Arachnoiditis

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What are people’s experience with this. Have a few patients with it, severe pain, weird distribution, combo of radicular and back pain. What have other people seen?

Any experience with SCS for it? Doesn’t seem like medications really help at all. Are people doing SCS trials for this before COT?

anyone have any idea what the cause is for these patients? I’m assuming complication of spine surgery or epidural injections.

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Complications after pressing on the sac, cutting the sac, or old school conray myelogram. Neuropathics and SCS. Opiates not as helpful due to neuropathic pain and risk vs benefit.
 
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Wasn’t there a pain guy out west that treated a lot of these folks with high dose opioids and got sent to prison?
 
Scary to put SCS leads in an arachnoiditis pt but it seems to really be the only thing that helps. I've had pretty good luck with it. You can also try methadone if you're comfortable with it.
 
On a slightly different neuropathic note,

What about for patients with syringomyelia? I have two patients that have been difficult to treat...riding through the merry go round of gabalentenoids, tca, snri, alpha 2 agonists, opioids...
 
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I was under the impression SCS is standard of care for severe arachnoiditis pain - however my N of 2 did not want to try it, once someone has “ruined” their spine they are not eager to have anyone else go near it.
 
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I've attempted SCS on two patients. Both had horrible pain on the soles of the feet. I couldn't get coverage on either, so failed trials. This was before higher frequency stimulation. It might be a different story today - or even with DRG stim.
 
SCS is typically only hope for adequate relief.
Prialt rife with side effects.
Not all arachnoiditis is painful.
Psychology is critical to care.
 
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have had roughly 50/50 benefit with SCS, but N of about 8. not quite as good as the radicular failed back patients, but heck of a lot safer than methadone, which really should be a never drug nowadays.
 
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have had roughly 50/50 benefit with SCS, but N of about 8. not quite as good as the radicular failed back patients, but heck of a lot safer than methadone, which really should be a never drug nowadays.

Doing a trial in two weeks on a patient with this diagnosis for the first time. 50/50 is better than most options. I’ll tell him to cross his fingers extra hard.
 
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have had roughly 50/50 benefit with SCS, but N of about 8. not quite as good as the radicular failed back patients, but heck of a lot safer than methadone, which really should be a never drug nowadays.
I guess methadone is not popular here. I think it has a bad rap. It's affordable and works at times. I check QTc every few months and discuss the long half-life issue. Never had an issue with it. Why should it never be used?

I'm aware of the dispropriate effect on opioid-related deaths but there's a time and place.
 
you mean besides it being the #1 prescription opioid with regards to "accidental" overdose and death and the multiple drug interactions?


there are many other medications - nucynta, butrans, heck practically all short acting opioids - that are safer, and NMDA benefit is theoretical without any practical real world applicability that I have seen.
 
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I was under the impression SCS is standard of care for severe arachnoiditis pain - however my N of 2 did not want to try it, once someone has “ruined” their spine they are not eager to have anyone else go near it.
It is tough because have been damaged by procedures. I try to emphasize the test part of SCS.

I've attempted SCS on two patients. Both had horrible pain on the soles of the feet. I couldn't get coverage on either, so failed trials. This was before higher frequency stimulation. It might be a different story today - or even with DRG stim.

Those patients both sound like great candidates for bilateral S1 DRG stim. Good coverage of soles of feet.
 
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you mean besides it being the #1 prescription opioid with regards to "accidental" overdose and death and the multiple drug interactions?


there are many other medications - nucynta, butrans, heck practically all short acting opioids - that are safer, and NMDA benefit is theoretical without any practical real world applicability that I have seen.

Agree with that. Methadone is a never medication for me. I also agree that I never really see a true clinical benefit from these NMDA meds, just theory.
 
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I think, but could be wrong, that accidental OD comes from it being well known in the addiction community. Due to it's long and variable half life, they don't feel it so they use and use and use, until it begins to peak and then it's too late. I don't treat this population with anything other than suboxone.

I don't commonly prescribe methadone but I maintain a few pts on it.
 
Agree with avoiding methadone. I just always struggle with what the end game looks like. As people get older organs don't work as well, risk for pneumonia/infection or other pulmonary issues increase, other medications get added to the mix. Had a guy with rheumatoid that was on moderate doses of methadone doing well until he started to break down. Number of trips to the hospital, some related to polypharmacy that he was tolerating previously. Got switched to suboxone and did much better. I just think there are better options.

Pain doc in town has been working with a compounding pharmacy to make oral ketamine. I think it might be gummies. I am not sure the details but I wonder if this condition may benefit.
 
