are 3-year programs more competitive than 4-year programs?

[tdod]

I want to apply only to 3 year programs but worried this might hurt my chances.


Thanks!

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[AlmostAnMD]

three year programs give you an additional quarter million dollars as an attending

four year programs are another year of slave labor

If I started my own residency I'd be PD of a 5 year program to keep slave labor around even longer.

People would still, definitely, apply

I'm sure some people will defend the "academics" of a 4 year program, but I'll never phrase it outside of quotation marks.

I don't know if, strictly speaking, 4 year programs are more "competitive", some places like cinci are competitive but coincidentally 4 years.

 

[DeadCactus]

A 4 year program inherently has to be competitive enough to survive even though they want an extra year. This generally means programs in desirable locations (California, Colorado, New York City) and/or programs with strong reputations (Denver, USC, Cincinnati). There are far more 3 year programs and far more of them who are less competitive due to location or academic reputation. There are also a ton of really strong and competitive 3 year programs. I would not worry about only applying to 3 year programs.

I wouldn't let a 4 year program turn you off if the location is important to you or you just really love the program but I would default to a 3 year program. An extra year in training or $250k in income isn't going to change your lifestyle or happiness. An extra year of training isn't going to make or break your abilities as a physician or your career. But 3 years in a place you hate vs 4 years in a place you love can damage people for a long time.

Just to head it off, I picked a small sample of programs and locations. I'm not trying to offend anyone because I didn't list a program or location they find desirable or including one they think is overrated.

 

[Apollyon]

This guy should have been more forthcoming. He posted elsewhere that his wife is a year behind him in med school. I suspect that his real question is if there's a stigma or downside to doing 4 years, as, it seems, the quarter million is OK, if he's with his wife. Maybe I'm off base, but, this is how it looks from the cheap seats.

 

[Tenk]

For whatever reason the four year programs are usually very competitive. I originally wanted to go to a 4 year program because it was in my home town. Oh I am so thankful I did not match there and matched to a 3 year instead. In hindsight I wouldn’t have even ranked any 4 year programs.

 

[Fox800]

I'm going to open a five-year program in Denver, just to compete with DH. Won't have any problems filling.

 

[tdod]

This guy should have been more forthcoming. He posted elsewhere that his wife is a year behind him in med school. I suspect that his real question is if there's a stigma or downside to doing 4 years, as, it seems, the quarter million is OK, if he's with his wife. Maybe I'm off base, but, this is how it looks from the cheap seats.

Not sure what you are talking about. I posted that question "elsewhere" because the two questions are distinct and unrelated, and each belongs in a separate sub-forum.

 

[Apollyon]

Not sure what you are talking about. I posted that question "elsewhere" because the two questions are distinct and unrelated, and each belongs in a separate sub-forum.

Ok, dude. Even a cursory glance would suggest the question. To say that they are "unrelated" doesn't pass muster. But, good luck!

 

[thegenius]

This guy should have been more forthcoming. He posted elsewhere that his wife is a year behind him in med school. I suspect that his real question is if there's a stigma or downside to doing 4 years, as, it seems, the quarter million is OK, if he's with his wife. Maybe I'm off base, but, this is how it looks from the cheap seats.

Hard to see the action from up there. But you can be a bit more obnoxious like yell cheap, tawdry one-liner obscenities and probably won't bother too many other people.

 

[thegenius]

For whatever reason the four year programs are usually very competitive. I originally wanted to go to a 4 year program because it was in my home town. Oh I am so thankful I did not match there and matched to a 3 year instead. In hindsight I wouldn’t have even ranked any 4 year programs.

Probably because they are big name university programs that may, or may not, be any better than your run-of-the-mill community programs.

These big ones may not be any better, but they are not bad.

 

[alpinism]

So I was talking to a Highland grad recently and was surprised to find out they do more than 4 years of residency.

Apparently with their rotation scheduling they end up doing an extra month don't graduate till the end of July.

 

[Fox800]

Ha, surprised USACS hasn’t don’t this yet. Psst... don’t give them any ideas.

5 years and then you go to work for USACS at $100 per hour and you have to fund the recruiter's 401(k) match. But you have oWnErShIp*.



*shares in USACS that no one knows the value of, and you cannot redeem unless USACS says it's okay. This ACTUALLY HAPPENED to one of my close mentors that works for USACS in the Austin area.

 

[Rekt]

For whatever reason the four year programs are usually very competitive. I originally wanted to go to a 4 year program because it was in my home town. Oh I am so thankful I did not match there and matched to a 3 year instead. In hindsight I wouldn’t have even ranked any 4 year programs.

There's been a decent amount of new very subpar programs that are four years including prior AOA programs that I would stay very far away from. But I'd agree if it's a university established program they tend to be competitive. Probably half and half because of of location and name and not superior training.

 

[NYEMMED]

5 years and then you go to work for USACS at $100 per hour and you have to fund the recruiter's 401(k) match. But you have oWnErShIp*.



