Are SMP weighted differently than a undergraduate gpa

[Med4sci]

In my opinion a 3.0 special masters GPA should outweighs an undergrad GPA of a 3.0 because in a special masters you are taking medical school classes. A year of medical school classes to be exact and getting a B average should be seen as good. It means you can very much handle the medical school curriculum. My undergraduate gpa is a 2.88 (My science gpa was lower than that maybe a 2.5 I don’t remember that was back in 2014 when I dropped premed). my second undergrad gpa is a 3.12 (3.0 science gpa) and now I’m in a special masters program .last semester was HARD 24-25 credit hrs and my gpa was a 3.2 ... 3 B’s 1 A. this semester is 19 credit hrs. we are almost finished with the school year (this special masters was Only two semesters) and I have two A’s : medical biochemistry 2 and neuro anatomy . and two B’s : Physio and microbiology. my gpa outlook will be a 3.5 for this semester but a 3.34 cumulative gpa. I bussed my ass this semester while founding my outreach program etc. I feel like the medical school curriculum taught here at The SMP program I’m at shows that I can handle the work . I don’t need a 4.0 GPA To prove in adequate and I feel that a 3.34 cumulative gpa is should be looked at differently from a traditional undergrad ...the classes are very difficult damn near med school curriculum but even med schools end at 12 or so. My classes run until 2 sometimes 3pm

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Dont shoot the messenger but the general consensus is you NEED a 3.5 GPA in your SMP for DO programs, and a 3.7 for MD. A 3.3 in an SMP wont impress much

 

[Med4sci]

Dont shoot the messenger but the general consensus is you NEED a 3.5 GPA in your SMP for DO programs, and a 3.7 for MD. A 3.3 in an SMP wont impress much

From whom exactly ? What specific schools said that ? And furthermore why is the threshold that high?. Undergrad classes are no where near as rigorous as the classes I’m taking. And a lot of entering med students fail there med school exams who had a stellar undergrad gpa because at the end of the day, they either weren’t exposed to the material, or didn’t know how to study for medical school... undergrad and medical school study habits are different.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

From whom exactly ? What specific schools said that ? And furthermore why is the threshold that high?. Undergrad classes are no where near as rigorous as the classes I’m taking. And a lot of entering med students fail there med school exams who had a stellar undergrad gpa because at the end of the day, they either weren’t exposed to the material, or didn’t know how to study for medical school... undergrad and medical school study habits are different.

Find Goro’s Guide for Reinvention. Its on here somewhere. A google search might be easier than scowering the forums

 

[Med4sci]

Find Goro’s Guide for Reinvention. Its on here somewhere. A google search might be easier than scowering the forums

Okay thank you well im still going to apply . I have at least 1,000 clinical hrs, volunteer experience, leadership experience and I founded my own outreach program so I stay busy.

 

[Goro]

In my opinion a 3.0 special masters GPA should outweighs an undergrad GPA of a 3.0 because in a special masters you are taking medical school classes. A year of medical school classes to be exact and getting a B average should be seen as good. It means you can very much handle the medical school curriculum. My undergraduate gpa is a 2.88 (My science gpa was lower than that maybe a 2.5 I don’t remember that was back in 2014 when I dropped premed). my second undergrad gpa is a 3.12 (3.0 science gpa) and now I’m in a special masters at Ponce-STL .last semester was HARD 24-25 credit hrs and my gpa was a 3.2 ... this semester is 19 credit hrs. we are almost finished with the school year (this special masters was Only two semesters) and I have two A’s in medical biochemistry 2 and neuro anatomy so my gpa outlook will be a 3.5 for this semester but a 3.34 cumulative gpa. I bussed my ass this semester while founding my outreach program etc. I feel like the medical school curriculum taught here at Ponce -stl shows that I can handle the work . I don’t need a 4.0 GPA To prove in adequate and I feel that a 3.34 cumulative gpa is should be looked at differently from a traditional undergrad ...the classes are very difficult damn near med school curriculum but even med schools end at 12 or so. My classes run until 2 sometimes 3pm

I understand your mindset, but you're still approaching this like a pre-med student.

My own special master's program has years of data that show that a stude with your Masters GPA would flounder in medical school. It's not a linear slope where a 4.0 Masters student performs at the same level of a 4.0 medical student, and a 3.0 Master student performs at a 3.0 medical student.

What we have found is that our students who are down around 3.0 like you, have a lot of trouble in the medical school. Especially if they have at least one or more C's in their transcript. It's like they're juggling chainsaws. You don't want to have one land on your foot.

In order to be a viable candidate for medical school you should be acing this master's program.

Your chances for medical school will be best with DO schools., and maybe your parent program.

 

[gyngyn]

With a strong MCAT, you may get interviews at the schools in PR that consider mainlanders (all but UPR, I believe).

 

[Med4sci]

I understand your mindset, but you're still approaching this like a pre-med student.

My own special master's program has years of data that show that a stude with your Masters GPA would flounder in medical school. It's not a linear slope where a 4.0 Masters student performs at the same level of a 4.0 medical student, and a 3.0 Master student performs at a 3.0 medical student.

What we have found is that our students who are down around 3.0 like you, have a lot of trouble in the medical school. Especially if they have at least one or more C's in their transcript. It's like they're juggling chainsaws. You don't want to have one land on your foot.

In order to be a viable candidate for medical school you should be acing this master's program.

Your chances for medical school will be best with DO schools., and maybe your parent program.

I’m confused how they are drowning if they are already exposed to the medical school curriculum than someone who just did undergraduate coarse work ..

