Applying to med school and vet school...

[Pet of the Week]

lol

But really, I'd argue the points but they've already been beaten to death. However, I do think that your perspective on vets is more than a bit skewed. I mean I work in shelter medicine too, and while the occasional shelter vet couldn't give a ****, most care a lot about the animals. They sure aren't in it for the money.

And for patient education, now I'm biased from working in shelter medicine, but people are bleeping(i wish i could curse on this forum) CHEAP. They don't even want to pay for booster vaxx, much less a heartworm test/heartworm meds/sterilization/fecal. Yeah a lot of stuff is preventable, but a good portion of pet owners are not going to even attempt to prevent these things because they are cheap and they honestly don't care. And then when fluffy gets parvo/dystocia/etc, they will come crying to the animal shelter to unload it because they were unwilling to do any preventative maintenance. It's frustrating as hell to work in shelter medicine, and I could never be a vet who does it because I would get really pissed off. You might still consider looking into following private practice around. It's a change to see people who actually spend money on animals without crying about money for the baby momma or the old "I'm a senior on a fixed income" person who is barely 40.

edited to add: "Senseless killing" is a loaded phrase, and not something that should be used in a scientific context. It is anthropomorphizing the animals and is something they are doing from a customer service side of things, not a vet side of things.

It's admittedly a small N perspective. I have worked directly with three vets and have been through four vets for my animals. It took four to find one that provided adequate information and care.

Yes, there are a lot of cheap people out there... We had a guy come in to look at kittens. He wanted to know why we don't just give them away. Our sixty five dollar adoption fee was "outrageous" when they would just be killed if he didn't take them home. Sixty five dollars doesn't cover our expenses. All animals are spay/neutered before they go out and up to date on shots, not to mention the personnel and basic care they needed during their time in our facilities. I told him that if he couldn't pay sixty five dollars for an adoption fee, than he couldn't afford the cost of caring for the cat. I think that a lot of people don't think past the initial let's get a kitty idea. They are impulse buyers. Part of our job is to slow them down and educate them on what they are getting into.

Is it the term "senseless killing" that is offensive? Clearly, I'm referring to the euthanasia of healthy animals. Clearly, unless of course, someone has chosen to assume otherwise without actually reading my posts.

But like I said, I'm staying away from vet school. Hope that puts everyone's mind at ease..... God forbid someone who doesn't want to kill healthy less than cute kitties or cut off toes might want to go into veterinary medicine.

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[DVMDream]

I am neither offensive nor naive. It's your choice to be offended. Maybe you should consider why you, personally, find my viewpoint so offensive. I have mentioned problems that I have seen and experienced not only in my current position with an animal rescue organization, but also as a pet owner (a consumer of veterinary medicine if you choose to see it that way), and also working at veterinary clinics. The attitude that I somehow don't know what I am talking about or don't have enough experience is absolutely ridiculous.
And if you don't agree that senseless killing is a problem, you are entitled to that opinion. But don't say it is impossible to stop. Education, S/N programs...we, concerned animal rescue workers, are on the front lines of this movement. Veterinarians are NOT. They are not pushing owners to spay/neuter or keep their animals up to date on vaccinations and important preventives. A person should not have to ask the veterinarian for things like heartworm preventive. Veterinarians should be educating their patients' owners, rather than simply fulfilling whatever that person has asked and nothing more. How many animals are surrendered and euthanized because they have an illness that could have been prevented? A lot. Go ahead and say that veterinarians are offering adequate care to their patients, but I know better. Veterinary medicine is nothing more than a commercial industry working for selfish people rather than serving animals. Thank you for preventing me from making a huge mistake.

I do not know what h**l of a vet clinic you worked in, but after 4 years as a vet tech working in various clinics throughout the state I can tell you that you have a VERY naive idea of vet med. EVERY client that walks into the clinic is offered all vaccines necessary. A great number of these clients deny at least one if not all of the recommended vaccines. After they deny the recommended vaccines they are REQUIRED to sign a form stating that they have been OFFERED the vaccine and have refused. As a tech, I go in and explain IN DETAIL the vaccines, what they are, and when they should be given. I then explain IN DETAIL heartworm disease and its prevention. If they deny this they have to sign ANOTHER form saying that we offered it, explained it to them and that they are refusing it. Then, I explain about intestinal parasites and how those should be prevented. All new puppies get a PUPPY KIT, a free de-wormer, and the owners are thoroughly told about vaccines and why they are important. I also talk about spaying and neutering. I can not even begin to tell you how many clients I have talked to who have the “my dog needs to be macho so I am not S/N.” I have even convinced a few of these owners to S/N. There are many other things that I go over with clients, but this is just a few of them. After I have talked with the client about these items, the vets go in and re-emphasize what I already said. Most of our staff meetings are about keeping the client informed from the time the receptionist says hello to the time the vet gets into the room. Our receptionist will even recommend vaccines, S/N, and HWT/HWP, then the vet tech does the same and then the vet goes over it again. I do not know if you have only been in shelter med. where you do not have to deal with clients or if you have just worked in s*** clinics that do not give a f***, but you have a very naïve and skewed view of vet med. Maybe try branching out into a small private practice that actually cares and then you would be able to see how many clients deny/refuse to do anything that the vet recommends. And you are right, you are making a HUGE mistake if this is the view you have on vet med.

