being open and honest with being on the waitlist is going to do more good for him/her than not being honest. I get that people are all "well I wouldn't be able to go that long without a job" or "well, you might not get off and if you do you can just explain it then, they might understand". Ultimately, we don't know if the OP can go any longer without a job and there is nothing stating the OP won't get the job if he/she is honest. Burning a bridge in this field, can be devastating in the future. And it may not be. No one here can predict what will or will not happen. What we can say is that being honest and open from the beginning is the right thing to do. You can choose to do that, or if you are that desperate you can choose not to do that. Should you choose not to do that, be aware that you could burn some bridges and there may be consequences stemming from burning those bridges.