Are Caribbean medical schools still a sustainable option in 2021 (and beyond)?

[Wolvvs]

That is patently false about both the EU and Australia, unless you are talking about Australia more than a decade ago. For the EU, you would need to go 15+ years back to sorta be correct.

Hard to talk about Australia generally, but University of Queensland publishes their international match statistics here:

International graduate employment outcomes - Medical School - University of Queensland

medicine-program.uq.edu.au

The vast majority of international graduates are able to find a place in Australia. Their match rate for the international traditional cohort to the US (so mostly Canadians hoping to match to the US) isn't as good, around 50%, but all of those who couldn't match to the US were able to get a spot in Australia.

UQ-Ochsner is a different story, their match list is very good and isn't inferior to a low-tier MD school: Match rates and locations

But the 504 minimum MCAT requirement means UQ-Ochsner isn't a good choice for a decent number of students looking to go Caribbean. But if you do have the 504, UQ-Ochsner is a vastly better choice, especially if you're thinking about a specialty that's a bit more competitive.

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[Shah_Patel_PT]

In your opinions, do you all believe this to be the case? I personally don't, simply because Step 1 going P/F will change the game somewhat.

The reason why I ask this is because I know someone who recently went to AUC, and at face-value it seems these people are scoring residencies. Or maybe people really just aren't doing their basic research and just go anyway... and it'd be too shocking to me if that were the case.

So, some people make it I suppose? Don't know. Would love to hear your experiences and answers.

The game will always be there. There will be other ways that carib students will use to stand out or not. At the end of the day it depends on the individual. performance in med school and step 2 scores (now will be used to weed out).

As a carib grad myself. I am a sub specialist and have seen the differences in rotations in clerkships and residency/fellowships. US IMG are obviously preferred but beyond that it is fair game for everyone else.

 

[AndrzejZ]

Additionally, one has to consider the pretty unfortunate conflicts of interest that arise from the for-profit nature of these schools. I cannot personally attest to anything, but I have heard horror stories on the internet about the ways that these schools treat their students and the abnormally high rates of attrition. This can translate to fewer resources to help students match. As long as these schools remain for-profit, I don't see this changing in 2021 or beyond.

I have so much respect for people who graduate and match from Carib schools. The hurdles they must have had to jump through in order to even make it to the match are wild!

As a USMD student, this is purely an outsider's POV. Would be very interesting for a Carib student to weigh in!

Be very careful

Some of those unis are not recognized anywhere, so you can't even sit the USMLE, PLAB etc. so the degree is worthless.

Or the curriculum is so bad you'll never pass the board exams in other countries

(i remember one doc who did a 3 year Carribean degree and didn't know ****) or your USMLE points will be so low you have no chance of getting hired

Same with the degrees at private unis in Eastern Europe, Russia.

Though some of them are good and more stringent and will have an Amercian curriculum and USMLE steps are actually part of the degree.

Some will be good and cost you a fraction of what you would pay in the States, though again be careful, I know of one where they just tripled student fees halfway through the degree.

(My background: got my degree in Europe, then sat the Australian exam)

Encountered a lot of overseas trained doctors, including some who tried the USMLE multiple times before (or learned that their degree is worthless in the US and Australia). Most of them don't stand a chance of ever passing the board exams in the US/UK/Australia, their lack of knowledge was downright scary.

(Though I passed my Australian MCQ a month after graduating, PLAB is pretty easy too and some friends did the USMLE. But I also did an exchange semester in Australia, so I was familiar with that system as well.)

UQ Ochsner is a very specialised and unique program. Met students from the Ochsner, they usually can get jobs but that one is an exception to the rule.

In your opinions, do you all believe this to be the case? I personally don't, simply because Step 1 going P/F will change the game somewhat.

The reason why I ask this is because I know someone who recently went to AUC, and at face-value it seems these people are scoring residencies. Or maybe people really just aren't doing their basic research and just go anyway... and it'd be too shocking to me if that were the case.

So, some people make it I suppose? Don't know. Would love to hear your experiences and answers.

 

[AndrzejZ]

Be very careful

Some of those unis are not recognized anywhere, so you can't even sit the USMLE, PLAB etc. so the degree is worthless.

