approximate income from residency to subspecialties

[Law2Doc]

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I was making the point that for my friend to work 50-55 hours in midlaw or in house he would have to take a paycut, I agree with you that someone who has made a lot of contacts and done reasonably well would not necessarily take a paycut as long as they didn't want to work signficantly less.

Part of my point is to correct misconceptions, such as saying "Professionals work long hours. You will in medicine too." Assuming you do a relatively benign residency, it wouldn't be difficult in most specialities to make a comfortable living working 45 hours a week and taking 4-5 weeks vacation every year. If you tried to do this in law or business, it would be much more difficult and would probably involve taking a paycut.

If you worked 45 hours and 4-5 weeks vacation in medicine in most cases you would take a paycut too. Because of the reimbursement system, if you don't have high throughput of patients, you don't generate as much revenue, and no place is going to pay you as much salary.

 

[nosugrefneb]

Could you cite a source that doctors' salaries have decreased significantly in real terms?

Doctors. Ask them. This is common knowledge by now, as much as you want to dispute it in your head.

 

[saradoor]

Well, those two studies show mainly a decline in salaries of primary care physicians (10%). The decline in real terms for specialists was pretty small. I suppose it's some evidence, but I wouldn't say they support law2doc's reference to a lost "golden era" (for salary), certainly not enough to change the kind of house you could buy.

Don't forget the fact that other professionals have seen their incomes increased while physicians' were going south during the same time period (see chart in http://www.hschange.org/CONTENT/851/ from KentW). I am sure you can do the math to see why physicians are not feeling good about that.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

If you worked 45 hours and 4-5 weeks vacation in medicine in most cases you would take a paycut too. Because of the reimbursement system, if you don't have high throughput of patients, you don't generate as much revenue, and no place is going to pay you as much salary.

Not as much of a paycut, you would have a much better pay/work ratio. For example, in psychiatry, the average hours worked is 45 per week (according to the AMA) and the average compensation is 140K. Now psychiatry is hardly the best compensated specialty, it's on the low end. In contrast, when you look at so-called "lifestyle" firms, you're talking about more than 50 hrs. a week (possibly in a secondary market) and probably less money. It's much easier to cut down on hours in medicine and still make a good living.

 

[Law2Doc]

Not as much of a paycut in law, you would have a much better pay/work ratio. For example, in psychiatry, the average hours worked is 45 per week (according to the AMA) and the average compensation is 140K. Now psychiatry is hardly the best compensated specialty, it's on the low end. In contrast, when you look at so-called "lifestyle" firms, you're talking about more than 50 hrs. a week (possibly in a secondary market) and probably less money. It's much easier to cut down on hours in medicine and still make a good living.

Midsized firms will pay that much or more for a person with decent seniority and clients. But yeah, you have a hard time going below 50 hours without being a significant rainmaker.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

Midsized firms will pay that much or more for a person with decent seniority and clients. But yeah, you have a hard time going below 50 hours without being a significant rainmaker.

So I suppose we're mostly in agreement, lawyers can make as much or more but have to work more hours and burn out more frequently than doctors. The other factor I considered is the culture issue in law or business, if you come off as a bit eccentric in some way (and a hell of a lot of educated people do) this will generally either go unnoticed in medicine or will actually humanize you to your patients. In law or business, you have to smooth out those rough edges, which would be a pain in the ass at least for me.

 

[Law2Doc]

So I suppose we're mostly in agreement, lawyers can make as much or more but have to work more hours and burn out more frequently than doctors. The other factor I considered is the culture issue in law or business, if you come off as a bit eccentric in some way (and a hell of a lot of educated people do) this will generally either go unnoticed in medicine or will actually humanize you to your patients. In law or business, you have to smooth out those rough edges, which would be a pain in the ass at least for me.

