Are these red flags?

[mstpgrind]

Hi! I'm planning on applying this coming cycle and was wondering if I have red flags on my app:
1. The summer before starting undergrad, I took ~20 community college credits, including in math (calc 3, stats) and physics (physics I)
2. I have a couple pass/fails (all Ps) on my transcript during covid, and 1 W (none of these in bcpm classes)
3. I'm applying after my sophomore year of college (at 20 y/o)

Re (1): I feel like this might be an issue because I know med schools like to see rigor, but I have As in organic chem/biochem/physical chem that I took in undergrad, so I hope this is ok?
Re (2): I'm afraid this makes it seem like I can't handle the rigor of med school, but I'm hoping my 3.78c/3.85s + 522 mcat balance this out?
Re (3): I have enough volunteer hours (400 nonclinical, 550 clinical) and decent stats + 1 pub, so I'm hoping med schools don't automatically discount me just because I'm young and that my ECs kinda balance it out, but what do you guys think?

Please be super blunt/upfront with me about how big of an issue these are - I'd rather have a chance to address them now than later.

Thanks for the advice!

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[Styrene]

Definitely not unless a school specifically doesn't accept community college credits for prereqs and also count any of the classes you took at community college and didn't again take at a four-year as prereqs.

Is physics even a prereq anymore? And are there still med schools that look down on or don't accept community college credits?

 

[mstpgrind]

Definitely not unless a school specifically doesn't accept community college credits for prereqs and also count any of the classes you took at community college and didn't again take at a four-year as prereqs.

Is physics even a prereq anymore? And are there still med schools that look down on or don't accept community college credits?

I'm not really sure if med schools recently changed how they view cc credits - but I've heard they're looked at as less rigorous (or at least they were)

 

[Styrene]

But if you have that MCAT score and a good gpa and took classes like physical chemistry and organic chemistry and did well, it's irrelevant. The initial hurdle is getting by the GPA and MCAT cut-offs. You will certainly pass those at probably every school. Then your application will be looked at, and if you have other meaningful activities and a publication, and great letters of recommendation, you will get several interviews. Then if you appear mature with a good personality, open-minded, and reasonable thinking, you will be accepted. If you can demonstrate resiliency, even better (shown by the research to be the most important characteristic for medical student success, that and an IQ of at least 110-115, average being a stable 125). That's the general process, though there are nuances by school including comprehensive rankings...and a trillion other unpredictable/unknowable variables. This is from years of my obsession about the whole thing--and working closely with associate deans on various stuff and knowing a few of them quite well. Some experts here may answer you, too.

When it comes to "top ranked" schools, though, not sure. I don't have much experience with that.

I was accepted to a very good state school six years ago with multiple red flags (many Fs and Ws, DUI) and also did two full years at a community college. Reinvention story. I've written about it extensively on here, which you can see through my prior posts if interested. Did quite well all things considered. Without red flags, I believe a majority of the strong applicants are accepted each year.

Just be yourself and follow your dream. My best advice is to tell your truest story of you on the application.

Good luck!

 

[mstpgrind]

But if you have that MCAT score and a good gpa and took classes like physical chemistry and organic chemistry and did well, it's irrelevant. The initial hurdle is getting by the GPA and MCAT cut-offs. You will certainly pass those at probably every school. Then your application will be looked at, and if you have other meaningful activities and a publication, and great letters of recommendation, you will get several interviews. Then if you appear mature with a good personality, open-minded, and reasonable thinking, you will be accepted. If you can demonstrate resiliency, even better (shown by the research to be the most important characteristic for medical student success, that and an IQ of at least 110-115, average being a stable 125). That's the general process, though there are nuances by school including comprehensive rankings...and a trillion other unpredictable/unknowable variables. This is from years of my obsession about the whole thing--and working closely with associate deans on various stuff and knowing a few of them quite well. Some experts here may answer you, too.

When it comes to "top ranked" schools, though, not sure. I don't have much experience with that.

I was accepted to a very good state school six years ago with multiple red flags (many Fs and Ws, DUI) and also did two full years at a community college. Reinvention story. I've written about it extensively on here, which you can see through my prior posts if interested. Did quite well all things considered. Without red flags, I believe a majority of the strong applicants are accepted each year.

Just be yourself and follow your dream. My best advice is to tell your truest story of you on the application.

Good luck!

Thank you so much!

