Applying to EM now

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slavicman

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Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
 
There are no foreseeable events to suggest anything but a chronic and worsening job shortage at this time. Your employment prospects are better with IM, perhaps with a fellowship afterwards. How much better is also an open question.

I would also like to take this opportunity to say I HATE YOU HCA, PLEASE BURN DOWN TO THE GROUND.
 
best just not to apply. check out the ENT thread or maybe derm its more bright there
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

I think you have answered your own question here. I just hope you get over this "Top Tier" nonsense that will not help you at all.
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...
Rural Montana sounds awesome.
 
Going to a "top-tier" residency program will make it easier to get one slightly less crappy/mediocre job offer compared to others. The job market will still suck. You will likely not get to have your pick of geographic areas unless you are willing and able to work in an undesirable location.

Med students, you have been warned.
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

If there are no openings, it doesn't matter where you did residency. Also attending experience matters a lot more, a new grad from a top tier may not be selected over an established attending with > 2-3 years of experience.

You are 4-5 years away from your first job. My prediction is the 2022 residency class will start the trend of under employed or unemployed ER docs.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
If there are no openings, it doesn't matter where you did residency. Also attending experience matters a lot more, a new grad from a top tier may not be selected over an established attending with > 2-3 years of experience.

You are 4-5 years away from your first job. My prediction is the 2022 residency class will start the trend of under employed or unemployed ER docs.
Click to expand...

I'd argue this year's graduating class (Class of 2021) is already suffering from that trend...
 
HemorrhagicShock said:
I'd argue this year's graduating class (Class of 2021) is already suffering from that trend...
Click to expand...

Guess we will really find out this July. I'm thinking the remaining rural spots available will likely go to the 2500 grads this year.
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

FWIW rural Montana is a pretty competitive job market in EM.
Do IM...there are not and will not be jobs in EM. If there are jobs, they will be nights and weekends for very little money somewhere much less desirable than rural Montana.
 
First off no one really cares about a top-tier residency, unless you do academics. For other jobs it matters about your experience and how close you did your residency to the area you want to live. Experience >school so your press Gainey and your patience per hour on a decent mark matters more than coming from a “power house” residency.

I know shocking but you’ll soon realize after residency if you’re doing community medicine it is regional even if you want to yell Harvard or Stanford it’s not like people are going to be jumping down your throat if you decide to go to Colorado or Southern California.
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

Yeah if the job market does get as bad as predicted, where you train isn't going to help as others stated. Employers will take someone with attending experience over a new grad any day, regardless of where you train. I think at this point, people either apply while accepting the predicted market, knowing they may have poor job prospects if the oversupply isn't slowed or they go a different career route.
 
gamerEMdoc said:
Yeah if the job market does get as bad as predicted, where you train isn't going to help as others stated. Employers will take someone with attending experience over a new grad any day, regardless of where you train. I think at this point, people either apply while accepting the predicted market, knowing they may have poor job prospects if the oversupply isn't slowed or they go a different career route.
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Gamer what are your thoughts on the job market for academics going forward?

Before the bottom fell out my game plan was for a career in the academic world - accept slightly decreased pay in exchange for long stable career, teach students and residents, do a little research. Maybe do a crit fellowship to expand my academic cred and marketability.

Rumblings I’ve heard from my own program are that those academic jobs are all but non-existent now, even for fellowship trained docs.

It all makes me wonder if an academic career is still viable long term.
 
Fox800 said:
Going to a "top-tier" residency program will make it easier to get one slightly less crappy/mediocre job offer compared to others. The job market will still suck. You will likely not get to have your pick of geographic areas unless you are willing and able to work in an undesirable location.

Med students, you have been warned.
Click to expand...

cyanide12345678 said:
If there are no openings, it doesn't matter where you did residency. Also attending experience matters a lot more, a new grad from a top tier may not be selected over an established attending with > 2-3 years of experience.

You are 4-5 years away from your first job. My prediction is the 2022 residency class will start the trend of under employed or unemployed ER docs.
Click to expand...

