Are acceptances for minorities really that skewed?

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Lel SDN. If you want to maintain the medical hierarchy on these forums, at least send your best. Good weekend all, I've had enough internets for the day.
 
sat0ri said:
Right there is some cognitive dissonance. If someone asked me, is this a good thing?, I'd probably say it's for the best. If someone asked me why, like a rigorous philosophical why, If don't think I could explain it to them. I a little Asian child came up to me and asked me why he has to work so much harder, I still don't think I could explain it to him. I'm more Kantian in my ethics, so I might be asking the wrong person then, but I don't know how I could tell him that. Like if a black child and a asian child where in the room, idk how I could explain those infamous SDN graphs. That said, I love showing them to my distraught URM friends when they think they might not have the stats to get in.

"never, ever" I see what you're saying, but I'm jumping off the train at this point. Everything else is fine, but are you saying, in this absolutist's hypothetical, that even when all the hospitals are booked in the 'gentrified' areas, and the hospitals in the "Hartford" (idk where that is.. embarassing) are vacant of doctors, and there's doctors with no jobs, they would not go work in the rougher parts? No way. Btw whats FMG?

Since you are well-read on this, is there any remark on why the URM goes to those areas? Is it possible it is because the other areas are so competitive? I mean, of course you'll say no, but is there any way to show that it is by choice, not circumstance? Sorry, it might sound insensitive, but it reminds me of when you don't get into a good school you say I'm going to this other school because it more aligns with my mission. Like maybe, but there's always that doubt I guess.
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I explained the why earlier. It's a cultural thing. Example: for a black guy to move into a white neighborhood, he essentially has to shed 90% of his culture and "act white" or live in relative social isolation. Most people aren't so willing to sacrifice so much of themselves and who they are just for a nicer neighborhood and better schools. AA culture and mainstream caucasian culture are very different. Go live in a black neighborhood for a few weeks if you want to know what I'm talking about, it's hard to explain if you haven't lived it. And physician saturation wouldn't occur for decades, in reference to your other scenario. Dare I say many ORMs would rather leave the profession of medicine than make low wages seeing patients in dangerous neighborhoods. Start a poll if you want to see the answers to that one.
 
MDforMee said:
Interesting. Thanks for this tidbit. Yeah, I'm from the country... I had cows, pigs, chickens, and lived on a lot of land (15 acres) in rural Northern California from 3-18. I'm white, too. Corn pone. It's not a lie, either. I have a picture of me as a little kid in a cowboy outfit riding on a sheep, and I went to community colleges in BFE, so I've got transcriptual evidence, lol.

I'm definitely going back to rural Northern California for primary care.
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Looks like your app needed more than a little boost. You also probably would have had a better chance if you applied widely out of state.
 
Espadaleader said:
Asians are the only overrepresented group as far as race goes. All other groups (Whites, Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans are underrepresented). Why the group with the greatest representation in medical school is the loudest in crying discrimination is beyond me.

https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/Diversity in Medical Education_Facts and Figures 2012.pdf

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
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because they actually are being discriminated against.....running faster than everyone doesn't mean the olympics giving them a head start is fair
 
sb247 said:
because they actually are being discriminated against.....running faster than everyone doesn't mean the olympics giving them a head start is fair
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How? There are three times the number of Asian matriculants than Black matriculants (with Affirmative Action). Even Whites are significantly underrepresented in medicine in comparison to Asians. How is this group being discriminated against in medical admissions?
 
Mad Jack said:
Looks like your app needed more than a little boost. You also probably would have had a better chance if you applied widely out of state.
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Thanks again. I haven't applied yet, though... my app list is long and distinguished (40)... and mostly out of state at low and mid tier schools.
 
