Applying to PA but having second thoughts..

[allopathicartist]

Hello all,

I wanted to pick some more experienced brains to hopefully assist me in my choice to apply to med school. I'm currently waiting to hear back from PA schools but the more I work bedside doctors and PA's (I'm an ER scribe) the more I feel like I should just take the leap and go to med school for fear of not feeling fulfilled. I won't make a huge story about it but I'm doubting if I can be satisfied with the scope of practice of a PA, particularly with the specialties I'm interested in (surgery, interventional cards, OB..).

I'm currently two years out from my undergrad and have been doing a sort of "DIY post-bacc". I have tons of other volunteer experience, clinical experience, etc. My GPA is a 3.2 currently but my last 60 credits I have ~3.7. My big question is, if I did decided to peruse MD how would you go about improving my grades? Most of the basic prereq's I took during my early undergrad years when I was less than mature and motivated. BUT.. a lot of my other sciences are great since I've taken them for PA prereqs including immunology, genetics, cell bio, micro, anatomy, physio, biochem, etc. (mostly A's with one or two B's).

Bio I&II - B/B
G-CHEM - A/C
O-CHEM - B (I'd need the second half)
PHYS - C/B

What would be your course of action? Has anyone else struggled with a similar decision?

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[OneTwoThreeFour]

You've taken most of the classes fairly recently. I'd argue you just need to fill in the gaps and take the MCAT. Nothing particularly dramatic should need to happen. You're young and have the benefit of time-don't settle for something that isn't what you want to do.

 

[863168]

@allopathicartist Are you asking this question because you're not sure about getting into PA schools? I know that average matriculant GPA for most accredited schools ranges from a 3.6 to a 4.0. PAs are also very prevalent and dominant in surgical fields. Therefore being consistent with your stated area of interest.

 

[MedicineN'Jazz]

Man, go to PA school and make that money. At the end of the day, you’re going to making a 100k salary. In this day in age, the only difference btw a PA and an MD is lower debt and lower respect. There’s a trade off, but only you can decide whether or not choosing a more expensive career path is worth it

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Man, go to PA school and make that money. At the end of the day, you’re going to making a 100k salary. In this day in age, the only difference btw a PA and an MD is lower debt and lower respect. There’s a trade off, but only you can decide whether or not choosing a more expensive career path is worth it

PA is a great career. Good salary, low liability, good hours, you get to be involved in healthcare delivery, practice at the top of your scope. It is not the same as an MD.

 

[Shunsui]

I would definitely make a written out pros/cons list catered towards your priorities in life for both careers and also visualize where you would like to see yourself in 5, 10, 15 years from now. Good luck!

 

[Goro]

Hello all,

I wanted to pick some more experienced brains to hopefully assist me in my choice to apply to med school. I'm currently waiting to hear back from PA schools but the more I work bedside doctors and PA's (I'm an ER scribe) the more I feel like I should just take the leap and go to med school for fear of not feeling fulfilled. I won't make a huge story about it but I'm doubting if I can be satisfied with the scope of practice of a PA, particularly with the specialties I'm interested in (surgery, interventional cards, OB..).

I'm currently two years out from my undergrad and have been doing a sort of "DIY post-bacc". I have tons of other volunteer experience, clinical experience, etc. My GPA is a 3.2 currently but my last 60 credits I have ~3.7. My big question is, if I did decided to peruse MD how would you go about improving my grades? Most of the basic prereq's I took during my early undergrad years when I was less than mature and motivated. BUT.. a lot of my other sciences are great since I've taken them for PA prereqs including immunology, genetics, cell bio, micro, anatomy, physio, biochem, etc. (mostly A's with one or two B's).

Bio I&II - B/B
G-CHEM - A/C
O-CHEM - B (I'd need the second half)
PHYS - C/B

What would be your course of action? Has anyone else struggled with a similar decision?

