Are any schools reallt Pass/Fail, or are there always "shadow grades"?

[winsicle]

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I've heard that some schools (e.g., MSSM) are true Pass/Fail for the first 2 years. But how is this possible: isn't it necessary to have students ranked for residency considerations? Or do residencies only look at the 3rd year grades at these schools?

 

[OmahaMX80]

My school is honors/pass/fail. Students that score in the top 10% receive honors. Having said that, I attended a presentation which details my school's "performance evaluation" aka dean's letter. What I learned is that the most important factors in residency placement seem to be 3rd year evaluations and faculty evaluations from the first two years (i.e., small groups and such). Also board scores, of course, are very important... as well as extracurriculars and research experience. Your actual grades from the first two years are more or less at the bottom of the list. Do they matter? Well, according to what I've been told, yes... but many other things are more important. So, that's how school's can do pass/fail (b/c the first two years just aren't as important as other factors) and also most schools do keep a leash on it by maintaining an "honors" type of grade. Hope that helps.

 

[nala]

My school - first 2 yrs - technically straight P/F. We receive our % for each exam, the class average, and we see a histogram of score distributions. That being said, at the end of the first 2 years the top 20% gets "pass w/ distinction" added to their file. But throughout the first 2 years, unless you are always in the very top for every single exam, you can only have a general idea of where you stand in the class. If you're not in the top 20%, no one knows where you stand in the class.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

If you're not in the top 20%, no one knows where you stand in the class.

Im not sure about that. We had a presentation on this telling us that deans will be switching over to this new form letter that requires a percentile breakdown of your preclinical grades-- even if your curriculum is pass/fail (actually, I think they have to say what quartile you're in, implying they know your percentile).

 

[nala]

Im not sure about that. We had a presentation on this telling us that deans will be switching over to this new form letter that requires a percentile breakdown of your preclinical grades-- even if your curriculum is pass/fail (actually, I think they have to say what quartile you're in, implying they know your percentile).

Where do you go to school? Is this all deans everywhere?

 

[MDT]

Mayo is truly Pass/Fail for first year, and they are currently debating about continuing this for second year. Mayo also has no class rank and no AOA for any year. Since our classes are so small, it is nice to not have to worry about being in the top 10% when there are only 42 people in the class.

 

[Winged Scapula]

On reviewing residency applications from a number of schools with Pass/Fail curriculums, most provide histograms showing where students rank in the first two years and to date, the last two years. So they must keep some sort of record to be able to place you in the Top 20, etc.

 

[OmahaMX80]

It is true that all schools will be required to break their students into quartiles but that is it; no one will be number 1, 2, 13, 54, etc., unless the school does it of their own volition. My school is going to use the number of courses honored as ONE criteria to rank us into quartiles but they will also be using 3rd year evals, board scores, extracurriculars, evaluations by small group moderators, etc. My school maintains that no percentile grades are retained once the class is over. After our percentage grade is converted to honors/pass/fail for the transcript, no record of our percentile is kept, supposedly. However... I don't know that I entirely believe this.

 

[ptolemy]

It is true that all schools will be required to break their students into quartiles but that is it; no one will be number 1, 2, 13, 54, etc., unless the school does it of their own volition. My school is going to use the number of courses honored as ONE criteria to rank us into quartiles but they will also be using 3rd year evals, board scores, extracurriculars, evaluations by small group moderators, etc. My school maintains that no percentile grades are retained once the class is over. After our percentage grade is converted to honors/pass/fail for the transcript, no record of our percentile is kept, supposedly. However... I don't know that I entirely believe this.

My school is exactly like this, and I really don't believe they keep the % score anywhere. They do, however, keep a record of where you placed after each exam (whether you were passing or failing, not %'s) for internal use. The vast majority of the class rank (quartile) is 3rd year grades (H/HP/P/F)

 

[beanbean]

UCONN is pass/fail. No AOA or rankings.

 

[anamarylee]

I talked about this once with a professor who's a former dean. It came up that the shelf exams can be tool to rank the students. My school used to be ABCF, switched to P/F, and switched back to ABCF because of the whole ranking problem it caused.

 

[phoenixsupra]

Yes, there are "shadow" grades. Pass/fail is just a vain attempt to stop us from ripping each other's throats out. Generally, deans don't like to acknowledge that there is any kind of ranking. But don't kid youself, it's basically the only thing about you that they care about when it comes time to write that dean's letter.