Mad Jack said:
I explained the why earlier. It's a cultural thing. Example: for a black guy to move into a white neighborhood, he essentially has to shed 90% of his culture and "act white" or live in relative social isolation. Most people aren't so willing to sacrifice so much of themselves and who they are just for a nicer neighborhood and better schools. AA culture and mainstream caucasian culture are very different. Go live in a black neighborhood for a few weeks if you want to know what I'm talking about, it's hard to explain if you haven't lived it. And physician saturation wouldn't occur for decades, in reference to your other scenario. Dare I say many ORMs would rather leave the profession of medicine than make low wages seeing patients in dangerous neighborhoods. Start a poll if you want to see the answers to that one.
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Hm that's sort of intangible (the parts about culture) and I do have thoughts on it, but thoughts that would be easier expressed in person and painstaking to type. (In reference to that scenario, I mentioned it because you said never ever, which can't be right because there are whites and asians working in places like that now. But the general trend in where different peoples tend go is understood and I see that there's data behind it). I think I can accept it, Afrimative Action, so long as is it based off outcomes of where (and in what communities) physicians tend to practice in, because this is not based on race but your demonstrated commitment. If someone got in (or didn't) because of their skin color all other things being equal, I think that would be wrong, but I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with that (I think?)
 
Espadaleader said:
How? There are three times the number of Asian matriculants than Black matriculants (with Affirmative Action). Even Whites are significantly underrepresented in medicine in comparison to Asians. How is this group being discriminated against in medical admissions?
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there is more of them because they are performing better in the two big criteria than everyone else (gpa/mcat). if a black applicant changed nothing about their app but their race and became asian it destroys their odds of acceptance.....that's racial discrimination. The fact that a lot of asian applicants are just working hard enough to clear a higher hurdle than the rest of us doesn't change that they are getting discriminated against.
 
sb247 said:
there is more of them because they are performing better in the two big criteria than everyone else (gpa/mcat). if a black applicant changed nothing about their app but their race and became asian it destroys their odds of acceptance.....that's racial discrimination. The fact that a lot of asian applicants are just working hard enough to clear a higher hurdle than the rest of us doesn't change that they are getting discriminated against.
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I've talked about this in the past on this forum, and I've done a lot of research on the issue, too, so don't take this the wrong way; but, if medical schools are charged with increasing URM enrollment, then ORM candidates have to get the axe.

It's magical thinking to believe that promoting diversity won't affect ORM students when there are limited spaces available in medical schools. Whites aren't discriminating against Asians is all I'm saying.
 
sb247 said:
there is more of them because they are performing better in the two big criteria than everyone else (gpa/mcat). if a black applicant changed nothing about their app but their race and became asian it destroys their odds of acceptance.....that's racial discrimination. The fact that a lot of asian applicants are just working hard enough to clear a higher hurdle than the rest of us doesn't change that they are getting discriminated against.
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There are three-fold the number of Asian applicants to Black and three time the matriculants. Listen, If an Asian is rejected, chances are they lost their seat to another Asian or White person. 75% of all applicants/matriculants are Asian/White.
 
Espadaleader said:
There are three-fold the number of Asian applicants to Black and three time the matriculants. Listen, If an Asian is rejected, chances are they lost their seat to another Asian or White person. 75% of all applicants/matriculants are Asian/White.
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Sure those are the odds, but losing your seat to someone with higher stats than you is pretty reasonable, which is likely the case for the Asian/White student seating in your seat. So the discussion isn't really about that
 
Espadaleader said:
There are three-fold the number of Asian applicants to Black and three time the matriculants. Listen, If an Asian is rejected, chances are they lost their seat to another Asian or White person. 75% of all applicants/matriculants are Asian/White.
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your point that the benefactors of racial discrimination in the process (URM) are less numerous than those slighted by it (everyone else) doesn't mean it isn't happening.

also...what satori said above
 
MDforMee said:
Thanks again. I haven't applied yet, though... my app list is long and distinguished (40)... and mostly out of state at low and mid tier schools.
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Oh, then you've got no reason to complain really, carry on. I forgot you had low stats and hadn't applied yet, your level of butthurt just seemed too high for someone that had not yet been on the wrong side of a bad cycle.
 