 

[docksan]

Hi! I'm planning on applying this coming cycle and was wondering if I have red flags on my app:
1. The summer before starting undergrad, I took ~20 community college credits, including in math (calc 3, stats) and physics (physics I)
2. I have a couple pass/fails (all Ps) on my transcript during covid, and 1 W (none of these in bcpm classes)
3. I'm applying after my sophomore year of college (at 20 y/o)

Re (1): I feel like this might be an issue because I know med schools like to see rigor, but I have As in organic chem/biochem/physical chem that I took in undergrad, so I hope this is ok?
Re (2): I'm afraid this makes it seem like I can't handle the rigor of med school, but I'm hoping my 3.78c/3.85s + 522 mcat balance this out?
Re (3): I have enough volunteer hours (400 nonclinical, 550 clinical) and decent stats + 1 pub, so I'm hoping med schools don't automatically discount me just because I'm young and that my ECs kinda balance it out, but what do you guys think?

Please be super blunt/upfront with me about how big of an issue these are - I'd rather have a chance to address them now than later.

Thanks for the advice!

I have 3 Fs, 2Ds, and multiple Cs on my college transcripts and am now a resident.

It's not about your failures, it's about your process for owning and overcoming them. How do you think and reason through a problem? Can you connect with people? Can you handle the pressure and humility of failure and work hard to overcome it?

That's what the rigor of medical school is about.

 

[mstpgrind]

I have 3 Fs, 2Ds, and multiple Cs on my college transcripts and am now a resident.

It's not about your failures, it's about your process for owning and overcoming them. How do you think and reason through a problem? Can you connect with people? Can you handle the pressure and humility of failure and work hard to overcome it?

That's what the rigor of medical school is about.

yeah 100%

So you don’t think med schools would screen me out because of these?

 

[docksan]

yeah 100%

So you don’t think med schools would screen me out because of these?

Of course some will, but the right med school for you won't. The same can be said for residencies.

After all, you want to be somewhere where you're wanted and can thrive and grow. I can tell you pretty confidently that stats matter very little once you're in. It's all work ethic from there.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

No, red flags usually refer to convictions/IA, bad LOR, multiple Fs etc.

 

[mstpgrind]

No, red flags usually refer to convictions/IA, bad LOR, multiple Fs etc.

oh yeah I guess that was the wrong use of the term-but I meant are these criteria med schools might screen me out for

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

oh yeah I guess that was the wrong use of the term-but I meant are these criteria med schools might screen me out for

No. You’ll be fine and get multiple acceptances with those stats to MD programs. However, I notice that your username says mstp. Are you applying to these? I think that an MD/PhD application would benefit from more research If so, maybe a research year would be helpful.

 

[Goro]

Hi! I'm planning on applying this coming cycle and was wondering if I have red flags on my app:
1. The summer before starting undergrad, I took ~20 community college credits, including in math (calc 3, stats) and physics (physics I)
2. I have a couple pass/fails (all Ps) on my transcript during covid, and 1 W (none of these in bcpm classes)
3. I'm applying after my sophomore year of college (at 20 y/o)

Re (1): I feel like this might be an issue because I know med schools like to see rigor, but I have As in organic chem/biochem/physical chem that I took in undergrad, so I hope this is ok?
Re (2): I'm afraid this makes it seem like I can't handle the rigor of med school, but I'm hoping my 3.78c/3.85s + 522 mcat balance this out?
Re (3): I have enough volunteer hours (400 nonclinical, 550 clinical) and decent stats + 1 pub, so I'm hoping med schools don't automatically discount me just because I'm young and that my ECs kinda balance it out, but what do you guys think?

Please be super blunt/upfront with me about how big of an issue these are - I'd rather have a chance to address them now than later.

Thanks for the advice!

1. NO
2. NO
3. Hard to tell. Younger interviewees often come off as immature.

 

[mstpgrind]

No. You’ll be fine and get multiple acceptances with those stats to MD programs. However, I notice that your username says mstp. Are you applying to these? I think that an MD/PhD application would benefit from more research If so, maybe a research year would be helpful.

Ok... I was thinking of applying early decision to boost my chances (because I'm so young I feel like med schools are biased) but I'm not sure if that's worth it.

