Applying to IM with primary care in mind?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

bronx43

Word.
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2006
Messages
2,863
Reaction score
2,819
I know this may vary amongst programs, but do you think PDs would frown upon someone applying to IM with the intent of doing primary care? Do most prefer residents that become hospitalists and specialists, or do they have no preference? I'm applying to IM without any intention of doing a fellowship, and as of now, I'm leaning heavily towards doing outpatient primary care (I don't like peds or ob, which is why i'm not doing FM). Do you think that a PD would have any negative thoughts if I was clear about that on my app?
 
i dont see why they'd care especially since so many programs have a primary care track available and have ambulatory clinic set up for residents once a week as well
 
I know this may vary amongst programs, but do you think PDs would frown upon someone applying to IM with the intent of doing primary care? Do most prefer residents that become hospitalists and specialists, or do they have no preference? I'm applying to IM without any intention of doing a fellowship, and as of now, I'm leaning heavily towards doing outpatient primary care (I don't like peds or ob, which is why i'm not doing FM). Do you think that a PD would have any negative thoughts if I was clear about that on my app?

IMHO, you should make it clear on your application what you want to do with your life (assuming you've thought that far ahead). If you want to be a PCP, let folks know. They're a dying breed in IM and, while the big names have massive chubs for people who want to do GI and Cards, there are about 200 other good IM residency programs that want to train both generalists and sub-specialists.
 
IMHO, you should make it clear on your application what you want to do with your life (assuming you've thought that far ahead). If you want to be a PCP, let folks know. They're a dying breed in IM and, while the big names have massive chubs for people who want to do GI and Cards, there are about 200 other good IM residency programs that want to train both generalists and sub-specialists.

Wait, so you're saying half of the programs out there won't want a internist interested in primary care? If that's the case, I might as well hide that fact on my app.
 
Wait, so you're saying half of the programs out there won't want a internist interested in primary care? If that's the case, I might as well hide that fact on my app.

No...there are 372 (I counted) IM programs in the country. There are about 20 of them that think primary care is for suckers. There are about 150 crappy programs. The remainder...the 200 I mentioned above...are the ones that recognize and support the diversity of the specialty of internal medicine.

My point is that, with the exception of a very few programs, noting an interest in primary care will not have any detrimental effect on your application.

PS...it should be obvious that, with the exception of the total # of IM programs, the remainder of the numbers posted above were anally extracted immediately prior to posting.
 
Just curious...what do programs (including top academic centers) think about applicants interested in hospitalist medicine? Same thing as primary care? Or do they view this differently?
 
Some of the "top" programs are likely to frown on someone interested in primary care, and probably hospital medicine as well. However, even some of the "hoity toity" type places have primary care tracks, and/or a few spots for people who want to do academic general internal medicine of some sort. You may shoot yourself in the foot at a few placed by saying you want to do primary care but if you're that sure you want to do it, then you'd probably not like those programs anyway because most of them would force you to do a lot of ICU months and give you little time to do outpatient clinic months.
 
Some of the "top" programs are likely to frown on someone interested in primary care, and probably hospital medicine as well. However, even some of the "hoity toity" type places have primary care tracks, and/or a few spots for people who want to do academic general internal medicine of some sort. You may shoot yourself in the foot at a few placed by saying you want to do primary care but if you're that sure you want to do it, then you'd probably not like those programs anyway because most of them would force you to do a lot of ICU months and give you little time to do outpatient clinic months.

I would point out that this is not entirely true. Most if not all of the "top of the top" programs have primary care tracks. They would love to see an applicant interested in primary care. But there's a caveat, they are interested in someone who wants to do academic general medicine with medical education or research. Most medicine departments have GIM divisions, but they're really only about 10-15 GIM divisions that do real research, and they happen to be at the top of the top programs... i.e. Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, etc.

Same story as everything else. Tell them you are interested in academic primary care or general medicine and you will be fine.

Primary care/GIM is unpopular because it's not lucrative, but that doesn't mean programs frown upon it.
 
Yes, academic hospital medicine is exactly what I want to do. I'm looking around now for research projects going on at my school to get involved in. From some reading I've done, it sounds like hospitalists typically are involved in researching the broad issues affecting hospital medicine (epidemiology, pt/physician interactions, maybe some ethics?). Is this correct? These are issues that are especially interesting to me, but I'm concerned that some of the "top," research-heavy programs may favor applicants with substantial bench work/"sciency" research experience and interests. Thoughts?
 
Some of the "top" programs are likely to frown on someone interested in primary care, and probably hospital medicine as well. However, even some of the "hoity toity" type places have primary care tracks, and/or a few spots for people who want to do academic general internal medicine of some sort. You may shoot yourself in the foot at a few placed by saying you want to do primary care but if you're that sure you want to do it, then you'd probably not like those programs anyway because most of them would force you to do a lot of ICU months and give you little time to do outpatient clinic months.

ICU actually sounds much more appealing to me than outpatient clinic (although I haven't done an ICU rotation, so I guess I don't really know?). I much prefer the hospital environment (the energy, pace, feeling of teamwork, more acutely ill patients whom you see every day vs every few months).
 
Yes, academic hospital medicine is exactly what I want to do. I'm looking around now for research projects going on at my school to get involved in. From some reading I've done, it sounds like hospitalists typically are involved in researching the broad issues affecting hospital medicine (epidemiology, pt/physician interactions, maybe some ethics?). Is this correct? These are issues that are especially interesting to me, but I'm concerned that some of the "top," research-heavy programs may favor applicants with substantial bench work/"sciency" research experience and interests. Thoughts?