sat0ri said:
Hm that's sort of intangible (the parts about culture) and I do have thoughts on it, but thoughts that would be easier expressed in person and painstaking to type. (In reference to that scenario, I mentioned it because you said never ever, which can't be right because there are whites and asians working in places like that now. But the general trend in where different peoples tend go is understood and I see that there's data behind it). I think I can accept it, Afrimative Action, so long as is it based off outcomes of where (and in what communities) physicians tend to practice in, because this is not based on race but your demonstrated commitment. If someone got in (or didn't) because of their skin color all other things being equal, I think that would be wrong, but I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with that (I think?)
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I said many would never ever do it if it were their only option. Not all of them. Some either are that desperate, crazy altruistic, grew up in the area, or just love medicine that much. And I agree about making decisions based on the color of a person's skin being wrong. African American and Hispanic aren't skin colors though- they're cultures- so all's far to me.
 
NontradCA said:
The Republican base is completely ignorant. I'm not talking about politicians, they put on a face and lie to the public. I'm talking about the idiots who eat that **** up.
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The Democratic base is just as ignorant if not more so. Just depends what type of ignorant you prefer. Rural white or urban black/hispanic.
 
NontradCA said:
NPs are taking advantage of a system that physicians take advantage of. The only difference is that nurses are smart enough to band together to have powerful lobbies. Physicians spend too much time worrying about their own tails, that they do not have any power collectively.
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Oh, you forgot the constant cutting each other down by fighting over pieces of the specialty pie! They're not just covering their own butts, they're actively trying to send the hate to their colleagues in many cases.
 
Wilf said:
The Democratic base is just as ignorant if not more so. Just depends what type of ignorant you prefer. Rural white or urban black/hispanic.
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Considering that the majority of votes from each side is white your comment is:

A)racist
B)ignorant

Pick one. Or both.

Edit, probably the most ironic post I've seen on SDN. Thanks for proving my point man.

Damn, and your a resident? SDN. You're making me lose faith in my future profession with these replies.
 
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sat0ri said:
Sure those are the odds, but losing your seat to someone with higher stats than you is pretty reasonable, which is likely the case for the Asian/White student seating in your seat. So the discussion isn't really about that
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I see what you are saying but for the record they lose their seats to Asian/white students with lower stats too... not all white and Asian students at med schools have above average numbers. It's just easier to complain about the African American, Hispanic, or Native American student they assume got in because of their ethnicity. Take this poster's situation below:
deanthedream17 said:
Case and point, I was talking to a black girl in my class the other day and I noticed medical school apparel she was wearing of a school I am on a waitlist for. I asked if she will be attending and she said no, but she was accepted. I said "oh, well where are you going" and she proceeded to name a few top and mid tier schools she had been accepted to, but is struggling to decide between. I said wow you must really have outstanding grades and MCATs. Turns out, they were below mine and I can't get into one school.
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Would it make it any better if that poster found out that an ORM student in his class with lower stats got accepted to every school that rejected him or waitlisted him? Chances are there were some ORM students that were accepted to the same schools with stats lower than him. ORM's do not just lose their seats to URM's with lower stats the lose their seats to ORM's with lower stats too. They just don't question it or sign on to SDN to complain about it.
 
Mad Jack said:
I said many would never ever do it if it were their only option. Not all of them. Some either are that desperate, crazy altruistic, grew up in the area, or just love medicine that much. And I agree about making decisions based on the color of a person's skin being wrong. African American and Hispanic aren't skin colors though- they're cultures- so all's far to me.
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"Supply and demand will never, ever push a white or Asian doc (unless they're a FMG- FMGs are the most prolific providers of underserved care in the country) into the North End of Hartford." I'm confused what you meant by never ever.