*shares in USACS that no one knows the value of, and you cannot redeem unless USACS says it's okay. This ACTUALLY HAPPENED to one of my close mentors that works for USACS in the Austin area.

It happens all the time with USACS.
If you ever have to leave the company for any reason you cannot sell the fake shares, you cannot trade in the fake shares. They will tell you the fake shares have no value when you leave. But you paid about 71k in "taxes" to receive the fake shares, and this is mandatory to pay at the end of your second year with them or they take it from your paycheck each month for 12 months.

 

[Tenk]

three year programs give you an additional quarter million dollars as an attending

four year programs are another year of slave labor

If I started my own residency I'd be PD of a 5 year program to keep slave labor around even longer.

People would still, definitely, apply

I'm sure some people will defend the "academics" of a 4 year program, but I'll never phrase it outside of quotation marks.

I don't know if, strictly speaking, 4 year programs are more "competitive", some places like cinci are competitive but coincidentally 4 years.

I’m pretty sure the people that would apply to a five year program would make you want to die.

 

[Mushdoc]

What does USACS actually say about selling/redeeming the shares? Is their position that at some point in the future you will be able to sell them, but just not right now? I'm sure every year there are people leaving USACS or retiring. What are these people doing - are they just holding on to them? Does anyone have any firsthand knowledge?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I want to apply only to 3 year programs but worried this might hurt my chances.


Thanks!

Four year programs are typically more competitive to get into. Not because applicants want to do four years, surveys of applicants clearly show that they prefer three over four years of training (duh). However, many institutions that are giant name academic centers or that are in very desirable locations, they know that they are going to be very competitive no matter what they do, and can easily get away adding a fourth year to the residency because there will still be a line of students willing to apply there no matter what.

Its not the 4th year that draws the students in, its the location or prestige of the institution.

 

[TheSingularity]

I went to a "prestigious" 4 year program.

Despite getting fantastic training, the 4th year was completely unnecessary. I don't care what anyone says. The "feels" isn't justification for a 4th year.

You wanna be a slave that makes less than the midlevels at your ED that you're running circles around? Go to a 4 year program.

 

[Waterlover]

I'm so glad I'm at a 3 year program lol

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I went to a "prestigious" 4 year program.

Despite getting fantastic training, the 4th year was completely unnecessary. I don't care what anyone says. The "feels" isn't justification for a 4th year.

You wanna be a slave that makes less than the midlevels at your ED that you're running circles around? Go to a 4 year program.

I've never understood it tbh. Do other fields do this? I don't see 4 year IM programs, 6 year surgery programs, etc. IDK why there isn't a set standard for EM.

 

[Apollyon]

I've never understood it tbh. Do other fields do this? I don't see 4 year IM programs, 6 year surgery programs, etc. IDK why there isn't a set standard for EM.

Well, it's not a clear parallel, but your big name surgery programs (right off the top of my head, UMich, Duke, Penn, although MANY others) do 7 years of surgery, but 2 are research, while ABS says 5 years. It goes 2 clin, 2 research, 3 clin. For example, that is why doing CTSx at Duke was the "Decade with Dave" (Sabiston) (now the "Decade at Duke"), because they did the 3 years for CTSx (again, 1 research year), while only 2 are required for ABS.

 

[Epinephreus]

Very few people are answering this persons question. And some of you are downright creepy stalkers.

I think the competitiveness of the program is inherent to location and academic prestige more than anything else. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a preference to three year programs amongst programs in the same city that both have good reputations (ex. U Chicago vs NW)

FWIW, my residency is a 4 yr academic center in an attractive city. I love my program and the training, but I wish it was only three years.

 

[DrDrummer]

The answer to your question is no. Four year programs tend to be more competitive than three year programs. You will not hurt your chances by applying only to three year programs, as long as you apply to a sufficiency quantity of them, which depends on your application. You should discuss this with your advisors/mentors, and if you don't have one of those, try to get some suggestions on that from people like gamerEMdoc or others in the know.

 

[SamtheWise]

I want to see a big name program in a desirable city switch to 5 years. Guarantee you if LA County suddenly became 5 years, Harbor, denver, highlands would follow suit and suddenly we'd be arguing 4 vs 5. In 15 years Hennepin would be the only hold out 9 year EM residency in the arms race to see who can have the longest program.

 

[southerndoc]

The only people who can truly give you an opinion of worth to the fourth year are people who have completed a 4-year residency or who are attendings at a 4-year residency.

 

[emememem]

I am a 4yr grad from a good academic program. If you want to go into academics, four years will give you a huge leg up both in networking to other big-name academic institutions as well as CV-building opportunities. If you want to go into the community like I did, the extra year to run a room and gain finesse may slightly ease your transition but not by $300k.

 

[Fox800]

I am a 4yr grad from a good academic program. If you want to go into academics, four years will give you a huge leg up both in networking to other big-name academic institutions as well as CV-building opportunities. If you want to go into the community like I did, the extra year to run a room and gain finesse may slightly ease your transition but not by $300k.

3 year program + a 1 year fellowship. Done.