 

[quantized]

Well yeah and that same guy will go out and get a free kitten in front of safeway and never fix it or get it vaxx because they're too expensive even at the cheapo mobile clinic and he doesn't care, and the problem continues on.

It's not that people don't care about putting to sleep cute fluffy animals, it's that at some point the animals bottleneck. All available space fills up, and then what do you do? Rent a tent city for them? Have a fire sale of kittens? It's not fair to the animals to have them in crowded and unsanitary conditions, and it's not fair to the employees who aren't being paid enough under the best of situations. Unfortunately, it's often the case that the most adoptable animals are kept, and the difficult cases are put down, especially in a city run shelter.

Even if you are a no kill, people are turned away (we have a 3 month waiting list at the moment, and we're a no kill of adoptable animals non profit shelter - we put down sick animals or those with behavior problems), and what do they do with their animals? Most either take them to the city shelter, where holding dates can be as low as 72 hours, or they set them free to fend for themselves. I'd rather euthanize an animal than have it set free to fend for itself.

In any case, your shelter seems to have a management problem. Someone is taking in too many animals without having enough space for them and without clearing them through health/behavior first.

And I didn't say "senseless killing" was offensive...just loaded.

 

[Pet of the Week]

I also adopted a dog from a no-kill shelter with similar problems. 2 years later she is doing much better. She is happy and much more outgoing than she had been. But, if you really think about it a large shelter that takes in every animal brought to them can not possibly spend 2 years on one dog. The amount of time, money, and energy spent on that one dog could have given 35 or more dogs good homes. I absolutely love my dog, and to think if she had been brought to a large shelter she would have been euthanized breaks my heart. But, when I look at the bigger picture I can completely understand. It does not seem “fair” or “right”, but it is better to euthanize one highly unadoptable animal then 10 highly adoptable animals. The large shelters do as much as they can. They care about the animals just as much as no-kill shelters. It is just not feasible for a large shelter to spend the time and resources on animals that could eventually be adopted with some work.



As far as declawing cats goes, I can see how this could be considered cruelty or just plain wrong. But, I have to agree with PrimalMU. Are you going to refuse to declaw a cat whose owner has hemophilia? Trimming nails may help some but it is not going to prevent a cat from scratching things. Not all cats are going to let you trim their nails either. I have always hated the thought of declawing cats and I still do not agree with it 100%, but I do not disagree with it either. When my mom told me that she wanted our cat declawed, I was so mad. I told her that I would not let them do it, but it was either declaw or no cat. So, I told her she had to do the laser declaw. The laser declaw is absolutely AMAZING. My cat had virtually NO bleeding and acted as though nothing happened. Advancements in medicine have made declawing a much simpler procedure, with minimal bleeding and hardly any pain. All of the clients who had their cats declawed with the laser were absolutely thrilled with the outcomes and surprised by how well their cats did. Another thing to think about, if declawing were to become banned would people attempt to do it on their own? I would hope not, but then there are people who crop their own dogs’ ears and cut off the tails and dewclaws on their own puppies so it is possible that somebody could be crazy enough to attempt to declaw their cat. If it really comes down to: declaw the cat or let it go to a shelter where it could be euthanized I would have to declaw the cat. It is better for the cat to have a home than no home.

You know, I think they started out that way (concerned for the animals just as we are), but then got bogged down in this huge seemingly insurmountable problem. But they have three animal rescue organizations to lean on, and I just wish they would utilize that before making such quick life or death decisions. Currently, we are the only organization dealing with cats, but we could have taken more than we did this summer if only they had given these animals a chance. In general, they call us with numbers, and we come pick them up.

As for the declawing, that's an excellent ethical thought provoking situation that I hadn't thought of at all. Thanks for bringing it up. I believe the kitty would even agree to have a procedure in this case if he could just as a human might agree to donate a kidney or bone marrow, undergoing painful procedures for the sake of another. When put in the position of having to make decisions for those who cannot speak for themselves, I think it's very important that we consider all outcomes of any actions before taking them.

Of course, if a person does not already have the cat, they could adopt one that was already declawed. We get lots of declawed kitties who have been surrendered by their owners, and I disagree with the argument that declawing prevents a cat from becoming homeless. It simply makes it more difficult for a cat to survive if left on the street.

I've seen the nasty toe chopping and ripping procedure. If it were a human, I wouldn't find it so awful.

 

[DVMDream]

I've seen the nasty toe chopping and ripping procedure.

Find a clinic that does laser declaws and ask to observe one...they are a MILLION times better.

