Applying to specialty after practicing general dentistry

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korndoctor

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If a dentist has been practicing general dentistry for 5 years and decided then he/she wanted to do a specialty, how does that work?

For the app process, they obviously can't go back to dental school and do research or getting recommendations might be a tough task and board scores might be outdated after 5 years, so what do dentists who've been practicing for some time apply to specialties?

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I am a member of class of 1996. 😱 Upon recent liquidation of my private practice, I decided to pursue my dream of specializing in pedo. As you can imagine, most of my instructors have since long retired. The letters of recommendation are written by my CE course instructors, whom I have known more than 7 years. I just state that fact on my CV and pray sympathetic ears will take that into account..:xf:
 
I know what you mean. It's hard to get those letters.
 
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Is it suggested to get the letters while in dental school and have them hold on to it until the day you apply to residencies (ie 5 -10 years after dental school and in general dentistry practice)
 
Is it suggested to get the letters while in dental school and have them hold on to it until the day you apply to residencies (ie 5 -10 years after dental school and in general dentistry practice)


Hahaha... I don't think so. I would think programs would understand. Good question though. For pedo I know most all programs require a letter from your pre-doc pedo director.
 
We have taken applicants into our pedo program who have been out practicing for some time, with excellent results. Obviously board scores and GPA still count, no matter how old. As far as letters of recommendation, they can come from partners, employers, members of study clubs or organizations which you have been active in, etc. Of course it would be nice to have something from a pediatric dentist who you work with as well. The essay will have to tell your story, and it may be enough for an interview. Barring that, you may have to do a PGY 2 GPR year with a concentration in Pedo to get some play. Have seen this as well. None of this is written in stone, and none of it may work. If you have been out 14 years, the grind of being a resident might be something to think about, it's a tough lifestyle. Also consider that at my program both the PD and Asst PD would be younger than you.
 
We have taken applicants into our pedo program who have been out practicing for some time, with excellent results. Obviously board scores and GPA still count, no matter how old.

SetDoc7-I have been practicing for 18 years and am currently applying to ortho. It never ceases to amaze me, or those who know me, that my grades from 20 years ago (miserable at best) when I was a completely different person would play a bigger role than my contribution to dentistry since that time.

I'm not angry, but simply confused. Those who know me say that unlike a dental student, I am now a proven commodity who has worked hard to change who I was 20 years ago in dental school. I am going back to school to take the clinical knowledge I have and merge it with Orthodontics to become the best that I can be. Being the oldest in the class means nothing to me because it's supposed to be about collaboration, right?

In your opinion, why are class rank, NDBE and GPA at all important for a candidate like myself (and others) who are clearly very different people 18 years later?

It would be great to hear an "insider's" viewpoint.

Thanks so much!
 
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If a dentist has been practicing general dentistry for 5 years and decided then he/she wanted to do a specialty, how does that work?

For the app process, they obviously can't go back to dental school and do research or getting recommendations might be a tough task and board scores might be outdated after 5 years, so what do dentists who've been practicing for some time apply to specialties?

i wouldn't think it'd be so hard to ask for LORs from your previous professors if you only graduated 5 years ago. if you were a good student and personable i'm sure they'd remember you and be more than happy to write on your behalf. i can't really give any input about board scores...
 
SetDoc7-I have been practicing for 18 years and am currently applying to ortho. It never ceases to amaze me, or those who know me, that my grades from 20 years ago (miserable at best) when I was a completely different person would play a bigger role than my contribution to dentistry since that time.

I'm not angry, but simply confused. I've lectured internationally on interdisciplinary treatment planning, have 2 chapters in noted dental textbooks, have been a restorative advisor to 2 study clubs and scored a 1350 on the GRE while running a practice full time. Those who know me say that unlike a dental student, I am now a proven commodity who has worked hard to change who I was 20 years ago in dental school. I am going back to school to take the clinical knowledge I have and merge it with Orthodontics to become the best that I can be. Being the oldest in the class means nothing to me because it's supposed to be about collaboration, right?

In your opinion, why are class rank, NDBE and GPA at all important for a candidate like myself (and others) who are clearly very different people 18 years later?

It would be great to hear an "insider's" viewpoint.

