Applying to more than one program at the same university / do I have a chance?

[Rapunzel]

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Ok, here's my situation. I would like to be a psychologist. That was what I wanted to do 20 years ago when I originally started college, but I gave up on it for a lot of years because I came from a dydfunctional family and realized I was damaged goods and an undergrad psych 101 professor said the field didn't want people like me.

Five years ago, I started to wake up from the fog that I have lived in my whole life, and read some books by psychologists who had their own problems, and decided if they could do it, maybe I could too.

That year, I went back and took undergrad courses for a year (I had given up on graduation after having all the requirements completed), and had a 4.0 GPA for that last year. I applied to three PhD programs. One of them told me I made the alternate list - it was the same school I got my B.A. from.

I started a master's program in counseling, and will graduate from that this November. At least it was something.

Two years ago I applied to two more PhD programs. One of them interviewed me, but obviously didn't make an offer.

It's time to think about applying again. I'm limited because I do have a family and can't really abandon them, and my husband has a career and can't abandon it to go follow me to school. There are three universities within range where I could conceivably manage being there. I'm not sure it would be worth it for me to apply to any that are farther away than those three. A couple of them have both a clinical psych phd and a counseling psych phd. While I would prefer clinical, I might have a better chance at counseling, considering my current background.

If I apply to more than one program at the same school, maybe I could increase my odds of getting accepted somewhere. But would each of those programs, even being in separate departments, have access to my application to the other program at the same school? And, if they did, would it look like I am wishy washy or in any other way reflect poorly on me?

Also, between my previous attempts, I did apply to these programs before. As I mentioned, one had me on an alternate list and one interviewed, but of course I didn't get in. What are my chances of getting accepted where I have been rejected before?

And, will they remember my previous applications, or have access to them? There was one, that first year, where I realized that at least one of my recommendations was probably really bad. I didn't have any current academic or professional references, so, in a scrape, I used my therapist as a reference. I had not seen the form that he had to fill out until later, when I noticed there was a question asking the referrer to "rate the applicant's emotional stability." I had been suicidal the previous month, and manic during that year too. That could not have gone well for me. Do I want to even try applying there again, even five years later?

What would you give for my general chances? I have GRE scores of verbal:640; quantitative: 620; psychology: 700; undergraduate GPA 3.64; master's program GPA 3.96. Very little research experience. Lots of clinical experience, having almost completed a year of internship in counseling (will be closer to two years by next Fall), and also working in relevant paraprofessional and professional jobs for four years.

Do I have a chance? And thanks for reading all the way through this, if you did. 🙂

 

[erg923]

No resesrch experience and you want a Ph.D? To be honest, that's gonna hurt you, if not make it a flat out impossibility. And therapist as a reference? Grad school is 5-6 years of 50-60 hour weeks and heavy stress. I would start here and make sure you are at a point were you can handle this, emotionally and psychologically. Your struggles aren't necessarily a contraindication for entering the field, but proceed with caution.

When you get to this stage, you need to be way ahead of the "I want to be a psychologist" stage. Why do you want to be a psychologists? and what are your career goals? What are your resesrch interests? If you don't know or aren't wild about research, you will want to rethink this. Moreover, and probably most important for your specific question: Ph.D programs (in psych) are all about "fit." Fit with the atmosphere, but most of all, fit with the resesrch of the professor and the training goals (and career goals), and training model of the program. I am not sure I understand 4 programs at the same university? I can understand 2, counseling and clinical, as we have many overlaps with counseling psych and counseling Ph.D. programs can be just as research geared as clincial Ph.Ds. School psych gives you something different, with a very different focus. What other 2 Ph.D.programs would you be applying to? Other programs will give you vastly different training, skills sets, foci, and prepare you for different things than a Ph.D in clincial or counseling psych. Clinical programs want people who match their model and they want the people who are focused and know what they want.

 

[Rapunzel]

I was talking about two programs each at a couple of schools - between three different schools. A total of five programs. School psych is not what I want. Someone has suggested considering other doctoral programs too, like DSW, or phd programs in family and human development or sociology, but I don't see those as being useful to me.

I have interests in research. I am interested in addictive behaviors, coping, trauma, developmental disorders, personality disorders, emotions, language acquisition (specifically multiple languages), multi-culturalism, diversity. And I want to have research experience. I have some on paper - took 6 credits in that last undergraduate year as an undergraduate research assistant, but unfortunately that professor turned out to be flaky and was out of the country on a sabbatacal that year and I was a distance student anyway, and I felt that I didn't do enough. I still got an A and that professor has written letters for me that say basically I can walk on water, but I found out too late she has a reputation for writing letters like that for everybody. I never was convinced that she even really remembered me like she said she did from when I was a TA for her years ago.