 

[Pet of the Week]

I do not know what h**l of a vet clinic you worked in, but after 4 years as a vet tech working in various clinics throughout the state I can tell you that you have a VERY naive idea of vet med. EVERY client that walks into the clinic is offered all vaccines necessary. A great number of these clients deny at least one if not all of the recommended vaccines. After they deny the recommended vaccines they are REQUIRED to sign a form stating that they have been OFFERED the vaccine and have refused. As a tech, I go in and explain IN DETAIL the vaccines, what they are, and when they should be given. I then explain IN DETAIL heartworm disease and its prevention. If they deny this they have to sign ANOTHER form saying that we offered it, explained it to them and that they are refusing it. Then, I explain about intestinal parasites and how those should be prevented. All new puppies get a PUPPY KIT, a free de-wormer, and the owners are thoroughly told about vaccines and why they are important. I also talk about spaying and neutering. I can not even begin to tell you how many clients I have talked to who have the “my dog needs to be macho so I am not S/N.” I have even convinced a few of these owners to S/N. There are many other things that I go over with clients, but this is just a few of them. After I have talked with the client about these items, the vets go in and re-emphasize what I already said. Most of our staff meetings are about keeping the client informed from the time the receptionist says hello to the time the vet gets into the room. Our receptionist will even recommend vaccines, S/N, and HWT/HWP, then the vet tech does the same and then the vet goes over it again. I do not know if you have only been in shelter med. where you do not have to deal with clients or if you have just worked in s*** clinics that do not give a f***, but you have a very naïve and skewed view of vet med. Maybe try branching out into a small private practice that actually cares and then you would be able to see how many clients deny/refuse to do anything that the vet recommends. And you are right, you are making a HUGE mistake if this is the view you have on vet med.

Where is this? I especially like the idea of having written documents that the owner must sign. I've never seen anything like this in vet med. We do something similar in our adoption process. There is an agreement they sign saying they agree to keep animals on appropriate preventives. Of course, it's difficult to enforce these agreements. We have occasionally repossessed animals, and then had to put scarce resources into getting them healthy again so they can go to a more appropriate home. We've had a few come back with heartworm. That's what frustrates me the most. We really can't afford to treat them, and preventive is cheap.

 

[Pet of the Week]

Well yeah and that same guy will go out and get a free kitten in front of safeway and never fix it or get it vaxx because they're too expensive even at the cheapo mobile clinic and he doesn't care, and the problem continues on.

It's not that people don't care about putting to sleep cute fluffy animals, it's that at some point the animals bottleneck. All available space fills up, and then what do you do? Rent a tent city for them? Have a fire sale of kittens? It's not fair to the animals to have them in crowded and unsanitary conditions, and it's not fair to the employees who aren't being paid enough under the best of situations. Unfortunately, it's often the case that the most adoptable animals are kept, and the difficult cases are put down, especially in a city run shelter.

Even if you are a no kill, people are turned away (we have a 3 month waiting list at the moment, and we're a no kill of adoptable animals non profit shelter - we put down sick animals or those with behavior problems), and what do they do with their animals? Most either take them to the city shelter, where holding dates can be as low as 72 hours, or they set them free to fend for themselves. I'd rather euthanize an animal than have it set free to fend for itself.

In any case, your shelter seems to have a management problem. Someone is taking in too many animals without having enough space for them and without clearing them through health/behavior first.

And I didn't say "senseless killing" was offensive...just loaded.

Strangely enough, it's a family (mother and three daughters or a cousin or something) running the shelter. It's kind of like a restaurant.

I know what you mean about the animals bottle-necking. It happens every summer. We have tiny kittens come in and grow into adult cats before they are adopted.

Come Christmas, we won't have enough animals to meet the demand. We only do 60 or so adoptions a month in the summer. From Thanksgiving through Valentines Day, we do 10+ a day if we have animals available. Too bad adoption season doesn't coincide with puppy/kitten season.

 

[DVMDream]

Where is this? I especially like the idea of having written documents that the owner must sign. I've never seen anything like this in vet med. We do something similar in our adoption process. There is an agreement they sign saying they agree to keep animals on appropriate preventives. Of course, it's difficult to enforce these agreements. We have occasionally repossessed animals, and then had to put scarce resources into getting them healthy again so they can go to a more appropriate home. We've had a few come back with heartworm. That's what frustrates me the most. We really can't afford to treat them, and preventive is cheap.

AZ. In AZ, client education with vaccines is so important because parvo virus flourishes here. I have determined that parvo virus loves the heat.

 

[Pet of the Week]

AZ. Specifically Roadrunner Animal Hospital, but look up Arrow Group Animal Hospitals. All 18 hospitals in the Phoenix area do this. In AZ, client education with vaccines is so important because parvo virus flourishes here. I have determined that parvo virus loves the heat.

Earlier in the summer, the city shelter had to euthanize every puppy in the shelter and refuse any public surrender of a puppy due to a parvo outbreak. Parvo is insane. There's really nothing else they could have done. This was the only way to prevent every puppy who would enter the shelter from being at significant risk. I'm not completely unreasonable....

Perhaps AZ is a bit more forward than AL. Perhaps poverty and ideas about masculinity via hound dogs are not easily overcome in the deep south.