Ok so then a person could be black but not part of the African American community or really part of that culture. And I could be white come from a really drug infested town. Do adcoms control for this, or do they see checking the race box all the same, now matter how privileged someone might be who's checking it? You could come from a affluent family, get a superior education, would they still get the race bump? (Sorry I use race and ethnicity interchangbly, I don't know the difference)

Aside from the ethical leap, I think this logistically leap in how effective something in the next but less serious concern
 
Mr Interesting said:
I see what you are saying but for the record they lose their seats to Asian/white students with lower stats too... not all white and Asian students at med schools have above average numbers. It's just easier to complain about the African American, Hispanic, or Native American student they assume got in because of their ethnicity. Take this poster's situation below:

Would it make it any better if that poster found out that an ORM student in his class with lower stats got accepted to every school that rejected him or waitlisted him? Chances are there were some ORM students that were accepted to the same schools with stats lower than him. ORM's do not just lose their seats to URM's with lower stats the lose their seats to ORM's with lower stats too. They just don't question it or sign on to SDN to complain about it.
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Sure, but on average this is not the trend. Sure it happens but not as much. The ORM's that are accepted will in general have higher stats with a few exceptions, and the URM's will on average have lower--there's exception to both but those exceptions are not the trend. Not to mention it is a systematic "bump" that is given. It's not like the AMSA is quiet about it. People get upset that someone is getting a "bump" because of their skin color or race or whatever. And people complain all the time about how life's not fair because they had a job couldn't study as much etc. I think it's a bit different here though, because this isn't just "life" not being fair, this is a deliberate and systematic effort, and the rational can be a bit confusing at first. For instance, I have an Indian friend, great grades good MCAT, who didn't get in. If he was a different race, he probably would have. There might be good reason for this and all, but I can definitely imagine how it feels to have to go through another cycle with otherwise far above average stats.

Personally, as a white person, I probably get a little bump too. The averages for Asians are higher and with the volume that apply, so I probably need a slightly less GPA/MCAT combo than I would otherwise. That doesn't mean I can't empathize with the Asians who get hit the hardest though.
 
sat0ri said:
"Supply and demand will never, ever push a white or Asian doc (unless they're a FMG- FMGs are the most prolific providers of underserved care in the country) into the North End of Hartford." I'm confused what you meant by never ever.

Ok so then a person could be black but not part of the African American community or really part of that culture. And I could be white come from a really drug infested town. Do adcoms control for this, or do they see checking the race box all the same, now matter how privileged someone might be who's checking it? You could come from a affluent family, get a superior education, would they still get the race bump? (Sorry I use race and ethnicity interchangbly, I don't know the difference)

Aside from the ethical leap, I think this logistically leap in how effective something in the next but less serious concern
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What are you saying? I'm rich and white, so what; I still worked hard. Why should someone who grew up poor get some sort of advantage.

Class warfare!
 
NontradCA said:
What are you saying? I'm rich and white, so what; I still worked hard. Why should someone who grew up poor get some sort of advantage.

Class warfare!
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Huh?
 
sat0ri said:
Huh?
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Ok I was trying to figure out why race is being factored in. It was said that it has nothing to do with skin color, then I was trying to figure out what is it? SES seems like the more reasonable thing, but that was in the context if we are not in an egalitarian system where all things are equal. I think you're taking me out of context.

I'm still a bit confused, and since we don't seem to be in the business of making arguments but rather yelling slogans across picket lines, how is it not class warfare against the poor to ignore limited access to education and family support? Would it be elitist to only let those with the money and access to opportunity? Doesn't this discriminate against the poor?

@NontradCA
 
sb247 said:
there were some studies done on the correlation of gpa/mcat to eventual step1 or comlex scores and graduation rates......I saw them posted in one of the other discussions about this topic and like dermvisor seems to be saying, they weren't all strong correlations to success in med school although I seem to remember that the bio section of mcat was a strong correlation
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95th percentile on the bio-section....feeling good right now 🙂
 
sat0ri said:
"Supply and demand will never, ever push a white or Asian doc (unless they're a FMG- FMGs are the most prolific providers of underserved care in the country) into the North End of Hartford." I'm confused what you meant by never ever.

