Are there really too many O.D.s?

[Baloo0]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I've been reading a lot about disgruntled students and O.D.s about there being an oversaturated market. Is this REALLY accurate or are we just complaining because we can't get that perfect job in the one particular area of the country we wanted to live? (e.g. California, or a major metro area)

I'm looking at Pacific College of Optometry and I love the Pacific Northwest. Between Oregon and Washington that is the only Optometry school, so am I really going to struggle finding a job between two states that has one school between them?

I realize that working in a private practice with an Ophthalmologist doing largely medical exams (diabetic retinopathy, cataracts, macular degeneration, etc.) rather than pushing glasses and contact lens fitting might be few and far between. But aren't there other areas/ specialties growing? (e.g. vision therapy, sports vision, working alongside an OT even with vision therapy, etc.)

 

[q1we3]

It depends, there is never enough good job in any field. You have to out compete others for the good jobs. You have to network during schools, do a residency, and move somewhere other than California or any desirable states.

 

[optsuker]

Several studies showed that there would be an oversupply for the next 15+ years, and that was before 4 new (and totally unnecessary) schools opened.

I'm an advisor for a local college's pre-op club and help new OD's seek jobs as well.
It's already tough for a new grad to find a good full-time position. It will be nearly impossible in another 5 years.

Many of the new grads I've assisted are working 1-2 days here, 1-2 days there (with no benefits). Many of the 2010 grads still aren't working full-time. Sad!

I expect corporate sites will have the equivelent to a reverse bidding war: Finding out who is willing to accept the lowest rate among a herd of desparate OD's.

There's a growing backlash against the new programs as well. A lot of senior OD's refusing to consider anyone from Midwestern, Western, Rosenberg. The new Mass. school seems especially bad.

These schools are watering down the quality of all OD's and anyone who actually went to one is viewed as the bottom of the barrel & shouldn't have gotten into ANY school.

 

[Gigan988]

Several studies showed that there would be an oversupply for the next 15+ years, and that was before 4 new (and totally unnecessary) schools opened.

I'm an advisor for a local college's pre-op club and help new OD's seek jobs as well.
It's already tough for a new grad to find a good full-time position. It will be nearly impossible in another 5 years.

Many of the new grads I've assisted are working 1-2 days here, 1-2 days there (with no benefits). Many of the 2010 grads still aren't working full-time. Sad!

I expect corporate sites will have the equivelent to a reverse bidding war: Finding out who is willing to accept the lowest rate among a herd of desparate OD's.

There's a growing backlash against the new programs as well. A lot of senior OD's refusing to consider anyone from Midwestern, Western, Rosenberg. The new Mass. school seems especially bad.

These schools are watering down the quality of all OD's and anyone who actually went to one is viewed as the bottom of the barrel & shouldn't have gotten into ANY school.

I find it insulting that I am a 3.90 GPA student involved in AOSA, Beta Sigma Kappa, NORA, and COVD, excelling at school, providing patient care at clinic as a second year, and you presume I'm at the "bottom of the barrel & shouldn't have gotten into ANY school" because I go to WesternU.

There is an oversaturation of O.D.s, but not uniformly across the country.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Several studies showed that there would be an oversupply for the next 15+ years, and that was before 4 new (and totally unnecessary) schools opened.

I'm an advisor for a local college's pre-op club and help new OD's seek jobs as well.
It's already tough for a new grad to find a good full-time position. It will be nearly impossible in another 5 years.

Many of the new grads I've assisted are working 1-2 days here, 1-2 days there (with no benefits). Many of the 2010 grads still aren't working full-time. Sad!

I expect corporate sites will have the equivelent to a reverse bidding war: Finding out who is willing to accept the lowest rate among a herd of desparate OD's.

There's a growing backlash against the new programs as well. A lot of senior OD's refusing to consider anyone from Midwestern, Western, Rosenberg. The new Mass. school seems especially bad.

These schools are watering down the quality of all OD's and anyone who actually went to one is viewed as the bottom of the barrel & shouldn't have gotten into ANY school.

It varies greatly on the state you practice in. All studies show a greater need for optometrists for the better well-being of the general population especially in rural areas (which sadly, the incentive has recently been cut, but may change in the future). http://sphhs.gwu.edu/departments/he...ation_3BB675B8-5056-9D20-3D15A105FED7198B.pdf

By the way, my science GPA from undergrad was a 3.8. I scored a cumulative OAT over a 330 and chose to attend MCPHS because of its program and emphasis on patient interaction. I was taught in an ophthalmology/optometry dual practice clinic for 3 years prior to attending. To consider those attending new schools "bottom of the barrel" is ignorant and unprofessional coming from a doctor. The doctors that complain about new doctors entering the market are afraid of being bested and losing patients. Good doctors are successful because of their patients. Patients don't leave doctors who fulfill their needs. Starting a new private practice obviously has its difficulties, but there are many avenues for eye doctors and it doesn't end at Wal Mart or Lens Crafters.