 

[Med4sci]

I understand your mindset, but you're still approaching this like a pre-med student.

My own special master's program has years of data that show that a stude with your Masters GPA would flounder in medical school. It's not a linear slope where a 4.0 Masters student performs at the same level of a 4.0 medical student, and a 3.0 Master student performs at a 3.0 medical student.

What we have found is that our students who are down around 3.0 like you, have a lot of trouble in the medical school. Especially if they have at least one or more C's in their transcript. It's like they're juggling chainsaws. You don't want to have one land on your foot.

In order to be a viable candidate for medical school you should be acing this master's program.

Your chances for medical school will be best with DO schools., and maybe your parent program.

I understand your mindset, but you're still approaching this like a pre-med student.

My own special master's program has years of data that show that a stude with your Masters GPA would flounder in medical school. It's not a linear slope where a 4.0 Masters student performs at the same level of a 4.0 medical student, and a 3.0 Master student performs at a 3.0 medical student.

What we have found is that our students who are down around 3.0 like you, have a lot of trouble in the medical school. Especially if they have at least one or more C's in their transcript. It's like they're juggling chainsaws. You don't want to have one land on your foot.

In order to be a viable candidate for medical school you should be acing this master's program.

Your chances for medical school will be best with DO schools., and maybe your parent program.

I understand your mindset, but you're still approaching this like a pre-med student.

My own special master's program has years of data that show that a stude with your Masters GPA would flounder in medical school. It's not a linear slope where a 4.0 Masters student performs at the same level of a 4.0 medical student, and a 3.0 Master student performs at a 3.0 medical student.

What we have found is that our students who are down around 3.0 like you, have a lot of trouble in the medical school. Especially if they have at least one or more C's in their transcript. It's like they're juggling chainsaws. You don't want to have one land on your foot.

In order to be a viable candidate for medical school you should be acing this master's program.

Your chances for medical school will be best with DO schools., and maybe your parent program.

Also what is your special masters program and where can I find the data for what you’re referring to with GPA in SMP correlating with Medical school success ?

 

[gyngyn]

Also what is your special masters program and where can I find the data for what you’re referring to with GPA in SMP correlating with Medical school success ?

We ask members to protect their anonymity. It allows us to speak freely without fear of recriminations from our institutions.
I'm sure you understand.

 

[Flareicus]

The harsh truth is that you have to go beyond showing that you're capable of handling the bare minimum of work, but that you would be a comparable applicant to the high performing applicants who don't need a SMP for GPA repair.

Sure, you've demonstrated that you may be able to survive in medical school, but with how deep the applicant pool is, why would a medical school settle on an applicant who's record implies they would be an average student when they can admit people who may have the potential to be star students?

 

[Med4sci]

I would say because it doesn’t take being a star student to be a doctor. Like I mentioned to someone in the forum a person who doesn’t need a special masters can be dry much fall flat on their face because undergrad gpa and coursework is not nearly the same as medical school. I would also like to ask posters to identify if they are: student who matriculated already, a medical school admission committee person, or doctor themselves it will help me in understanding one’s perspective.

 

[Med4sci]

Dont shoot the messenger but the general consensus is you NEED a 3.5 GPA in your SMP for DO programs, and a 3.7 for MD. A 3.3 in an SMP wont impress much

I understand but if there a table that be provided at a school that is not theirs in particular that would be great

 

[Med4sci]

The harsh truth is that you have to go beyond showing that you're capable of handling the bare minimum of work, but that you would be a comparable applicant to the high performing applicants who don't need a SMP for GPA repair.

Sure, you've demonstrated that you may be able to survive in medical school, but with how deep the applicant pool is, why would a medical school settle on an applicant who's record implies they would be an average student when they can admit people who may have the potential to be star students?

Also do you mind stating if you are matriculated medical student, an admissions committee person, or a physician?

 

[Goro]

I’m confused how they are drowning if they are already exposed to the medical school curriculum than someone who just did undergraduate coarse work ..

Your SMP is med school lite. You're not taking the clinical courses.

The students I'm talking about simply lack the firepower needed to thrive as med students.

How do I know this? Ten + years of teaching in an SMP and 20+ at a med school.

 

[baz2020]

This thread has really exhausted all of the talking points that need to be said in this situation tbh. This is a reality and part of the risk of doing an SMP, and you'll just have to live with it. As @Goro states SMPs are high risk high reward. Do awesome and you'll see gains on your application, do mediocre and the degree is pretty much useless. This is not new information that needs to be cited by stats and outcomes publicly, internal stats likely make this the reason adcoms treat them this way. The threshold is high because you can not add further evidence to your record of not excelling.

 

[Flareicus]

I would say because it doesn’t take being a star student to be a doctor. Like I mentioned to someone in the forum a person who doesn’t need a special masters can be dry much fall flat on their face because undergrad gpa and coursework is not nearly the same as medical school. I would also like to ask posters to identify if they are: student who matriculated already, a medical school admission committee person, or doctor themselves it will help me in understanding one’s perspective.

I'm a MS0 that will be starting in August, but what I've stated isn't my opinion, it's what's happening in medical school applications.

If medical schools were just admitting anyone who should be able to be a doctor, the entrance requirements would be a 2.0 GPA with a 500 MCAT (a student who passed all their classes in undergrad and met the minimum score to demonstrate competency on the MCAT) instead of the current 3.7/511 profile.

However, the number of available seats are limited which makes the competition much more fierce. Just like any selective institution or company, medical schools don't just want students who will pass, they want the best students possible.