Nah I was going to apply mstp but I'm not anymore (too long+not that interested in research anymore)

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

ED isn’t really worth it in MD admissions like it is in undergrad admissions. I’ve seen some people on these forums get burned (ie. They apply Ed only to get rejected, without enough time to apply at other schools)

 

[Proudfather94]

I'm not really sure if med schools recently changed how they view cc credits - but I've heard they're looked at as less rigorous (or at least they were)

As long as you have taken harder classes at the university level you'll be fine. If you took micro at a cc then took molgen and other advanced bio classes at a university they would see you're capable.

 

[Cheezin]

Hi! I'm planning on applying this coming cycle and was wondering if I have red flags on my app:
1. The summer before starting undergrad, I took ~20 community college credits, including in math (calc 3, stats) and physics (physics I)
2. I have a couple pass/fails (all Ps) on my transcript during covid, and 1 W (none of these in bcpm classes)
3. I'm applying after my sophomore year of college (at 20 y/o)

Re (1): I feel like this might be an issue because I know med schools like to see rigor, but I have As in organic chem/biochem/physical chem that I took in undergrad, so I hope this is ok?
Re (2): I'm afraid this makes it seem like I can't handle the rigor of med school, but I'm hoping my 3.78c/3.85s + 522 mcat balance this out?
Re (3): I have enough volunteer hours (400 nonclinical, 550 clinical) and decent stats + 1 pub, so I'm hoping med schools don't automatically discount me just because I'm young and that my ECs kinda balance it out, but what do you guys think?

Please be super blunt/upfront with me about how big of an issue these are - I'd rather have a chance to address them now than later.

Thanks for the advice!

I made it into multiple med school acceptances with much worse stats than you (only 511 and no pubs) and applying at 19-20 years old and know of 5-10 others who have also done so. However, all acceptances to everyone I know was to low-mid tier MD schools, I know two who interviewed at T20s , one at 18 and one at 20 years old but no acceptances.
If you want to be a Dr, being an M1 at 21 isnt too bad, I will graduate with my MD at 24. If you want the name of a top tier, a gap year would likely open up some doors for you.

 

[mstpgrind]

As long as you have taken harder classes at the university level you'll be fine. If you took micro at a cc then took molgen and other advanced bio classes at a university they would see you're capable.

I'm actually a computer science major so I've only taken 3 bio classes at university: intro bio lab, biochem, and an MS physiology lab class. I also took organic and physical chem. Didn't get below an A- in any science classes at my 4 year (I did get a B in a community college bio 101 when I was 15 y/o which is why my sgpa is 3.85 and not 3.91 but whatever).

But yeah there's a reason my B/B section was my lowest section by far lol (132/131/127/132).

 

[mstpgrind]

I made it into multiple med school acceptances with much worse stats than you (only 511 and no pubs) and applying at 19-20 years old and know of 5-10 others who have also done so. However, all acceptances to everyone I know was to low-mid tier MD schools, I know two who interviewed at T20s , one at 18 and one at 20 years old but no acceptances.
If you want to be a Dr, being an M1 at 21 isnt too bad, I will graduate with my MD at 24. If you want the name of a top tier, a gap year would likely open up some doors for you.

This is super encouraging to hear and really relieves me - I haven't heard any other stories about ppl getting in at my age so I was really nervous about how biased adcoms are.

Yeah I don't really care about T20s - I'm mostly concerned about my geographic preference... I really want to stay in state for med school. Thankfully, my home state (virginia) has 3 low tier MDs (EVMS/VCU/VTech) so hopefully one of those will give me shot.

The only T20 I'm applying to is UVA - I've seen all those posts about those kids whose lists are too top heavy and I'm kinda taking the opposite approach and spamming low tier MDs (50 schools on my list as of now and I'll start prewriting in april/may) lol bc I'm just tryna get in.

I think the only reason to go to T20s is to match better, but I'm grinding research right now and should have another first author in my field of interest before next year so hopefully that compensates.

Another reason is that I'm extremely cognizant of age - I want to finish before I'm 30 because I know so many people who are getting out at 35+ (vascular/nsgy/plastics w/ multiple research years) and it sucks.

 

[wysdoc]

Most medical schools want you to have completed your bachelors degree or a few just require a minimum number of college credit hours.
Will you have your degree by then?

 

[mstpgrind]

Most medical schools want you to have completed your bachelors degree or a few just require a minimum number of college credit hours.
Will you have your degree by then?

Yes, I'll have my degree with 128 credits. I'll have 99 credits after this semester.