 

[q1we3]

It varies greatly on the state you practice in. All studies show a greater need for optometrists for the better well-being of the general population especially in rural areas (which sadly, the incentive has recently been cut, but may change in the future). http://sphhs.gwu.edu/departments/he...ation_3BB675B8-5056-9D20-3D15A105FED7198B.pdf

By the way, my science GPA from undergrad was a 3.8. I scored a cumulative OAT over a 330 and chose to attend MCPHS because of its program and emphasis on patient interaction. I was taught in an ophthalmology/optometry dual practice clinic for 3 years prior to attending. To consider those attending new schools "bottom of the barrel" is ignorant and unprofessional coming from a doctor. The doctors that complain about new doctors entering the market are afraid of being bested and losing patients. Good doctors are successful because of their patients. Patients don't leave doctors who fulfill their needs. Starting a new private practice obviously has its difficulties, but there are many avenues for eye doctors and it doesn't end at Wal Mart or Lens Crafters.

You made a mistake should have gone with more reputable school.

 

[eyeguy4life]

You made a mistake should have gone with more reputable school.

This school has existed and excelled in its other programs for almost two centuries. I am not worried about it bombing this program.

 

[q1we3]

This school has existed and excelled in its other programs for almost two centuries. I am not worried about it bombing this program.

That's not the point, you are not in other programs. You are in the newly started optometry program. It takes time to prefect or tweak a curriculum to reach maximum efficiency. First graduates are the test subjects and I don't think the program is accredited yet. Its students like you that keep supporting these newer schools leading to more and more schools. Then you complain about oversupply. Why couldn't you go to any of the established schools? There are plenty. When ODs say they hate new schools they include the graduates from these schools.

 

[eyeguy4life]

I haven't complained about oversupply... What does it matter what school you go to? If you pass boards like a boss, in the end the result is the same. I've never met an OD that complains about the training of new doctors until seeing posts on this site.

 

[Optomchick]

unless you live nearby and would save money by living at home...this is insane 0_0 what if there's a delay in MCPHS getting accredited? Being the first class...you guys will be screwed.

 

[eyeguy4life]

unless you live nearby and would save money by living at home...this is insane 0_0 what if there's a delay in MCPHS getting accredited? Being the first class...you guys will be screwed.

all the first class has to do is graduate, and the school gets their full accreditation. that is the only requirement they have yet to meet for obvious reasons.the school's accreditation is the last thing im worried about.

 

[KHE]

It varies greatly on the state you practice in. All studies show a greater need for optometrists for the better well-being of the general population especially in rural areas (which sadly, the incentive has recently been cut, but may change in the future). http://sphhs.gwu.edu/departments/he...ation_3BB675B8-5056-9D20-3D15A105FED7198B.pdf

By the way, my science GPA from undergrad was a 3.8. I scored a cumulative OAT over a 330 and chose to attend MCPHS because of its program and emphasis on patient interaction. I was taught in an ophthalmology/optometry dual practice clinic for 3 years prior to attending. To consider those attending new schools "bottom of the barrel" is ignorant and unprofessional coming from a doctor. The doctors that complain about new doctors entering the market are afraid of being bested and losing patients. Good doctors are successful because of their patients. Patients don't leave doctors who fulfill their needs. Starting a new private practice obviously has its difficulties, but there are many avenues for eye doctors and it doesn't end at Wal Mart or Lens Crafters.

I didn't read that study in it's entirety but it seems like it's saying that because most community health centers don't have eye care providers that there is a shortage of eye care providers.

That's like saying "because there is no optometrist in every 7/11, there is a shortage of optometrists." It's absurd.

There is a large supply of optometrists throughout the nation. Multiple studies have shown this and those same studies also predicted a large oversupply for the next 25 years EVEN BEFORE A SINGLE NEW SCHOOL OPENED.

I defy anyone to point out any area of the country where one can not get a routine eye exam within two days and within one hours drive. There is none. For some reason, ASCO and the schools seem to have this notion in their head that if an 85 year old with advanced macular degeneration can't get a same day low vision evaluation in rural Montana, there is an unmet demand and therefore, new schools should be opened. *barf*

Also, patients won't leave doctors who are fulfilling their needs as long as the doctor is on their insurance plan. Once the doctor is NOT on a patients insurance plan, 97% of patients will leave no matter how much they may have liked you or how much you have done to help them.

 

[eyeguy4life]

I didn't read that study in it's entirety but it seems like it's saying that because most community health centers don't have eye care providers that there is a shortage of eye care providers.

That's like saying "because there is no optometrist in every 7/11, there is a shortage of optometrists." It's absurd.

There is a large supply of optometrists throughout the nation. Multiple studies have shown this and those same studies also predicted a large oversupply for the next 25 years EVEN BEFORE A SINGLE NEW SCHOOL OPENED.