Thanks so much!

just curious -- what makes you want to do ortho after 18 years in practice?? seems like you'd be giving up a lot...

in an attempt to answer your question about why class rank, etcetcetc matters even to this day, let me first say i understand your frustration and agree that experience should be taken into account. however, if things worked the way you suggest it should, then almost everyone that has been in private practice for an extended period of time would be equally eligible to pursue ortho. how do you compare all these applicants with tons of private practice experience? who's more qualified than who? if numbers don't matter, where do you start the weeding out? not everyone who applies can be interviewed for ortho, and, unfortunately, initially the competitive specialties are largely a numbers game... it has and always will be as long as it remains a highly desirable specialty.

just my honest take on things since you asked. either way i do wish you the best of luck in the application cycle and hope that some programs do see the value of your experience. take care.
 
OG2-Thanks so much for your kind wishes. I appreciate your response, and you ask some good questions. Here's my response to a couple.

I have an amazing practice with financial security. Yes, it's hard to walk away, but here's why I am doing it at age 42. I spent three years in an occlusion residency with about 500 hours of hands on training and lit review. I've been doing serious interdisciplinary dentistry for over 15 years. I know that it is my calling and I can make a difference in the field. I am not in it for the money and I'm not in it for notoriety. I'm applying because I see a need and want to fill it, and I think it is something that I would truly love to do. General dentistry is resective. Everything gets cut or extracted. Ortho is about rearrangement. It's an art form and amazing to work with (or against) biology. It simply took me until this point,a journey, if you will, to figure out that this is what I should do. At 42? That isn't too old. I have 25 more years to practice ortho.

Your question about how one should weed out experienced applicants is a good one, however, look at the top business schools like Harvard, Stanford, Wharton. Every one of them not only relishes experience, but most of their applicants have been in the workforce for a while. That's a real life model that must distinguish one experienced applicant from another. How do they do it? It's easy: The CV and letters of recommendation.

Are you going to tell me that a guy who is 1st in his class with a 99 board score in his 3rd year of dental school is more prepared to "hit the ground running" or know how to run a successful practice, or assist fellow residents with difficult interdisciplinary treatment planning decisions? If you seriously look at CVs you can tell who loves to learn and who doesn't. I was 20 years old in dental school and simply wasn't ready or mature. I can't change that, but I have made serious amends since that time.

But alas, I do not make the rules, and I am comfortable abiding by them. What choice do I have, right? Every program says that they review applications of experience people like myself very differently than new grads, but we'll see what happens when interviews get handed out. So far, as far as I know, 5 schools have passed me by. I only hope that I will be given the chance to show one program how I can make them proud as an alum.

Crazy, isn't it?
 
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Have you done any research on dentaltown? There's sooo much wonderful information by ACTUAL dentists who have been practicing for years and could give you much better information than these mostly pre-dent people. Have you considered, since you have so much real world/CE experience, to simply focus your practice on orthodontics? Do you really have to go back to school and get that certificate? Can you work more side by side with fellow orthodontists at study clubs etc? The point is that there are tons of dentists out there who do not specialize but start to limit the focus of their practices. Since you are a general dentist you have the power to keep patients in your office or refer out. You can also become friends with fellow generals and swap patients...your endo and crown patients for their orthos. Remember, general dentistry is beautifully designed so you can do whatever you want!
 
OG2-Thanks so much for your kind wishes. I appreciate your response, and you ask some good questions. Here's my response to a couple.

I have an amazing practice with financial security. Yes, it's hard to walk away, but here's why I am doing it at age 42. I spent three years in an occlusion residency with about 500 hours of hands on training and lit review. I've been doing serious interdisciplinary dentistry for over 15 years. It is indeed unfortunate, but the overwhelming majority of practicing orthodontists have no idea how to properly set cases up for successful outcomes. Most practiced general dentistry, if at all, for what? 3 ,4 or even 5 whole years? It took me 15 to figure it out and that was with three years spent on occlusion and mentors who are internationally famous lecturers spending hundreds of hours with me. I know that it is my calling and I can make a difference in the field. If any applicant is doing it for the right reasons, it's me. I am not in it for the money and I'm not in it for notoriety. I'm applying because I see a need and want to fill it, and I think it is something that I would truly love to do. General dentistry is resective. Everything gets cut or extracted. Ortho is about rearrangement. It's an art form and amazing to work with (or against) biology. It simply took me until this point,a journey, if you will, to figure out that this is what I should do. At 42? That isn't too old. I have 25 more years to practice ortho.