 

[Styrene]

This is super encouraging to hear and really relieves me - I haven't heard any other stories about ppl getting in at my age so I was really nervous about how biased adcoms are.

Yeah I don't really care about T20s - I'm mostly concerned about my geographic preference... I really want to stay in state for med school. Thankfully, my home state (virginia) has 3 low tier MDs (EVMS/VCU/VTech) so hopefully one of those will give me shot.

The only T20 I'm applying to is UVA - I've seen all those posts about those kids whose lists are too top heavy and I'm kinda taking the opposite approach and spamming low tier MDs (50 schools on my list as of now and I'll start prewriting in april/may) lol bc I'm just tryna get in.

I think the only reason to go to T20s is to match better, but I'm grinding research right now and should have another first author in my field of interest before next year so hopefully that compensates.

Another reason is that I'm extremely cognizant of age - I want to finish before I'm 30 because I know so many people who are getting out at 35+ (vascular/nsgy/plastics w/ multiple research years) and it sucks.

I will start either fellowship or my first attending job at 35, and I feel amazing. I could see how it could be more difficult if someone wants (or has) a family/kids, though, or has a very specific career goal, like tenured professorship, where age may "matter" in a practical sense.

 

[mstpgrind]

I will start either fellowship or my first attending job at 35, and I feel amazing. I could see how it could be more difficult if someone wants (or has) a family/kids, though, or has a very specific career goal, like tenured professorship, where age may "matter" in a practical sense.

My point of view is that youth is so valuable, and time is the only resource impossible get back.

When I’m looking back on my life, I don’t want to have committed 10+ years of my life, basically putting the rest of my life on hold for medicine.

Another reason is that I want to retire around 50 and work in underdeserved areas in my home country after that. So I need to make enough money before I’m 50 to do that.

But that’s awesome that you found what you wanted to do and are happy with where you are. Good luck!

 

[LunaOri]

You don't have any red flags. The only concern is your youth: schools will want to be sure that you know what it means to commit to being a physician, so they will look closely at your volunteering, shadowing, LOR, and application essays. We want to see evidence of maturity and commitment. If you can present a thoughtful, coherent application and have strong LOR, you should be fine.

 

[mstpgrind]

You don't have any red flags. The only concern is your youth: schools will want to be sure that you know what it means to commit to being a physician, so they will look closely at your volunteering, shadowing, LOR, and application essays. We want to see evidence of maturity and commitment. If you can present a thoughtful, coherent application and have strong LOR, you should be fine.

Hmm ok… so I have around 13 members of my family that are doctors (both parents, all 4 grandparents, many aunts and uncles). Do you think I should mention this or will it seem like my family is pushing me toward medicine/I’m a spoiled rich kid?

For the record, my family is pushing me to accept a tech job (where I have a new grad offer for 170k)… not sure if I should mention any/all of these things (my family in medicine, my tech job offer/me liking medicine more, etc.)

 

[docksan]

I will start either fellowship or my first attending job at 35, and I feel amazing. I could see how it could be more difficult if someone wants (or has) a family/kids, though, or has a very specific career goal, like tenured professorship, where age may "matter" in a practical sense.

I'm in my 40s. You're only limited by your resilience.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Another reason is that I'm extremely cognizant of age - I want to finish before I'm 30 because I know so many people who are getting out at 35+ (vascular/nsgy/plastics w/ multiple research years) and it sucks.

...

My point of view is that youth is so valuable, and time is the only resource impossible get back.

When I’m looking back on my life, I don’t want to have committed 10+ years of my life, basically putting the rest of my life on hold for medicine.

Another reason is that I want to retire around 50 and work in underdeserved areas in my home country after that. So I need to make enough money before I’m 50 to do that.

I've had my opinion change about opinions like this. It is a difference of opinion for me to say you can take more time... health care problems aren't going away.

But it is also a reality that undergrads nowadays have been delaying major life decisions, especially when education debt is so high. This is why there are arguments on forgiving student debt.

I would be interested in knowing more about the burnout among those you see who are in their mid-30s. The pandemic has made a lot of healthcare workers rethink about their lives regardless of age or tenure, and I don't see that going away soon. But the student debt still remains unless you find a way to get it forgiven by 50.

 

[Cheezin]

This is super encouraging to hear and really relieves me - I haven't heard any other stories about ppl getting in at my age so I was really nervous about how biased adcoms are.