 

[DVMDream]

Earlier in the summer, the city shelter had to euthanize every puppy in the shelter and refuse any public surrender of a puppy due to a parvo outbreak. Parvo is insane. There's really nothing else they could have done. This was the only way to prevent every puppy who would enter the shelter from being at significant risk. I'm not completely unreasonable....

Perhaps AZ is a bit more forward than AL. Perhaps poverty and ideas about masculinity via hound dogs are not easily overcome in the deep south.

I hate parvo..we every once in a while will see a couple of cases in winter...doesn't get cold enough in AZ. With the economy the way it is now, it is hard to get people to do anything. Nobody has money. It is terrible.

 

[bunnity]

I'm not going to argue with you more about shelter euths because you're not addressing my main point re: math of shelter situations. While it is very possible that your area's shelter has some major issues with how it is run you should not be generalizing that to all high volume shelters. And if you can take in more animals, then take in more animals. Start doing intake.

I do have to say that I worked at a clinic within a shelter and with every single client we talked about flea, tick, and heartworm prevention. Everybody needing vaccines was told "Your pet is due for these shots," not as a question, but as a statement, and all summer that I was there I never saw anyone refuse (and this was not a nice area and no one there had money). Everyone got a free heartworm test. The vet talked to every single client about spay/neuter and if the client did not comply in getting the animal fixed we would not see them at our clinic after a certain age (six months I think). This put a lot of pressure on clients because they could not afford to go anywhere in private practice.

Just wanted to point out that there are vets, and even shelter vets, out there on the front lines, as you say. And that vets are kinda necessary for spay/neuter and all the surgeries going on have vets doing them. Unless the valiant rescue workers are doing the snipping themselves...

and a +1 to MinnerBelle.

 

[sunshinevet]

But like I said, I'm staying away from vet school. Hope that puts everyone's mind at ease.....

Yes, yes it does.

There are enough people who are keen to gain experience and understand the industry wanting to be vets already.

All you have done in this discussion is act as though you have the definitive experience, when everyone has been trying to tell you that your experience is the outlier, not the norm. (I mean really, if the veterinary industry is such a consumer driven industry [which, of course, to an extent it is, because, believe it or not, vets have to eat] they would be PUSHING every preventative medication/vaccine/test under the sun. Those bills rack up!)

You seem interested in getting on this forum and degrading and insulting the excellent work that a lot of people here do, but not interesting in having a closer look at this work yourself. You are very quick to jump on the "vets are evil" bandwagon, but not to come face to face with the heartbreaking desicions they have to make every day in the name of animal welfare. You do not seem remotely interested in actually gaining a greater understanding of the veterinary industry.

Good luck with that whole MD thing. I think MD adcoms are far more likely to let you back in, than a vet adcom is to let you in anywhere with ignorant views like yours.

 

[Minnerbelle]

But like I said, I'm staying away from vet school. Hope that puts everyone's mind at ease..... God forbid someone who doesn't want to kill healthy less than cute kitties or cut off toes might want to go into veterinary medicine.

As much as I've ripped on you, that makes me kind of sad. It sounds like you might end up a super jaded person who will be resentful of vets for the rest of your life having only had experience with a handful of vets you don't agree with.

One thing I don't think you realize is how many people here really believe in the same exact thing you believe in. No one here wants to kill healthy and ugly kittens (actually I LOVE ugly cats), and no one wants to go chopping off claws. F*ck, if you knew me personally, you would know that I am probably one of the most dedicated people you will ever meet to this cause.

When I worked at the "municipal" shelter, I would preemptively take home an animal who might be healthy and adoptable in a foster situation, but is definitely unadoptable at the shelter. So did everyone else who worked there. If the animal I spent weeks or months rehabilitating never turned around and I couldn't find a no-kill rescue that would take her, of course it broke my heart, but I was the one who sat there with her in my arms as she was being euthanized. I know that was the best outcome for that animal, because otherwise she would've just sat in a kennel FOREVER scared sh*tless. Call that senseless killing (you see how I'd take offense to what you said?). But once I knew that there was a very low chance of that animal ever getting adopted, and I was able to give her the most humane and compassionate ending to her suffering, I had room to give another "unadoptable" animal a chance.

I dunno, maybe the people at the shelter you dislike ARE purely evil, but also take into account that the coping mechanism for a lot of these people is a very dark sense of humor. I'm sure if you'd heard some of the things that came out of my mouth while at the shelter, you'd think I was the most horrible person in the world. And maybe the people running this place have all burnt out and are suffering from secondary post traumatic stress.

I absolutely HATE putting these "healthy but needs a very dedicated owner to put up with her" animals to sleep. I would love to find someone like you who would spend 2 yrs to rehabilitate this fearful/neurotic but sweet animal because of course she DESERVES to live, but if you have 50 of them in the shelter and only 2 suitable homes... what are you supposed to do? It's heartwrenching, but it's got to be done. I'll give them a super yummy treat, comfort them in a quiet room until they're relaxed, give them lots of love and kisses, LET THEM GO PEACEFULLY, and then maybe cry some on my way home. It's emotionally draining but I do it because I have a lot of compassion for these animals. Maybe it's hard for you to relate, but there is a lot of love behind the executioner.