Brigade4Radiant said:
First off no one really cares about a top-tier residency, unless you do academics. For other jobs it matters about your experience and how close you did your residency to the area you want to live. Experience >school so your press Gainey and your patience per hour on a decent mark matters more than coming from a “power house” residency.

I know shocking but you’ll soon realize after residency if you’re doing community medicine it is regional even if you want to yell Harvard or Stanford it’s not like people are going to be jumping down your throat if you decide to go to Colorado or Southern California.
Click to expand...

gamerEMdoc said:
Yeah if the job market does get as bad as predicted, where you train isn't going to help as others stated. Employers will take someone with attending experience over a new grad any day, regardless of where you train. I think at this point, people either apply while accepting the predicted market, knowing they may have poor job prospects if the oversupply isn't slowed or they go a different career route.
Click to expand...

Yeah but surely you all don't mean Denver right?!? I mean, I'd expect any hospital to be eager to hire even just a PGY3 from Denver who hasn't even finished training than a community ED doc from some fly-by-night residency with only a few years of real-world experience right?

Reference if sarcasm is not apparent
 
I cannot overemphasize, yet again, how bad the job market in EM is right now.
We had over thirty applications for a part-time job.
We screened out anyone with less than three years experience, regardless of residency.
We have a moonlighter who has been moonlighting all over for the last year with no job prospects.
 
miacomet said:
I cannot overemphasize, yet again, how bad the job market in EM is right now.
We had over thirty applications for a part-time job.
We screened out anyone with less than three years experience, regardless of residency.
We have a moonlighter who has been moonlighting all over for the last year with no job prospects.
Click to expand...
Three years ago would you only have like 5 applications for the part time job? Or have needed a recruiter?
 
wamcp said:
Three years ago would you only have like 5 applications for the part time job? Or have needed a recruiter?
Click to expand...

We don't use recruiters, never have.
Five years ago? Maybe 5-7.
 
Tipsy McStagger said:
Yeah but surely you all don't mean Denver right?!? I mean, I'd expect any hospital to be eager to hire even just a PGY3 from Denver who hasn't even finished training than a community ED doc from some fly-by-night residency with only a few years of real-world experience right?

Reference if sarcasm is not apparent
Click to expand...
Have you ever even HEARD of a pullback shift?!?

the NEVRVE
 
miacomet said:
I cannot overemphasize, yet again, how bad the job market in EM is right now.
We had over thirty applications for a part-time job.
We screened out anyone with less than three years experience, regardless of residency.
We have a moonlighter who has been moonlighting all over for the last year with no job prospects.
Click to expand...

What part of the country are you in?
 
miacomet said:
A desirable part of the country.
But it's no different in many other parts of the country.
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Well, I hope it's in one of these hot market locations because 30 apps for a PT gig is just laughably sad. I hope we never get that bad in the SE but I'm sure we will. I'm not even in a very desirable city and we have no shortage of applications and zero spots.
 
I would rather gouge out my eyeballs than wake up every day and practice IM or FM. Choose the specialty you will enjoy. No-one can predict what will happen with the job market over the course of your career.
 
aberkovi said:
I would rather gouge out my eyeballs than wake up every day and practice IM or FM. Choose the specialty you will enjoy. No-one can predict what will happen with the job market over the course of your career.
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I'd rather pay off my loans.
The jobs crisis in EM is no joke. People who graduate from EM now...are not going to be practicing EM.
 
There are unemployed EM docs right now.
All over the country.
If people are going to medschool as a hobby and are independently wealthy, by all means pursue EM.
But there are no jobs.
EM was a corporate scam from the start.
 
aberkovi said:
I would rather gouge out my eyeballs than wake up every day and practice IM or FM. Choose the specialty you will enjoy. No-one can predict what will happen with the job market over the course of your career.
Click to expand...
I used to enjoy EM a lot. You can check my posts. Hell I even have challenged Miacomet on various aspects of the job in the past.