Your question about how one should weed out experienced applicants is a good one, however, look at the top business schools like Harvard, Stanford, Wharton. Every one of them not only relishes experience, but most of their applicants have been in the workforce for a while. That's a real life model that must distinguish one experienced applicant from another. How do they do it? It's easy: The CV and letters of recommendation.

If you were to see my CV (the same one I submitted to all of the programs) you would see that I've published chapters in textbooks, lectured over 55 times at meeting around the world, been published in dental periodicals, mentored younger dentists as a big brother, been a restorative advisor to 2 study clubs, created DVDs and tools for dentistry in use in 13 countries and have over 3000 hours in CE with over 500 in occlusion. I absolutely love to learn and have the financial resources to go back to school without feeling the financial pressure to produce right away. Are you seriously going to tell me that a guy who is 1st in his class with a 99 board score in his 3rd year of dental school is more prepared to "hit the ground running" or know how to run a successful practice, or assist fellow residents with difficult interdisciplinary treatment planning decisions? If you seriously look at CVs you can tell who loves to learn and who doesn't. I was 20 years old in dental school and simply wasn't ready or mature. I can't change that, but I have made serious amends since that time.

But alas, I do not make the rules, and I am comfortable abiding by them. What choice do I have, right? Every program says that they review applications of experience people like myself very differently than new grads, but we'll see what happens when interviews get handed out. So far, as far as I know, 5 schools have passed me by. I only hope that I will be given the chance to show one program how I can make them proud as an alum.

Crazy, isn't it?

Excuse my ignorance. What is an occlusion residency? Is that like LVI or something?
 
No, thankfully, it was nothing like LVI.

10 of us from around the US were accepted into a 3 year program, run every 10 years or so, at the University of Washington. It was taught by one of the best "old time " gnathologists around, and we spend 3 years, 40 hours/quarter, focusing on the role occlusion played in successful restorative outcomes. We had to do cases from one crown to full mouth rehabs, with full photographic documentation, presentations and ripping each other apart. We learned fully adjustable facebows and fully adjustable Stewart articluators. We tatooed TMJs and really learned about the value of CR. We did full lit reviews and truly focused on occlusion and "advanced " dentistry. It gave me no more credentials, but I finally understood what the heck I was supposed to be doing clinically, and more importantly, why I was doing what I was doing.

It was an amazing experience, and got me interested in ortho. I had twins on the way, and I was unable to apply at that time. Now, 7 years later, I'm in a better place to do it.

I wish every orthodontist got that sort of training before learning mechanics, but it simply isn't feasible. It's no longer given and most doctors aren't excited enough about the nuts and bolts to do that.

Does that explain it better?
 
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No, thankfully, it was nothing like LVI.

10 of us from around the US were accepted into a 3 year program, run every 10 years or so, at the University of Washington. It was taught by one of the best "old time " gnathologists around, and we spend 3 years, 40 hours/quarter, focusing on the role occlusion played in successful restorative outcomes. We had to do cases from one crown to full mouth rehabs, with full photographic documentation, presentations and ripping each other apart. We learned fully adjustable facebows and fully adjustable Stewart articluators. We tatooed TMJs and really learned about the value of CR. We did full lit reviews and truly focused on occlusion and "advanced " dentistry. It gave me no more credentials, but I finally understood what the heck I was supposed to be doing clinically, and more importantly, why I was doing what I was doing.

It was an amazing experience, and got me interested in ortho. I had twins on the way, and I was unable to apply at that time. Now, 7 years later, I'm in a better place to do it.

I wish every orthodontist got that sort of training before learning mechanics, but it simply isn't feasible. It's no longer given and most doctors aren't excited enough about the nuts and bolts to do that.

Does that explain it better?

Yes, thank you. Interesting programme. Good luck on your ortho quest👍
 
I think you have a great shot, GO FOR IT!!! What residency program wouldn't love to have someone with all that experience?
 
Amalgamator42- Thanks for your kind words, but believe it or not, I am not considered a prime applicant. Maybe programs feel that no matter how eager someone like me is, maybe the perception is that we aren't able to get back into "education" mode again. Perhaps there's a level of intimidation about bringing in an experienced clinician. Maybe they are afraid of someone who is a "know it all".