 

[Moko]

In my opinion a 3.0 special masters GPA should outweighs an undergrad GPA of a 3.0 because in a special masters you are taking medical school classes. A year of medical school classes to be exact and getting a B average should be seen as good. It means you can very much handle the medical school curriculum. My undergraduate gpa is a 2.88 (My science gpa was lower than that maybe a 2.5 I don’t remember that was back in 2014 when I dropped premed). my second undergrad gpa is a 3.12 (3.0 science gpa) and now I’m in a special masters at Ponce-STL .last semester was HARD 24-25 credit hrs and my gpa was a 3.2 ... this semester is 19 credit hrs. we are almost finished with the school year (this special masters was Only two semesters) and I have two A’s in medical biochemistry 2 and neuro anatomy so my gpa outlook will be a 3.5 for this semester but a 3.34 cumulative gpa. I bussed my ass this semester while founding my outreach program etc. I feel like the medical school curriculum taught here at Ponce -stl shows that I can handle the work . I don’t need a 4.0 GPA To prove in adequate and I feel that a 3.34 cumulative gpa is should be looked at differently from a traditional undergrad ...the classes are very difficult damn near med school curriculum but even med schools end at 12 or so. My classes run until 2 sometimes 3pm

I get that you are likely frustrated and just venting about your situation. However, just passing a SMP is insufficient for admission to medical school.

We already know that most applicants would make perfectly satisfactory medical students. As an example (slides 33-34), 92% of USMD students who have a cGPA between 3.00-3.19 & MCAT 502-505 will successfully pass Step I on their first attempt and/or progress to clerkships on time. In comparison, >98% of those with cGPA>3.80 & MCAT>518 will do the same.

Despite a very high likelihood (>92%) of doing just fine, only 20% of students in the former category (cGPA between 3.00-3.19 & MCAT 502-505) will successfully get into a USMD school. Why? Because there simply are not enough spots to accommodate everyone who could theoretically pass the curriculum. I don't have data specifically comparing SMP GPA with similar endpoints, but I highly suspect similar trends would be found.

All else being equal (i.e. similar fit, background, ECs, pre-test probability of matriculating if accepted, etc.), when you have the option to interview and admit a numerically superior candidate, why bother taking a chance on a theoretical 3.00/502 student?

In your case, you do seemingly have great extracurricular activities (">1,000 clinical hrs, volunteer experience, leadership experience"), which may be the saving grace in your application. Depending on your MCAT, your best chances are likely with USDO schools (you'll find anecdotal evidence on SDN from prior applicants). Just my thoughts and best of luck.

 

[KnightDoc]

I would say because it doesn’t take being a star student to be a doctor. Like I mentioned to someone in the forum a person who doesn’t need a special masters can be dry much fall flat on their face because undergrad gpa and coursework is not nearly the same as medical school. I would also like to ask posters to identify if they are: student who matriculated already, a medical school admission committee person, or doctor themselves it will help me in understanding one’s perspective.

You're absolutely right, and, in a perfect world (for applicants! ), schools would treat applicants far better, there would be a spot, somewhere, for every marginally qualified applicant, and what you are dealing with wouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately for you, that is not the world we live in. In the real world, schools have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to running their admissions programs. They each admit between like 2% and maybe 10% of their applicants. Adcoms, like some you are interracting with here, call it a "sellers' market." Schools do what they want, and we don't have to like it, because 60,000 people are competing for 20,000 spots. In this world, they select for diversity, special talent and unique experiences, and very high academics. They really don't need people who can merely do the work.

You are correct -- you don't need to be a star to be successful, but a star is more likely to be successful and is more likely to confer prestige upon the school. More importantly, there are not enough seats for everyone. All else equal, why the hell would schools reject a 4.0, 3.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6, etc. UG GPA in favor of someone with a sub 3.0 UG GPA, no matter they got in a SMP?

Answer -- many schools won't. For the schools that reward reinvention, they want to see excellence in the SMP, kind of like an act of redemption, to give them some assurance you will do well in med school, above whatever you're showing with a 3.34. Is it necessary? Probably not. Are the schools in a position to demand it? You are about to find out.

Keep in mind that it's also not necessary to consider a SMP at all in order to fill a class with highly qualified students. Many schools don't. No use complaining. It is what it is, and the schools have absolutely no incentive to change. Applications just keep going higher and higher every year as it is.

 

[Med4sci]

You're absolutely right, and, in a perfect world (for applicants! ), schools would treat applicants far better, there would be a spot, somewhere, for every marginally qualified applicant, and what you are dealing with wouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately for you, that is not the world we live in. In the real world, schools have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to running their admissions programs. They each admit between like 2% and maybe 10% of their applicants. Adcoms, like some you are interracting with here, call it a "sellers' market." Schools do what they want, and we don't have to like it, because 60,000 people are competing for 20,000 spots. In this world, they select for diversity, special talent and unique experiences, and very high academics. They really don't need people who can merely do the work.

You are correct -- you don't need to be a star to be successful, but a star is more likely to be successful and is more likely to confer prestige upon the school. More importantly, there are not enough seats for everyone. All else equal, why the hell would schools reject a 4.0, 3.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6, etc. UG GPA in favor of someone with a sub 3.0 UG GPA, no matter they got in a SMP?

Answer -- many schools won't. For the schools that reward reinvention, they want to see excellence in the SMP, kind of like an act of redemption, to give them some assurance you will do well in med school, above whatever you're showing with a 3.34. Is it necessary? Probably not. Are the schools in a position to demand it? You are about to find out.