Read this:
Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention

 

[allopathicartist]

Thanks to everyone that replied! I guess I should clarify a little more on my post. I'm not really asking which you'd rather do, I get wildly differing answers every time I've asked anyone PA vs MD. I'm not concerned about the hours, money, etc. I'm considering going MD because of the scope of practice differences. I don't want to end up going to PA school then regretting it later. I know PA's do have a large scope but for example, if I went into surgery I feel like I'm going to end up spending my days daydreaming about being the lead surgeon while I'm holding a retractor or am closing for the 1000th time. But if anyone is a PA/knows a PA that proves differently I would love to know! I'm just using this time to get as realistic as expectations as possible before I make the 100% commitment to either

I'm more wondering how far off do you think my background is from applying to medical school? Do I need significantly getting grades for my classes, better experiences, etc? Or do I need to maybe make a tweak here or there?

 

[Shunsui]

Thanks to everyone that replied! I guess I should clarify a little more on my post. I'm not really asking which you'd rather do, I get wildly differing answers every time I've asked anyone PA vs MD. I'm not concerned about the hours, money, etc. I'm considering going MD because of the scope of practice differences. I don't want to end up going to PA school then regretting it later. I know PA's do have a large scope but for example, if I went into surgery I feel like I'm going to end up spending my days daydreaming about being the lead surgeon while I'm holding a retractor or am closing for the 1000th time. But if anyone is a PA/knows a PA that proves differently I would love to know! I'm just using this time to get as realistic as expectations as possible before I make the 100% commitment to either

I'm more wondering how far off do you think my background is from applying to medical school? Do I need significantly getting grades for my classes, better experiences, etc? Or do I need to maybe make a tweak here or there?

Grades are most likely fine if you've maintained 3.7 for last 60 credits (strong upward trend). ECs weren't specific (definitely need MD and DO shadowing) but clinical and nonclinical are probably fine since you need crazy hours for PA. MCAT is a dealbreaker and last part of the puzzle so definitely focus on that if you haven't taken it yet. Also, what kind of LORs do you have (might need one from DO if applying osteopathic)? Are you dead set on MD only or are you considering DO as well? I'm only a pre-med but I'm trying lol

 

[idontsave]

Thanks to everyone that replied! I guess I should clarify a little more on my post. I'm not really asking which you'd rather do, I get wildly differing answers every time I've asked anyone PA vs MD. I'm not concerned about the hours, money, etc. I'm considering going MD because of the scope of practice differences. I don't want to end up going to PA school then regretting it later. I know PA's do have a large scope but for example, if I went into surgery I feel like I'm going to end up spending my days daydreaming about being the lead surgeon while I'm holding a retractor or am closing for the 1000th time. But if anyone is a PA/knows a PA that proves differently I would love to know! I'm just using this time to get as realistic as expectations as possible before I make the 100% commitment to either

I'm more wondering how far off do you think my background is from applying to medical school? Do I need significantly getting grades for my classes, better experiences, etc? Or do I need to maybe make a tweak here or there?

Can't really speak on your chances of acceptance/rejection to schools considering that I'm not at that point yet myself, but I can give you my insight on your uncertainty about which way to go.

Before I ultimately decided on pursuing medicine, I found myself in the same debate and constantly feeling pulled in one direction or another. I decided to shoot for CRNA because it sounded more practical and the money sounded nice, so 4 classes shy of completing my med school pre-reqs, I transferred into a BSN program with a nearly full-ride scholarship. Here I am, with less than one year left, doing well in my classes, graduating without any debt, and still completely unhappy. This all started with the same uncertainty about whether the role I chose/my initial desire to become a physician would bother me and has built up more and more over time. It does happen.

What I'm trying to say is that while PA is a great career with solid pay and the ability to practice at the top of your license, if you're having these doubts now prior to even matriculating, there's a big chance that you will end up exactly as you described; holding retractors for a surgeon thinking "what if?".

If this is the case, it may be worthwhile to tough it out and take any extra steps necessary to be competitive for med school. Of course this is just my perspective based on my own experience in undergrad. I'm sure many can argue that PA is a better career path in one way or another. Just make sure that whichever of the two you choose it's not one that you will regret later, because I can tell you first-hand that the feeling sucks.

 

[857770]

Can't really speak on your chances of acceptance/rejection to schools considering that I'm not at that point yet myself, but I can give you my insight on your uncertainty about which way to go.