In the end, I know that I am an eager student and I'd love to collaborate with my fellow residents to help make all of us better. I have documented (photographically) hundreds of cases from start to finish and it could help a lot of younger inexperienced residents with interdisciplinary treatment planning.

Either way, if you look at the statistics of admissions to ortho, most programs would take a person who is #1-3 rank in their class with mid 90's scores over someone like me almost every time.

As proof, I applied to many schools. So far, 5 that I have applied to have given out interviews and I am yet to get one. Let's hope it's not an omen of things to come. If warm thought and well wishes would help, I know I'd be in.

Good luck to you all, and it has been (so far) my pleasure to answer the questions that many of you have been asking this ol' 42 yo geezer about practice stuff. If you think it's a good question, post it and let me know and I'll answer for everyone. There have been some really good questions that I wished I had asked someone 20 years ago.

Best Wishes.
 
OG2-Thanks so much for your kind wishes. I appreciate your response, and you ask some good questions. Here's my response to a couple.

I have an amazing practice with financial security. Yes, it's hard to walk away, but here's why I am doing it at age 42. I spent three years in an occlusion residency with about 500 hours of hands on training and lit review. I've been doing serious interdisciplinary dentistry for over 15 years. It is indeed unfortunate, but the overwhelming majority of practicing orthodontists have no idea how to properly set cases up for successful outcomes. Most practiced general dentistry, if at all, for what? 3 ,4 or even 5 whole years? It took me 15 to figure it out and that was with three years spent on occlusion and mentors who are internationally famous lecturers spending hundreds of hours with me. I know that it is my calling and I can make a difference in the field. If any applicant is doing it for the right reasons, it's me. I am not in it for the money and I'm not in it for notoriety. I'm applying because I see a need and want to fill it, and I think it is something that I would truly love to do. General dentistry is resective. Everything gets cut or extracted. Ortho is about rearrangement. It's an art form and amazing to work with (or against) biology. It simply took me until this point,a journey, if you will, to figure out that this is what I should do. At 42? That isn't too old. I have 25 more years to practice ortho.

Your question about how one should weed out experienced applicants is a good one, however, look at the top business schools like Harvard, Stanford, Wharton. Every one of them not only relishes experience, but most of their applicants have been in the workforce for a while. That's a real life model that must distinguish one experienced applicant from another. How do they do it? It's easy: The CV and letters of recommendation.

If you were to see my CV (the same one I submitted to all of the programs) you would see that I've published chapters in textbooks, lectured over 55 times at meeting around the world, been published in dental periodicals, mentored younger dentists as a big brother, been a restorative advisor to 2 study clubs, created DVDs and tools for dentistry in use in 13 countries and have over 3000 hours in CE with over 500 in occlusion. I absolutely love to learn and have the financial resources to go back to school without feeling the financial pressure to produce right away. Are you seriously going to tell me that a guy who is 1st in his class with a 99 board score in his 3rd year of dental school is more prepared to "hit the ground running" or know how to run a successful practice, or assist fellow residents with difficult interdisciplinary treatment planning decisions? If you seriously look at CVs you can tell who loves to learn and who doesn't. I was 20 years old in dental school and simply wasn't ready or mature. I can't change that, but I have made serious amends since that time.

But alas, I do not make the rules, and I am comfortable abiding by them. What choice do I have, right? Every program says that they review applications of experience people like myself very differently than new grads, but we'll see what happens when interviews get handed out. So far, as far as I know, 5 schools have passed me by. I only hope that I will be given the chance to show one program how I can make them proud as an alum.

Crazy, isn't it?

appreciate the response. in regards to your analogy about top business schools and their preference to recruit those who have a ton of experience, although this is true i believe where the comparison falls a bit short in our particular situation is that those who get into the top business schools are typically individuals who have excelled in academics initially, enabling them to land jobs at competitive firms, allowing them to gain the experience necessary to be accepted into HBS/Stanford/Sloan/Wharton...

to address the comment about "hitting the ground running" -- orthodontics by and large doesn't seem to be a specialty that necessarily values real world experience and the knowledge/bias that comes along with it. i'm not sure why this is, but it's my impression that sometimes a clean slate seems to be more desired by most ortho programs. of course there are programs that stress experience, whether it be GPR/AEGD or private practice (St Barnabas and probably some of the other hospital-based programs come to mind), but it seems to be the exception rather than the norm.

how many programs did you apply to? this is a bit of a tangent, but someone in a post above mentioned that you could limit your GP practice to orthodontics...have you ever considered going that route? not necessarily encouraging it, but with your occlusion knowledge perhaps it would work out combined with ortho CE?
 