Ok so then a person could be black but not part of the African American community or really part of that culture. And I could be white come from a really drug infested town. Do adcoms control for this, or do they see checking the race box all the same, now matter how privileged someone might be who's checking it? You could come from a affluent family, get a superior education, would they still get the race bump? (Sorry I use race and ethnicity interchangbly, I don't know the difference)

Aside from the ethical leap, I think this logistically leap in how effective something in the next but less serious concern
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Oh that was particular to the North End, not disadvantaged communities in general. I stand by that statement- there's white docs that go in for a couple hours here and there, but no one has a practice there. It would literally be suicide, there's no way you would make it a year without being gunned down and robbed. There's streets there that the police won't even touch. As to other URM communities, I stated "Dare I say many ORMs would rather leave the profession of medicine than make low wages seeing patients in dangerous neighborhoods. Start a poll if you want to see the answers to that one." And they do give whites that grew up in such areas/socioeconomic situations a boost, it's called educationally or socioeconomically disadvantaged and it's part of the application. You get to add a whole extra essay section for it, and it certainly matters for admission.
 
sat0ri said:
Ok I was trying to figure out why race is being factored in. It was said that it has nothing to do with skin color, then I was trying to figure out what is it? SES seems like the more reasonable thing, but that was in the context if we are not in an egalitarian system where all things are equal. I think you're taking me out of context.

I'm still a bit confused, and since we don't seem to be in the business of making arguments but rather yelling slogans across picket lines, how is it not class warfare against the poor to ignore limited access to education and family support? Would it be elitist to only let those with the money and access to opportunity? Doesn't this discriminate against the poor?

@NontradCA
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Lol what? How is that discrimination against the poor? If the poor got a boost on their app, and get in with higher numbers than a person coming from wealth, it is obviously discrimination against the person with more money.
 
Mad Jack said:
Oh that was particular to the North End, not disadvantaged communities in general. I stand by that statement- there's white docs that go in for a couple hours here and there, but no one has a practice there. It would literally be suicide, there's no way you would make it a year without being gunned down and robbed. There's streets there that the police won't even touch. As to other URM communities, I stated "Dare I say many ORMs would rather leave the profession of medicine than make low wages seeing patients in dangerous neighborhoods. Start a poll if you want to see the answers to that one." And they do give whites that grew up in such areas/socioeconomic situations a boost, it's called educationally or socioeconomically disadvantaged and it's part of the application. You get to add a whole extra essay section for it, and it certainly matters for admission.
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Ah I see. Like I said originally I wasn't familiar with Bratford I think it was.

I'm familar with that. But what I'm wondering is, if your AA and grew up in an affluent family, with superior education, and in a gentrified town, do you get the boost? You said it is not based on skin-color, so I'm trying figure out what is. SES seems like the reasonable explanation. But if all those things are controlled for (which I'm attempting to do with my hypothetical) and they still get a boost, then it does seem like it is in fact skin color that is making the difference.
 
@NontradCA I think this is to reflect the fact that it was much harder to get those same numbers as a poor person. That is to say, level the playing field, which is a colloquialism to say "make it fair". You think this is unfair? What are your thoughts? Why?
 
sat0ri said:
Ah I see. Like I said originally I wasn't familiar with Bratford I think it was.

I'm familar with that. But what I'm wondering is, if your AA and grew up in an affluent family, with superior education, and in a gentrified town, do you get the boost? You said it is not based on skin-color, so I'm trying figure out what is. SES seems like the reasonable explanation. But if all those things are controlled for (which I'm attempting to do with my hypothetical) and they still get a boost, then it does seem like it is in fact skin color that is making the difference.
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You already answered your own question.
 
NontradCA said:
Did you get it yet?
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I think this is to reflect the fact that it was much harder to get those same numbers as a poor person. That is to say, level the playing field, which is a colloquialism to say "make it fair". You think this is unfair? What are your thoughts? Why?
 