Or the curriculum is so bad you'll never pass the board exams in other countries

(i remember one doc who did a 3 year Carribean degree and didn't know ****) or your USMLE points will be so low you have no chance of getting hired

Same with the degrees at private unis in Eastern Europe, Russia.

Though some of them are good and more stringent and will have an Amercian curriculum and USMLE steps are actually part of the degree.

Some will be good and cost you a fraction of what you would pay in the States, though again be careful, I know of one where they just tripled student fees halfway through the degree.

(My background: got my degree in Europe, then sat the Australian exam)

Encountered a lot of overseas trained doctors, including some who tried the USMLE multiple times before (or learned that their degree is worthless in the US and Australia). Most of them don't stand a chance of ever passing the board exams in the US/UK/Australia, their lack of knowledge was downright scary.

(Though I passed my Australian MCQ a month after graduating, PLAB is pretty easy too and some friends did the USMLE. But I also did an exchange semester in Australia, so I was familiar with that system as well.)

UQ Ochsner is a very specialised and unique program. Met students from the Ochsner, they usually can get jobs but that one is an exception to the rule.

In your opinions, do you all believe this to be the case? I personally don't, simply because Step 1 going P/F will change the game somewhat.

The reason why I ask this is because I know someone who recently went to AUC, and at face-value it seems these people are scoring residencies. Or maybe people really just aren't doing their basic research and just go anyway... and it'd be too shocking to me if that were the case.

So, some people make it I suppose? Don't know. Would love to hear your experiences and answers.

One more thing about studying in the EU as a non-citizen. You can study at some pretty great Unis paying close to nothing by US standards (think 1000€ per year).

Most of them will not teach in English, hard but doable - though if you didn't grow up bilingual - the students who make it usually would go to that country a year before starting med school to learn the language, some of them working as part time Au-pairs as well.

 

[Goro]

Why did the powers that be make step 1 P/F? I still don’t understand.

To reduce the significant stress the exam was causing due PDs using it as a screening tool.

The exam was never meant to be that.

 

[YCAGA]

Hard to talk about Australia generally, but University of Queensland publishes their international match statistics here:

International graduate employment outcomes - Medical School - University of Queensland

medicine-program.uq.edu.au

The vast majority of international graduates are able to find a place in Australia. Their match rate for the international traditional cohort to the US (so mostly Canadians hoping to match to the US) isn't as good, around 50%, but all of those who couldn't match to the US were able to get a spot in Australia.

UQ-Ochsner is a different story, their match list is very good and isn't inferior to a low-tier MD school: Match rates and locations

But the 504 minimum MCAT requirement means UQ-Ochsner isn't a good choice for a decent number of students looking to go Caribbean. But if you do have the 504, UQ-Ochsner is a vastly better choice, especially if you're thinking about a specialty that's a bit more competitive.

Glad to be proven wrong about UQ. That is much better than I remember it being when I read about it in 2018-19.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Wait what’s this about? Where can I learn more?

Look up any inner NYC hospital that you haven’t heard of, and look at their IM program. Majority is fully IMG/FMG

Hard to talk about Australia generally, but University of Queensland publishes their international match statistics here:

International graduate employment outcomes - Medical School - University of Queensland

medicine-program.uq.edu.au

The vast majority of international graduates are able to find a place in Australia. Their match rate for the international traditional cohort to the US (so mostly Canadians hoping to match to the US) isn't as good, around 50%, but all of those who couldn't match to the US were able to get a spot in Australia.

UQ-Ochsner is a different story, their match list is very good and isn't inferior to a low-tier MD school: Match rates and locations

But the 504 minimum MCAT requirement means UQ-Ochsner isn't a good choice for a decent number of students looking to go Caribbean. But if you do have the 504, UQ-Ochsner is a vastly better choice, especially if you're thinking about a specialty that's a bit more competitive.

Hot damn, someone matched derm and nsgy? I am starting to get tempted to apply.

 

[YCAGA]

Look up any inner NYC hospital that you haven’t heard of IM’

Hot damn, someone matched derm and nsgy? I am starting to get tempted to apply.