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Agree with that. Methadone is a never medication for me. I also agree that I never really see a true clinical benefit from these NMDA meds, just theory.

I've seen some patients do very well with levorphanol. Too bad the price got jacked up.
 
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Not one pt on methadone in my clinic.
 
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I have a feeling that those who don’t like methadone haven’t used it very much, but maybe I haven’t used it enough.

I still like it and I’m very glad it is part of our arsenal. However just because I like it doesn’t mean I use it often. In fact, I rarely do. But I believe it has its place and it feels a niche that is hard sometimes to be filled by other Chemicals.
 
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Speaking of arachnoiditis, why do stim leads have expiration dates, and if you buy a lead that "expires" what happens?
 
Sterility of manufacturing. If you get an infection from putting in an expired lead .....
Not malpractice. Criminal.

The companies don't swap them out for you though. You just lose that money.
 
I'm no longer a fan of opiates, however I've seen Methadone do great for neuropathic pain.

Why not butrans/belbuca/Nucynta/levorphanol? Because insurance companies (at least around me) don't want to pay for them. I can usually get the bup products covered, but they aren't as strong as the other ones.
 
I'm no longer a fan of opiates, however I've seen Methadone do great for neuropathic pain.

Why not butrans/belbuca/Nucynta/levorphanol? Because insurance companies (at least around me) don't want to pay for them. I can usually get the bup products covered, but they aren't as strong as the other ones.

levorphanol is a very very old drug that is almost free...this should be the cheapest option of all these listed and has much less if any street value.
 
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Tried several SCS for arachnoiditis- none of them gave significant relief, and some were acutely worse after the trial.
 
I prefer buprenorphine to methadone, but I'll use whatever. We've all got the same tools and I'm not sure I understand why we would avoid using any therapies if all others have failed.

I'm interested to see if DTM is uniquely beneficial for arachnoiditis, but I'm not sure I understand arachnoiditis enough to realistically expect that.
 

.
" Levorphanol was previously manufactured by West-Ward Pharmaceuticals, a subsidiary of Hikma Pharmaceuticals, at a cost of $2.14 per tablet (AWP). West-Ward discontinued levorphanol in 2015. A small U.S. specialty pharmaceutical company, Sentynl Therapeutics, Inc. revived levorphanol shortly thereafter and raised the price to $46.90 per tablet in 2015 (a 2,092% increase). As of April 1, 2018, Sentynl is selling levorphanol for $53.40 per tablet (AWP) and is now only available in a 2 mg generic tablet. According to Sentynl, the higher cost of levorphanol is due to the high cost of manufacturing incurred by a smaller size company and historic low demand for the drug. Low volume drugs like levorphanol demand higher cost for sustainability. "

"
Fast forward to mid-2015 when the recently formed Sentynl Therapeutics, Inc., a small US-Based specialty pharmaceutical company rereleased a “new” levorphanol to the market. It seemed like good news for pain sufferers that tolerated and responded to it well. But things turned sour for many when they learned that the average wholesale price (AWP) of 2mg tablets had changed from $214/100 tablets to $4650/100 tablets, a 2073% increase based on 2015 Red Book pricing.3 This practice has been a concern of Dr. Fudin and several of his colleagues since the new levorphanol resurfaced, and as What the Market Will Bear pointed out in a previous paindr.com blog, numerous companies have heretofore come under fire for increasing the price of orphan drugs that have no generic or therapeutic alternative to treat the intended disease.

But at closer glance and unique to this situation is that unlike the Daraprim (pyrimethamine) debacle and iniquitous behavior of Martin Shkreli outlined in the blog hyperlink above, Levorphanol is not an orphan drug and does have therapeutic alternatives. That paints Sentynl Therapeutics in a very different light compared to the scandalous behavior of Shkreli’s Turing Pharmaceuticals.

Unique to this situation, methadone and levorphanol share similar pharmacology, but levorphanol provides another option for those that cannot tolerate or are not candidates for methadone. And, levorphanol may be safer for a variety of reasons.4 But, when the comparing generic methadone pricing to generic levorphanol in terms of pricing, with this new AWP levied on levorphanol, methadone is $33.16 to $73.84/100 tablets depending on the strengths compared to $4650/100 tablets of levorphanol.3 In today’s healthcare marketplace, clinicians no longer have the luxury of considering just the risk/benefit ration when making therapeutic choices. The cost of therapy and the patient’s insurance coverage and large Pharmacy Benefits Managers are frequent determinants when comparing and selecting drug treatment options
"
 
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@Orin thanks for sharing that. I have prescribed levorphanol to 3-4 patients the last couple years. All have felt the drug was very beneficial and well tolerated.