They will favor your stats first, and if you have the stats, any research project added on will help. You aren't matching at UCSF with average stats no matter what research you have unless you come from UCSF or have some kind of connection. If you have the stats, you give yourself a good shot with or without research, and any kind of research would help. So, in short, I would say, just get involved in the research that interests you.

Hospitalists can get involved in everything you mentioned above. Hospitalism is a growing and evolving field without a tremendous amount of research connected to it compared to other fields. Most GIM researchers work in primary care because of tradition, but in the future more and more Hospitalists will perform research. It's just a matter of time because clinically, much of what GIM researchers examine belong in the Hospitalist arena anyway.
 
Last edited:
Wait, so you're saying half of the programs out there won't want a internist interested in primary care? If that's the case, I might as well hide that fact on my app.

If you're an AMG with decent test scores and a dean's letter that doesn't contain any major red flags, residency application is as much about you finding the program that will give you the training you need as it is about convincing them to take you. Many academic programs in IM have de-emphasized clinic medicine to the point where it is actually hard to graduate feeling confident in your ability to be a good PCP.

When you go to interviews, you need to be asking questions about the program's ability to provide you with a good clinic experience - true patient continuity, seeing enough patients to feel comfortable with work flow and volume in clinic, and seeing a variety of complaints, from chronic disease management to minor acute problems. It is probably safe to say that more than half the clinic opportunities offered by the top 50 academic IM programs will fail you on one or all of these fronts; you won't see enough patients, you won't see your own patients (and get to know them), or you won't see acute care issues because you do have your own patients and since you're only there 1 day/week, they wait a long time to get in to see you, so there are no last-minute bookings. Most of the top 50 programs have a clinic or two that will adequately prepare you for primary care (or a track) but you need to be open about what you want to do in order to figure that out.

I would also argue that going to a top program might lead to a miserable 3 years of you getting set aside and sent to the back of the line for scheduling, research opportunities, etc because you don't "need" certain things if you "just" want to be a PCP. So you need to find a program that will value what you want to do, and will help you get the training you need to do it the same way they help someone who is applying to cards or GI. (The PCP internist is a dying breed, but a very valuable addition to the community of medicine, and one that some of us suspect will be missed a few years from now when we figure out that having multiple sub-specialty clinical 'homes' isn't the most cost efficient _or_ the most effective way to practice medicine.) I didn't train at any of the top 20 institutions, but I suspect that as GlutonNC suggests, they might not prioritize your needs, because they might have the mistaken impression that primary care is for suckers, or that training in their hallowed halls will surely graduate you ready to be a great primary care internist without even thinking about what skills you might need to hone. (It's an easy job after all, in their minds.)

Do you want to spend 3 years of residency training somewhere where your colleagues are all trying to throw you under the bus lest you get in the way of their fellowship dreams, and where what you want to do is perceived as less valuable or easier than what they want to do? Or do you want to go somewhere that will recognize the value of what you want to do and prioritize you equally? If the latter is true, you should interview broadly in the geographical regions you'd be happy to end up with and ask specific questions about primary care training. It'll be easy to tell if it's something they care about.
 
If you're an AMG with decent test scores and a dean's letter that doesn't contain any major red flags, residency application is as much about you finding the program that will give you the training you need as it is about convincing them to take you. Many academic programs in IM have de-emphasized clinic medicine to the point where it is actually hard to graduate feeling confident in your ability to be a good PCP.

When you go to interviews, you need to be asking questions about the program's ability to provide you with a good clinic experience - true patient continuity, seeing enough patients to feel comfortable with work flow and volume in clinic, and seeing a variety of complaints, from chronic disease management to minor acute problems. It is probably safe to say that more than half the clinic opportunities offered by the top 50 academic IM programs will fail you on one or all of these fronts; you won't see enough patients, you won't see your own patients (and get to know them), or you won't see acute care issues because you do have your own patients and since you're only there 1 day/week, they wait a long time to get in to see you, so there are no last-minute bookings. Most of the top 50 programs have a clinic or two that will adequately prepare you for primary care (or a track) but you need to be open about what you want to do in order to figure that out.

I would also argue that going to a top program might lead to a miserable 3 years of you getting set aside and sent to the back of the line for scheduling, research opportunities, etc because you don't "need" certain things if you "just" want to be a PCP. So you need to find a program that will value what you want to do, and will help you get the training you need to do it the same way they help someone who is applying to cards or GI. (The PCP internist is a dying breed, but a very valuable addition to the community of medicine, and one that some of us suspect will be missed a few years from now when we figure out that having multiple sub-specialty clinical 'homes' isn't the most cost efficient _or_ the most effective way to practice medicine.) I didn't train at any of the top 20 institutions, but I suspect that as GlutonNC suggests, they might not prioritize your needs, because they might have the mistaken impression that primary care is for suckers, or that training in their hallowed halls will surely graduate you ready to be a great primary care internist without even thinking about what skills you might need to hone. (It's an easy job after all, in their minds.)

Do you want to spend 3 years of residency training somewhere where your colleagues are all trying to throw you under the bus lest you get in the way of their fellowship dreams, and where what you want to do is perceived as less valuable or easier than what they want to do? Or do you want to go somewhere that will recognize the value of what you want to do and prioritize you equally? If the latter is true, you should interview broadly in the geographical regions you'd be happy to end up with and ask specific questions about primary care training. It'll be easy to tell if it's something they care about.

If you are interested in academic GIM and research, I wouldn't listen to this advice. Go to the top program you can. The reality is that no one is going to criticize you if you want to do academic GIM and the ACGME is requiring more and more clinic time every year for all programs. If you want to do outpatient private practice IM, then there a lot of programs will be fine, and many that will teach you to be a PCP much better than the top places, however they probably don't have the research, and you can learn a lot of the things you need to be a good PCP on your own.
 
Top