I want to be a psychologist because I want to save the world, even though I know that's beyond a realistic goal. I want to find people who are victims of a particular variety of emotional abuse/neglect, who have been taught that they will never have a chance in life because somehow that seems to satisfy some need in the parent(s), and I want to help them to discover the potential that they always believed they had, but have forgotten. I want to do research to discover the ways that this situation manifests (yes, I'm considering my own family of origin as a starting place, but have run across others too - I had thought we were the only ones). I want to write a book that people from families like this will recognize themselves in, and will see that there is a way out. That they can discover themselves and start living, and break free of that fog.

I want to be a clinician, but I also want to write, and I want to teach. My degree that I am getting now is too limited. I don't consider the training to be adequate, and I want to do more. I want to learn more. I don't want to be this limited. I am tired of limits. There have been too many of them in my life, for far too long.

 

[psychmama]

I know you've said you're geographically limited, but have you considered a PsyD? You seem like perhaps a better fit with that than for a PhD. Of course, some PhD programs are more clinically oriented than others (both in clinical and counseling psychology).

I have another thought. Have you considered Fielding Institute? It's the only APA accredited doctoral program that is a distance-learning format. From what I know, you will need to travel once in a while for seminars and the like, but you can do the bulk of your work online or in regional "cluster groups" sponsored by the school.

I think I understand something of your situation. I'm in my late 40's and finishing my doctoral degree. I too was limited geographically because of family, yet wanted more than a master's degree. I was lucky to get admitted to a good program about an hour from my home. It's been tough coping with the commute, but worth it. Still, juggling a full-time doctoral program with three children has been tough (even with my very supportive husband who works from home).


One word of advice from someone who's been there. Wanting to be a psychologist in order to help people is great, but this is a field where self-knowledge is critical. It's so easy to get overly invested emotionally with clients, especially where one has a history which parallels one's ciients. I've had to discover the hard way that the very aspects of my personality that make me a caring clinician can get in the way of being effective, not to mention the emotional wear and tear on me. I'm sure you already know a lot of this from your counseling program. I only mention it because I pick something up in the tone of your posting that made me think it might be relevant for you. (Take it for what it's worth, and ignore it if it doesn't seem to fit.)

I hope you're able to find what you're looking for. Best of luck. 😉

 

[deleted176373]

I want to be a psychologist because I want to save the world...

I wonder how well that would be received in the interview or personal statement.

Seriously, you're between a rock and a hard place. Your stats are decent but you may have to move in order to find a program that's a good match and you WILL spend 5-6 years to get a Ph.D., I would suggest other paths (like a Psy.D.) but with your situation the financial aspects may not make sense.

Mark

 

[Rapunzel]

I really do appreciate the honest replies, although they do hurt. Still, it wouldn't help me if everyone just said, "sure, they will accept you with no research experience."

Part of the reason we moved to where we are now, besides for my husband's career, was because it put those three schools within range. Two of them are still about an hour away (opposite directions) - in winter I would have to plan on staying there for weeks at a time because the roads will be too bad to risk a daily commute. The third school is about half an hour away, which is closer than where I currently work, so that isn't too bad. Although I am so sick of the daily commute right now, I can put up with it for several more years. I already have more than $40,000 student loan debt from my master's program, and really don't need another $100,000 from Fielding (looked into that five years ago). There are no PsyD programs remotely near here. Although we have PsyD people who went to school in California, the degree has just not caught on here yet. Some of you now can probably guess where I live within about 5 miles now if you know this area at all.

I wish that I had more options. Maybe it does come down to choosing between my family or my education/career. The reason I am in the master's program I am in was because at least it was an option, where there were not any others when I started. I figured at worst I would have debt and be a year or two behind starting the program that I really want, and at best, at least I would be able to practice as a therapist. I have looked for opportunities to get research experience, and generally was told that those opportunities were reserved for current students. My master's program would not allow me to do a thesis or other research. I begged. It simply is not part of the program.

Psychmama, what you are picking up about me is on target. I am acutely aware of my emotional vulnerabilities. So far, I am working with clients who are similar to myself in a lot of ways, and I think that my ability to connect with them is enhanced, and also forces me to take a good look at myself at make sure that I stay at least a step ahead of them in my own healing.

So, maybe the question is "can I deal with the guilt of leaving my family to go away to school somewhere?" I don't know if I would even come back.

 

[Doctor Love]

Yes, perhaps something like Fielding or another online school (which I am sure will probably get the online school debate rekindled) would probably be your best bet.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to save the whole world, letting people know about it in that way probably wasn't the best. However, we are all aspiring to help others, if not, then why get into the field of psychology? To make money? Nah.