That’s really changed over the past 1-2 years. Now I feel like Damocles with a sword dangling over my head. One wrong move and I could lose my job and not have any backup. It’s a lot of unnecessary stress in a job that’s already stressful with high risk. In addition it seems like the outpatient world has gotten even lazier with covid and now everything is just “send to the ER.”

I wouldn’t do EM if I could go back.
 
miacomet said:
There are unemployed EM docs right now.
All over the country.
If people are going to medschool as a hobby and are independently wealthy, by all means pursue EM.
But there are no jobs.
EM was a corporate scam from the start.
Click to expand...
Maybe now but in 1999 when I matched there was a legitimate need for board certified EM docs. There has just been a severe overcorrection recently.
 
Tenk said:
I used to enjoy EM a lot. You can check my posts. Hell I even have challenged Miacomet on various aspects of the job in the past.

That’s really changed over the past 1-2 years. Now I feel like Damocles with a sword dangling over my head. One wrong move and I could lose my job and not have any backup. It’s a lot of unnecessary stress in a job that’s already stressful with high risk. In addition it seems like the outpatient world has gotten even lazier with covid and now everything is just “send to the ER.”

I wouldn’t do EM if I could go back.
Click to expand...

Most importantly, I've been proven right😆😆😆
 
I went to a "top" EM residency (whatever that means).

I went from 1+ recruiting email/week in 2018 to 0-1/mo in 2021.

One email I remember from last year...urgent care out in the boonies for 90/hr (100 miles outside of a 90k city). I jokingly responded back saying that was a ridiculously low rate that no sane person would consider. Well, the joke was on me, because I actually got an email from the recruiter saying that the spot was filled.

Residents graduating from my program this year...25% of those not doing fellowship have full time jobs. The rest are cobbling together several part times...and it's not out of choice. Word from the street from a friend who graduated from a mid-tier program a couple years ago and now works near another mid-tier program is that none of the grads from either program have full-time jobs.

Just think about that for a second.

That ACEP report of 9000 excess docs is in, what, 7 years? It's not as though in 6 years there are still jobs and in 7 years there are 9000 excess. There's a crunch already.

There are no jobs. Your student debt is climbing by the day. Or if you're lucky without debt, you still want to get on with your life and get to those milestones that you put off for 7+ years. You know, like trying to catch up with your college buddies' retirement accounts, or buying a house. But you have no translatable job skills other than EM-ing.

Good luck.
 
slavicman said:
Hey all I'm a rising MS4 who was formerly all-in for EM until the recent oversaturation woes. Would it be best to apply only to top rated EM programs at this point in order to minimize the odds of being unemployed upon residency completion?

Even if I am able to secure a job, I'm not mentally prepared to live in a place like rural Montana (not that there's anything wrong with living there, but it's just somewhere that I personally wouldn't be happy). I have been contemplating switching to IM, a close second-choice for me (mainly due to the fellowship opportunities). I love a lot about EM, specifically the fast-paced environment and the undifferentiated patients, but do sometimes miss the intellectual stimulation of IM (then I remember how much I hate rounding, long notes, etc.). Ultimately, I would rather go into a specialty that I am less passionate about which allows me to have significantly more job security and geographic preference.

Could the job market recover by the time current MS3s/MS4s complete residency or will things continuously worsen? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Click to expand...

I can't emphasize this enough. You really need to choose a career in medicine that you will enjoy doing. If you are picking a career based on job availability, you will be so friggin miserable every single day with your job that you don't want to do. If EM is your calling and you've done your rotations and you enjoy working in the ER and you don't want to work behind a desk in a clinic or do surgery, then do EM.

There's lots of doom and gloom, but you think doctors in other fields are uniformly happy with their careers?
 
JAFERD_MD said:
I went to a "top" EM residency (whatever that means).

I went from 1+ recruiting email/week in 2018 to 0-1/mo in 2021.