Keep in mind that it's also not necessary to consider a SMP at all in order to fill a class with highly qualified students. Many schools don't. No use complaining. It is what it is, and the schools have absolutely no incentive to change. Applications just keep going higher and higher every year as it is.

I respect your opinion the school for this masters has a rule that if you get a 3.34 in the program you’re getting an interview at A.T. Still and Lake eerie both D.O schools.

 

[Med4sci]

I'm a MS0 that will be starting in August, but what I've stated isn't my opinion, it's what's happening in medical school applications.

If medical schools were just admitting anyone who should be able to be a doctor, the entrance requirements would be a 2.0 GPA with a 500 MCAT (a student who passed all their classes in undergrad and met the minimum score to demonstrate competency on the MCAT) instead of the current 3.7/511 profile.

However, the number of available seats are limited which makes the competition much more fierce. Just like any selective institution or company, medical schools don't just want students who will pass, they want the best students possible.

I know medical schools don’t just accept anyone which is why there are schools with a GPA and mcat Cut offs that are a 3.00 and 500 mcat score .

 

[YCAGA]

Are we getting trolled?? SMP 101 during your orientation should have been you need more A’s than B’s and the more A’s, the better. Most courses at my med school school have an average around 85-86 and a median around 87-88—same deal where I did my SMP. So it’s very likely that your SMP performance is below average. You have a <3.0 sGPA and you are in here arguing that medical schools should accept you for your below average performance in your SMP?

“You don’t have to be a top student to be a good doctor” is correct…once you’re in medical school. And I’m a medical student at a US MD school so hopefully that is enough for you to listen.

Also an SMP is easier than medical school, I have done both.

Finally, not sure why it is worth mentioning you took a lot of credits (you really didn’t tbh) and it was a hard semester. That’s the point of an SMP? And also what medical school is? Don’t use that excuse during an interview if you get one.

 

[Med4sci]

Are we getting trolled?? SMP 101 during your orientation should have been you need more A’s than B’s and the more A’s, the better. Most courses at my med school school have an average around 85-86 and a median around 87-88—same deal where I did my SMP. So it’s very likely that your SMP performance is below average. You have a <3.0 sGPA and you are in here arguing that medical schools should accept you for your below average performance in your SMP?

“You don’t have to be a top student to be a good doctor” is correct…once you’re in medical school. And I’m a medical student at a US MD school so hopefully that is enough for you to listen.

Also an SMP is easier than medical school, I have done both.

Finally, not sure why it is worth mentioning you took a lot of credits (you really didn’t tbh) and it was a hard semester. That’s the point of an SMP? And also what medical school is? Don’t use that excuse during an interview if you get one.

Are we getting trolled?? SMP 101 during your orientation should have been you need more A’s than B’s and the more A’s, the better. Most courses at my med school school have an average around 85-86 and a median around 87-88—same deal where I did my SMP. So it’s very likely that your SMP performance is below average. You have a <3.0 sGPA and you are in here arguing that medical schools should accept you for your below average performance in your SMP?

“You don’t have to be a top student to be a good doctor” is correct…once you’re in medical school. And I’m a medical student at a US MD school so hopefully that is enough for you to listen.

Also an SMP is easier than medical school, I have done both.

Finally, not sure why it is worth mentioning you took a lot of credits (you really didn’t tbh) and it was a hard semester. That’s the point of an SMP? And also what medical school is? Don’t use that excuse during an interview if you get one.

My science GPA wouldn’t be below a 3.0 in this program when I finish.🤔 it would be a 3.3 (maybe a 3.4 if I squeeze out another A). I didn’t get C’s in this program. In total I would have 3 A’s and 5 B’s (or 4 A’s 4 B’s depending on the outcome ). My science gpa wasn’t below a 3.0 in my second undergrad either. my first undergrad is where the less than 3.0 gpa come in .again I believe it was a 2.5 . I was on academic probation back then when I got my first degree by the way.. but my cumulative gpa never gotten up to par. it would have, but I was accused of plagiarism. being the 1 of the 2 students of color in the class (the school is a predominantly white conservative university) professor wasn’t convinced I, neither my fellow classmate wrote our research papers and I failed the class and so did the other student. So if you look at my grades you would see an upward trend. I think offering interviews for a 3.3 GPA in the SMP For D.O Schools is a good deal. And finally idk why you feel taking 4 classes in one semester that quals 25 credits isn’t considered “hard” . This program and other SMP’s tend to be spread out over a year. Not two semesters. No I won’t mention it in an interview when I get one but I’m sure my effort won’t go unnoticed. I also have 5+ years of research experience, a health educator, over 1,000 clinical experience, founded my own outreach network, and I tutor in my grad program, served on panels , etc. so now it’s taking time to do well on the mcat. SMP definitely isn’t in vein I only did practice Kaplan exams. one in august and got a 486, didn’t study after that. After first semester of SMP , I took another Kaplan practice exam in February and my score jumped to a 492. I am going to take an official AAMC full length after this SMP is over in may And from there, set my study schedule and take it in august .