Before I ultimately decided on pursuing medicine, I found myself in the same debate and constantly feeling pulled in one direction or another. I decided to shoot for CRNA because it sounded more practical and the money sounded nice, so 4 classes shy of completing my med school pre-reqs, I transferred into a BSN program with a nearly full-ride scholarship. Here I am, with less than one year left, ranked #1 in my cohort, graduating without any debt, and still completely unhappy. This all started with the same uncertainty about whether the role I chose/my initial desire to become a physician would bother me and has built up more and more over time. It does happen.

What I'm trying to say is that while PA is a great career with solid pay and the ability to practice at the top of your license, if you're having these doubts now prior to even matriculating, there's a big chance that you will end up exactly as you described; holding retractors for a surgeon thinking "what if?".

If this is the case, it may be worthwhile to tough it out and take any extra steps necessary to be competitive for med school. Of course this is just my perspective based on my own experience in undergrad. I'm sure many can argue that PA is a better career path in one way or another. Just make sure that whichever of the two you choose it's not one that you will regret later, because I can tell you first-hand that the feeling sucks.

This example obviously only pertains to surgery. Even then many surgeons have their PA-Cs do much more than just holding a retractor.

In other specialties, such as family practice, PA-Cs do get a lot of autonomy. Some supervising physicians do not even see their PA's patients after awhile; they trust them enough. So, it may just be a chart review that comes every six months, depending on the state's legal requirement.

 

[idontsave]

This example obviously only pertains to surgery. Even then many surgeons have their PA-Cs do much more than just holding a retractor.

In other specialties, such as family practice, PA-Cs do get a lot of autonomy. Some supervising physicians do not even see their PA's patients after awhile; they trust them enough. So, it may just be a chart review that comes every six months, depending on the state's legal requirement.

Absolutely. CT surgery has PAs opening, closing, and basically doing endoscopic vein harvesting for CABG procedures entirely autonomously, amongst other first assist duties. In terms of something along the lines of a six month chart review, a position like that is highly unlikely unless OP lives in a rural area where they would function as one of the only available healthcare providers. One must keep in mind unlike as is the case for NP, PAs are still mandated to have a supervising physician available to some extent. Regardless, I do think that the education model and properly regulated rotations make it the superior APP route.

Sure, PAs do have plenty of autonomy in urgent care, emergency, family practice, etc. I've even heard stories about PAs performing IR procedures nearly independently. The bottom line is there will always be an Attending to report to, and if the OP is completely fine with this, then I don't see a problem with going that route.

 

[857770]

There were times when I saw a PA-C at a family practice office and have never seen the supervising physician. And the practice is not in a rural area. I don't know how often their charts are reviewed. But, when I see a PA, I never get to see the physician. Many clinics are set up like this. I couldn't find a doctor that did not have a midlevel provider.

 

[idontsave]

There were times when I saw a PA-C at a family practice office and have never seen the supervising physician. And the practice is not in a rural area. I don't know how often their charts are reviewed. But, when I see a PA, I never get to see the physician. Many clinics are set up like this. I couldn't find a doctor that did not have a midlevel provider.

This is from a patient perspective. They may function autonomously in terms of daily operations but they must have a supervising physician available, whether by phone or in-house, and to sign off on their charts. In an inpatient setting in a large hospital, this may be reflected by the PA doing the initial consult and then giving report to the SP to determine the plan of care or by collaboratively seeing the patient. Still a high level of autonomy, but the SP ultimately has the final word. Again, if the OP is fine with this role there shouldn't be an issue.

It seems like we are more or less on the same page here.

 

[workaholic181]

PA does not equal MD/DO. Period. I know way too many disillusioned PAs who thought that route was just med school minus a few years and debt and really regret it. Yes PAs in certain fields have more autonomy than others but the knowledge gap between them and physicians is massive. If OP is already having misgivings and Doesnt know what field they may ultimately like they should pursue medicine.

You're not too far from an acceptance OP.. Honestly you could finish your pre reqs this year, take the Mcat in early summer and apply for next cycle. I was in a similar spot and now am at an MD school so I can tell you from experience that it will be hard but that you can absolutely finish your remaining classes and take the mcat in the next year.