OG2,

You have an awesome perspective of things. You are correct when you said "orthodontics by and large doesn't seem to be a specialty that necessarily values real world experience and the knowledge/bias that comes along with it." That's what I am coming up against.

In answering your question, I have never considered being a GP limiting my practice to just ortho. It simply isn't the same. My reasons for wanting to go into ortho are mainly based upon the fact that most ortho programs, as you mentioned, like a "clean slate", and as a result, many orthodontists in this world have minimal experience and knowledge about how to properly set up a complex interdisciplinary cases, especially when implants are involved for anchorage.

My goal is to become an accredited orthodontist and follow in the footsteps of my mentors by lecturing to GPs and other specialties about the restorative/ortho/surgical interplay drawing upon my experience. As a specialist, my sphere of influence can be very broad, and I can one day tell my kids that I made a difference in this world. My financial goals are on pace to be met with or without orthodontics and without sounding overly altruistic, I really want to give back to the profession. I've lectured a ton, and it's a blast to see my students with that "Aha!" moment, but the only way to really do what I want to do is to suck it up, go to school, learn every way I can and then start assisting the GPs with whom I work and the colleagues whom I meet. I can't do that as a GP.

As you can tell, I'm pretty passionate about this. I mean no disrespect to those orthodontists and students who were tops in their class and went straight into a program. They were the best, worked hard and deserve every accolade and reward they have achieved. I'm just saying that we don't know what we don't know, and for ortho, I see it more about the process of getting to ortho school, than simply getting a certificate and going into practice. Even the orthodontist who has 30 years of experience has learned through trial and error, not through immersion as a restorative dentist, and no other specialty touches upon every other aspect of dentistry as much as orthodontics.

In answering your question about how many programs I applied to, I learned through watching this site that one should apply to as many as possible. I applied to a ton. So far, not a lot of luck, but I have no control at this point and have to hope that my faith in my good intentions resonates within the karmic universe somewhere. I'm a believer that if it's meant to be, it's meant to be and I cannot change that at this point. I have great letters of recommendation, a 1350 GRE and a CV as long as my arm. Can't do more than that.

I could have been a GP who does mediocre ortho for the rest of my life, but as my guiding principle has told me for the last 15 years or so...

Good is the enemy of great....
 
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I think as a special type of applicant you may need to get to know someone in increase your chances and overcome some of the bias you face and that has been already brought up.

For example, you could schedule a visit to your dental school and talk with the director about your plans and applying. That way he will be on the lookout for your name. Is there anyway you could work as faculty for a dental school for a year or so? Even just as part-time clinical adjunct? I have seen that work two different times for people that wanted to go to ortho after being a GP. Besides, it may be really rewarding to teach and how can they shoot down a colleague that they know?

I would try to schedule a visit to a few schools (a little late for that now) and try and schedule an appt with the director and be humble and sincere. I know that our director would let you do it, we have about 10 people that are bold enough to ask to visit the program for a day and we welcome them with open arms (I've heard this isn't the case everywhere). Trust me, during lunch or a meeting he will mention, "hey I got a 40 year old looking to enter ortho, weird huh?" and they will ask more questions and you will be remembered.

GOOD LUCK, I'd love to have a co-resident with experience.
 
Great advice, and actually, I did exactly that. As you can guess, with a full time practice and 3 kids, I couldn't go visiting 30 programs, but I did visit 6 back in June. Thankfully, to date, of the 7 programs that have given interviews to which I applied and haven't been invited, none were ones that I visited. (I may have even visited yours....).

Amalgamator42, it's never too late to put a good word in for me. I'd love to be your co-resident. 🙂

If I don't get in this go-round, I will be applying next year, in which case I hope to pitch a tent outside the director's office for every program to which I apply...