Yeah I don't really care about T20s - I'm mostly concerned about my geographic preference... I really want to stay in state for med school. Thankfully, my home state (virginia) has 3 low tier MDs (EVMS/VCU/VTech) so hopefully one of those will give me shot.

The only T20 I'm applying to is UVA - I've seen all those posts about those kids whose lists are too top heavy and I'm kinda taking the opposite approach and spamming low tier MDs (50 schools on my list as of now and I'll start prewriting in april/may) lol bc I'm just tryna get in.

I think the only reason to go to T20s is to match better, but I'm grinding research right now and should have another first author in my field of interest before next year so hopefully that compensates.

Another reason is that I'm extremely cognizant of age - I want to finish before I'm 30 because I know so many people who are getting out at 35+ (vascular/nsgy/plastics w/ multiple research years) and it sucks.

For sure, definitely uncommon to be young but very doable for some people. Even at a "low - mid tier" school I have been overwhelmed by the opportunities for involvement and research and am very happy with where I am living and the availability of clinical experiences so I am glad you have other priorities besides rank. Most of these MD schools are great and I would agree that geography is a top priority. If you have a 522 I don't think it would hurt to apply to a balanced range, 50 low tiers seems like a moot point.

(also the T20 that interviewed the 18 yo is NYU so maybe apply there, he also had 520+ and pubs)

edit: I would like to add that taking a gap year also wouldn't be a bad idea for you, as in applying after your 3rd year of college. Even though I am here, I definitely am more immature than most of my classmates in multiple aspects and would not have minded an extra year of experience -- but at the same time I know I would have spent that entire year wishing I was in med school so who knows. I'm amazed by all the incredible experiences my classmates have had and how well-rounded they are, but they also appreciate us making it for being so young. My point is the grass is always greener on the other side, and to be appreciative of your experiences and what you bring to the table, while also being humble and open to learn from them.

 

[mstpgrind]

For sure, definitely uncommon to be young but very doable for some people. Even at a "low - mid tier" school I have been overwhelmed by the opportunities for involvement and research and am very happy with where I am living and the availability of clinical experiences so I am glad you have other priorities besides rank. Most of these MD schools are great and I would agree that geography is a top priority. If you have a 522 I don't think it would hurt to apply to a balanced range, 50 low tiers seems like a moot point.

(also the T20 that interviewed the 18 yo is NYU so maybe apply there, he also had 520+ and pubs)

edit: I would like to add that taking a gap year also wouldn't be a bad idea for you, as in applying after your 3rd year of college. Even though I am here, I definitely am more immature than most of my classmates in multiple aspects and would not have minded an extra year of experience -- but at the same time I know I would have spent that entire year wishing I was in med school so who knows. I'm amazed by all the incredible experiences my classmates have had and how well-rounded they are, but they also appreciate us making it for being so young. My point is the grass is always greener on the other side, and to be appreciative of your experiences and what you bring to the table, while also being humble and open to learn from them.

This is from a completely uninformed perspective, so take this with a grain of salt.

But - I think the whole "maturity" aspect is so overhyped. Like sure, if I took a year and graduated and worked at amazon as a software engineer for a year, I'd have a better idea of how to handle bills instead of living on scholarship money? and maybe I'd better be able to fit into a workplace? But I don't see how that better prepares me for M1 and M2, where I'm basically spending 2 years where I'll just be grinding anki and doing research. The only thing that matters in my mind is how good of a doctor I can be, and I know a ton of doctors who are immature people, but they can do their jobs fine.

To be honest with you, the reason I'm applying when I am is because I got rejected from a couple of 7 year bsmd programs after making it to the final interview round. Looking back, it was because I *was* immature during those interviews, and didn't have a coherent answer for "why medicine." So I want to show myself that I can still do undergrad+med school in 7 years.

Re: school list - yeah that's a fair point.... I don't really think I have a chance at NYU with my gpa tho. And I'm a pretty cookie cutter applicant with my ECs so I think it'd be a waste. But yeah I might also add some more upper tier schools if I have time for secondaries. Thanks for the advice!

 

[mstpgrind]

...


I've had my opinion change about opinions like this. It is a difference of opinion for me to say you can take more time... health care problems aren't going away.

But it is also a reality that undergrads nowadays have been delaying major life decisions, especially when education debt is so high. This is why there are arguments on forgiving student debt.

I would be interested in knowing more about the burnout among those you see who are in their mid-30s. The pandemic has made a lot of healthcare workers rethink about their lives regardless of age or tenure, and I don't see that going away soon. But the student debt still remains unless you find a way to get it forgiven by 50.