One email I remember from last year...urgent care out in the boonies for 90/hr (100 miles outside of a 90k city). I jokingly responded back saying that was a ridiculously low rate that no sane person would consider. Well, the joke was on me, because I actually got an email from the recruiter saying that the spot was filled.

Residents graduating from my program this year...25% of those not doing fellowship have full time jobs. The rest are cobbling together several part times...and it's not out of choice. Word from the street from a friend who graduated from a mid-tier program a couple years ago and now works near another mid-tier program is that none of the grads from either program have full-time jobs.

Just think about that for a second.

That ACEP report of 9000 excess docs is in, what, 7 years? It's not as though in 6 years there are still jobs and in 7 years there are 9000 excess. There's a crunch already.

There are no jobs. Your student debt is climbing by the day. Or if you're lucky without debt, you still want to get on with your life and get to those milestones that you put off for 7+ years. You know, like trying to catch up with your college buddies' retirement accounts, or buying a house. But you have no translatable job skills other than EM-ing.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Yeah; ACEP needs to pull a real rabbit out of their hat, or else their words of "we're taking action to ensure *whatever*" will result in their demise.
There are these strange nuances peppered into their words about "expanding the EP's footprint" and "brick and mortar" and whatever. It almost makes me feel like they've got something... (anything?).... cooking.
 
I am an outsider to em but was originally considering it prior to choosing FM. The goldmine that was once EM looks like it’s disappearing however the jobs are still there if you’re willing to move. Some may not pay as much as the old timers were used to getting either but this is happening all across medicine not just EM. I agree with the above poster that you should still choose the field you want to go into based on what you want to do with the rest of your life.
 
thegenius said:
I can't emphasize this enough. You really need to choose a career in medicine that you will enjoy doing. If you are picking a career based on job availability, you will be so friggin miserable every single day with your job that you don't want to do. If EM is your calling and you've done your rotations and you enjoy working in the ER and you don't want to work behind a desk in a clinic or do surgery, then do EM.

There's lots of doom and gloom, but you think doctors in other fields are uniformly happy with their careers?
Click to expand...
Still, can't enjoy a job that you don't have.
 
Make Or Break said:
I am an outsider to em but was originally considering it prior to choosing FM. The goldmine that was once EM looks like it’s disappearing however the jobs are still there if you’re willing to move. Some may not pay as much as the old timers were used to getting either but this is happening all across medicine not just EM. I agree with the above poster that you should still choose the field you want to go into based on what you want to do with the rest of your life.
Click to expand...

Yes some jobs exist. Will they exist in 4 years and after 10,000 new graduates in those 4 years by the time OP finishes residency. The answer to that is most likely no. And at that point, some experienced physicians will also be looking for jobs who will be preferred over new grads.
 
Tenk said:
I used to enjoy EM a lot. You can check my posts. Hell I even have challenged Miacomet on various aspects of the job in the past.

That’s really changed over the past 1-2 years. Now I feel like Damocles with a sword dangling over my head. One wrong move and I could lose my job and not have any backup. It’s a lot of unnecessary stress in a job that’s already stressful with high risk. In addition it seems like the outpatient world has gotten even lazier with covid and now everything is just “send to the ER.”

I wouldn’t do EM if I could go back.
Click to expand...

Too bad most of our colleagues don't realize this. There would be a lot more push for change. But nope. The future is any one of us getting fired for a even a tiny mistake and replaced with one of the hundreds to thousands of unemployed docs for half our pay. They'll be looking for any reason to dump you.
 
cyanide12345678 said:
Yes some jobs exist. Will they exist in 4 years and after 10,000 new graduates in those 4 years by the time OP finishes residency. The answer to that is most likely no. And at that point, some experienced physicians will also be looking for jobs who will be preferred over new grads.
Click to expand...
So you’re literally calling rock bottom prices to work in the ER or so much competition that you won’t even be able to find a job? Because that’s simply not true.
 