Anyway, I didn't mean to usurp the entire thread with my ramblings. I just came here originally to answer Korndoctor's original question. As you can see, it's morphed a little bit.

Having been through this process, and as I've told a bunch of younger docs, if I only I was mature enough to truly understand 20 years ago that you get one shot at NDBE and rank/GPA. Make it count!!! No matter what!!! I was too young (20) and immature at the time, with dad's practice waiting for me. I just didn't work as hard as I should have and now I have to live with that, no matter how hard I've worked since.

For grads out of school a few years, I would definitely recommend photographing every single case so that you may begin lecturing at a local (and if lucky, bigger) level. There, you will make contacts and really get an idea of what each specialty does. People will begin to recognize your name and you might be able to work those contacts to help you in meeting people at programs. Also, the best teachers become the best students and you'll simply learn a lot. Not to mention seeing your dentistry on a huge scree is a sobering experience. In short, Korndoctor, work your A** off in school like there is no tomorrow , no matter what. If that didn't work, build your CV, make contacts and become a perpetual student. It can only help you. I agree with amalgamator42 that you should visit as many programs as you can (the directors told me that 80% of their applicants never visit their programs.)

Good luck all! I'll be sending you all good karmic vibes!:luck:
 
With your experience and beliefs in "gnathology" you may be best suited to apply to programs that are geared toward Roth philosophy orthodontics. I am pretty sure Detroit Mercy still is one.

Just one more thing to think about.
 
Thanks Kato999. Also great advice. If I don't get in this go-round, I will consider it.

By the way, I definitely do not buy into gnathology as my primary occlusal approach. I use it as a tool in the toolbox that gave me an AWESOME understanding of why the joints and muscles do what they do and how they relate to the occlusal scheme. As a practicing dentist, understanding CR and its' relevance was huge for me.

Thanks
 
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OldestApp,

I feel your pain. I have 10 years private practice experience and applied for endo and out of the 4 applications, I only received an interview at my alma mater, I think as a courtesy🙄. I spoke with the first year residents and I was amazed how little experience they have and not to toot my own horn, I "felt" like a better candidate than the 3 other interviewees. I'm not as accomplished as you are but I felt pretty proud of my accomplishments. Grades and NBDE were mediocre but I always thought that experience would have trumped it. My letters of rec were from some of my dental school classmates/friends that are now specialty faculty and one of them is the director of OS.
I gave myself a two year window so next year will be my last attempt....
BTW were you in the accelerated dental program? U saying something about starting dental school at 20 years of age....I was in the same program so I could relate on the maturity aspect of that.
 
Unfortunately grades and NBDE scores still matter. Postgrad programs want the best candidates to score the highest possible on the American Board of ___your specialty___ written exams. Whether high scores on a written exam makes you a better specialist or not is questionable, but ortho program directors like to brag about their residents being in the top quintile for the ABO for example. If your application doesn't get you in, maybe you could buy your seat?
 
OldestApp,

I feel your pain. I have 10 years private practice experience and applied for endo and out of the 4 applications, I only received an interview at my alma mater, I think as a courtesy🙄. I spoke with the first year residents and I was amazed how little experience they have and not to toot my own horn, I "felt" like a better candidate than the 3 other interviewees. I'm not as accomplished as you are but I felt pretty proud of my accomplishments. Grades and NBDE were mediocre but I always thought that experience would have trumped it. My letters of rec were from some of my dental school classmates/friends that are now specialty faculty and one of them is the director of OS.
I gave myself a two year window so next year will be my last attempt....
BTW were you in the accelerated dental program? U saying something about starting dental school at 20 years of age....I was in the same program so I could relate on the maturity aspect of that.
I can appreciate that you might be a great candidate, but if you only apply to 4 programs, you really can't complain a ton that you only got one interview. What if you had applied to 20 programs? You could have had 5 interviews at the same rate. If you really want to be an endodontist, you have to apply to a lot of programs all over the country. Best of luck.
 
4 Programs???? Dude you gotta apply to at least 8 or 10! Thats nothing....also note that the number of applications for endo isn't that high so you'd have a pretty good chance of getting in to a program....
 