I defy anyone to point out any area of the country where one can not get a routine eye exam within two days and within one hours drive. There is none. For some reason, ASCO and the schools seem to have this notion in their head that if an 85 year old with advanced macular degeneration can't get a same day low vision evaluation in rural Montana, there is an unmet demand and therefore, new schools should be opened. *barf*

Also, patients won't leave doctors who are fulfilling their needs as long as the doctor is on their insurance plan. Once the doctor is NOT on a patients insurance plan, 97% of patients will leave no matter how much they may have liked you or how much you have done to help them.

I only used that article as an example. There are many on both sides of the argument. Some studies are saying there is an over abundance and some are saying there aren't enough to provide care for all of the patients that will be newly provided insurance under Obama care etc etc. Obviously patients will likely leave if you stop accepting their insurance or the carrier drops you, and with more doctors (at least where I'm from) refusing to accept Medicare and Medicaid programs (for legitimate reasons) there is an increasing patient demographic having difficulty getting care. By the time I graduate, the practice I worked at will have more than double the doctors hired just to keep up with patient load; both primary care and surgery. Like I said before, the need varies state to state.

 

[q1we3]

all the first class has to do is graduate, and the school gets their full accreditation. that is the only requirement they have yet to meet for obvious reasons.the school's accreditation is the last thing im worried about.

you will be graduating from one of worst programs in the country

 

[eyeguy4life]

you will be graduating from one of worst programs in the country

Thank you for confirming that death and taxes are no longer the only certainties in life... the overwhelming existence of ignorant people is obviously a close third.

 

[KHE]

I only used that article as an example. There are many on both sides of the argument. Some studies are saying there is an over abundance and some are saying there aren't enough to provide care for all of the patients that will be newly provided insurance under Obama care etc etc. Obviously patients will likely leave if you stop accepting their insurance or the carrier drops you, and with more doctors (at least where I'm from) refusing to accept Medicare and Medicaid programs (for legitimate reasons) there is an increasing patient demographic having difficulty getting care. By the time I graduate, the practice I worked at will have more than double the doctors hired just to keep up with patient load; both primary care and surgery. Like I said before, the need varies state to state.

The studies suggesting an undersupply are entirely based on a false premise.

They essentially say that there would be an undersupply IF every single person in the USA got a comprehensive eye examination on an annual basis (which they don't) and IF every single person in the USA got that comprehensive examination from an optometrist (which they don't) then there would be an undersupply.

Obviously, every person in the USA having an annual eye exam from an optometrist exclusively is a non-starter.

Obamacare is also a non-starter with respect to increasing optometric demand. There are 300 million people in this country and there are 20, 30, 40 million uninsured who may stand to have benefits under Obamacare. So if every single one of those people got an annual eye exam (from an optometrist, mind you) then you would talk about an increase in demand of about 10%.

Yet with 5 new schools, we have increased production of providers by 52%. So a 52% increase in supply of providers to accommodate a (at MAX) 10% increase in demand. Makes no sense.

Also, even for people not insured, eyecare is affordable. You can get a walk in appointment with an optometrist in most locations in the country for around $50 at your local commercial establishment whether it be a Walmart, Lenscrafters, Eyemasters, Pearle (whatever....)

Obamacare is not going to unleash this massive pent up demand for optometric services.

 

[Dusn]

Out of curiosity, why don't more optoms go into low-vision? The low-vision specialist (optometrist) that I send patients too has at least a 4 month wait list.

Since I know that jobs are scarce for ophthalmologists, including many sub-specialists; I'm assuming they'd be very scarce for optometrists as well. 5 new optometry schools with a 52% increase in graduates is completely unnecessary and ridiculous.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

Out of curiosity, why don't more optoms go into low-vision? The low-vision specialist (optometrist) that I send patients too has at least a 4 month wait list.

How does a low-vision rehab optometrist compare with occupational therapists certified in vision therapy (or other any other professional of the like)?

I'm leaning towards a PM&R specialty and am having a hard determining what one brings to the table over another.

You could chalk it up to my ignorance, but it seems like the abilities and role of an optometrist (outside the obvious refractions and handling of primary ocular care) are not well understood by the medical community.

 

[Jason K]

Thank you for confirming that death and taxes are no longer the only certainties in life... the overwhelming existence of ignorant people is obviously a close third.

Dude - you can kick and scream all you want, but the fact is, he's right. You'll be graduating from an unaccredited, unproven program. It takes years for a program to work out its kinks. Externships are one of the hardest things to get right. There will be externships that will be cut after one year, due to the lack of quality experience (or worse, they'll be left in place because there's nothing else to replace them). The first students through the pipeline will be the ones who test the waters. Your best bet is to be very careful, if you have the opportunity, to select externships that are going to provide good training. VAs are usually (not always) good sites. Some private and school-affiliated sites are sink-holes in which you'll spend your days waiting around for patients to no show.