BamaNicole said:
I still think its funny that people are crying about affirmative action in med school admissions. You'd think that schools had quotas to fill....which is not true.
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They're pretty explicit they are seeking diversity though--is it not splitting hairs to say "quotas" vs. "seeking diversity"?
 
sat0ri said:
I think this is to reflect the fact that it was much harder to get those same numbers as a poor person. That is to say, level the playing field, which is a colloquialism to say "make it fair". You think this is unfair? What are your thoughts? Why?
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Exsqueeze me? I don't fully comprehend this. Are you trying to say that we should level the playing field?
 
sat0ri said:
Ah I see. Like I said originally I wasn't familiar with Bratford I think it was.

I'm familar with that. But what I'm wondering is, if your AA and grew up in an affluent family, with superior education, and in a gentrified town, do you get the boost? You said it is not based on skin-color, so I'm trying figure out what is. SES seems like the reasonable explanation. But if all those things are controlled for (which I'm attempting to do with my hypothetical) and they still get a boost, then it does seem like it is in fact skin color that is making the difference.
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Too complicated for me to address before I leave work. Sufficed to say, I knew a kid that fit that category and had decent stats as an AA, and he didn't get into a school. I mean, AAs as a whole still have a lower percentage acceptance rate than whites or Asians, despite all the complaining about them getting a free pass. So everything factors in, not just their skin color. More than 60% of them don't make the cut, which is an incredibly low number accepted overall considering that so few apply to begin with.
 
NontradCA said:
Exsqueeze me? I don't fully comprehend this. Are you trying to say that we should level the playing field?
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Yes I think so. I guess I buy into Rawlsian ethics.
 
sat0ri said:
Yes I think so. I guess I buy into Rawlsian ethics.
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The irony.

Btw I'm black.

Btw I'm not rich.

Btw you're a hypocrite.

Btw I set your ass up.

tumblr_llg81rYTI61qdasbeo1_500.gif
 
sat0ri said:
Ah I see. Like I said originally I wasn't familiar with Bratford I think it was.
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It was Hartford. I lived in CT for many years. Hartford, New Haven, and Bridgeport are three of the 25 most dangerous in America. The North End is the sort of place you should never, ever go to at night if you're white and don't enjoy filing police reports.
 
BamaNicole said:
I still think its funny that people are crying about affirmative action in med school admissions. You'd think that schools had quotas to fill....which is not true.
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Yes, yes indeed. Write all of the Asian congressmen/women in California and tell them the truth before it's too late. Run, don't walk.
 
MDforMee said:
Yes, yes indeed. Write all of the Asian congressmen/women in California and tell them the truth before it's too late. Run, don't walk.
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I'm getting more and more convinced you have no idea what is going on around you. Affirmative action in California has not existed for some time so a continued ban doesn't mean much. Med schools don't see AA as well so the point is moot. If there was AA then I wouldn't have been one of 15 natives on my campus at a UC.
 
Admissions are skewed for other reasons. A person's circumstances they had to deal with and their background should be taken into account. If this is one of the few subjective parts of admissions it is definitely necessary. You know what's skewed? Judging people's potential to succeed in medical school based off of a randomly chosen set of questions most of which are on topics and information you will never use again after the test or in medical school. Yes, i'm talking about the mcat.

If medical schools want the best possible test takers they should just admit watson from jeopardy.
 
NontradCA said:
The irony.

Btw I'm black.

Btw I'm not rich.

Btw you're a hypocrite.

Btw I set your ass up.

tumblr_llg81rYTI61qdasbeo1_500.gif
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Btw are you seven?
You know I had a suspicion, but I don't think you've really established anything. I"ve been saying that from the beginning?? While I think we should level the playing field, I think this should be predicated on SES, adversity not arbitrary things like race (well sort of arbitrary, there is a correlation between race and adversity but not a necessary one). I don't think because you are black you are necessarily more disadvantaged on that alone. While it might be true on average, I think it is entirely possible for a black person from a affluent family, gentrified neighborhood, etc etc (I wrote this like 4 times now, how do you think you set me up? I literally said all of that before) it is entirely possible you've had more privileged in life than a white person and abject poverty.
Bad choice of .gif btw... You eat pieces of **** for breakfast? No! Lmao
 
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