But whatever, that's not what I wanted to say to you. What I wanted to say was that if no-kill rescue is something you're passionate about, then don't give it up to become an MD/DO just because some pre-vets yelled at you. Small no-kill rescues need affordable vets more than anything else. There are so many no-kill rescues that aren't big enough to have their own clinic and have to shell out sooo much money (and thereby waste precious resources) to work with some private clinic vet.

Maybe one thing you need to realize is that the only way shelter euthanasia's are going to end is if small no-kill rescues and large volume shelters meet half way. It's not fair of you to say that no-kill rescues are doing a good enough job, but that open shelters need to step it up. ALL rescue groups are responsible for ALL the animals in the community together. If open shelters is not your cup of tea, that's fine (it's not for most people). But if you're passionate about no kill rescues, then why give that up? With YOUR hard work and dedication as a veterinarian, maybe your no-kill org can expand enough to lessen the burden on the municipal shelter so that they can also become truly no-kill.

 

[Pointer1330]

I am neither offensive nor naive.

we, concerned animal rescue workers, are on the front lines of this movement. Veterinarians are NOT. They are not pushing owners to spay/neuter or keep their animals up to date on vaccinations and important preventives. A person should not have to ask the veterinarian for things like heartworm preventive. Veterinarians should be educating their patients' owners, rather than simply fulfilling whatever that person has asked and nothing more. How many animals are surrendered and euthanized because they have an illness that could have been prevented? A lot. Go ahead and say that veterinarians are offering adequate care to their patients, but I know better. Veterinary medicine is nothing more than a commercial industry working for selfish people rather than serving animals. Thank you for preventing me from making a huge mistake.

I can't believe you can write the first sentence above, and follow it up with that paragraph of garbage. We call you ignorant because you obviously haven't spent any time in an actual clinic setting. If you think veterinarians don't educate clients, you are again, ignorant.

Go ahead, pursue vet school and educate every single owner you can - that would be a great thing. Just be prepared for the frustration you'll encounter when people look at you and tell you they don't have the money to S/N, let alone for anything else. Or you spend 20 minutes educating them when you know they haven't paid attention or cared about more than 30 seconds of what you've told them. Or you educate them on HW, then they buy 3 months worth to never come back to buy any more. Then a year later they come back with a HW infested dog and ask you to euthanize it because they can't afford the $400 treatment. If you do go into veterinary medicine, I suggest you work in the highest class, white collar area you can. I can sure tell you that you wouldn't hack it out here in the rural midwest. What are you going to do when your client flat out tells you they can't or won't pay for a procedure/treatment, and they're just going out to the farm to 'dispose' of the animal. Are you going to do everything for free since the animal doesn't have a choice? Are you going to pay for boarding and treatment on every single animal that could be rehabilitated? At the end of the day that animal is owned by that person, and for better or worse it is theirs to decide what to do with. Thats the point I think you have the most difficult time grasping.

I could go on forever. You mentioned that you "know better", but I'm sorry to say there's a whole lot of reality in veterinary medicine you don't have a grasp on, and need to spend some time outside your no-kill shelter to get some exposure. Only then can you make an informed decision about vet med. I'm sorry this thread went south, but what do you expect when you address a group of people that are dedicating themselves to helping animals and you accuse them of not caring?

 

[Pointer1330]

I believe the kitty would even agree to have a procedure in this case if he could just as a human might agree to donate a kidney or bone marrow, undergoing painful procedures for the sake of another. When put in the position of having to make decisions for those who cannot speak for themselves, I think it's very important that we consider all outcomes of any actions before taking them.

And herein lies your biggest problem. There is absolutely no way you can use this line of thinking. First of all, our pets CAN'T think like this, that is why we make decisions for them.

You say fine then, I think we should make decisions on what WE THINK the animal would do or like. This is rediculous - where do you draw the line? Do pets have the choice to be domesticated and live in your house? What if they want to live somewhere else? What if they would be happier in the wild? What if they don't want to be spayed or neutered? What if they don't want rabies shots? The entire point here is that you can't just guess what you think an animal would do because you don't know. They don't have reasoning skills and that's why the owners make choices for them, right or wrong. Some people would donate bone marrow, but many would not - how do you know you have a cat that would agree to be declawed for the owner? I have to stop posting here because I have a feeling it's just going in one ear and out the other anyway...I don't think any of us are going to change your mind over this thread.

 

[BlacKAT33]

I have to stop posting here because I have a feeling it's just going in one ear and out the other anyway...I don't think any of us are going to change your mind over this thread.

As much as this thread annoys me because I know Pet of the Week will never change her(im assuming) views, I should also give thanks because with all this debate it seems to have made the week go by faster. tomorrow is friday!!