Depends what you mean by eccentric. Being abrasive, aggressive or mean-spirited can sometimes be an asset in law or business, if you have the smarts to go along with it. "Playing with sharp elbows" we used to call it. Folks want their lawyer to be a pit bull -- so they can be magnanimous and the lawyer or banker can play the bad guy at the meetings. I know lawyers who were only brought into the meeting if the client was willing to risk the deal getting blown apart to get what they wanted. So no, rough edges totally can work if that's your style. But others prefer the conciliatory peacemaker tack. Depends on the deal and the client.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

Depends what you mean by eccentric. Being abrasive, aggressive or mean-spirited can sometimes be an asset in law or business, if you have the smarts to go along with it. "Playing with sharp elbows" we used to call it. Folks want their lawyer to be a pit bull -- so they can be magnanimous and the lawyer or banker can play the bad guy at the meetings. I know lawyers who were only brought into the meeting if the client was willing to risk the deal getting blown apart to get what they wanted. So no, rough edges totally can work if that's your style. But others prefer the conciliatory peacemaker tack. Depends on the deal and the client.

I guess I'm speaking more of the culture in the firm rathr than the relationship with the client, but corporate lawyers tend to talk a lot about being "polished" and "fitting into the firm's culture". I could be wrong from the impressions I've gotten from lawyer friends, but people seem to think this means getting rid of some of their eccentricities in order to fit in.

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess I'm speaking more of the culture in the firm rathr than the relationship with the client, but corporate lawyers tend to talk a lot about being "polished" and "fitting into the firm's culture". I could be wrong from the impressions I've gotten from lawyer friends, but people seem to think this means getting rid of some of their eccentricities in order to fit in.

Depends on your role. As a young associate, you need to fit the mold. Once you have proven yourself and you have your own clients, you can evolve. Every firm has their share of SOBs. Nobody every made their client rich by being meek and polished.

 

[MJB]

I think everyone's view of "a lot of money" is different.

There are 3 cardiologists here in town (about 80K) that all make over 800K/year.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think everyone's view of "a lot of money" is different.

There are 3 cardiologists here in town (about 80K) that all make over 800K/year.

I think everyone would agree that a 800k was a lot of money. 🙄

 

[MJB]

I agree, but to me 150K is a lot of money...heck, 100K is a lot of money.

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree, but to me ... 100K is a lot of money.

Then you, at least, are likely to earn "a lot of money" over the course of much of your medical career.

 

[MJB]

I'll put it this way...I doubt I'll be crying if I "only" make 6 figures... 🙂

Of course, I have no desire to live in NY or LA or Chicago, so I think that should suffice.

If all I wanted was money, I'd stay where I'm at or give Law school a shot...problem being, I already make more than a lot of Law Dogs. 😉

 

[saradoor]

I'll put it this way...I doubt I'll be crying if I "only" make 6 figures... 🙂

Of course, I have no desire to live in NY or LA or Chicago, so I think that should suffice.

If all I wanted was money, I'd stay where I'm at or give Law school a shot...problem being, I already make more than a lot of Law Dogs. 😉

The thing with law and business schools is that school ranking is most important (from my buddy who graduated from a top law school that everybody knows). Once licensed doctors don't have to worry about where they graduated from (in general). This is not true in law and business (again in general).

 

[Law2Doc]

The thing with law and business schools is that school ranking is most important (from my buddy who graduated from a top law school that everybody knows). Once licensed doctors don't have to worry about where they graduated from (in general). This is not true in law and business (again in general).

Somewhat agree. In medicine you are as good as the last place you've been. Meaning where you went to med school is never going to matter as much as where you did residency, and so on. It's a running (hopefully upward) credential.
In law, or business, your law or MBA alma mater will stick with you like a leech. Probably moreso in business, where the Wall St crowd will only interview the top B school grads.
In law there are schools with regional clout -- in every city there's a school you've never heard of that feeds its top grads to a top firm. Also in law, by coming from some law schools, you paint a target on your chest. There's nothing a non-pedigreed lawyer likes to do more than teach some Harvard or Yale punk what's what. It's a jungle out there.

 

[MJB]

Pretty much my point...

I don't know of a doc that makes less than 100K, and most make plenty more than that....

I know plenty of lawyers, MBA's, etc. that don't even come close to 6 figures, and they work their arses off.

 

[Law2Doc]

I know plenty of lawyers, MBA's, etc. that don't even come close to 6 figures, and they work their arses off.

Depends on the crowd you hang with, and the size of the market. Most of the lawyers and bankers I know make more in bonuses than a lot of us are going to make in salaries. But yes, they work for it.

 

[MJB]

Admittedly, the folks I know went to school and work in and around the KC area...the one I know that went to Notre Dame Law and went to work for a big firm in Philly is now in Vet school at Oklahoma State.