You need to be objective. That's the biggest problem I see on this site. You guys put your emotion into the info on here, and get all up in a hussy ruffle about things which don't necessarily reflect on you. You may be a stellar student, with good grades, and a solid record, but you're still in a school that has a class filled with below-average students. Sorry, but I've see the stats on the new programs. Their students are a lower tier, on average, than most of the more established programs. Be objective about it.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Dude - you can kick and scream all you want, but the fact is, he's right. You'll be graduating from an unaccredited, unproven program. It takes years for a program to work out its kinks. Externships are one of the hardest things to get right. There will be externships that will be cut after one year, due to the lack of quality experience (or worse, they'll be left in place because there's nothing else to replace them). The first students through the pipeline will be the ones who test the waters. Your best bet is to be very careful, if you have the opportunity, to select externships that are going to provide good training. VAs are usually (not always) good sites. Some private and school-affiliated sites are sink-holes in which you'll spend your days waiting around for patients to no show.

You need to be objective. That's the biggest problem I see on this site. You guys put your emotion into the info on here, and get all up in a hussy ruffle about things which don't necessarily reflect on you. You may be a stellar student, with good grades, and a solid record, but you're still in a school that has a class filled with below-average students. Sorry, but I've see the stats on the new programs. Their students are a lower tier, on average, than most of the more established programs. Be objective about it.

There is nothing objective about making assumptions about students and a school you haven't been to. I already know where I'd like to do two externships. One is a VA, I've heard they are generally good. The other is the practice I will likely partner at when I graduate. I know new programs have issues, but the school as a whole is not new to health care programs and accreditation. When the first class takes boards, then you can make an objective remark about it.

 

[Jason K]

There is nothing objective about making assumptions about students and a school you haven't been to. I already know where I'd like to do two externships. One is a VA, I've heard they are generally good. The other is the practice I will likely partner at when I graduate. I know new programs have issues, but the school as a whole is not new to health care programs and accreditation. When the first class takes boards, then you can make an objective remark about it.

I don't remember telling anyone that I've never been to MCPHS. I've seen the stats on the students at all the new programs, and I've had a chance to meet/work with students from several of the newer programs. They're lower than average, in both professional appearance, and academic ability. Sorry. The sooner you recognize that, the sooner you'll be able to deal with it. If you bury your head in the sand, you'll regret it. I see it with every class that graduates.

 

[q1we3]

Love how he says I choose MCHS because its EMPHASIS ON PATIENT INTERACTION. I mean really? Did you actually say that? What do think other schools who have been running for several decades are doing?? Talk about ignorance.

 

[Optogal]

Made a comment here - but realized it was inaccurate. Deleted.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Love how he says I choose MCHS because its EMPHASIS ON PATIENT INTERACTION. I mean really? Did you actually say that? What do think other schools who have been running for several decades are doing?? Talk about ignorance.

The majority of programs don't start clinic hours until 2nd year or later. Just a general statement, no need for capital letters or getting heated over it haha.

 

[Optomchick]

The majority of programs don't start clinic hours until 2nd year or later. Just a general statement, no need for capital letters or getting heated over it haha.

I go to a new program, so clearly I believe that with hardwork the school will be accredited, but I don't think you understand the risks of being THE FIRST CLASS. Also, it's not THAT easy to be accredited, Western had to make a lot of changes during each visit. You also won't have ANY alumni. I talk to the upper classmen A LOT to get their opinions and knowledge on certain professors/classes and clerkships.

 

[eyeguy4life]

I go to a new program, so clearly I believe that with hardwork the school will be accredited, but I don't think you understand the risks of being THE FIRST CLASS. Also, it's not THAT easy to be accredited, Western had to make a lot of changes during each visit. You also won't have ANY alumni. I talk to the upper classmen A LOT to get their opinions and knowledge on certain professors/classes and clerkships.

The difficulties of being part of the first class are mine to deal with. I understand the risks just fine.In the end, my result will be the same as anyone else. No need to scrutinize me for being willing to deal with any of the challenges I may face which have no effect on your education. As students we all have the same end goal. Any bumps in the road are just another part of the journey.

 

[hello07]

eyeguy4life, where did you go to undergard ? Why did you choose Optometry as a career if you don't mind me asking? Seems you are the untraditional student (not right after undergard into Optometry)that you entered MCPHS. With such a high GPA do you have any understanding the field you are entering? Reading your comments, makes me want to believe "you're not all there buddy."
Patient interacting in your first year? Sooooooooooooooooo, what have you learned in these first few months for you to interact with patients at the newly open school?

 

[eyeguy4life]

I graduated with a dual major in marketing and public relations, obviously not a science degree. I got a job shortly after working as a clinical and surgical tech for an optometry/ophthalmology dual practice.I worked there for 3 years while I finished the science prerequs to apply to school, either DO or OD. Chose OD because I didn't want to do surgery. While in school again, I actually studied more for what the doctors were giving me for hw than my actual classes. They taught me a great deal about pathology etc, and I got a rough intro into how the whole insurance game runs, super fun... Anyway, it was a great experience, they treated me more like a resident than a tech and I came away blessed with a good education. This semester I have performed entry testing (cover/uncover, eoms, pupils etc) on about 170 patients for screening. Few OCTs and fundus photos, case histories, the usual things I did when I was working. After break I should be able to do my retinoscopy proficiency so I can start streaking. Should be sweet.