 

[YCAGA]

My science GPA wouldn’t be below a 3.0 in this program when I finish.🤔 it would be a 3.3 (maybe a 3.4 if I squeeze out another A). I didn’t get C’s in this program. In total I would have 3 A’s and 5 B’s (or 4 A’s 4 B’s depending on the outcome ). My science gpa wasn’t below a 3.0 in my second undergrad either. my first undergrad is where the less than 3.0 gpa come in .again I believe it was a 2.5 . I was on academic probation back then when I got my first degree by the way.. but my cumulative gpa never gotten up to par. it would have, but I was accused of plagiarism. being the 1 of the 2 students of color in the class (the school is a predominantly white conservative university) professor wasn’t convinced I, neither my fellow classmate wrote our research papers and I failed the class and so did the other student. So if you look at my grades you would see an upward trend. I think offering interviews for a 3.3 GPA in the SMP For D.O Schools is a good deal. And finally idk why you feel taking 4 classes in one semester that quals 25 credits isn’t considered “hard” . This program and other SMP’s tend to be spread out over a year. Not two semesters. No I won’t mention it in an interview when I get one but I’m sure my effort won’t go unnoticed. I also have 5+ years of research experience, a health educator, over 1,000 clinical experience, founded my own outreach network, and I tutor in my grad program, served on panels , etc. so now it’s taking time to do well on the mcat. SMP definitely isn’t in vein I only did practice Kaplan exams. one in august and got a 486, didn’t study after that. After first semester of SMP , I took another Kaplan practice exam in February and my score jumped to a 492. I am going to take an official AAMC full length after this SMP is over in may And from there, set my study schedule and take it in august .

Your sGPA is all of your undergrad science courses combined, so 2.5 and then barely >3.0 in your “two undergrads” is going to be below 3.0 when averaged. And you have a plagiarism violation?! I don’t understand how being a POC plays into that IA. Are you saying you didn’t plagiarize and where wrongfully accused because you are a POC? Or that you did plagiarize but they went extra hard on you because you are a POC?

You should be scoring at least 500 if you are getting A’s and B’s in an SMP. Really anyone who has taken all their premed prereqs should be getting 495 or better. Considering <500 starts to correlate with failing out of medical school, I don’t now how this is possible. Everyone in my special master’s program who retook the MCAT was scoring 515+ after the program with multiple people 520+ with minimal studying of stuff not covered in medical school (orgo, physics, psych, etc).

 

[over]

I'm curious why are applicants expected to 4.0 their SMP.
Isn't it suppose to be the same rigor as first year of medical school or is it easier?

 

[YCAGA]

I'm curious why are applicants expected to 4.0 their SMP.
Isn't it suppose to be the same rigor as first year of medical school or is it easier?

No one has ever said that. The expectations are >3.5. Everyone from my program that got >3.5 has been accepted to an MD school. Granted they all got 515+ on the MCAT because that’s kind of a given when you have done 15,000 new Anki cards during the SMP and the MCAT decks are like 4,000 cards. The MCAT is a walk in the park after an SMP.

 

[MedDoc305]

I'm curious why are applicants expected to 4.0 their SMP.
Isn't it suppose to be the same rigor as first year of medical school or is it easier?

Your sGPA is all of your undergrad science courses combined, so 2.5 and then barely >3.0 in your “two undergrads” is going to be below 3.0 when averaged. And you have a plagiarism violation?! I don’t understand how being a POC plays into that IA. Are you saying you didn’t plagiarize and where wrongfully accused because you are a POC? Or that you did plagiarize but they went extra hard on you because you are a POC?

You should be scoring at least 500 if you are getting A’s and B’s in an SMP. Really anyone who has taken all their premed prereqs should be getting 495 or better. Considering <500 starts to correlate with failing out of medical school, I don’t now how this is possible. Everyone in my special master’s program who retook the MCAT was scoring 515+ after the program with multiple people 520+ with minimal studying of stuff not covered in medical school (orgo, physics, psych, etc).

At first, I was going to comment that he will more than likely be fine for most DO schools pending a "good" MCAT 505+. But I hadn't read his post entirely to note the IA which is what is really going to kill his app at 99% of places. A 3.34-3.4 in an SMP isn't a death sentence and with a nice MCAT you have an okay chance of getting DO interviews, but with an IA the OP should have been aiming for a 4.0 because you need to somehow overcompensate. Even then it would probably be a long shot.

 

[over]

No one has ever said that. The expectations are >3.5. Everyone from my program that got >3.5 has been accepted to an MD school. Granted they all got 515+ on the MCAT because that’s kind of a given when you have done 15,000 new Anki cards during the SMP and the MCAT decks are like 4,000 cards. The MCAT is a walk in the park after an SMP.

I have never seen a reinventor get in below 3.9 tbh. Fine maybe not 4.0, but you get what I mean. Above 3.5 is still very high for med school caliber courses.

 

[YCAGA]

I have never seen a reinventor get in below 3.9 tbh. Fine maybe not 4.0, but you get what I mean. Above 3.5 is still very high for med school caliber courses.

It really isn’t very high. That is half B’s and half A’s. That could easily put you in the third quartile at some schools if you were an actual medical student. It was that way where I did my SMP and at my current school. Both good MD schools but nothing crazy. And I mean I know 30+ reinventors personally, not just SDN posts. Granted we all went to the same program which IMO was a pretty awesome one.

 

[YCAGA]

At first, I was going to comment that he will more than likely be fine for most DO schools pending a "good" MCAT 505+. But I hadn't read his post entirely to note the IA which is what is really going to kill his app at 99% of places. A 3.34-3.4 in an SMP isn't a death sentence and with a nice MCAT you have an okay chance of getting DO interviews, but with an IA the OP should have been aiming for a 4.0 because you need to somehow overcompensate. Even then it would probably be a long shot.

An IA plus a sub 3.0 sGPA plus they are on track for MAYBE breaking 500 on their MCAT.

It is criminal that SMP’s accept students without an MCAT that is at least above the DO average. What if you do an SMP and then can never do well enough on the MCAT? $60k+ down the drain. Personally I strongly recommend against an SMP unless someone has an MCAT >510, and >515 if you want it to be more of a calculated risk than a straight up Hail Mary.