Hmm, I sort of don't see the point of taking more time though. I certainly wouldn't delay a year to pursue the abstract idea of "becoming more mature."
I agree that I *can* take more time, but I don't see why I would, because my stats/ECs say I'm ready to apply this cycle (I only wouldn't apply if med schools were super biased against younger applicants, but it doesn't seem like that's the case).

Re: burnout - I have seem firsthand that at some point, like every other job (for most doctors) medicine just becomes a way to get a paycheck. Frankly, I don't blame the doctors I know who think this - it's hard not to after seeing the same hypertension+obesity patients come in week after week with no desire to improve.

Re: loan debt - I'm very, very lucky in that my parents are generously paying for med school. I understand that I'm in a very privileged position that might be a little different than for most doctors, where financial constraints might limit flexibility.

 

[docksan]

This is from a completely uninformed perspective, so take this with a grain of salt.

But - I think the whole "maturity" aspect is so overhyped. Like sure, if I took a year and graduated and worked at amazon as a software engineer for a year, I'd have a better idea of how to handle bills instead of living on scholarship money? and maybe I'd better be able to fit into a workplace? But I don't see how that better prepares me for M1 and M2, where I'm basically spending 2 years where I'll just be grinding anki and doing research. The only thing that matters in my mind is how good of a doctor I can be, and I know a ton of doctors who are immature people, but they can do their jobs fine.

To be honest with you, the reason I'm applying when I am is because I got rejected from a couple of 7 year bsmd programs after making it to the final interview round. Looking back, it was because I *was* immature during those interviews, and didn't have a coherent answer for "why medicine." So I want to show myself that I can still do undergrad+med school in 7 years.

Re: school list - yeah that's a fair point.... I don't really think I have a chance at NYU with my gpa tho. And I'm a pretty cookie cutter applicant with my ECs so I think it'd be a waste. But yeah I might also add some more upper tier schools if I have time for secondaries. Thanks for the advice!

Don't be that person.

Maturity isn't overhyped. It's a necessity in this field.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hmm, I sort of don't see the point of taking more time though. I certainly wouldn't delay a year to pursue the abstract idea of "becoming more mature."
I agree that I *can* take more time, but I don't see why I would, because my stats/ECs say I'm ready to apply this cycle (I only wouldn't apply if med schools were super biased against younger applicants, but it doesn't seem like that's the case).

Re: burnout - I have seem firsthand that at some point, like every other job (for most doctors) medicine just becomes a way to get a paycheck. Frankly, I don't blame the doctors I know who think this - it's hard not to after seeing the same hypertension+obesity patients come in week after week with no desire to improve.

Re: loan debt - I'm very, very lucky in that my parents are generously paying for med school. I understand that I'm in a very privileged position that might be a little different than for most doctors, where financial constraints might limit flexibility.

I don't disagree that your metrics and resume should get some attention, and if your family is in a strong position to pay for all of your medical school education, then I agree that it's worth the attempt as long as they are able to handle any possible frustration or disappointment that comes with this process. (I'm just thinking things out and just speaking without specific calls to action.)

That said, I don't think that there will be many students similar to you who will have their expenses fully covered when they go to medical school or go into residency training. While you are in a privileged position, most of your peers will not be. That's why the comment that many of the doctor's you have observed are leaving the field early is interesting to me... I don't know if that many people who post here (not a scientific sample) feel that way to the point they want to leave practicing. How you can convey this empathy among your peer students, not to mention the residents and attendings who have to handle their debts, and the physician faculty you may have supervising you who may still be paying off their debts and other family-related debts... that may be important for you to work on. (My research supervisor who was a physician paid off his educational debt when he finally hit 50, and still had a house and other family expenses to manage.) I don't think you're going to tell everyone in the world about it, but how you empathize with others does matter.

The frustrations regarding behavior are absolutely real; that's why the human behavior and social structures/determinants of health are very important, and that is something you have to accept if you go into healthcare now. It won't be different when you retire and decide to go into taking care of people from your heritage home country.

Now becoming a physician entrepreneur is something to think about if that's where you want to go. Not too many schools right now really cover this. Maybe that will change in 10 years.