Anyway, "buddy", guess "I'm not all there" because I know what I want and where I am going in my career after graduation. I've seen more pathology and a greater number of patients working than I will at any school. Sure, I could have gone off with the popular kids, but why not try something new? It's all education, and in the end the board exams will separate the talkers from the doers.

 

[hello07]

Congratulations to you! Best wishes on your academic and clinical endeavors.

🙂

 

[Tippytoe]

Excellent. Another thread where students are telling the experienced doctors that they don't know what they are talking about. I LOVE it. It's just like talking to my 9 year old about how he wants to build a time-traveling space ship to travel to Jupiter. At some point you just have to ignore logic and say "okay, you're right".

There IS A VAST OVERSUPPY OF ODs IN THE US-----and it is getting worse. Income is going down. Stress is going up. Costs are increasing while reimbursements haven't increased in the 15 years I've been practicing. On-line eyewear is exploding. It's not a pretty future. Not for most in the medical field. Worse for ODs because we are actually allowing it to happen to a certain extent. Years ago dentistry shut down some of their schools and they controlled the opening of others. They are in great shape (primarily because dentistry have no medical counterpart to compete with). Optometry did nothing to protect itself and now we are screwed.

We've had an oversupply for at least 15 years. But previously we could always fall back on the notion of "well, I can always work at Walmart if things don't work out". But now, even that pathetic option is running low. There just isn't enough jobs or areas of unmet need in the US to provide meaningful work for so many more ODs.

And for the poster that asked why more ODs don't do low vision, it's because Medicare (and other insurances) will not pay for it. So you are left trying to sell high dollar low-vision devices (even 'at cost' they are expensive) to old people with no job/money because, well, they can't see.

So its just not financially viable. Which is why we usually only see Low Vision (and vision therapy) 'clinics' in teaching hospitals and schools where it's gov't subsidized.

[ Here is where we get a bunch of students to tell us how us practicing ODs don't know what we are talking about again because their teachers and the AOA says there is a booming market for ODs to provide Low Vision and Vision Therapy and Sports Vision, blah, blah, blah and we are just stupid for not providing these great and needed services......blah, blah,blah...... ]

 

[hello07]

Well said Tippytoe. From 16 US Optometry Schools when I graduated to now 20 and another one in Virginia perhaps on the way to open. The AOA should be ashamed of itself for this! They have done nothing to protect the interest of 35,000 plus practicing ODs. The past 3-4 new schools should NEVER have been opened. But, its greed -profit making what it's all about. Throw in board certification ABO backed up by the AOA- and we have an uphill battle dividing us like NEVER before. The AOA journal is no longer published. We have become a disgrace of a profession thanks to the few of our elite leaders wishing to quench their own thirst at the expense of thousands of others.
Why have 4 new schools opened up the past 4-5 years ?
Salaries have been stagnant whether you are self emloyed or employed on W2 or 1099's -in any mode of practice.
Reimbursements are pathetic even from the best insurance vouchers -VSP, eyemed, etc.....


IMO- someone needs to step up and "clean house" among our AOA leaders.
Furthermore, several past AOA members and their books -finances need to be investigated .............

Listen to Jason K and few others here- Optometry will not necessarily be what you might envision. And the few who do work in VA's, hospital, clinics...........it's not always easy getting in there. I know- I've worked before in one of them.


Wake up people..................................................

 

[Jason K]

I Chose OD because I didn't want to do surgery.

This will likely go down as one of the most colossal judgmental errors of the 21st century. If I had a dollar for every OD who's told me "I chose optometry because I didn't want to go to medical school," and then ended up regretting it because they found out what optometry really is all about these days, I'd be retired on a beach already.

I've seen more pathology and a greater number of patients working than I will at any school.

That's wonderful - it's too bad that the new ODs of the future will basically be working as a glorified techs, as most new grads are doing these days. Line up 100 new grads from last year and ask them what they're doing. The majority are refracting, refracting, refracting, and doing little else, "Just for a while, until I can find something better." What your school teaches you, and what you'll actually be doing after graduation, are two very different things.

Sure, I could have gone off with the popular kids, but why not try something new? It's all education, and in the end the board exams will separate the talkers from the doers.

Unfortunately, you think as most any 1st year student thinks - that boards actually matter. No one will care what you did on boards. I've never heard of an OD interviewing for a position, and being asked, "So, how'd you do on boards?" What matters is your performance, specifically, how much money you can bring in, and your personality.

I've never heard of a bank saying, "Well, we love your business plan and we love you, but your board scores were kinda low, so we're not going to approve your business loan."

If you focus on NBEO performance as a means to your salvation, you will be smoked in ways you can't even imagine.

I feel for you, rough rider. I can only hope that more and more students realize that choosing an OD these days is a losing proposition. There are tens of millions of dollars being spent on tuition, fattening the wallets of these new OD programs, while students basically enslave themselves to a career that can't support its own weight.