It worries me when people patronize others because they want to help other people. Sure, it may of came out a cheesy way, but heck, isn't that what a Doctor (of any kind) is for?

 

[Rapunzel]

Well, I thought that it was clear I knew that I knew better than saying it that way anyplace where it counts (about wanting to save the world). I really just meant to say that I have bigger ambitions than just being a master's level counselor. I didn't mean to be cheesy.

I'm really not out for money or fame and glory, but what I really want is to know that I make a difference. And, as I wrote before, I do have more specific ideas about how I hope to do that.

So, what about applying to more than one program at the same school? Is that a bad idea?

 

[JockNerd]

Well, I thought that it was clear I knew that I knew better than saying it that way anyplace where it counts (about wanting to save the world). I really just meant to say that I have bigger ambitions than just being a master's level counselor. I didn't mean to be cheesy.

I'm really not out for money or fame and glory, but what I really want is to know that I make a difference. And, as I wrote before, I do have more specific ideas about how I hope to do that.

So, what about applying to more than one program at the same school? Is that a bad idea?

Ok, on topic, though posts about research are important if you're applying to PhD programs.

I applied to clinical and counseling psych at Utah my app year. Things went well. Clinical and counseling departments are most often in separate areas (counseling is usually in Ed and clinical is usually in psych, though there are exceptions, such as UF and Iowa, where counseling is in Psych and clinical is elsewhere). they aren't going to cross-reference hundreds of applications. If something magically happens and they do know, no one will care. I'd even ask them to interview you the same weekend to save on airfare.

Why would you think you have a "better chance at counseling, considering [your] background"?

 

[psychmama]

Rapunzel -- I hope you can make it work out. Perhaps you can do Fielding or another program while working, in order to reduce the financial hit? I don't know how old you are, or the ages of your kids (if any). It might be that a few years from now you'll be in a better position to devote the time to commuting long-distance while pursuing a doctorate. At any rate, you sound very committed to your goals, and also aware of the many challenges ahead of you. Good luck!

 

[JockNerd]

Rapunzel -- I hope you can make it work out. Perhaps you can do Fielding or another program while working, in order to reduce the financial hit? I don't know how old you are, or the ages of your kids (if any). It might be that a few years from now you'll be in a better position to devote the time to commuting long-distance while pursuing a doctorate. At any rate, you sound very committed to your goals, and also aware of the many challenges ahead of you. Good luck!

There are a half dozen threads on online schools. But suffice to say, it isn't true that paying tens of thousands for a questionable degree is a better financial decision than attending a program that pays you to go there. And, just maybe, advanced degrees aren't for everyone.

 

[psychmama]

I realize that, JockNerd. But this is an imperfect world, and sometimes folks have to make due with less than optimal choices. Maybe doctoral degrees are not for everyone, but is that really your decision to make for someone else? And at least regarding Fielding, I'd take issue with your characterization of that as a "questionable degree." I personally know a psychologist who graduated from there, and she's highly respected and well-employed. At the end of the day, it's a personal decision.

 

[Rapunzel]

Thank you. I appreciate the support. There are a lot of things in my life that I would do over if I had the ability. I knew 20 years ago that I needed a professional career to be satisfied with life, but back then I believed too many people who said that I couldn't do it, or that the only thing that mattered was marriage and kids. I wish that I had waited on the marriage and kids until I knew who I was. I wish that I had finished my education and established a career first. I wish that I had not listened to that professor who said that people with problems weren't wanted in psychology. I wish that I had gotten research experience.

I started out as a psych major at 18 years old, gave that up, and went for communicative disorders instead. I ended up with a double major by the time I was through because I couldn't leave psychology alone. I kept taking psych classes just because I wanted to and was interested, when that was not my major. I was in Psi Chi just because it was interesting, not because I was trying to network or get ahead in psychology. In Com D, I was in the departmental honors program, and my last year I got married, didn't adjust too well, got carpal tunnel syndrome and couldn't hold a pen or pencil, and my work suffered a little. My grades were declining although still above 3.5 and nobody thought I would ever do worse than 3.5. But that last year I wasn't stellar, and Com D asked me to withdraw from their honors program, and I didn't quite finish my senior thesis because there was no point in it, and they didn't accept me in the Speech Pathology master's program and I gave up on everything. That had a lot to do with all those messages that I was doomed to failure. I lived in some kind of fog of depression and dissociation for quite a few years, and I don't even remember much from those years. I shut down and I barely survived and that was all. Eventually it got so intolerable that I wanted to be dead. In a way, I had been for years. But I guess I realized that what I really wanted was to have my life back. That was about five and a half years ago, and I woke up from that deadly fog and have been working to reclaim my life since then. I have come a long way in five years.