Guys, I agree. I applied to 37 programs. Yes, it consumed my existence for over 3 months. I killed myself studying for the GRE and with 3 kids and a practice, I got a 1350. I felt that it would show that I am not the same student I was 20 years ago. Well, apparently, my GRE is enough to get me into Harvard Business School MBA, but means squat at most ortho programs. I have letters of rec from one of the top orthodontists in the world and 2 other specialists who have known me for 10 years and have vouched for my emotional and academic change as I matured. I have a CV a mile long and even had research experience in college and dental school in a very prestigious lab. All in all, after having 25 of 26 programs passing me by so far (yes, I have an interview and it is at one of my favorite programs) it is clear that even though every resident says that they wish they had someone like me in their program to help them, grades are the only thing that really matter.

It's a great lesson for my kids. Great grades will never close a door on you. Ready or not, you have to kick butt.

yes, I was 16 out of high school, 20 out of college. I'm 42 and have been practicing for 18 years. I was totally sheltered, uncontrolled ADHD and had my father's practice waiting for me. I kicked my own butt hard and studied, but it wasn't until this year, studying for the GRE that I finally figured out why I didn't do well in dental school. My mind raced way too much when taking exams and until I was literally "taught" how to take an exam by Princeton Review, I had no idea why I simply couldn't score well when I really knew the material. It makes me a much better parent to guide my kids when they have trouble.

Good luck all, and if you have any questions about business or practice, I'm always thrilled to help. In the meantime, I have 1 interview and I'm going to make it count!
 
Guys, I agree. I applied to 37 programs. Yes, it consumed my existence for over 3 months. I killed myself studying for the GRE and with 3 kids and a practice, I got a 1350. I felt that it would show that I am not the same student I was 20 years ago. Well, apparently, my GRE is enough to get me into Harvard Business School MBA, but means squat at most ortho programs. I have letters of rec from one of the top orthodontists in the world and 2 other specialists who have known me for 10 years and have vouched for my emotional and academic change as I matured. I have a CV a mile long and even had research experience in college and dental school in a very prestigious lab. All in all, after having 25 of 26 programs passing me by so far (yes, I have an interview and it is at one of my favorite programs) it is clear that even though every resident says that they wish they had someone like me in their program to help them, grades are the only thing that really matter.

It's a great lesson for my kids. Great grades will never close a door on you. Ready or not, you have to kick butt.

yes, I was 16 out of high school, 20 out of college. I'm 42 and have been practicing for 18 years. I was totally sheltered, uncontrolled ADHD and had my father's practice waiting for me. I kicked my own butt hard and studied, but it wasn't until this year, studying for the GRE that I finally figured out why I didn't do well in dental school. My mind raced way too much when taking exams and until I was literally "taught" how to take an exam by Princeton Review, I had no idea why I simply couldn't score well when I really knew the material. It makes me a much better parent to guide my kids when they have trouble.

Good luck all, and if you have any questions about business or practice, I'm always thrilled to help. In the meantime, I have 1 interview and I'm going to make it count!
Good luck for your interview....
 
OldestAppl, good luck with the interview! and hopefully you get more.

I understand some of your frustrations, I myself applied to residency after beeing out for 5 yrs. It really boggled my mind that private practice experience was sometimes looked at as a negative in my applications.
Keep at it though. it took me a couple of application cycles but i did end up matching in Pedo. It was definitely worth the struggle!
 
Thanks so much for your encouragement. I will definitely re-apply if I don't get in.

I agree with you about the whole experience thing. I honestly (with no hostility meant) believe that any resident can become a better specialist if they truly "understand" general dentistry first. Anyone who has been out there for a while knows what I mean.

Take care all.
 
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Hi Korndoctor.

I've been away for a while, but realized, while browsing this morning, that I don't know if I ever truly answered the question that you posed way back at the beginning of the thread. Unfortunately, my responses to your thread started at the very beginning of the interview cycle when I was getting overlooked by a lot of programs and because of questions being thrown at me about my unusual candidacy at age 42, combined with a true frustration on my behalf, the whole thread ended up taking a turn away from what really mattered, namely, your original question. So I'm REALLY sorry to have usurped space on what was a really good question.

Well, over 3 weeks have passed since my first response to your question, I've gotten some interviews, and I can give you a much better idea about the process for an "experienced" GP like yourself.