 

[Llenroc]

Whooooh, hold on, I find this hard to believe. Where in the US can a GP make $500k a year, even in the boonies. I have NEVER heard of this for a 35 year old, especially a GP. A well known Neurosurgeon in the 1980's MAYBE made that much, but even they can't make that much now. Spinal surgeons that make that much today are harder and harder to come by, unless they make partner...and that sure as heck isn't at 35 y/o. Don't mean to flame, but where did you get this figure, and where do GPs make that much money (so I can go there)?

sscooterguy

You obviously don't know much about medicine. My family is in the field, I've overheard conversations about all kinds of doctors salaries, and there are plenty of primary care doctors that make $400,000+. It's all about finding a location that's less competetive and business skills.

 

[Llenroc]

Somewhat agree. In medicine you are as good as the last place you've been. Meaning where you went to med school is never going to matter as much as where you did residency, and so on. It's a running (hopefully upward) credential.
In law, or business, your law or MBA alma mater will stick with you like a leech. Probably moreso in business, where the Wall St crowd will only interview the top B school grads.
In law there are schools with regional clout -- in every city there's a school you've never heard of that feeds its top grads to a top firm. Also in law, by coming from some law schools, you paint a target on your chest. There's nothing a non-pedigreed lawyer likes to do more than teach some Harvard or Yale punk what's what. It's a jungle out there.

Even where you did your residency doesn't mean jack **** in terms of income. No one cares about hospitals, and no patients ask where you did your training at. The highest earning doctors are almost always guys who did their medical schooling and residency training at average or perhaps below average institutions.

 

[Llenroc]

I disagree with the common Med school statement, "If I wanted to make money, I would have gone into business or law". First of all, the way BIGLAW works these days, you'll need to work 65-70 hours a week in order to make more than your reasonably successful doctors. There's the pressure to attain billable hours requirements, the need to fit into the culture of a corporate law firm, and the fact that you need to be willing to work all night even if you have a family if there's a big merger and you're responsible for the paper work. This doesn't change when you make partner, it only gets worse (except for the money, of course).

In some cases business has better hours (in some cases it doesn't) but it's also a tremendously risky career regardless of what business school you go to. B-school gets you a job making 100K+, but whether you have that job in a couple years depends on your talent, whether your talent fits into the company, whether you're in the right place at the right time (i.e. luck), etc. It's not a guaranteed living the way an MD is, there are a lot of smart people who fail at it.

In contrast, MDs make a salary they can live on during their residency and then are guaranteed either a comfortable living or a decadent living for the rest of their life (depending on specialty, region, etc.)

I love when people say stuff like, "Oh if you wanted to make money you should have become an investment banker". Do you have any idea how hard those jobs are to get? There are only a handful of investment banking positions in the country, and tens or hundreds of thousands of people apply for them each year.

With medical school, at least if you get a certain GPA, and MCAT score, you can have some certainty of getting in. With good paying business jobs out of college - unless you have some major connections, just forget about it.

 

[Law2Doc]

I love when people say stuff like, "Oh if you wanted to make money you should have become an investment banker". Do you have any idea how hard those jobs are to get? There are only a handful of investment banking positions in the country, and tens or hundreds of thousands of people apply for them each year.

With medical school, at least if you get a certain GPA, and MCAT score, you can have some certainty of getting in. With good paying business jobs out of college - unless you have some major connections, just forget about it.

And I love when people say stuff like "it's hard to make money in business". It's actually not as hard as you think to get high paying jobs in other fields. This response is extremely popular from folks on SDN trying to justify their choice of medicine.
Most of the people on here will put forth a whole lot of hard work and effort and drive to get into med school, and jump through a ton of hoops. If you channelled this same kind of effort into getting into the business world, you would succeed there too. Lots do.

 

[nighthawk3]

Well, that's a different matter entirely. When most people talk about personal income, they're referring to net income after business expenses, but before taxes. If his overhead is around 60%, like the average primary care practice, that would leave him with $200K before taxes.

His office expenses are less than $120K per year. His wife is the secretary and he has one nurse. Before taxes, he is netting around $375K.

 

[nighthawk3]

And I love when people say stuff like "it's hard to make money in business". It's actually not as hard as you think to get high paying jobs in other fields. This response is extremely popular from folks on SDN trying to justify their choice of medicine.
Most of the people on here will put forth a whole lot of hard work and effort and drive to get into med school, and jump through a ton of hoops. If you channelled this same kind of effort into getting into the business world, you would succeed there too. Lots do.