Looks like this is a generic drug that anyone can manufacture. Nothing stopping us from crowdsourcing an alternative.
 
@Orin thanks for sharing that. I have prescribed levorphanol to 3-4 patients the last couple years. All have felt the drug was very beneficial and well tolerated.

Looks like this is a generic drug that anyone can manufacture. Nothing stopping us from crowdsourcing an alternative.
The FDA will prevent it. I didn’t look into it, but I’m sure with the way the FDA now applies PDUFA fees, They are granting exclusive licensing. That is the current corrupt racket the FDA is running.
 
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Methadone is not typically my first line but it has worked when no other drug has. I like it for hepatic and renal patients also as it has a pretty simple metabolism. With hepatic and renal patients, methadone and fentanyl move higher up on my list.
 
Methadone is not typically my first line but it has worked when no other drug has. I like it for hepatic and renal patients also as it has a pretty simple metabolism. With hepatic and renal patients, methadone and fentanyl move higher up on my list.
that statement is confusing.

methadone is a pretty complicated hepatic metabolism and drug drug interactions are very serious. it is CYP metabolized, but which pathway is unclear.





im sure algos has some pretty good stories about methadone....
 
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that statement is confusing.

methadone is a pretty complicated hepatic metabolism and drug drug interactions are very serious. it is CYP metabolized, but which pathway is unclear.





im sure algos has some pretty good stories about methadone....
Oh man, what'd I step in here with you?

I'm not sure what to tell you and I'm not sure who or what algos is. Anyway, here are my reasons for using it but just to clarify, I have about 2-3 patients on methadone. I don't typically prescribe high doses of any opioid and refer these pts out. My methadone doses are 5mg BID-TID.

- Anecdotally, I have had zero issues and the pt's are managed.
- My board instructor a few years back stated methadone and fentanyl have simple metabolisms, I assume referring to their inactive metabolites.
- I check EKGs and discuss the half-life issue with my patients
-I don't typically treat end-stage organ failure pts
-My pts are well-controlled and have been for several years.. It would be foolish to change this out at this point.

Is my assumption wrong that methadone is disproportionately killing pts because it is well known in the addiction community? Not necessarily used to treat addiction per se, but used to treat pain in the addiction/medicaid community? There seems to be a lot of overlap between these groups and they tend to be probably the most non-compliant groups. I don't see medicaids for pain, only for suboxone and I only treat addiction with suboxone.

Why am I wrong?
 
I would never consider prescribing methadone. I don’t need the risk or the hassle. It’s half-life varies between 12 and 100 hours. It has numerous drug to drug interactions that make it exceptionally dangerous. Therapy to have overdosed without taking any extra medication. It is unlike any other opiate. Good luck with that.
 
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I would never consider prescribing methadone. I don’t need the risk or the hassle. It’s half-life varies between 12 and 100 hours. It has numerous drug to drug interactions that make it exceptionally dangerous. Therapy to have overdosed without taking any extra medication. It is unlike any other opiate. Good luck with that.

Considering that the value of opioids is very minimal in a chronic pain patient, this is a very reasonable approach. Why use the most dangerous of drugs when none of them seem to work anyway on a long term basis?
 
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Oh man, what'd I step in here with you?

I'm not sure what to tell you and I'm not sure who or what algos is. Anyway, here are my reasons for using it but just to clarify, I have about 2-3 patients on methadone. I don't typically prescribe high doses of any opioid and refer these pts out. My methadone doses are 5mg BID-TID.

- Anecdotally, I have had zero issues and the pt's are managed.
- My board instructor a few years back stated methadone and fentanyl have simple metabolisms, I assume referring to their inactive metabolites.
- I check EKGs and discuss the half-life issue with my patients
-I don't typically treat end-stage organ failure pts
-My pts are well-controlled and have been for several years.. It would be foolish to change this out at this point.

Is my assumption wrong that methadone is disproportionately killing pts because it is well known in the addiction community? Not necessarily used to treat addiction per se, but used to treat pain in the addiction/medicaid community? There seems to be a lot of overlap between these groups and they tend to be probably the most non-compliant groups. I don't see medicaids for pain, only for suboxone and I only treat addiction with suboxone.