Side note: last saturday my friend who is a vet tech spent 20 min. trying to convince the macho man owner of a doberman pinscher to get him neutered. Sadly, he failed. We delayed the owners appt in hopes that they would eventually give in. Finally, after our vet. talked to him for 30 min (!!! wow such dedication) the owner finally agreed.

My last comment is: Pet of the week, if you do continue towards vet med, PLEASE look up vet hospitals in your area that do laser surgery. They usually advertise it on their website if they do. Ask if you can sit in on a declaw. You'd be amazed at how pain free it looks compared to what you have already seen. (im not saying it IS painfree, but it is a much better technique)

 

[dgm]

Anyone else starting to think we have a troll on our hands?

 

[BlacKAT33]

:troll:

 

[sumstorm]

OK, I have worked with Maddie's fund in several states, including it's state of origin. My experience is if these animals are being euth'd without cause, Maddie's fund would pick up on it. If you would like to name the county/state I will happily send the information to my contacts to investigate farther...of course, if you really found it offensive and are working with Maddie's fund, you could have done the same and haven't elected to. Simple as that. So, that leads me to wonder HOW MUCH you actually know about these animals? Maybe the entire litter has URI's, but they see it as more feasable to adopt out the cute ones which will likely get treatment from the owners. Maybe the Pit Bull dame has mastitis that is costly and difficult to treat, and no one has time to bottle feed the litter every couple of hours. Whatever the reasons, if it truely bothers you, why haven't you discussed it with your Maddie's fund representative? Why are you griping about a shelter that you obviously aren't working in?

Next, I have worked in shelters that have as few as a hundred animals a month come in...I have also dealt with a shelter that took is over 8,000 dogs over a single quarter. These shelters need support, assistance, and funding. If you are unable to provide enough of those things to deal with all the animals coming into that shelter, who are you to judge? If you are able to, why not step up and do it? Until you are the intake of everything and the solution to everything, perhaps your efforts would be better placed in positive energy that helps rather than dividing your energy between criticizing and casting judgement and helping where it is easier to do so (the no kill associate shelter.)

1. In an appropriate climate, I am virtually asymptomatic. And it was my previous school's intolerance and refusal to accommodate my disability that resulted in dismissal, and not the disability itself.

If this was true, you as an inteligent individual would have pursued fair treatment through the American's with Disabilities Act. Realize that whatever your records show from that old school will be viewable to an adcom that requests them. If you really felt they were intolerant and unaccomodating and you did every single thing appropriatly, why didn't you pursue it legally? Even if you never went back to the school, you would have the court judgement agreeing with you. I had to go through these procedures with my late husband. Also, the question then becomes, are you only applying in an appropriate climate and will an expert of your disease validate that it is climate controlled and will not disrupt your studies for the next 4-8 years? And will you only apply to schools in appropriate climates? Generally adcomes assume that past actions predict future actions; a student that got poor grades in undergrad will in grad school and a student that drops out is likely to do so again. Not saying it is fair or right or anything else, but that if you and another candidate are 100% equal for the position, adcomes are likely to give it to the individual who didn't blow the previous opportunity.

2. I trim my kitty's nails. It's not complicated. If your children are constantly slapping each other or picking their noses, do you have their hands surgically removed?

Good for you! I do too! And now I am in vet school, and my cats reside with my husband several hours away. He is a diabetic, and lacerations do NOT heal well on him. He tried to trim our cats nails twice and was injured both times; not a scrath that healed in 2 weeks, or even 4 weeks, but ones that he is still struggling with 2 months later. In the mean time, one of my cats, stressed by the change in living arrangements, has done about $4,000 worth of damage with her claws alone, let alone additional litter box issues that have permenantly ruined a hardwood floor), and that isnt' even counting the doctors visits to heal my husbands hands. So, in three months, I would assume the cost of the cat is >$10,000. She still has a home. I am well aware that in most households, she would have been shoved out the door or dropped at the shelter. We haven't even declawed her; instead we pay a vet clinic $20 to deal with her nails every other week....$480 in additional cost a year (more expensive than declawing her at the same clinic), not including the testing for UTI, consultation with a behaviorist, etc. And that every other week visit is INCREDIBLY stressful to her. There are days that it is very hard to deal with, that it causes fights and problems. If she was younger/smaller, I would, for the first time in my life, consider declawing. As for kids, my hope is that training/upbringing handles the issue....but kids don't hit each other to release scent marks....scratching items isn't part of their normal behavioral repertoire. And I expect human brains to develop and grow more sophisticated that I expect my cat's to. A ten year old child than beats up other ten year old's doesn't end up with hands cut off....they end up with hands restrained in cuffs. Either way, my cat isn't my child (if it were, I would be in jail for neglect/abandonment for leaving her home while husband and I are away for the day)...neither is the leather in my shoes, the steak on my dinner plate, or the fly I just swatted. I do NOT believe that animals should be treated the same as humans, and if that is your basis for being a vet, you will have a difficult time of it.