Like all Deans, I'm sure Dr. Walls gave you guys a hearty "You're entering optometry at the MOST EXCITING time in history!" speech, on the first day of classes. I'm sure he was rubbing his hands together, looking out at all the piles of cash that were sitting in front of him as he rambled on about things which he knows are not true. Just think, the amount of money you'll be paying back for the next 25 years will fund his salary for about 6 months, I'm guessing. You might want to remember that when you're flipping dials next to the lawnmowers.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Well said Tippytoe. From 16 US Optometry Schools when I graduated to now 20 and another one in Virginia perhaps on the way to open. The AOA should be ashamed of itself for this! They have done nothing to protect the interest of 35,000 plus practicing ODs. The past 3-4 new schools should NEVER have been opened. But, its greed -profit making what it's all about. Throw in board certification ABO backed up by the AOA- and we have an uphill battle dividing us like NEVER before. The AOA journal is no longer published. We have become a disgrace of a profession thanks to the few of our elite leaders wishing to quench their own thirst at the expense of thousands of others.
Why have 4 new schools opened up the past 4-5 years ?
Salaries have been stagnant whether you are self emloyed or employed on W2 or 1099's -in any mode of practice.
Reimbursements are pathetic even from the best insurance vouchers -VSP, eyemed, etc.....


IMO- someone needs to step up and "clean house" among our AOA leaders.
Furthermore, several past AOA members and their books -finances need to be investigated .............

Listen to Jason K and few others here- Optometry will not necessarily be what you might envision. And the few who do work in VA's, hospital, clinics...........it's not always easy getting in there. I know- I've worked before in one of them.


Wake up people..................................................

How much of your patients are seen on a vision plan vs medical? Just curious for a comparison... The practice I came out of saw about 70% Medicare patients. The majority of the other 30-ish percent was also medical.

 

[KHE]

Well said Tippytoe. From 16 US Optometry Schools when I graduated to now 20 and another one in Virginia perhaps on the way to open. The AOA should be ashamed of itself for this! They have done nothing to protect the interest of 35,000 plus practicing ODs. The past 3-4 new schools should NEVER have been opened. But, its greed -profit making what it's all about. Throw in board certification ABO backed up by the AOA- and we have an uphill battle dividing us like NEVER before. The AOA journal is no longer published. We have become a disgrace of a profession thanks to the few of our elite leaders wishing to quench their own thirst at the expense of thousands of others.
Why have 4 new schools opened up the past 4-5 years ?
Salaries have been stagnant whether you are self emloyed or employed on W2 or 1099's -in any mode of practice.
Reimbursements are pathetic even from the best insurance vouchers -VSP, eyemed, etc.....


IMO- someone needs to step up and "clean house" among our AOA leaders.
Furthermore, several past AOA members and their books -finances need to be investigated .............

Listen to Jason K and few others here- Optometry will not necessarily be what you might envision. And the few who do work in VA's, hospital, clinics...........it's not always easy getting in there. I know- I've worked before in one of them.


Wake up people..................................................

Regarding the AOA, what would you have had them do to prevent these new schools? What do you think they could have done?

 

[eyeguy4life]

This will likely go down as one of the most colossal judgmental errors of the 21st century. If I had a dollar for every OD who's told me "I chose optometry because I didn't want to go to medical school," and then ended up regretting it because they found out what optometry really is all about these days, I'd be retired on a beach already.




That's wonderful - it's too bad that the new ODs of the future will basically be working as a glorified techs, as most new grads are doing these days. Line up 100 new grads from last year and ask them what they're doing. The majority are refracting, refracting, refracting, and doing little else, "Just for a while, until I can find something better." What your school teaches you, and what you'll actually be doing after graduation, are two very different things.



Unfortunately, you think as most any 1st year student thinks - that boards actually matter. No one will care what you did on boards. I've never heard of an OD interviewing for a position, and being asked, "So, how'd you do on boards?" What matters is your performance, specifically, how much money you can bring in, and your personality.

I've never heard of a bank saying, "Well, we love your business plan and we love you, but your board scores were kinda low, so we're not going to approve your business loan."

If you focus on NBEO performance as a means to your salvation, you will be smoked in ways you can't even imagine.

I feel for you, rough rider. I can only hope that more and more students realize that choosing an OD these days is a losing proposition. There are tens of millions of dollars being spent on tuition, fattening the wallets of these new OD programs, while students basically enslave themselves to a career that can't support its own weight.

Like all Deans, I'm sure Dr. Walls gave you guys a hearty "You're entering optometry at the MOST EXCITING time in history!" speech, on the first day of classes. I'm sure he was rubbing his hands together, looking out at all the piles of cash that were sitting in front of him as he rambled on about things which he knows are not true. You'll be paying his salary for the next 20 - 25 years.

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and that you seem to look at the profession with such disdain. Thankfully I already have been offered a partnership at a practice taking over for an ophthalmologists clinical patients so he can focus on surgery. So yes, I will get to do exactly what I want to do in a state and city that I want to be, and in a practice that has done nothing but grow for 30+ years. Sure optometry has its issues like all medical professions do, but I know where I'm going to end up and it looks pretty damn good from here.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Regarding the AOA, what would you have had them do to prevent these new schools? What do you think they could have done?