Why am I wrong?
I think he was referring to your remark stating fentanyl and methadone are great for your renal AND hepatic patients. It's been awhile since I've prescribed any opiates but I think both are great options for renal patients. Not so sure for patients with liver failure though
 
.
" Levorphanol was previously manufactured by West-Ward Pharmaceuticals, a subsidiary of Hikma Pharmaceuticals, at a cost of $2.14 per tablet (AWP). West-Ward discontinued levorphanol in 2015. A small U.S. specialty pharmaceutical company, Sentynl Therapeutics, Inc. revived levorphanol shortly thereafter and raised the price to $46.90 per tablet in 2015 (a 2,092% increase). As of April 1, 2018, Sentynl is selling levorphanol for $53.40 per tablet (AWP) and is now only available in a 2 mg generic tablet. According to Sentynl, the higher cost of levorphanol is due to the high cost of manufacturing incurred by a smaller size company and historic low demand for the drug. Low volume drugs like levorphanol demand higher cost for sustainability. "

"
Fast forward to mid-2015 when the recently formed Sentynl Therapeutics, Inc., a small US-Based specialty pharmaceutical company rereleased a “new” levorphanol to the market. It seemed like good news for pain sufferers that tolerated and responded to it well. But things turned sour for many when they learned that the average wholesale price (AWP) of 2mg tablets had changed from $214/100 tablets to $4650/100 tablets, a 2073% increase based on 2015 Red Book pricing.3 This practice has been a concern of Dr. Fudin and several of his colleagues since the new levorphanol resurfaced, and as What the Market Will Bear pointed out in a previous paindr.com blog, numerous companies have heretofore come under fire for increasing the price of orphan drugs that have no generic or therapeutic alternative to treat the intended disease.

But at closer glance and unique to this situation is that unlike the Daraprim (pyrimethamine) debacle and iniquitous behavior of Martin Shkreli outlined in the blog hyperlink above, Levorphanol is not an orphan drug and does have therapeutic alternatives. That paints Sentynl Therapeutics in a very different light compared to the scandalous behavior of Shkreli’s Turing Pharmaceuticals.

Unique to this situation, methadone and levorphanol share similar pharmacology, but levorphanol provides another option for those that cannot tolerate or are not candidates for methadone. And, levorphanol may be safer for a variety of reasons.4 But, when the comparing generic methadone pricing to generic levorphanol in terms of pricing, with this new AWP levied on levorphanol, methadone is $33.16 to $73.84/100 tablets depending on the strengths compared to $4650/100 tablets of levorphanol.3 In today’s healthcare marketplace, clinicians no longer have the luxury of considering just the risk/benefit ration when making therapeutic choices. The cost of therapy and the patient’s insurance coverage and large Pharmacy Benefits Managers are frequent determinants when comparing and selecting drug treatment options
"

I stand corrected, thank you for the update! I've not prescribed it in many years, but used to like it when standard opioids failed. At that time, it was very cheap.
 
Oh man, what'd I step in here with you?

I'm not sure what to tell you and I'm not sure who or what algos is. Anyway, here are my reasons for using it but just to clarify, I have about 2-3 patients on methadone. I don't typically prescribe high doses of any opioid and refer these pts out. My methadone doses are 5mg BID-TID.

- Anecdotally, I have had zero issues and the pt's are managed.
- My board instructor a few years back stated methadone and fentanyl have simple metabolisms, I assume referring to their inactive metabolites.
- I check EKGs and discuss the half-life issue with my patients
-I don't typically treat end-stage organ failure pts
-My pts are well-controlled and have been for several years.. It would be foolish to change this out at this point.

Is my assumption wrong that methadone is disproportionately killing pts because it is well known in the addiction community? Not necessarily used to treat addiction per se, but used to treat pain in the addiction/medicaid community? There seems to be a lot of overlap between these groups and they tend to be probably the most non-compliant groups. I don't see medicaids for pain, only for suboxone and I only treat addiction with suboxone.

Why am I wrong?

You don't know who Algosdoc is? He is the best amongst us, a wizard. I personally miss him on this board.
 
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I think he was referring to your remark stating fentanyl and methadone are great for your renal AND hepatic patients. It's been awhile since I've prescribed any opiates but I think both are great options for renal patients. Not so sure for patients with liver failure though
I understand. I believe the lack of active metabolites makes it a reasonable option. I don't typically see pts with end-stage organ failure but in mild or moderate cases it seems to be okay.

 
Considering that the value of opioids is very minimal in a chronic pain patient, this is a very reasonable approach. Why use the most dangerous of drugs when none of them seem to work anyway on a long term basis?
The same reason to prescribe any opioid, because the more conservative options have been exhausted. There's a time and place for opioids.
 
there is almost no reason to start opioids for the chronic nonmalignant non-palliative care patient.