 

[over]

It really isn’t very high. That is half B’s and half A’s. That could easily put you in the third quartile at some schools if you were an actual medical student. It was that way where I did my SMP and at my current school. Both good MD schools but nothing crazy. And I mean I know 30+ reinventors personally, not just SDN posts. Granted we all went to the same program which IMO was a pretty awesome one.

do you think students who did SMP perform better? they basically pre studied and already proven to perform well in med school setting.

 

[MedDoc305]

An IA plus a sub 3.0 sGPA plus they are on track for MAYBE breaking 500 on their MCAT.

It is criminal that SMP’s accept students without an MCAT that is at least above the DO average. What if you do an SMP and then can never do well enough on the MCAT? $60k+ down the drain. Personally I strongly recommend against an SMP unless someone has an MCAT >510, and >515 if you want it to be more of a calculated risk than a straight up Hail Mary.

Agreed, or at least go to a program where a very low MCAT is acceptable, like LECOM SMP where you only need 50%? percentile.

 

[Flareicus]

I know medical schools don’t just accept anyone which is why there are schools with a GPA and mcat Cut offs that are a 3.00 and 500 mcat score .

You are arguing that they should view a mediocre SMP performance favorably because it shows they'll be able to survive medical school though.

The point of my comment wasn't that they'll accept anyone (they clearly don't, ignoring the predatory Carribean schools). It's that they have no reason to settle for someone who can pass the program when they can admit a student who has shown high academic performance and has the potential to excel.

Since the seats are so limited, schools aren't just viewing you in a vacuum. Admitting you carries the opportunity cost of them not being able to admit someone else. You have to make a strong case of why they should take you over the other 50-150 applicants competing for that one spot. If your best argument is "I'll be able to meet your minimum requirements", they will pass over you every single time.

 

[Flareicus]

I'm curious why are applicants expected to 4.0 their SMP.
Isn't it suppose to be the same rigor as first year of medical school or is it easier?

SMPs are easier as you aren't taking the clinical classes. On top of that, the people going into SMPs typically have poor academic performances prior. The point of taking a SMP is to definitively prove to AdComs that you're capable of being a great student and your past academic history no longer defines you.

If you just scrape by in the SMP, you're essentially telling AdComs that your past academic records are accurate and you would be a middling med student at best and one that would fail out at worst.

 

[Med4sci]

You're absolutely right, and, in a perfect world (for applicants! ), schools would treat applicants far better, there

Your sGPA is all of your undergrad science courses combined, so 2.5 and then barely >3.0 in your “two undergrads” is going to be below 3.0 when averaged. And you have a plagiarism violation?! I don’t understand how being a POC plays into that IA. Are you saying you didn’t plagiarize and where wrongfully accused because you are a POC? Or that you did plagiarize but they went extra hard on you because you are a POC?

You should be scoring at least 500 if you are getting A’s and B’s in an SMP. Really anyone who has taken all their premed prereqs should be getting 495 or better. Considering <500 starts to correlate with failing out of medical school, I don’t now how this is possible. Everyone in my special master’s program who retook the MCAT was scoring 515+ after the program with multiple people 520+ with minimal studying of stuff not covered in medical school (orgo, physics, psych, etc).

would be a spot, somewhere, for every marginally qualified applicant, and what you are dealing with wouldn't be an issue.

Unfortunately for you, that is not the world we live in. In the real world, schools have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to running their admissions programs. They each admit between like 2% and maybe 10% of their applicants. Adcoms, like some you are interracting with here, call it a "sellers' market." Schools do what they want, and we don't have to like it, because 60,000 people are competing for 20,000 spots. In this world, they select for diversity, special talent and unique experiences, and very high academics. They really don't need people who can merely do the work.

You are correct -- you don't need to be a star to be successful, but a star is more likely to be successful and is more likely to confer prestige upon the school. More importantly, there are not enough seats for everyone. All else equal, why the hell would schools reject a 4.0, 3.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6, etc. UG GPA in favor of someone with a sub 3.0 UG GPA, no matter they got in a SMP?

Answer -- many schools won't. For the schools that reward reinvention, they want to see excellence in the SMP, kind of like an act of redemption, to give them some assurance you will do well in med school, above whatever you're showing with a 3.34. Is it necessary? Probably not. Are the schools in a position to demand it? You are about to find out.

Keep in mind that it's also not necessary to consider a SMP at all in order to fill a class with highly qualified students. Many schools don't. No use complaining. It is what it is, and the schools have absolutely no incentive to change. Applications just keep going higher and higher every year as it is.

Your sGPA is all of your undergrad science courses combined, so 2.5 and then barely >3.0 in your “two undergrads” is going to be below 3.0 when averaged. And you have a plagiarism violation?! I don’t understand how being a POC plays into that IA. Are you saying you didn’t plagiarize and where wrongfully accused because you are a POC? Or that you did plagiarize but they went extra hard on you because you are a POC?

You should be scoring at least 500 if you are getting A’s and B’s in an SMP. Really anyone who has taken all their premed prereqs should be getting 495 or better. Considering <500 starts to correlate with failing out of medical school, I don’t now how this is possible. Everyone in my special master’s program who retook the MCAT was scoring 515+ after the program with multiple people 520+ with minimal studying of stuff not covered in medical school (orgo, physics, psych, etc).