There are tons of factors involved in financial success, but can we agree that doctors have by far and away the greatest odds of having a guaranteed good salary? Sure there are people in the business world making bank, but the vast majority of them aren't making anywhere near 6 figures, whereas just about every graduate of med school is guaranteed at least that.

 

[fun8stuff]

Depends on the crowd you hang with, and the size of the market. Most of the lawyers and bankers I know make more in bonuses than a lot of us are going to make in salaries. But yes, they work for it.

Isn't the average law salary a little over 60k?

edit: my bad... http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm
"In May 2004, the median annual earnings of all lawyers were $94,930. The middle half of the occupation earned between $64,620 and $143,620. "

 

[Law2Doc]

There are tons of factors involved in financial success, but can we agree that doctors have by far and away the greatest odds of having a guaranteed good salary? Sure there are people in the business world making bank, but the vast majority of them aren't making anywhere near 6 figures, whereas just about every graduate of med school is guaranteed at least that.

The majority isn't what's comparable. You have to look for the equivalent cut off or you are comparing apples and oranges. There area about 16,000 graduates of allo schools each year. There are more than 16,000 graduates from law schools (out of a much greater total) making what most would consider high starting salaries. Similarly business schools. That there are many many more times than 16,000 of each of these other groups out there, some making considerably less, is what gives you your skewed information. Sure, the bottom is lower but the same number (or more) still are at the success level. And again, there are not even guarantees, even in medicine.

 

[Law2Doc]

Isn't the average law salary a little over 60k?

edit: my bad... http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm
"In May 2004, the median annual earnings of all lawyers were $94,930. The middle half of the occupation earned between $64,620 and $143,620. "

Apples and oranges. You are comparing a small group to a much much larger one with a significantly larger range. See my prior post. There are many more law schools, with many more seats per school, and accepting a much greater range of students. There are many times more law grads. Many earn nominal, bringing down the average. As a sheer number, more law grads than residency grads each year come out to 6 digit jobs nonetheless.
As I said before, one who puts the same effort towards a law degree and job as premed students put toward med school and residency will come out on top. So too in business.

 

[nighthawk3]

The majority isn't what's comparable. You have to look for the equivalent cut off or you are comparing apples and oranges. There area about 16,000 graduates of allo schools each year. There are more than 16,000 graduates from law schools (out of a much greater total) making what most would consider high starting salaries. Similarly business schools. That there are many many more times than 16,000 of each of these other groups out there, some making considerably less, is what gives you your skewed information. Sure, the bottom is lower but the same number (or more) still are at the success level. And again, there are not even guarantees, even in medicine.

I think that by saying x amount of lawyers are successful and x amount of doctors are successful, but x+10000 lawyers graduate from law school and x+2 doctors graduate from med school only proves my point. Medicine provides a much greater guarantee, even if you aren't the top doctor.

 

[toofache32]

First of all, guys, there are no "GPs" in the U.S. anymore. Family medicine became a board-certified specialty in the late 1960's. If you're going to work in the health professions, you might as well start using the correct terminology.

Wow. Incredibly d!ckish for a moderator. Everyone else knew exactly what the OP was talking about. If you're smart enough to get through med school, maybe you should be able to understand "layman" terms which are still used even by healthcare professionals and even more often by patients. Removing the corn cobb from said mod's nether-regions may also remedy the affliction.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

It would be challenging to earn $500K after expenses from simply billing typical primary care E&M codes. You'd have to see a ton of patients, either very quickly, or by having long office hours (including nights, weekends, etc.) If one had access to a revenue stream from ancillary services (e.g., diagnostic laboratory, imaging center, etc.), did loads of procedures, had an ownership stake in a large practice, or received a sizable guaranteed salary to practice in an underserved area...

Can someone (including Kent) tell me more about the sizable guaranteed salaries a physician may get for practicing in an underserved area? I thought one of the reasons those areas were underserved was that you couldn't get a sizable salary in those areas? Who guarantees these salaries? How do future phsyicians find out about them?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Can someone (including Kent) tell me more about the sizable guaranteed salaries a physician may get for practicing in an underserved area? I thought one of the reasons those areas were underserved was that you couldn't get a sizable salary in those areas? Who guarantees these salaries? How do future phsyicians find out about them?