Legacy patients - and those who are in the palliative care phase of course - are a different matter. your patients that have been on it for years are those Legacy patients, and there is potential harm towards stopping their therapy (although there is also potential benefit...)



methadone does not have a simple metabolism. its metabolism is through the hepatic CYP pathway, and there is significant interperson variability with metabolism, along with significant multiple serious potential drug interactions - and not just the obvious ones with sedative hypnotics. don't use methadone unless you are experienced with methadone.

for patients with significant hepatic disease, all starting doses should be reduced significantly, and more intense more frequent monitoring needs to be done for side effects.

fentanyl is not unreasonable for ESRD and may be the "best" drug for ESLD, but that is based more on consensus opinion than data.
 
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there is almost no reason to start opioids for the chronic nonmalignant non-palliative care patient.

Legacy patients - and those who are in the palliative care phase of course - are a different matter. your patients that have been on it for years are those Legacy patients, and there is potential harm towards stopping their therapy (although there is also potential benefit...)



methadone does not have a simple metabolism. its metabolism is through the hepatic CYP pathway, and there is significant interperson variability with metabolism, along with significant multiple serious potential drug interactions - and not just the obvious ones with sedative hypnotics. don't use methadone unless you are experienced with methadone.

for patients with significant hepatic disease, all starting doses should be reduced significantly, and more intense more frequent monitoring needs to be done for side effects.

fentanyl is not unreasonable for ESRD and may be the "best" drug for ESLD, but that is based more on consensus opinion than data.
Agree and disagree. It's rare that I would start opioids but something I've had a difficult time understanding is why is cancer pain singled out. Not all cancer causes pain and not all pain comes from cancer. What about multiple trauma pts, burn pts, spinal cord injury pts? Is it because it's thought that death is always lurking with cancer pts.

I can't agree with these all or none statements. I have plenty of patients who require no increases on opioids and maintain productive lives. I have many patients who would not be able to maintain their jobs with pain medication. I really don't want my patients self-treating their pain.
 
cancer pain and end of life pain is singled out because we have more concern about immediate quality of life and the limitations towards life expectancy with cancer pain. this is not pertinent towards inpatient treatment - it is about the chronic pain patient. and if a patient is expected to die soon from their underlying condition, aren't they a palliative care patient?

------------------------------------

as I stated, if you have a Legacy patient who is fully functional, then stopping their medications may not be the correct treatment algorithm. but there is almost no data or clinical information to suggest that chronic opioid treatment improves functionality or quality of life.

--------------------------------------

fwiw, don't deceive yourself regarding the nobleness of prescribing them opioids:

most are still self-treating their pain. even while taking your opioids.
 
as I stated, if you have a Legacy patient who is fully functional, then stopping their medications may not be the correct treatment algorithm. but there is almost no data or clinical information to suggest that chronic opioid treatment improves functionality or quality of life.

So I guess we agree to some degree. So, there is a place for opioids in some circumstances. You know when to use them from your experience and I know when to use them from mine.

For those who say don't prescribe opioids, I always ask them what will you offer the patients for treatment when all else has failed? It's easy to tell someone not to do something but then you should offer the next step. Many patients won't sit there suffering in pain.

fwiw, don't deceive yourself regarding the nobleness of prescribing them opioids:

most are still self-treating their pain. even while taking your opioids.

Thanks for the patronizing advice but I think I'll pass. I'm doing this now for about 10 years and not as naive as this post would suggest.
 
So I guess we agree to some degree. So, there is a place for opioids in some circumstances. You know when to use them from your experience and I know when to use them from mine.

For those who say don't prescribe opioids, I always ask them what will you offer the patients for treatment when all else has failed? It's easy to tell someone not to do something but then you should offer the next step. Many patients won't sit there suffering in pain.



Thanks for the patronizing advice but I think I'll pass. I'm doing this now for about 10 years and not as naive as this post would suggest.
then you realize that many patients self-medicate while taking opioids including methadone....

-------------------
the lack of alternatives is a common limitation, but falling back on opioids is not the correct answer. your answer seems to suggest that someone who has failed everything is automatically a candidate for a narcotic.

these make up the vast majority of my referrals.

what I tell them is that the treatment is worse than the disease, and while chronic pain could cause quality of life concerns and functional limitations, opioids will cause both, and will lead to multiple iatrogenic effects. it is not in their best interest to be put on narcotics for the rest of their lives.


i tell them people can have good quality of lives while having chronic pain. pain is a subjective experience. that's what we need to focus on, and work on.

some times the best thing to do is "nothing". at least nothing medical or interventional.


funny thing, and I know you are thinking about this - but the vast majority of people come back for follow ups.

except for the addicts.
 
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