More doctors means more money for the AOA ? Heh, It'll be interesting to see over the next few years if they start trying to regulate the schools more.

 

[Jason K]

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you and that you seem to look at the profession with such disdain. Thankfully I already have been offered a partnership at a practice taking over for an ophthalmologists clinical patients so he can focus on surgery. So yes, I will get to do exactly what I want to do in a state and city that I want to be, and in a practice that has done nothing but grow for 30+ years. Sure optometry has its issues like all medical professions do, but I know where I'm going to end up and it looks pretty damn good from here.

Yikes, I hope that works out for you. Four years is a long time to wait for an associate or partner. Have you discussed the terms of the partnership? You're talking about a legal endeavor that requires a lot of attention, and it sounds to me like you think you can just roll in one day and suddenly you're a partner, and all is well. I wouldn't play all your cards on that bet, stallion - don't be surprised if what you end up with is an associate position, that COULD lead to partnership. I see that scenario play out ALL the time. What I always hear is, "I don't understand, I worked for this guy for FOUR years during optometry school, and I thought he was my friend, and all he offers me is (fill in the blank). How am I supposed to pay my loans back with only (fill in the blank)? That's not fair!" No, what's not fair is expecting to be paid more than you're worth. When the going rate for an OD is pathetically low, it's unfair to expect to be paid anything higher than that, unless you can bring something to the table. As a new grad, you won't be bringing anything to the table. Better yet, you might find that the practice decided to hire Dr Joe Shmoe while you're in your third year - couldn't wait that long.

I honestly find it hard to believe that any practice would be foolish enough to offer ownership in a practice, before you've even learned how to calculate a lens power. I have a feeling that like your view of optometry, the solidity of the offer in your head is very different from the one in reality.

The absolute worst thing you can do right now is to assume that you have your ducks in a row, and bank on this fantasy partnership you have going. Lots of things will happen in the four years while you're in school.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Yikes, I hope that works out for you. Four years is a long time to wait for an associate. Have you discussed pay? I wouldn't play all your cards on that bet, stallion - don't be surprised if you sit down with an employment contract that pays you peanuts. I see that scenario play out ALL the time. What I always hear is, "I don't understand, I worked for this guy for FOUR years, and I thought he was my friend, and all he offers me is (fill in the blank). How am I supposed to pay my loans back with only (fill in the blank)? That's not fair!" No, what's not fair is expecting to be paid more than you're worth. When the going rate for an OD is pathetically low, it's unfair to expect to be paid anything higher than that, unless you can bring something to the table. As a new grad, you won't be bringing anything to the table.

Haha. Yeah, that'd be no fun. Guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. We've talked about it. I was happy with what we discussed.

 

[Jason K]

Guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. We've talked about it. I was happy with what we discussed.

Fatal mistake made by many who have gone before you.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Fatal mistake made by many who have gone before you.

I'll be going in to work over break. I'll be sure to get something in writing 😉

 

[hello07]

Depends on what mode of optometric practice you are in when dealing with vision plans versus medical plans. The practice I'm in now it's 85-90 % vsion plans and 10% medical. However, I 've worked in practices where majority of our pts were medical plans-Medicaire (same billing as ophthalmology and testing and so forth).

The AOA could have contacted the state-city optometric associations- each leader and all their board members (NOT State Boards that issue licenses) of each state throughout the country and get together tio STOP new schools from opening up. If they really wanted to, wouldn't you believe they could have put a stop to this? Again, it's all about the money. Profit. Pumping new ODs out more than ever to so call meet the never increasing demand of eye care. Bunch of bogus.

Petition. And stop it. Go to court on the ruling of expanding new schools.

 

[Jason K]

Regarding the AOA, what would you have had them do to prevent these new schools? What do you think they could have done?

As you've said yourself, all they have to do is issue a statement saying, "We're good - optometry is full and we don't foresee a need for new ODs in the near future." There's no anti-trust concerns, no one is bashing optometry, they're just making a statement that many investors would probably perk their ears at.

 

[hello07]

Anybody knows, how members has the AOA lost during the past 2 years? Roughly, any estimate?
I'm sure the number is in the thousands but would like to know exact figure.

 

[eyeguy4life]

Are the board members of the AOA practicing doctors primarily, or do they just run the AOA? I'd think if they were practitioners they would think about this stuff similar to the majority of doctors or you guys. I definitely don't know much of anything about the AOA and all that political stuff.

 

[KHE]

More doctors means more money for the AOA ? Heh, It'll be interesting to see over the next few years if they start trying to regulate the schools more.

BWWAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HAAAAAA HHAAAA HAA HAAA!!!!

HAAA HAAA haaaaaaa *cough* *weeeze* *choke*

tee heee heeeeee ha ha haaaaaa

 

[KHE]

As you've said yourself, all they have to do is issue a statement saying, "We're good - optometry is full and we don't foresee a need for new ODs in the near future." There's no anti-trust concerns, no one is bashing optometry, they're just making a statement that many investors would probably perk their ears at.