My understanding is that you can actually make more money practicing in a rural area than you might make in the city or suburbs just because you have a guaranteed patient base. Physicians still don't practice in rural areas because most people don't want to live in small towns, especially small towns that aren't in beautiful areas. My statement above is based on people I know who practice in rural, non-desirable areas.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

That has nothing to do with income. There is no insurance carrier that will reimburse a routine ambulatory E&M code (even for an orthopod) anywhere close to that amount. He could've billed $1,000,000 for the visit...it doesn't really matter. If insurance pays $100 (which is probably a lot closer to what he'll get than what he billed), that's all he's going to net. He can't bill you for the difference, either.

Then how come some doctor who I never even saw (I think he just confirmed some chest x-rays for my PCP) sent me a $11.81 bill after being reimbursed by two health insurance companies for over six hundred and some odd dollars?

In fact, one of my parent's credit report has like 4 collections amount from labs/clinics for amounts not fully reimbursed by insurance.

 

[deleted87716]

Then how come some doctor who I never even saw (I think he just confirmed some chest x-rays for my PCP) sent me a $11.81 bill after being reimbursed by two health insurance companies for over six hundred and some odd dollars?

There's no way I can answer this without seeing the EOB.

In general, physicians can balance-bill patients for non-covered services, unmet deductibles, and co-payments. However, they are bound by contract to accept the reimbursement for covered services, and are not permitted to balance-bill patients for the difference between the amount charged and the amount reimbursed.

 

[MJB]

Can someone (including Kent) tell me more about the sizable guaranteed salaries a physician may get for practicing in an underserved area? I thought one of the reasons those areas were underserved was that you couldn't get a sizable salary in those areas? Who guarantees these salaries? How do future phsyicians find out about them?

I'm not certain about MD/DO's, but I have a friend that is a dentist that move to BFE Kansas (he grew up in a very small, rural town and loved it and that's what he wanted)....The government is paying his and his wife's (dental hyg.) loans off...he bought the practice from a DDS leaving for about 200K, and has it paid off...grossed nearly 500K last year...he's in his 2nd or 3rd year out.

He makes WAY more than the average GP Dentist because he is in the middle of BFE and does more procedures than the city D's do...put it this way...he bought an employee a car because she commutes 90 miles one way to work and he wanted to keep her around.

Closest "specialists" are about 2 hours away or so.

If you are the only doc in a 90-150 mile radius, I can see how you would make a TON of money if you played your cards right, especially considering you can get your loans taken care of.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

I'm not certain about MD/DO's, but I have a friend that is a dentist that move to BFE Kansas (he grew up in a very small, rural town and loved it and that's what he wanted)....The government is paying his and his wife's (dental hyg.) loans off...he bought the practice from a DDS leaving for about 200K, and has it paid off...grossed nearly 500K last year...he's in his 2nd or 3rd year out.

He makes WAY more than the average GP Dentist because he is in the middle of BFE and does more procedures than the city D's do...put it this way...he bought an employee a car because she commutes 90 miles one way to work and he wanted to keep her around.

Closest "specialists" are about 2 hours away or so.

If you are the only doc in a 90-150 mile radius, I can see how you would make a TON of money if you played your cards right, especially considering you can get your loans taken care of.

The other side of that coin is that you can't just pick a certain rural area you want to have a practice in and expect that to be possible: in some cases, the market is cornered. I know an OB/GYN whose spouse got their dream job in a rural area, and it's literally impossible for her to open a practice because the community's needs are already fully satisfied. So for this to work, you need to be willing to move somewhere that you know has a lot of opportunities, you can't just pick a certain area of the country and assume you'll even be able to make a living.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think that by saying x amount of lawyers are successful and x amount of doctors are successful, but x+10000 lawyers graduate from law school and x+2 doctors graduate from med school only proves my point. Medicine provides a much greater guarantee, even if you aren't the top doctor.

Not really. You aren't comparing comparables. If you want to compare the likelihood of success of someone choosing the med versus law path, you can't compare the 3.5/30 average med student to someone with a C+ average's success going into law or business. You have to truncate that latter larger group appropriately to make the analysis.