Depending on your mcat score and state residency you should consider DO schools too. Start thinking about shadowing hours and who will get you Lors. Again, i was literally where you are now not long ago and had a successful app ready by the next cycle. I'd say you're at most two years away from applying.

Don't listen to the people who are saying PA is MD/DO minus some money and respect. That's ridiculous. The training is different for a reason. I have worked with great PAs who were valuable parts of the team but they'd be the first to tell you it's not the same thing, and PA students going in thinking it is the same often regret their decision. Good luck. Pm me if you want any advice.

 

[857770]

This is from a patient perspective. They may function autonomously in terms of daily operations but they must have a supervising physician available, whether by phone or in-house, and to sign off on their charts. In an inpatient setting in a large hospital, this may be reflected by the PA doing the initial consult and then giving report to the SP to determine the plan of care or by collaboratively seeing the patient. Still a high level of autonomy, but the SP ultimately has the final word. Again, if the OP is fine with this role there shouldn't be an issue.

It seems like we are more or less on the same page here.

This may be from a patients perspective, but I am also a medical student with healthcare experience.

 

[857770]

Noone hands down is saying that PA is eq

PA does not equal MD/DO. Period. I know way too many disillusioned PAs who thought that route was just med school minus a few years and debt and really regret it. Yes PAs in certain fields have more autonomy than others but the knowledge gap between them and physicians is massive. If OP is already having misgivings and Doesnt know what field they may ultimately like they should pursue medicine.

You're not too far from an acceptance OP.. Honestly you could finish your pre reqs this year, take the Mcat in early summer and apply for next cycle. I was in a similar spot and now am at an MD school so I can tell you from experience that it will be hard but that you can absolutely finish your remaining classes and take the mcat in the next year.

Depending on your mcat score and state residency you should consider DO schools too. Start thinking about shadowing hours and who will get you Lors. Again, i was literally where you are now not long ago and had a successful app ready by the next cycle. I'd say you're at most two years away from applying.

Don't listen to the people who are saying PA is MD/DO minus some money and respect. That's ridiculous. The training is different for a reason. I have worked with great PAs who were valuable parts of the team but they'd be the first to tell you it's not the same thing, and PA students going in thinking it is the same often regret their decision. Good luck. Pm me if you want any advice.

GOOD LORD! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT PA IS EQUAL TO MD/DO. In fact, I ended up seeing a PA after not being able to find a clinic with only doctors. But, at the same time, they are valuable with the type of training they have.

 

[allantois]

Well if you are already having doubts then going the medical school route may just be the thing.

There is no perfect career and each one has its pros and cons.

I can speak from the PA student perspective - when I was going in I was concerned that I am not going to learn enough medicine and would only learn to follow protocols. That has not at all been my experience as we learn a great deal of pathophysiology and things move really quick. You can also always supplement your studies, although I have not had the time to do that on top of what is already being taught to us.

Personally, I am only in my first year but it is already feeling a bit exhausting from all of the studying and most of the medical material is only somewhat moderately interesting to me. I cannot imagine doing this for another 5+ years. Luckily, I want to practice in primary care where PAs are more or less autonomous and if that ever gets boring you can always work in a specialty in a more supportive role, whereas you usually get locked in your specialty as a physician.

 

[workaholic181]

Noone hands down is saying that PA is eq


GOOD LORD! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT PA IS EQUAL TO MD/DO. In fact, I ended up seeing a PA after not being able to find a clinic with only doctors. But, at the same time, they are valuable with the type of training they have.

Did you even read what I said? Maybe I should have used all caps. I said PAs are VALUABLE members of the Healthcare team. OP asked for advice about their position and their interests. Clearly what they've said lends itself to medicine more than PA. Your "advice" about how you saw a PA that one time and couldn't find a physician practice without one was completely pointless so I figured I'd actually answer OPs question with advice about where they're at time line wise.

 

[workaholic181]

Well if you are already having doubts then going the medical school route may just be the thing.

There is no perfect career and each one has its pros and cons.