You don’t see how what is possible ? . That I’m getting A’s and B’s in my SMP But scored below a 500 ? On a practice mcat ? . That’s nice for people who finished in your program , but I’m not finished with my program nor am I finished studying for the mcat so you don’t know how I will be doing Mcat wise other than I’ll be doing better than what I scored in February. I’m just giving the rundown when I took the practice exam sporadically. I only mentioned the difference in scores to say that the SMP is helping because I took a practice exam in august(prior to the SMP) , wasn’t studying afterward. took it again in February and seen my score jump so obviously the SMP is helping. If I got a 492 on Kaplan, which already seen as more difficult than AAMC as with a least a 5 point difference, then realistically I could probably have a 497 AMCAS which means Im almost scoring slightly below the median. Once I’m done with my program and actually donate time to study for the mcat, I can definitely make it pass the 500 threshold. I have it in my heart that I can pull a 508 at least. And yes, I am saying I got accused of plagiarism when I didn’t plagiarized, neither did the other classmate . It’s not on my record but my choices were to either fail the class or fight the case. My school was very conservative and racist so obviously I wouldn’t win anyway so I took the failed grade. And referring to what you said about undergrad gpa. That’s why Dr. Ryan gray podcast said that a 3.0 GPA isn’t seen the same across the board. Because someone could have started with a poor undergrad science and seen a trend in their classes and even with making A’s and B’s their cumulative GPA is still a 3.0 or even slightly below. He urged students to still apply because maybe some schools will cut them off due to cut offs, but other schools will take a look and see the trends. That’s why he and other medical school mentors tend to be iffy on science undergrad GPA’s .

Your sGPA is all of your undergrad science courses combined, so 2.5 and then barely >3.0 in your “two undergrads” is going to be below 3.0 when averaged. And you have a plagiarism violation?! I don’t understand how being a POC plays into that IA. Are you saying you didn’t plagiarize and where wrongfully accused because you are a POC? Or that you did plagiarize but they went extra hard on you because you are a POC?

You should be scoring at least 500 if you are getting A’s and B’s in an SMP. Really anyone who has taken all their premed prereqs should be getting 495 or better. Considering <500 starts to correlate with failing out of medical school, I don’t now how this is possible. Everyone in my special master’s program who retook the MCAT was scoring 515+ after the program with multiple people 520+ with minimal studying of stuff not covered in medical school (orgo, physics, psych, etc).

 

[Med4sci]

At first, I was going to comment that he will more than likely be fine for most DO schools pending a "good" MCAT 505+. But I hadn't read his post entirely to note the IA which is what is really going to kill his app at 99% of places. A 3.34-3.4 in an SMP isn't a death sentence and with a nice MCAT you have an okay chance of getting DO interviews, but with an IA the OP should have been aiming for a 4.0 because you need to somehow overcompensate. Even then it would probably be a long shot.

What is a IA?

 

[Med4sci]

I’m not saying I only got 1 A in the program. I will have 3 A’s and 5 B’s by the end of the program. I may actually have 4A’s and 4B’s by the end of this program if end of with an A in physio

 

[YCAGA]

You don’t see how what is possible ? . That I’m getting A’s and B’s in my SMP But scored below a 500 ? On a practice mcat ? . That’s nice for people who finished in your program , but I’m not finished with my program nor am I finished studying for the mcat so you don’t know how I will be doing Mcat wise other than I’ll be doing better than what I scored in February. I’m just giving the rundown when I took the practice exam sporadically. I only mentioned the difference in scores to say that the SMP is helping because I took a practice exam in august(prior to the SMP) , wasn’t studying afterward. took it again in February and seen my score jump so obviously the SMP is helping. If I got a 492 on Kaplan, which already seen as more difficult than AAMC as with a least a 5 point difference, then realistically I could probably have a 497 AMCAS which means Im almost scoring slightly below the median. Once I’m done with my program and actually donate time to study for the mcat, I can definitely make it pass the 500 threshold. I have it in my heart that I can pull a 508 at least. And yes, I am saying I got accused of plagiarism when I didn’t plagiarized, neither did the other classmate . It’s not on my record but my choices were to either fail the class or fight the case. My school was very conservative and racist so obviously I wouldn’t win anyway so I took the failed grade. And referring to what you said about undergrad gpa. That’s why Dr. Ryan gray podcast said that a 3.0 GPA isn’t seen the same across the board. Because someone could have started with a poor undergrad science and seen a trend in their classes and even with making A’s and B’s their cumulative GPA is still a 3.0 or even slightly below. He urged students to still apply because maybe some schools will cut them off due to cut offs, but other schools will take a look and see the trends. That’s why he and other medical school mentors tend to be iffy on science undergrad GPA’s .

A sGPA of 2.5 to 3.0 and then an SMP GPA of 3.3 is technically an upward trend, you’re right. But it’s like improving someone’s blood pressure from 60/40 to 100/60 with massive doses of pressors and then declaring they are stable and ready for discharge.

 

[Med4sci]

I'm curious why are applicants expected to 4.0 their SMP.
Isn't it suppose to be the same rigor as first year of medical school or is it easier?

lol they aren’t but it just really well if you’re able to get a 4.0 . It is also why if you perform a 3.3 in this program you get interviews to at least 2 DO medical schools .

 

[Med4sci]

An IA plus a sub 3.0 sGPA plus they are on track for MAYBE breaking 500 on their MCAT.

It is criminal that SMP’s accept students without an MCAT that is at least above the DO average. What if you do an SMP and then can never do well enough on the MCAT? $60k+ down the drain. Personally I strongly recommend against an SMP unless someone has an MCAT >510, and >515 if you want it to be more of a calculated risk than a straight up Hail Mary.

I’m trying to understand where did you conclude I will “ MAYBE” break a 500🤔... I have yet to donate actual time to study the mcat

 

[Flareicus]

What is a IA?