You see the same crazy matches from the Irish schools that North Americans can attend. I think going to legit medical schools versus the Caribbean really does make a huge difference, in both the education quality and the students that choose the schools. The Australian and Irish schools would be no brainer options if they weren’t the price of a very expensive private DO school.

 

[Wolvvs]

Glad to be proven wrong about UQ. That is much better than I remember it being when I read about it in 2018-19.

I do think there are some legitimate concerns that have been brought up--number of international spots at Australian medical schools have been growing, and the number of students graduating is really close to the number of internships available. So far the government has been willing to develop programs to support increased internship positions but immigration's a big political topic at the moment and who knows how things will go in the future. But for someone choosing between Australia and the Caribbean who wanted to have a good backup plan for not matching to their home country, Australia is the better choice by far IMO.

Hot damn, someone matched derm and nsgy? I am starting to get tempted to apply.

The UQ-Ochsner application cycle runs from November through to the first half of next year. I think it's a great choice for an applicant coming off of an unsuccessful US application cycle, especially for a high MCAT/low GPA applicant because of the way GPA is converted to the Australian system. I hope things go well for you, it's still early in the cycle! But if you don't end up with any acceptances and are okay living on the other side of the world for two years, it's absolutely worth considering. I'm a current M1 at UQ-Ochsner so I'm a bit biased

 

[AndrzejZ]

Yes, Intern spots are a bit of a bottleneck in Australia but Ochsner would allow you to work in the US, Australia, and UK/Commonwealth.

The UK had a major brain drain after Brexit, the NHS will take anyone tbh. So worst case you do your Intern year in the UK - which probably will be hell - and then you move on to better things.

 

[mcat_taker]

Look up any inner NYC hospital that you haven’t heard of, and look at their IM program. Majority is fully IMG/FMG


Hot damn, someone matched derm and nsgy? I am starting to get tempted to apply.

neurosurgery match in back to back years and ortho match in back to back years.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Anyone contemplating this needs to look at the numbers. IMG from carib schools have it ROUGH in the match. Applying to 150++ programs for IM and FM. Got a 220 on step 1? You can kiss EM, Rads, anesthesia, OB, surgery, IM at decent university programs, and pretty much anything else competitive good bye. This isn't the case at DO schools. 220 step 1 DO still has options in the above mentioned specialties and programs. As an anecdote I have rotated with other Carib students and some of these people have like 240/250's on boards and are still applying to 200 programs for IM and EM. Also the advising at Carib schools is pitiful. This one girl I am rotating with believes EM is extremely "competitive" because her school said so and is elated that she is getting invites from no name community programs in such a "competitive" specialty, she also believes that she's going to be making 500k+ coming out of such programs with the current EM job market 🤣 another believes she will match surgery with a 220's step 1 by going the Gen surgery prelim route. One applying anesthesia apparently didn't know you could apply directly to advanced programs in anesthesia for pgy2 year and just apply to prelim and TY spots at the same time for your pgy1 year. Instead he listened to some "advisor" and only applied to the combined programs with the CBY making his path that much harder in an already IMG unfriendly specialty. Also look at the PD survey, many programs either never or only seldom ever consider US IMG. Retake mcat, do post bac and reapply MD/DO. Most people can atleast get into DO if they go that route and will be in a much better shape for matching into residency.

PS some programs especially prestigious places take DO's and even FMG's over Carib IMG, so at some places they are considered even below visa requiring FMG's, just food for thought.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Anyone contemplating this needs to look at the numbers. IMG from carib schools have it ROUGH in the match. Applying to 150++ programs for IM and FM. Got a 220 on step 1? You can kiss EM, Rads, anesthesia, OB, surgery, IM at decent university programs, and pretty much anything else competitive good bye. This isn't the case at DO schools. 220 step 1 DO still has options in the above mentioned specialties and programs. As an anecdote I have rotated with other Carib students and some of these people have like 240/250's on boards and are still applying to 200 programs for IM and EM. Also the advising at Carib schools is pitiful. This one girl I am rotating with believes EM is extremely "competitive" because her school said so and is elated that she is getting invites from no name community programs in such a "competitive" specialty, she also believes that she's going to be making 500k+ coming out of such programs with the current EM job market 🤣 another believes she will match surgery with a 220's step 1 by going the Gen surgery prelim route. One applying anesthesia apparently didn't know you could apply directly to advanced programs in anesthesia for pgy2 year and just apply to prelim and TY spots at the same time for your pgy1 year. Instead he listened to some "advisor" and only applied to the combined programs with the CBY making his path that much harder in an already IMG unfriendly specialty. Also look at the PD survey, many programs either never or only seldom ever consider US IMG. Retake mcat, do post bac and reapply MD/DO. Most people can atleast get into DO if they go that route and will be in a much better shape for matching into residency.