I can speak from the PA student perspective - when I was going in I was concerned that I am not going to learn enough medicine and would only learn to follow protocols. That has not at all been my experience as we learn a great deal of pathophysiology and things move really quick. You can also always supplement your studies, although I have not had the time to do that on top of what is already being taught to us.

Personally, I am only in my first year but it is already feeling a bit exhausting from all of the studying and most of the medical material is only somewhat moderately interesting to me. I cannot imagine doing this for another 5+ years. Luckily, I want to practice in primary care where PAs are more or less autonomous and if that ever gets boring you can always work in a specialty in a more supportive role, whereas you usually get locked in your specialty as a physician.

Physicians do not get locked into specialties. They can and do change if they want to. No one's saying PA school is easy or isn't hard. It's not nearly as detailed as a medical education and the scope of practice, even in PC, is more limited. If you're in something other than PC it's much more limited.

 

[NITRAS]

Just an aside, PA and NP independence is highly state dependent (and subject to change).

We utilized PAs for cross cover, admissions, and co-team management (thought they are all seen by MD every day). Our experienced ones are very good, but the brand new ones need their hands held for a bit.

 

[LukaDoncicLuk]

I think you should take the MCAT and see where you stand after that. The MCAT was a huge mental barrier for me for some reason but it turned out to be my strongest selling point for an otherwise below average application. I was planning on going the PA route after graduating until I realized that I never wanted to live my life wondering "what if". I would encourage you to finish your prereqs and go all out for the MCAT.

 

[857770]

Just an aside, PA and NP independence is highly state dependent (and subject to change).

We utilized PAs for cross cover, admissions, and co-team management (thought they are all seen by MD every day). Our experienced ones are very good, but the brand new ones need their hands held for a bit.

PAs are not independent in any of the states. They all have a supervising physician.

 

[allopathicartist]

Thanks again everyone!
All of you that have been encouraging and helpful by looking at my background, extra thank you! That makes me feel more confident that I'm not so far away from applying to medical school. But yes, I am looking at DO programs too. I love the DO message but I'm hesitant since I've heard from some doctors that its harder to get into some specialties with a DO vs MD. Anyone know anything about this?
In terms of patient/healthcare hours by next year I'll have around a combined 7000 hours between being a ER tech, ER scribe, PT intern, and cardiac clinic intern. In terms of LOR's I obviously couldn't say who I'd ask next year if I apply but for PA school this year I had the Dean of Admissions for the VT med school (she's an MD in the ER I've been at for the past three years), the dean of the STEM program at the CC I've been taking classes at, and a trauma PA that I've shadowed multiple times.

One thing I am noticing is that most of the pro PA posts have been about autonomy and only really mentioning family practice. Y'all, I so do appreciate the enthusiasm but I work in the ER now, I would off myself before I worked in a family practice. I want the stressful and critical and absolute craziness. For the few that did mention surgical and cards, thank you! I think I'd like to do a PA vs MD shadow in those specialties if I could to compare!

 

[workaholic181]

Thanks again everyone!
All of you that have been encouraging and helpful by looking at my background, extra thank you! That makes me feel more confident that I'm not so far away from applying to medical school. But yes, I am looking at DO programs too. I love the DO message but I'm hesitant since I've heard from some doctors that its harder to get into some specialties with a DO vs MD. Anyone know anything about this?
In terms of patient/healthcare hours by next year I'll have around a combined 7000 hours between being a ER tech, ER scribe, PT intern, and cardiac clinic intern. In terms of LOR's I obviously couldn't say who I'd ask next year if I apply but for PA school this year I had the Dean of Admissions for the VT med school (she's an MD in the ER I've been at for the past three years), the dean of the STEM program at the CC I've been taking classes at, and a trauma PA that I've shadowed multiple times.

One thing I am noticing is that most of the pro PA posts have been about autonomy and only really mentioning family practice. Y'all, I so do appreciate the enthusiasm but I work in the ER now, I would off myself before I worked in a family practice. I want the stressful and critical and absolute craziness. For the few that did mention surgical and cards, thank you! I think I'd like to do a PA vs MD shadow in those specialties if I could to compare!

It is generally more difficult for a DO to specialize or get into a surgical field. There are DOs in all specialties but its an uphill climb. MD makes things easier in all fields.