 

[mstpgrind]

I don't disagree that your metrics and resume should get some attention, and if your family is in a strong position to pay for all of your medical school education, then I agree that it's worth the attempt as long as they are able to handle any possible frustration or disappointment that comes with this process. (I'm just thinking things out and just speaking without specific calls to action.)

That said, I don't think that there will be many students similar to you who will have their expenses fully covered when they go to medical school or go into residency training. While you are in a privileged position, most of your peers will not be. That's why the comment that many of the doctor's you have observed are leaving the field early is interesting to me... I don't know if that many people who post here (not a scientific sample) feel that way to the point they want to leave practicing. How you can convey this empathy among your peer students, not to mention the residents and attendings who have to handle their debts, and the physician faculty you may have supervising you who may still be paying off their debts and other family-related debts... that may be important for you to work on. (My research supervisor who was a physician paid off his educational debt when he finally hit 50, and still had a house and other family expenses to manage.) I don't think you're going to tell everyone in the world about it, but how you empathize with others does matter.

The frustrations regarding behavior are absolutely real; that's why the human behavior and social structures/determinants of health are very important, and that is something you have to accept if you go into healthcare now. It won't be different when you retire and decide to go into taking care of people from your heritage home country.

Now becoming a physician entrepreneur is something to think about if that's where you want to go. Not too many schools right now really cover this. Maybe that will change in 10 years.

Yeah I think it’s better just to not mention anything about finances during the interview, it could definitely backfire.

In another note-it’s insane that there’s a doc in their 50s who still has student loan debt…Personally, if I didn’t have med school paid for I’d just take my job offer as a software engineer where I could easily get up to 200k+ in a year or two (this is part of the reason I majored in CS-to have this flexibility).

Re: entrepreneur - it’s funny you mention that, one of my good friends parents started a very successful locums agency after not being able to find a job he liked. So that’s a very good point.

 

[docksan]

I wouldn't mention anything at all that you just said unless you want to be working as a software engineer instead of a doctor.

"I'd be a software engineer if my med school wasn't paid for" is not a good statement to make to an adcom and frankly why I'm telling you maturity matters.

 

[mstpgrind]

P

I wouldn't mention anything at all that you just said unless you want to be working as a software engineer instead of a doctor.

"I'd be a software engineer if my med school wasn't paid for" is not a good statement to make to an adcom and frankly why I'm telling you maturity matters.

obviously I wouldn’t say that to an adcom…there’s no way I’d get admitted after that.

Like I said above, I’m not planning on telling adcoms that med school is paid for… nothing good can come out of that.

 

[docksan]

It's less about you telling them that, and more about your thinking with regard to the statement.

If your med school wasn't paid for, would you still want to be a doctor? And if not, why bother?

 

[mstpgrind]

It's less about you telling them that, and more about your thinking with regard to the statement.

If your med school wasn't paid for, would you still want to be a doctor? And if not, why bother?

Yeah I see where you’re coming from.

No, I wouldn’t want to be a doctor because the debt would significantly impact my life decisions after then (basically, I think It’s ludicrous for me to potentially be in debt when I’m 50…I hope to retire by 50).

In a vacuum, over any other job+opportunity cost, I would choose medicine. But when considering the opportunity cost over tech, the only thing that pushes it in the direction of medicine is having education covered.

In general, I hate this narrative that medicine has to dominate your life. Yes, I understand that it’s a significant undertaking, but that doesn’t mean that it defines your life. Or at least that’s the way I see it-I want being a doctor to be part of who I am, I don’t want it to define every major life decision/reshape my life.
And from many firsthand (family members) experiences, I know that is possible.

 

[M1-Holder]

You’re fine! I did all the same classes at community college and I’m attending a mid-tier US MD.

 

[32valveMD]

Yeah I see where you’re coming from.

No, I wouldn’t want to be a doctor because the debt would significantly impact my life decisions after then (basically, I think It’s ludicrous for me to potentially be in debt when I’m 50…I hope to retire by 50).

In a vacuum, over any other job+opportunity cost, I would choose medicine. But when considering the opportunity cost over tech, the only thing that pushes it in the direction of medicine is having education covered.

In general, I hate this narrative that medicine has to dominate your life. Yes, I understand that it’s a significant undertaking, but that doesn’t mean that it defines your life. Or at least that’s the way I see it-I want being a doctor to be part of who I am, I don’t want it to define every major life decision/reshape my life.
And from many firsthand (family members) experiences, I know that is possible.