 

[Playmakur42]

There are alot of intelligent people on this thread making some very good arguments. The reality of the situation is this - The smart, hard working people on this thread are going to be succesful in any endeavor they undertake.

Is business more cyclical than medicine - yes! You may have to change jobs throughout your career, but if you're smart and hard working you'll be fine. (Ex. Real Estate investors have made a killing the last few years. Now certain parts of that industry are slowing down - SO - the smart, hard working business people are moving to something else or other geographic areas)

Is medicine more highly paid (avg salary) than business - yes! But, when you average in all of the years of residency and training, all of sudden - it all equals out!

So, if your main goal is to make money NOW - go business. If your main goal is to have aquired more $ by age 50 - go medicine. And MY advice, 15 hour days doing an enjoyable job leads to more happiness than 5 hour days doing something you hate. Find something you enjoy & don't sweat over a few grand.

 

[deleted87716]

Everyone else knew exactly what the OP was talking about. [Blah, blah, blah.]

Feel better now? 🙄

 

[beetlerum]

There are alot of intelligent people on this thread making some very good arguments. The reality of the situation is this - The smart, hard working people on this thread are going to be succesful in any endeavor they undertake.

Is business more cyclical than medicine - yes! You may have to change jobs throughout your career, but if you're smart and hard working you'll be fine. (Ex. Real Estate investors have made a killing the last few years. Now certain parts of that industry are slowing down - SO - the smart, hard working business people are moving to something else or other geographic areas)

Is medicine more highly paid (avg salary) than business - yes! But, when you average in all of the years of residency and training, all of sudden - it all equals out!

So, if your main goal is to make money NOW - go business. If your main goal is to have aquired more $ by age 50 - go medicine. And MY advice, 15 hour days doing an enjoyable job leads to more happiness than 5 hour days doing something you hate. Find something you enjoy & don't sweat over a few grand.

Business though involves some different skills. Just because you're fairly smart and hardworking doesn't mean you'll succeed. Your example of real estate is a good one. Sales can be very lucrative but you need the right personality for it. So basically there are some people in medicine who could be making a lot more and others who could be making a lot less. But frankly, there are a lot of docs pulling in 200k+ who would never made that in business. It's hard to make 200k in business!

Also, I don't know where this 5 hour day thing comes in. (Actually it's ironic because it's so much easier to work part-time in medicine , after residency, than in business, at least high paying business). Basically, business is hard, it involves its own skills, it's important, and it shouldn't be disparaged, especially by people who have never worked in it at all (which is probably true for many of the posters here).

 

[Sporky]

Here here!!

Physician pay is dramatically decreasing, but none of us should be pursuing or be in the midst of this career for the pesos.

There's lots of information on the aaps website regarding this:
http://www.aapsonline.org/

But in general, the previous poster who said the "golden age" of medical pay was gone was correct.

In my city (Houston), FP physicians who are in traditional (third party payer) practises after 5 years (chart base of 2,500) earn in the vicinity of $150 - 160. Some earn less and some more. In my suburb, there is now a drift to more elective medicine (botox for rich vain women) and these docs earn significantly more (300-500K) because their "clients" are ponying up their credit cards for $1800 bucks every 6-8 weeks.

Opthalmic surgeons who are doing Lasik are experiencing the same "boom" right now.

Something else which is hampering physician pay are relatively new restrictions on secondary income sources for doctors. For example, in many places, FP docs cannot own an Infusion therapy clinic - which used to be a large source for FP's. This is so hypocritical because the senate majority leader - Frist, who is a doctor, owns HCA which is the world's largest health insurer and Medicare's largest biller. (which by the way has paid millions in fines for overbilling, but you don't hear that on nightline).

Bottom line is, if you are doing medicine for money, you must be incredibly smart and terribly foolish at the same time. Law, and from personal experience, business are far more lucrative.

BTW, if young doctors don't get involved politically, we WILL have social medicine here in the U.S. and you will work for the government making 60-80K a year and you will practise where they tell you to practise.

🙂

 

[MJB]

The other side of that coin is that you can't just pick a certain rural area you want to have a practice in and expect that to be possible: in some cases, the market is cornered. I know an OB/GYN whose spouse got their dream job in a rural area, and it's literally impossible for her to open a practice because the community's needs are already fully satisfied. So for this to work, you need to be willing to move somewhere that you know has a lot of opportunities, you can't just pick a certain area of the country and assume you'll even be able to make a living.