1. First of all, you should expect major "highs" and "lows" through the application process. I know it sounds obvious, but until you experience it, it's simply hard to explain. Now that the first stage is almost over, I can tell you that I have a much deeper respect for anyone who has ever gone through a program (or even simply been through the application process). The process is grueling, it is super selective and if you are in a place in life like you and I are (running a full time practice, managing a family, etc) the added stress of the application process can seriously affect the way you look at things, and make you re-evaluate your self worth in very weird ways. I'm just thankful that I recognized how my personality was changing when programs started handing out interviews and I wasn't on the list. When my top choice called me, my outlook took a 180 degree turn from pessimistic and depressed to elated and optimistic. It sounds schizophrenic, but I've spoken to other candidates and they have experienced the same thing.

2. Go into this with a clear idea of why you want to do it. Because of all of the work related to the application process and taking the GRE, you should have some really good reasons for doing this. You've been practicing for 5 years and probably have made some great headway in the field. To throw away your "momentum" and all you've built is a very big thing and not to be underestimated, especially if you have a family that counts on you. Nobody could (or should) ever tell you why you should and shouldn't get into ortho, but ask yourself if its REALLY what you want. When the darker times come during the application process (and they will, so don't sweat it) you need to be able to fall back onto a solid reason for doing this to keep you going.

3. Recognize how little you know about the field you're going into. I may be an expert in photography, etc, but I am NOT an orthodontist, and don't even know 1/100th of what a first year ortho resident knows about tooth movement. I know how I'd like a case set up and how to finish it restoratively, but my complete lack of knowledge about tooth movement mechanics is why I want to go back and be trained as a specialist. I am a completely clean slate when it comes to the orthodontic world. When I look back on my posts here, I can see my self validation in every post made when programs weren't calling me. Dentists like us (me more than you due to being out 18 years instead of 5) pose unusual candidacies. When I wasn't getting interviews at first, I felt like I had to defend myself and who I was, and in retrospect, I feel like an idiot. I've spent a lot of time with my mentors who are world class orthodontists, but since the application process, I've started spending more time with my local orthodontists who aren't lecturers, don't do big cases, but are solid people working within their comfort levels. I just saw one this week who really gave me a great outlook on things I've learned so much from them, but most importantly, I've learned how little I truly know. What's the old saying? "You don't know what you don't know."

4. Spend time with every specialist who will let you chat with them. See their offices in action. See how patients are treated. Watch them on a regular basis and you will see how radically different their practices are from ours. It's a great eye opening experience and will either change you rmind about the process or reaffirm it, like it did for me. As GPs, we have a very provincial look at dentistry. Even though my main mentors were orthodontists, I never really got to see it from their side day to day, and it can be a real eye opener. For me, it just made me want it more, but if you're going to throw away the entire life you've built, be sure you know what you're going into.

5. Become the absolute best general dentist you can become. I mean it. Kill yourself. Take as much CE as you can. It will certainly look good on your application, but I have been told by many orthodontists with whom I've met that your restorative background will serve you REALLY well when you become an orthodontist. For me, although I want to go back to school and simply be the best student I can be, I've been told, time and again by my mentors, that I have a responsibility to help my fellow residents understand both the role general dentistry plays in successful case management as well as let them see the side of their potential referral base (general dentists) in a way that will help their practices when they get out. People like you and I owe it to our programs to give back whatever they deem useful and I think it's important for them to know that when you apply, however, we need to be students in a program and my plan is to shut up and "speak only when spoken to" because it's their expertise, not mine that matters.

6. Start photographing your cases and give back to dentistry in the form of teaching and lecturing. Yes, I know that I beat that horse to death, but you will become so much better at general dentistry by doing it and it will certainly look good on your CV. Again, my mentors gave back so much to me with the understanding that I "pay it forward". Good karma comes back around and aside from seeing your outcomes on an 8x 10 screen (which is humbling), you'll be helping others who may not have your experience as a GP. Plus, the best teachers always become th ebest students as they grow.

Sorry for the long post, but life is way less "down" for me and I felt that I owed you my best response. You're looking at embarking on a great trip and I applaud you. I know how ward it is to change your entire life to follow what you feel is the best course of action. Don't give up, give it your best, find great mentors and above all, do not let the process get into your head like it did for me.

If there's anything else I can do, please let me know, and GOOD LUCK!!!
 
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