Institutional action. It means your school took an an action against you regarding unacceptable behavior. For applications, they range from relatively benign (single episode of underage drinking, improper cleanliness of dorms) to significantly hindering (academic integrity IAs, cheating/plagarism), to absolutely disqualifying (violence against other students, sexual assault).

If your professor failed you because they believed you plagiarized a paper, I would be shocked if there isn't something on your transcript reporting the incident. You need to verify with that school what is on your transcript. If you say you don't have any, and there's a plagiarism IA, med schools will rescind your acceptance after seeing your transcript.

 

[Med4sci]

A sGPA of 2.5 to 3.0 and then an SMP GPA of 3.3 is technically an upward trend, you’re right. But it’s like improving someone’s blood pressure from 60/40 to 100/60 with massive doses of pressors and then declaring they are stable and ready for discharge.

If that’s the case why are people still getting in it

Institutional action. It means your school took an an action against you regarding unacceptable behavior. For applications, they range from relatively benign (single episode of underage drinking, improper cleanliness of dorms) to significantly hindering (academic integrity IAs, cheating/plagarism), to absolutely disqualifying (violence against other students, sexual assault).

If your professor failed you because they believed you plagiarized a paper, I would be shocked if there isn't something on your transcript reporting the incident. You need to verify with that school what is on your transcript. If you say you don't have any, and there's a plagiarism IA, med schools will rescind your acceptance after seeing your transcript.

i consider a Low C as failing because it was a major (psychology )course . However nothing on my transcript about that says IA . I know what’s on my transcript and what’s in my file.

 

[YCAGA]

I’m trying to understand where did you conclude I will “ MAYBE” break a 500🤔... I have yet to donate actual time to study the mcat

If you can’t break 125 on the bio section after almost a year of medical school classes, I am confident in saying you will struggle to break 500. So unless your 492 somehow includes a 125+ bio/biochem section, you haven’t been retaining your SMP info at all.

 

[Med4sci]

If that’s the case why are people still getting in it

i consider a Low C as failing because it was a major (psychology )course . However nothing on my transcript about that says IA . I know what’s on my transcript and what’s in my file.

I said I can either fail the class or fight the case meaning I can accept such a low C or argue my case. I knew I didn’t have a leg to stand on. He wasn’t doing me a favor. I’m not expected to speak Ebonics in a research paper but he assumed it wasn’t my voice . Which didn’t make a lick of sense to me . Anyhow . Point is nothing is on my transcript about academic dishonesty

 

[Med4sci]

If you can’t break 125 on the bio section after almost a year of medical school classes, I am confident in saying you will struggle to break 500. So unless your 492 somehow includes a 125+ bio/biochem section, you haven’t been retaining your SMP info at all.

I also appreciate your opinion and sharing your stats about people you know in your small circle . I’m still applying next cycle.Actually that bio/biochem is my favorite section. I tutor biochemistry and genetics.

 

[YCAGA]

I also appreciate your opinion and sharing your stats about people you know in your small circle . I’m still applying next cycle.Actually that bio/biochem is my favorite section. I tutor biochemistry and genetics.

Cool. I also tutor the MCAT and scored in the top percentile myself. I wouldn’t even accept a client who was scoring in the low 490s after completing most of an SMP because I would be taking their money for little chance of improving to a DO-level score.

Update us this fall and let us know how your cycle is going. I am curious to see what happens.

 

[over]

do you think students who did SMP perform better? they basically pre studied and already proven to perform well in med school setting.

@YCAGA really curious ngl

 

[Goro]

I have never seen a reinventor get in below 3.9 tbh. Fine maybe not 4.0, but you get what I mean. Above 3.5 is still very high for med school caliber courses.

I have. 3.7+ can get one into an MD school.

3.5 can do it for DO.

 

[Goro]

It is criminal that SMP’s accept students without an MCAT that is at least above the DO average. What if you do an SMP and then can never do well enough on the MCAT? $60k+ down the drain. Personally I strongly recommend against an SMP unless someone has an MCAT >510, and >515 if you want it to be more of a calculated risk than a straight up Hail Mary.

Surprisingly, with SMPs vs the MCAT, we find that the MCAT doesn't matter IF the student does well in the SMP. We have a threshold where we will not interview our own SMP students if they have too low an MCAT, or no MCAT. They are expect to (re)take the exam and score well.

In other words, a strong SMP performance tells us that a student can handle our curriculum, despite a low (to a point MCAT).

do you think students who did SMP perform better? they basically pre studied and already proven to perform well in med school setting.

We have tons of internal data that strong SMP students do equally well in our COM; median SMP students do median in the COM and weak SMP students gGPA of <3.3 not merely do weakly in the COM, but actively struggle to the point of failing out or having to and/or failing Boards and/or repeat a year. I mentioned this in my first response the OP as to why they're on shaky ground. One is expected to ace an SMP, not Beece it. Face it, there is a finite limit for some people in terms of academic firepower.

 

[Med4sci]

Cool. I also tutor the MCAT and scored in the top percentile myself. I wouldn’t even accept a client who was scoring in the low 490s after completing most of an SMP because I would be taking their money for little chance of improving to a DO-level score.

Update us this fall and let us know how your cycle is going. I am curious to see what happens.

Cool. I also tutor the MCAT and scored in the top percentile myself. I wouldn’t even accept a client who was scoring in the low 490s after completing most of an SMP because I would be taking their money for little chance of improving to a DO-level score.

Update us this fall and let us know how your cycle is going. I am curious to see what happens.

Why would I update y’all?