Make Or Break said:
So you’re literally calling rock bottom prices to work in the ER or so much competition that you won’t even be able to find a job? Because that’s simply not true.
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Why is it not true? Over-supply of physicians, mean prices will be driven down to the lowest level that people are still willing to work. Likely $120-$150/hr.
 
GeneralVeers said:
Why is it not true? Over-supply of physicians, mean prices will be driven down to the lowest level that people are still willing to work. Likely $120-$150/hr.
Click to expand...
So unless midlevels practice solo, which by that point it doesn’t only threaten EM but every specialty except for probably surgery, prices will eventually hit a point where no one in their right mind will be willing to take up the work. You have so many other factors at play here. With all the doom and gloom talk that’s been going on, I’ll be curious to see how the match will play out in the upcoming 3-5 years. I would bet the number of med students wanting to take up EM to decrease. That’s Hospitalist and urgent care pay right now. It’s not ER pay and likely won’t be in the next 4-5 years because the work is not even close to equal. Others are calling more along the lines of 175-200. Again I stand by my point to do what you love.
 
Make Or Break said:
So you’re literally calling rock bottom prices to work in the ER or so much competition that you won’t even be able to find a job? Because that’s simply not true.
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand the reality of the situation. There is going to be unemployed physicians. There already is. As people, such as myself, that cannot be unemployed take all the less desirable jobs over the next 1-3 years, there will be absolutely nothing left. Salaries will plummet until were paid the same as NPPs as CMCs fire and churn older docs for new grads.

It's extremely simple. Supply and demand.
 
Make Or Break said:
So unless midlevels practice solo, which by that point it doesn’t only threaten EM but every specialty except for probably surgery, prices will eventually hit a point where no one in their right mind will be willing to take up the work. You have so many other factors at play here. With all the doom and gloom talk that’s been going on, I’ll be curious to see how the match will play out in the upcoming 3-5 years. I would bet the number of med students wanting to take up EM to decrease. That’s Hospitalist and urgent care pay right now. It’s not ER pay and likely won’t be in the next 4-5 years because the work is not even close to equal. Others are calling more along the lines of 175-200. Again I stand by my point to do what you love.
Click to expand...

Youre assuming you actually get to do it. Meaning actually have a job.
 
Rekt said:
I don't think you understand the reality of the situation. There is going to be unemployed physicians. There already is. As people, such as myself, that cannot be unemployed take all the less desirable jobs over the next 1-3 years, there will be absolutely nothing left. Salaries will plummet until were paid the same as NPPs as CMCs fire and churn older docs for new grads.

It's extremely simple. Supply and demand.
Click to expand...
I could also see reverse subsidies becoming a reality, where hospitals with great payer mixes start awarding contracts to the highest bidder.

So, for example- today you have a SDG staffing a hospital in a upscale suburb in the Bay Area, Connecticut, Aspen, etc. that currently supports an hourly rate of $325 for its docs with no stipend. As the market is flooded with EP’s, hospitals could be emboldened to charge a six or seven figure fee for the “privilege” of staffing its ED, driving those hourly rates down to the mean.

nobody is safe
 
Make Or Break said:
So unless midlevels practice solo, which by that point it doesn’t only threaten EM but every specialty except for probably surgery, prices will eventually hit a point where no one in their right mind will be willing to take up the work. You have so many other factors at play here. With all the doom and gloom talk that’s been going on, I’ll be curious to see how the match will play out in the upcoming 3-5 years. I would bet the number of med students wanting to take up EM to decrease. That’s Hospitalist and urgent care pay right now. It’s not ER pay and likely won’t be in the next 4-5 years because the work is not even close to equal. Others are calling more along the lines of 175-200. Again I stand by my point to do what you love.
Click to expand...

There are A LOT of medical students who would happily work in EM even if they made 100/hr. I warned my friend applying to EM in 2019 about the job market and her reply was “It’s okay, I don’t care about the money.” As students, we’ve never worked for 200/hr before and don’t really understand the concept of what level of pay is “worth it.” But new EM physicians getting paid less is the least of their worries. The real issue is whether or not they get any job at all.
 