That's kind of prevalent in any profession in my opinion. You are right..you have to be a smart decision maker.

The Dentist I'm talking about spent time researching and chose this location out of about 8 opportunities. This could also probably lead to a discussion of what people consider rural.

A lot of SDN folks would consider where I live rural (a city/town of 80K or so)...whereas I consider the small towns (like 4-10K) of KS, MO, NE, IA, etc...rural.

 

[saradoor]

...

BTW, if young doctors don't get involved politically, we WILL have social medicine here in the U.S. and you will work for the government making 60-80K a year and you will practise where they tell you to practise.

🙂

Agree. Just see how our best friends in the UK do: http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/nhs-knowledge_base/data/5340.html

However, even in the UK doctors can opt for private practice and make more. N

 

[saradoor]

That's kind of prevalent in any profession in my opinion. You are right..you have to be a smart decision maker.

The Dentist I'm talking about spent time researching and chose this location out of about 8 opportunities. This could also probably lead to a discussion of what people consider rural.

A lot of SDN folks would consider where I live rural (a city/town of 80K or so)...whereas I consider the small towns (like 4-10K) of KS, MO, NE, IA, etc...rural.

Any town with less than 1 million is rural 😀

 

[MJB]

Any town with less than 1 million is rural 😀

See what I mean. 🙂

 

[barasch]

Are you serious? Doctors in private practice make far more money than most lawyers or businessmen. It may just be a south Florida thing, but from what I've seen, doctors make bank.

Tons of work and high demand from all the retirees in florida, plus medicare funding, makes florida the land of milk and honey for private practice.

 

[Playmakur42]

Business though involves some different skills. Just because you're fairly smart and hardworking doesn't mean you'll succeed. Sales can be very lucrative but you need the right personality for it. But frankly, there are a lot of docs pulling in 200k+ who would never made that in business. It's hard to make 200k in business!

I agree.

 

[beetlerum]

Here here!!

Physician pay is dramatically decreasing, but none of us should be pursuing or be in the midst of this career for the pesos.

There's lots of information on the aaps website regarding this:
http://www.aapsonline.org/

But in general, the previous poster who said the "golden age" of medical pay was gone was correct.

In my city (Houston), FP physicians who are in traditional (third party payer) practises after 5 years (chart base of 2,500) earn in the vicinity of $150 - 160. Some earn less and some more. In my suburb, there is now a drift to more elective medicine (botox for rich vain women) and these docs earn significantly more (300-500K) because their "clients" are ponying up their credit cards for $1800 bucks every 6-8 weeks.

🙂

Could you point a link to the study you're talking about? I just see a link to that same study about the 10% decrease for pcps, 4% for specialists. Of course, this is an advocacy group with an incentive to show large decreases, but it would still be interesting to see their numbers.

 

[worker_bee]

some thoughts from an admittedly inexperienced soon to be ms1...

If someone making 100,000 gets an unexpected $50,000 bonus, they will feel like the richest person in the world... but if someone making $500,000 has $100,000 robbed from them, they will feel poor, even if they're income for the year is still big. So even though specialist doctors are making what most would consider a great income, they still feel poor because of what they have been cheated out of - the claims that have downcoded, denied, or delayed. So though the income looks good, the stress might come from what's taken more than what's given.

Also, some people measure their success not based on what they earn but based on how their earnings stack up to other people's. So being a doc in the 70's when money being made elsewhere might have been lower might have felt better than being a doc now, even if the real decline in income is not that big. The return to being an owner of capital or being a corporate executive is higher now than it has ever been.

Anyway, doctor's incomes are stagnating and perhaps declining, in real terms, but that is true of many professions, if not most. The income gains in our country are and have been for a while concentrated in the top 1% of earners, which means financiers, executives, and the like. People who labor for their living - whether janitors or neurosurgeons - haven't seen a huge pay raise in decades. In my opinion if you want to be a doctor the fact that other people in other industries are earning a lot more than they used to shouldn't stop you.

 

[deleted87716]

Tons of work and high demand from all the retirees in florida, plus medicare funding, makes florida the land of milk and honey for private practice.

Except for the malpractice climate. Florida has some of the highest premiums in the country.