3. There are problems associated with any career path. I am posting my opinions for discussion because they are real concerns that a person should consider before going into veterinary medicine. I could be all cliche, oh I just love taking care of animals, and science, and cutting things, so I should be a vet, but I'd much rather gain insight into the factors that lead to burnout and depression in so many individuals working within this field so I can decide whether I think it's worth it. Obviously, there are benefits and enjoyable things about the job. They just are not really relevant to my current question.

Yes, there are problems with every career path, and there are people that don't belong in some career paths, and my opinion, worth just what you paid for it, is that this isn't the path for you. Also, you don't stand a chance if you think saying those things get students into vet school. Also, the studies on burnout and such are pretty limited....the field also has some of the highest satisfaction ratings around. Which suggests, to me at least, that people are either very satisfied or very discontent, and I doubt someone who has a disregard for the profession BEFORE THEY EVEN ENTER IT is likely to be pretty discontent.

You come across as disparaging of individuals who don't see animals the same as you do, and it is way too small of a field to treat our associates as if they are the enemy to whom we can cast judgement on for performing procedures that we disagree with and won't do ourselves. I am 100% ok with any vet refusing to do a procedure, I am not ok with anyone judging another for dealing with situations that they can't step up and manage themselves. If you have the ability to provide the solution here and now, great, step up and do it. If you don't, don't judge those who figure out a solution you disagree with. But anytime the cost of an animal becomes significantly higher than their value physically and emotionally, hard decisions are made. When shelters have to provide care that is beyond what the animal can bring in (which is almost always the case when staff has to be paid) the economics aren't viable, especially in a capitalist society.

Electrophile has very clearly expressed a view I agree with on where responsibility lies; with the human population that uses animals as convenient resources that must be cheap and easy.

 

[sumstorm]

Come Christmas, we won't have enough animals to meet the demand. We only do 60 or so adoptions a month in the summer. From Thanksgiving through Valentines Day, we do 10+ a day if we have animals available. Too bad adoption season doesn't coincide with puppy/kitten season.

The sad thing is in southern states, it DOES continue throughout the winter. If you want a kitten in December, I coud get a dozen here and 2 dozen in a single county of Louisiana. Same with puppies. But those cruel shelter folks heads should be on spikes because they euthanize healthy animals when no one wants to adopt them, even if there are 30 animals a day coming in for a single spot in the shelter.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[Electrophile]

Good for you! I do too! And now I am in vet school, and my cats reside with my husband several hours away. He is a diabetic, and lacerations do NOT heal well on him. He tried to trim our cats nails twice and was injured both times; not a scrath that healed in 2 weeks, or even 4 weeks, but ones that he is still struggling with 2 months later. In the mean time, one of my cats, stressed by the change in living arrangements, has done about $4,000 worth of damage with her claws alone, let alone additional litter box issues that have permenantly ruined a hardwood floor), and that isnt' even counting the doctors visits to heal my husbands hands. So, in three months, I would assume the cost of the cat is >$10,000. She still has a home. I am well aware that in most households, she would have been shoved out the door or dropped at the shelter. We haven't even declawed her; instead we pay a vet clinic $20 to deal with her nails every other week....$480 in additional cost a year (more expensive than declawing her at the same clinic), not including the testing for UTI, consultation with a behaviorist, etc. And that every other week visit is INCREDIBLY stressful to her. There are days that it is very hard to deal with, that it causes fights and problems. If she was younger/smaller, I would, for the first time in my life, consider declawing. As for kids, my hope is that training/upbringing handles the issue....but kids don't hit each other to release scent marks....scratching items isn't part of their normal behavioral repertoire. And I expect human brains to develop and grow more sophisticated that I expect my cat's to. A ten year old child than beats up other ten year old's doesn't end up with hands cut off....they end up with hands restrained in cuffs. Either way, my cat isn't my child (if it were, I would be in jail for neglect/abandonment for leaving her home while husband and I are away for the day)...neither is the leather in my shoes, the steak on my dinner plate, or the fly I just swatted. I do NOT believe that animals should be treated the same as humans, and if that is your basis for being a vet, you will have a difficult time of it.

....

Electrophile has very clearly expressed a view I agree with on where responsibility lies; with the human population that uses animals as convenient resources that must be cheap and easy.

Thanks on the last bit. Btw, have you tried Soft Paws on your cat? My cat is fortunately able to not mind having a nail or two trimmed at a time, so I can usually get him trimmed up over the course of a few days, but I've heard really good things about these:

http://www.softpaws.com/

Our therapy dog club requires that a cat be either declawed or use Soft Paws, so they may be appropriate for your husband.

 

[sumstorm]

Thanks on the last bit. Btw, have you tried Soft Paws on your cat? My cat is fortunately able to not mind having a nail or two trimmed at a time, so I can usually get him trimmed up over the course of a few days, but I've heard really good things about these:

http://www.softpaws.com/

Our therapy dog club requires that a cat be either declawed or use Soft Paws, so they may be appropriate for your husband.