Now here I am, 39 years old (which does not seem right because I have not done 39 years worth of living - I don't generally keep track of or admit to my age - I think I should still be 29). I have three kids, ages 11, 14, and 16. I have been absent enough from their lives since even when I stayed at home with them, I wasn't really there. But I want to pick up my life where I left off, and it feels like time to grow up and move on.

I think that I would have a better chance at the counseling programs rather than clinical because the two I am looking at indicate that they accept master's level students, and the counseling training that I have already obtained would fit with their philosophies and orientation. The counseling programs (those two) seem a bit less research-oriented than the other programs.

I justified choosing an over-priced private school that has been partially online for my master's degree because I could work. Maybe that has worked out okay, but I did end up with a huge amount of debt. And while I do well in distance or internet-based or independent learning situations, I would rather have face to face experience if possible. Fielding looks like it could be a good program, and I probably would have started it five years ago if they would have accepted me without a master's degree. It might be an option, but I'm not convinced that it's my best option. One thing that I feel has been missing in all of my education thus far is a mentor. I long for a long-standing professional relationship with someone consistent who will share their work and allow me to assist and learn from them, and also take an interest in my work and my professional development. I also want to have a cohort of other students and learn with them and have regular contact with them. My sense of Fielding is that it wouldn't be like that. It is so big and so spread out.

Optimally, I would have done some things differently than I did. But I can't go back now. Where I am now is what I have to work from.

Any suggestions for getting research experience now, or is it too late for that? Especially when I have no time left over after job and internship requirements (multiple locations). How about ways to play up or enhance the experience that I do have?

 

[erg923]

There is NO shame in wanting more in your life/professional career. HOWEVER, be cautious about making a new life filling and/or filling a void with a new career. Or "saving the world" for that matter. This is not the career for that. The stress is too much and the debt too high if you choose the wrong school. Pursuing dreams is one thing, but being pragmatic about pursuing your dreams is another. I hate to sound analytic here, but do not supplement, rationalize, or "fill a void" with any career, especially not this one. A career where all your old issues have the potential to bleed through on to your clients, and where a level-headed, rationale, and scientific mind pave the way to success. Your old professor was indeed wrong, but, if you want to be a success in this field, you have to be intellectual stimulated by the material and the potentials it holds. Your past has to be "in check." I should help inspire you, and help you to identify, but should not be a primary motivation.

 

[Rapunzel]

I see your point there, but this field was always where I wanted to be, and what I wanted to do. There probably was always some motivation from seeing what my family was like, and wanting to be able to understand myself and my family, and from observing a psychologist that my family went to for one of my siblings when I was younger, and also wanting to change a system that didn't help me soon enough and try to help more of the people like me who are out there falling through the cracks. This was always what I wanted to do. It was what I gave up when I stopped living my life.

Like it or not, I am in this field. I'm well on the way to a career as a therapist. I would rather be as well-prepared for that career as possible. And I agree that dealing with my own issues is a priority, and I have been addressing that in my own therapy, which I believe is the single most valuable training experience I have had.

 

[BorntoRun]

Back to the OP's original question, I think it could hurt you to apply to more than one program in the same school, although I imagine the extent to which it would hurt you would vary by school. For example, a school with a very research-heavy Ph.D. program and a very practice-oriented Psy.D. program would probably frown on you applying to both, because it would suggest that you're more invested in going to any grad school in 'helping' psychology than in pursuing specific research questions or specific areas of interest. I suspect that both programs in the school would end up aware that you were applying to the other, because many applications are processed through a single 'graduate school' of one sort or another before they're shipped off to individual programs. This might be a good question for DrClinPsyAdvice over on the other thread, or you could search the forum - I think opinions (similar to this and differing) have been provided before on this topic.

 

[biogirl215]

No resesrch experience and you want a Ph.D? To be honest, that's gonna hurt you, if not make it a flat out impossibility

Mostly but not entirely true. A grad student in lab I work in (at a PhD-granting, fully-funded, university-based, 100% match rate program) said he came in with no research experience (did have some clinical). Of course, this is a *huge* exception to the rule, but it is possible. Said student, though, has said that his lack of research experience has caused him to take much, much longer with his thesis than expected, however, and that he would recommend coming in with research experience.... But he did get in and has done well.

 

[Rapunzel]

Thanks! It is encouraging to know that it has worked out for someone.

And Born to Run, thanks for answering my question too. I did go and ask in the other thread too. And now I'm looking for professors with research interests with which mine would match up.

 

[biogirl215]

^
Where did you get your masters? (Feel free to PM me).