The jobs that are still available are overwhelmingly at rural low volume sites which mostly pays 150/hr already.

Envision is going to a 100/hr with RVUs model which roughly pays 140/hr at these exact same hospitals.
 
Make Or Break said:
So unless midlevels practice solo, which by that point it doesn’t only threaten EM but every specialty except for probably surgery, prices will eventually hit a point where no one in their right mind will be willing to take up the work. You have so many other factors at play here. With all the doom and gloom talk that’s been going on, I’ll be curious to see how the match will play out in the upcoming 3-5 years. I would bet the number of med students wanting to take up EM to decrease. That’s Hospitalist and urgent care pay right now. It’s not ER pay and likely won’t be in the next 4-5 years because the work is not even close to equal. Others are calling more along the lines of 175-200. Again I stand by my point to do what you love.
Click to expand...
Why do veterinarians get paid like garbage yet carry similar student debt and grueling competition to become one.

Because they have the same “do what you love” attitude and “I am a snowflake” outlook
 
Make Or Break said:
So you’re literally calling rock bottom prices to work in the ER or so much competition that you won’t even be able to find a job? Because that’s simply not true.
Click to expand...

I mean.... Have you tried looking for a job? I did 6 months ago when i wanted to move 🙂 can't imagine doing it when there's truly a 10k ER doctor surplus.

When someone graduates from residency and can find nothing other than offers for $120-150/hr, they will take it. You take what you can get when you have 300k of debt and a family.

Call it doom And gloom. But there are legitly already people who are struggling to find jobs. And this is when we are hitting equilibrium between supply and demand.

Also... Are you a resident or med student? Every single person who is an attending, who knows the job market because they live in it, work in different places, is saying things will be crap. But you sound like a niave med student or resident that hasnt even applied for an EM post residency job. If you don't know the market, have not experienced the decline, do not misguide people. Do what you love is a dumb mantra. A job is a job. Even the most passionate doctors who apparently love what they do, are really really really really happy when they finish a string of 4-5 shifts and get time off or are going to vacation and not working. Would i rather be sipping a margarita at an all inclusive resort at a beach or working my ass off and seeing 20 patients in the first 4-5 hours of my shift....... Its not a tough choice.

Do what gives you the best lifestyle. The best hours, regular life, maximizes time with family, maximizes time away from work, so you can prioritize things that are important in life - family, time with loved ones and human connection, personal growth and satisfaction.
 
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Make Or Break said:
So unless midlevels practice solo, which by that point it doesn’t only threaten EM but every specialty except for probably surgery, prices will eventually hit a point where no one in their right mind will be willing to take up the work. You have so many other factors at play here. With all the doom and gloom talk that’s been going on, I’ll be curious to see how the match will play out in the upcoming 3-5 years. I would bet the number of med students wanting to take up EM to decrease. That’s Hospitalist and urgent care pay right now. It’s not ER pay and likely won’t be in the next 4-5 years because the work is not even close to equal. Others are calling more along the lines of 175-200. Again I stand by my point to do what you love.
Click to expand...

And you obviously don't realize that if there are residency spots to fill, a good 80-90 percent of those will still fill regardless of how crappy a specialty is.

Let's see ... all the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and other foreign 3rd world countries can either practice in their home countries and make $1000-2500/month or they can move to the US, do residency and make $20k/month. The choice is obvious. The spots will fill as soon as the word gets around that any particular specialty is easy to get into 🙂
 
cyanide12345678 said:
And you obviously don't realize that if there are residency spots to fill, a good 80-90 percent of those will still fill regardless of how crappy a specialty is.

Let's see ... all the Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and other foreign 3rd world countries can either practice in their home countries and make $1000-2500/month or they can move to the US, do residency and make $20k/month. The choice is obvious. The spots will fill as soon as the word gets around that any particular specialty is easy to get into 🙂
Click to expand...
If you do a US residency are you guaranteed that you can stay in the US and practice?
 
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