Yeah, we tried them a couple of times...she chews them off. She actually chews on her nails regularly. I use them on our two big dogs that like to run from the house to prevent gouges on the wooden floors. Also, when she scratches him, it isn't out of trying to escape...she actually has issues retracting her claws, so just moving around and such cause the scratches. She has some general anxiety issues as well (fur plucking) but she is an amazing cat otherwise. very loving, comes when called, walks on a leash. right now she is curled up over my arms purring like crazy. sadly, she is pretty strongly bonded to me, but the house I am in near vet school doesn't lend itself to a cat that manages to slide through the tinyest crevice and get stuck. at least, not till I can finish remodeling. I guess I am a bad owner for not having that completed...but vet school isn't allowing a lot of time to finish!

 

[RatherBEventing]

I went to a pre-vet conference last year and was told to never ever apply to med school while applying to vet school because it shows lack of commitment!! I dont know if it works vice versa, but at least from the veterinary aspect, this is what I was told.

 

[frozen_canadian]

Med school is of course my top choice

Do not apply to vet school. You will be very unhappy. Believe me. End of thread.

 

[PrimalMU]

Find a clinic that does laser declaws and ask to observe one...they are a MILLION times better.

I'd really like to watch a laster declaw. At my clinic we use the older method for declaws. I HATED that method until I started working at this clinic. We are very progressive in terms of pain management and with appropriate pain meds the older method seems to work quite well. We've done countless declaws this summer and haven't had a single complication. I was quite impressed, and with the use of pain meds my opinion on the method we use changed drastically.

 

[sumstorm]

I'd really like to watch a laster declaw. At my clinic we use the older method for declaws. I HATED that method until I started working at this clinic. We are very progressive in terms of pain management and with appropriate pain meds the older method seems to work quite well. We've done countless declaws this summer and haven't had a single complication. I was quite impressed, and with the use of pain meds my opinion on the method we use changed drastically.

By older method, are you talking disarticulation or guillotine? I want to see a laser as well, but I have little tolerance for guillotines.

My cat is fairly large, 10yo, and heavy footed in general. I also have concerns about post op because she is very litter particular and will not use anything other than a specific brand of clumping litter. At the last clinic I worked at, we used/Rx'd pulp based litter for 2 weeks post op.

 

[PrimalMU]

By older method, are you talking disarticulation or guillotine? I want to see a laser as well, but I have little tolerance for guillotines.

The guillotine method (had to look it up, since I wasn't familiar with the names of the methods).

I can certainly see how the disarticulation method would be preferable, however as I mentioned we haven't had any problems since I started working there. The first clinic I worked at the declaws were obviously VERY painful for the cats. However, at my current clinic the progressive use of pain meds has really changed my opinion regarding declaws.

 

[DVMDream]

I'd really like to watch a laster declaw. At my clinic we use the older method for declaws. I HATED that method until I started working at this clinic. We are very progressive in terms of pain management and with appropriate pain meds the older method seems to work quite well. We've done countless declaws this summer and haven't had a single complication. I was quite impressed, and with the use of pain meds my opinion on the method we use changed drastically.

I absolutely LOVE the laser!! We also follow strict pain management guidelines at the clinic I work at. All surgery patients are required to purchase a $62 pain package...this includes local pain block, pain injection after surgery and a 4 days worth of pain medication at home. (This is for spays, neuters, declaws and small growth removals.) If you get the chance to observe a laser declaw or any laser surgery take the opportunity!

By older method, are you talking disarticulation or guillotine? I want to see a laser as well, but I have little tolerance for guillotines.

My cat is fairly large, 10yo, and heavy footed in general. I also have concerns about post op because she is very litter particular and will not use anything other than a specific brand of clumping litter. At the last clinic I worked at, we used/Rx'd pulp based litter for 2 weeks post op.

I have never seen the guillotine method. If a client opts out of using the laser than the doctors use electrocautery. We have not had problems either way with the declaws but you can tell the cats who had laser have much less bleeding and are much more comfortable the next morning. I was also concerned when we had our cat declawed. She was about 6 years old and she is a good 13 pounds. But, she did amazing! (We used the laser). We also only require our declaws to use shredded newspaper or paper towels for about 4-5 days post-op. Maybe that might work better for your kitty.

 

[Mr Vega]

Go ahead and say that veterinarians are offering adequate care to their patients, but I know better. Veterinary medicine is nothing more than a commercial industry working for selfish people rather than serving animals. Thank you for preventing me from making a huge mistake.

Why are you even here then???? You've already made up your mind. It's obvious that you do not respect the profession from all of your posts. Commercial industry working for selfish people??? Your BACK-UP??? Get the f... outa here. I'm here to tell you, if that is your attitude, DO NOT APPLY. WE DO NOT WANT YOU in our profession if that's how you feel. If I knew what schools you were applying to I would print all of this out and send it to them so they know your true colors. Hopefully, any admissions committee will see right through you.

And, I think I'm not alone here when I say the whole "got kicked out of med school for having a chronic illness" thing is a little shady. There's more to this story.

I would encourage the rest of you to quit feeding this person as she has ZERO respect for anyone within the veterinary community. Nothing that you say will change how she already feels.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[VetMedOrBust]

Deleted.