While I have long wished that they would have issued such a statement, I'm not naive enough to think that it would have had a substantial impact on the end result. To me, it was just the fact that the AOA was doing SOMETHING and at least acknowledging a problem.

 

[Jason K]

While I have long wished that they would have issued such a statement, I'm not naive enough to think that it would have had a substantial impact on the end result. To me, it was just the fact that the AOA was doing SOMETHING and at least acknowledging a problem.

I disagree. What's driving students into this god-forsaken profession, is the fact that virtually no one will come out on paper and tell the truth. Everything they hear is a fabricated fantasy that depicts optometry's outlook as one with great promise and fortune. Western's website was quoting OD average salaries at nearly 200K/year when they first started up, until they mysteriously decided to wipe all references to salaries from their website - probably to avoid risk of being sued.

If the AOA were to begin making it clear that we do not need anymore ODs, students would begin to hear something that would differ from the barrage of nonsense they're currently getting. That would actually mean something if they heard it from the almighty AOA. It would need to become more than just a passing comment, but something that they were willing to stick to on a regular basis. That will NEVER happen - unless some AOS member were to stumble into the AOA president's position, which is about as likely as Hillary Clinton winning a "Hot Statesmen Wet TShirt Contest."

So, the farce will continue. Students will continue to wander into the profession, taking the usual course of, "Optometry is AWESOME!!" => "Optometry's pretty awesome!!" => "Optometry's cool." => "Wow, this is different than I thought, but it's ok." => "Jeez, this isn't what I signed up for." => "Holy crap, my loan payment is HOW much of my income?" => "Damn, why didn't I listen to that guy with the Chuck Norris logo who told me about all of this, years ago?" => "I wonder if Starbucks will hire me as an OD?" => optometric enlightenment.

 

[KHE]

I disagree. What's driving students into this god-forsaken profession, is the fact that virtually no one will come out on paper and tell the truth. Everything they hear is a fabricated fantasy that depicts optometry's outlook as one with great promise and fortune. Western's website was quoting OD average salaries at nearly 200K/year when they first started up, until they mysteriously decided to wipe all references to salaries from their website - probably to avoid risk of being sued.

If the AOA were to begin making it clear that we do not need anymore ODs, students would begin to hear something that would differ from the barrage of nonsense they're currently getting. That would actually mean something if they heard it from the almighty AOA. It would need to become more than just a passing comment, but something that they were willing to stick to on a regular basis. That will NEVER happen - unless some AOS member were to stumble into the AOA president's position, which is about as likely as Hillary Clinton winning a "Hot Statesmen Wet TShirt Contest."

So, the farce will continue. Students will continue to wander into the profession, taking the usual course of, "Optometry is AWESOME!!" => "Optometry's pretty awesome!!" => "Optometry's cool." => "Wow, this is different than I thought, but it's ok." => "Jeez, this isn't what I signed up for." => "Holy crap, my loan payment is HOW much of my income?" => "Damn, why didn't I listen to that guy with the Chuck Norris logo who told me about all of this, years ago?" => "I wonder if Starbucks will hire me as an OD?" => optometric enlightenment.

What I was trying to say is that while I would have preferred that the AOA issued a statement of some kind, the schools would have almost certainly opened up anyways. The AOA has limited power to affect the opening of new schools. They could have done nothing to "stop" them.

 

[Jason K]

What I was trying to say is that while I would have preferred that the AOA issued a statement of some kind, the schools would have almost certainly opened up anyways. The AOA has limited power to affect the opening of new schools. They could have done nothing to "stop" them.

Ok, but if enrollment at OD programs were to drop by 15 or 20%, it would be difficult for new schools to get off the ground. Had the AOA publicized its very expensive Workforce study, it would have been a lot harder for new schools to have secured funding for these new multimillion dollar Insta-OD programs. They chose to bury it in the basement, never to be seen again by anyone, let alone the people who might actually benefit from learning its conclusions. I've got $100 that says the next workforce study will tell us exactly what the last one did; that we have way to many ODs in the US for the current demand. It will also be buried, hidden from those who might benefit from reading it.

 

[hello07]

What I was trying to say is that while I would have preferred that the AOA issued a statement of some kind, the schools would have almost certainly opened up anyways. The AOA has limited power to affect the opening of new schools. They could have done nothing to "stop" them.

What are you talking about? "The AOA has limited power to affect the opening of new schools. They could have done nothing to stop them." You are absolutely wrong on this!
The new Presidents, the new Deans, the board members of the new optometry chools past 4-years are ODs who have been associated with the AOA - as members - Secretary, Past AOA Presidents, etc.......They are all interconnected. Like teamsters mob unit.

Think logically. L. Walls, OD, MD have nothing against our colleague has been President, and Dean of how many past OD schools? Research how many faculty on the new schools now have sat on the AOA.

They could very well have done alot NOT to open up these new schools. Again, it's all about the MONEY regardless of how many practicing ODs they affect- livelihood.