How will programs distinguish among Carib grads with P/F Step 1?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

How will programs distinguish among Carib grads with P/F Step 1?

Step 2 like it's for everyone else. Makes things tougher.

 

[8jsi37]

I think strictly from a statistical and data point of view, you're always better off going to a US med school (MD/DO). Their match rates are always significantly better than even the Big 3. I think everyone should exhaust all of their options before even considering carib. Even then, changing into another career may pan out better. However, I think if you're gonna go abroad for med school (b/c you weren't able to get a US acceptance), i would highly look into med schools in actually good countries like Australia, UK, China, etc. At least if you don't match, you'll be able to set up and have a good life in those countries compared to something in the caribbeans. The drawback of these med schools are that they probably dont have USCE built into their program or cater to US and their USMLE like the big 3 do. Big 3 have US rotation clinical sites.

I'd say the biggest hurdle is making it through the basic science years, aka the first two years. There are A LOT of weeding out. It's not a pretty sight. With that being said, if you do make it out, I think realistically, if you're a IMG, you should be okay with primary care (IM/FM/Peds) and maybe other lower competitive specialties. If you're not, then you shouldn't even think about it. You won't match at prestigious residencies and prob will mostly match at community programs. The reality is that these community residencies for IM/FM/Peds generally are IMG friendly and take in IMGs over others for a few reasons. They know US AMGs have a lot of choices and better choices too. They'll try to use them as a back up, so that's why these residencies tend to favor IMGs more because they know they won't be used as a back up. However, going to a US school >>>>>>

All in all, you're much better off going to a US school

 

[Metamorphosis.DO]

I won’t comment on Caribbean schools.. I think enough has been said. I also don’t want to open a can of worms. But as a DO student, I just want to invite people reading through this to get over themselves. I am friends with a guy whose father is an attorney and has always told his son that having an MD degree is more prestigious, therefore, he ought never consider a DO degree. After 3 cycles, he’s now in the Caribbean paying out the sigmoid colon, and everything distal to it, associating with mediocre preceptors, and setting himself up to get a mediocre residency. He scored a 508 but had a low gpa. I’m sure he had a good chance at getting into a DO program but didn’t because of his immaturity and pride. I understand 40 years ago not wanting to go this direction. But now? Why?

Sure, it may be slightly more difficult to get into the most competitive residencies, but that’s only a few like neurosx. Even then, it’s possible. Almost every week DOs speak at our school who are renown experts in surgical and otherwise very distinguished specialties.

Get over yourself, get the DO. study 200 hours of how you can manipulate the human body with your hands to encourage bodily function like lymph flow, muscle relaxation, etc. I went into OMM with an open mind and while I doubt I use it all the time in practice, I’ve use this stuff on my pregnant wife and see its efficacy regularly. I’ve seen hospital admission protocols mandate a consult with a DO who specializes in OMM for a consult and tx if indicated. simple tools you can add to your tool belt when other conventional means are not an option (as often is the case in pregnant women).

Truly, when your professional testes descend the inguinal canal, you will realize that all the premeds who love to act like they are smarter than eveyone else by saying “I’d never be a DO”, are not as smart as you once thought. You’ll realize that in the real world, DO=MD. Hence why we take the same boards (mostly) and train in the same programs. It’s all about our origins (good ol’ AT Still.)

Best of luck to those in a tough spot right now weighing their options. You’ll get where you truly want to be if you put forth the effort. Please, before going to the islands though, truly exhaust all your US options.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I won’t comment on Caribbean schools.. I think enough has been said. I also don’t want to open a can of worms. But as a DO student, I just want to invite people reading through this to get over themselves. I am friends with a guy whose father is an attorney and has always told his son that having an MD degree is more prestigious, therefore, he ought never consider a DO degree. After 3 cycles, he’s now in the Caribbean paying out the sigmoid colon, and everything distal to it, associating with mediocre preceptors, and setting himself up to get a mediocre residency. He scored a 508 but had a low gpa. I’m sure he had a good chance at getting into a DO program but didn’t because of his immaturity and pride. I understand 40 years ago not wanting to go this direction. But now? Why?

Sure, it may be slightly more difficult to get into the most competitive residencies, but that’s only a few like neurosx. Even then, it’s possible. Almost every week DOs speak at our school who are renown experts in surgical and otherwise very distinguished specialties.

Get over yourself, get the DO. study 200 hours of how you can manipulate the human body with your hands to encourage bodily function like lymph flow, muscle relaxation, etc. I went into OMM with an open mind and while I doubt I use it all the time in practice, I’ve use this stuff on my pregnant wife and see its efficacy regularly. I’ve seen hospital admission protocols mandate a consult with a DO who specializes in OMM for a consult and tx if indicated. simple tools you can add to your tool belt when other conventional means are not an option (as often is the case in pregnant women).

Truly, when your professional testes descend the inguinal canal, you will realize that all the premeds who love to act like they are smarter than eveyone else by saying “I’d never be a DO”, are not as smart as you once thought. You’ll realize that in the real world, DO=MD. Hence why we take the same boards (mostly) and train in the same programs. It’s all about our origins (good ol’ AT Still.)

Best of luck to those in a tough spot right now weighing their options. You’ll get where you truly want to be if you put forth the effort. Please, before going to the islands though, truly exhaust all your US options.

The # of DO matches to competitive stuff vs Carib IMG matches is startling, despite a simmilar number of people in the match each year from both cohorts.

 

[the argus]

Just to clear up some inaccuracies floating around in this thread...

1. More IMGs are starting residency each year then ever before. The number is going up, not down.

From reading this thread you would think that IMGs are getting pushed out of residency positions due to the increase in USMD/DO enrollment. It's actually the opposite, more IMGs are starting residency each year than ever before. The number of new residency positions each year is outpacing the number of new USMD/DO grads. This isn't my opinion, this is from the numbers released by the ACGME.

ACGME Data Resource Book

www.acgme.org

page 89 in the most recent edition, figure c.27

2. Step 1 becoming P/F will have zero impact on US-IMG match rates.

The idea that step 1 being P/F will someone negatively impact US-IMGs more than anyone else makes no sense. This is because the vast majority of US-IMGs are not outcompeting USMD for spots based on a superior step 1 score. They never have been. Like DOs, the vast majority of US-IMGs go to residency positions that USMDs do not want, period. They are competing against DOs, other US-IMGs, and foreign-IMGs. Also, it's not like just US-IMGs will be P/F, and everyone else will still get a numerical score. If programs are that concerned about using numerical scores to differentiate people, they will still have step 2 to use. This will affect everyone, not just US-IMGs.

 

[Gambino.]

2. Step 1 becoming P/F will have zero impact on US-IMG match rates.

The idea that step 1 being P/F will someone negatively impact US-IMGs more than anyone else makes no sense. This is because the vast majority of US-IMGs are not outcompeting USMD for spots based on a superior step 1 score. They never have been. Like DOs, the vast majority of US-IMGs go to residency positions that USMDs do not want, period. They are competing against DOs, other US-IMGs, and foreign-IMGs. Also, it's not like just US-IMGs will be P/F, and everyone else will still get a numerical score. If programs are that concerned about using numerical scores to differentiate people, they will still have step 2 to use. This will affect everyone, not just US-IMGs.

While this is true as a whole, the P/F change will likely affect IMGs striving for more competitive (non-community primary care) residency spots. Agree with the post in general though, IMGs as a whole have never really been taking spots from AMGs. Step 2 will be looked at more but there is a lot less stratification historically with Step 2 as compared to Step 1.