I’d think really long and hard about applying to medical school based on this post and your other ones. It seems like financial gain and software engineering are things you are passionate about. While being a physician does indeed come with high salary and a path to very good financial stability, so does software engineering. Not to mention the opportunity cost of med school / residency compared with making 170k right now and thru that time period, if you really want to retire early that’s the move. Most importantly though, becoming a physician and finding fulfillment in helping patients (many times with unbilled time…) is what should matter most. Otherwise, your patients will suffer for it. If you love tech, go do it for a few years while making bank, and if you still really feel like medicine is for you, you’ve gained real world experience, made money, and should have strong, tangible convictions about why you would leave a lucrative career to pursue medicine instead of “ if med school wasn’t paid for no way I would do it.” The fact that you have a bunch of family members in medicine also makes me wonder if you are being steered towards it out of family pressure. This is your life and your future, make the right decision for you.

 

[hammerlindjo]

I’d think really long and hard about applying to medical school based on this post and your other ones. It seems like financial gain and software engineering are things you are passionate about. While being a physician does indeed come with high salary and a path to very good financial stability, so does software engineering. Not to mention the opportunity cost of med school / residency compared with making 170k right now and thru that time period, if you really want to retire early that’s the move. Most importantly though, becoming a physician and finding fulfillment in helping patients (many times with unbilled time…) is what should matter most. Otherwise, your patients will suffer for it. If you love tech, go do it for a few years while making bank, and if you still really feel like medicine is for you, you’ve gained real world experience, made money, and should have strong, tangible convictions about why you would leave a lucrative career to pursue medicine instead of “ if med school wasn’t paid for no way I would do it.” The fact that you have a bunch of family members in medicine also makes me wonder if you are being steered towards it out of family pressure. This is your life and your future, make the right decision for you.

I agree. Based on everything you've posted here, I'm not totally sure why you want to be a doctor. You mentioned setting this goal to finish college and med school in 7 years, but other than accomplishing that arbitrary goal, why do you want to go to medical school? **rhetorical question intended for self reflection**

You posted a couple things like "obviously I wouldn’t say that to an adcom…there’s no way I’d get admitted after that." But you don't need to say these things explicitly for adcoms to figure it out. Things like your motivation/values and passion (or lack of passion) for medicine are going to be detectable through your essays. Having a good answer to "why do you want to be a doctor" isn't just something you need to frame up nicely to have a good application. It's something you need to be able to answer truthfully for yourself - to be sure you're investing years of time/energy/money in the right place. Taking some time to work as a developer and reflect on this some more actually sounds like a great (and lucrative) option for you. Wish you all the best!

 

[hfiso]

522 mcat.. you’re good. You walk on water, don’t stress

 

[hammerlindjo]

522 mcat.. you’re good. You walk on water, don’t stress

That's not true at all. Plenty of people with high stats get rejected every cycle.

 

[mstpgrind]

That's not true at all. Plenty of people with high stats get rejected every cycle.

Absolutely- it’s only 84.2% acceptance rate for my stats per AAMC table a23, so by no means guarenteed.

 

[mstpgrind]

I agree. Based on everything you've posted here, I'm not totally sure why you want to be a doctor. You mentioned setting this goal to finish college and med school in 7 years, but other than accomplishing that arbitrary goal, why do you want to go to medical school? **rhetorical question intended for self reflection**

You posted a couple things like "obviously I wouldn’t say that to an adcom…there’s no way I’d get admitted after that." But you don't need to say these things explicitly for adcoms to figure it out. Things like your motivation/values and passion (or lack of passion) for medicine are going to be detectable through your essays. Having a good answer to "why do you want to be a doctor" isn't just something you need to frame up nicely to have a good application. It's something you need to be able to answer truthfully for yourself - to be sure you're investing years of time/energy/money in the right place. Taking some time to work as a developer and reflect on this some more actually sounds like a great (and lucrative) option for you. Wish you all the best!

I mean for sure there’s a huge element of family pressure. It’s not explicit (like my family will say I can do whatever I want), but there’s definitely this undertone of “if you’re not doing medicine, your job doesn’t matter as much” which I think is fair to an extent…docs can make some of the biggest impacts compared to other fields.

Re money+stability: my uncle actually wanted to go into investment banking but he decided to go into dermpath and he really likes it. Has great work life balance, high pay, job isn’t too hard. He’s happy with his decision, which makes me think I light be happy with my decision. The only thing is, he got into one of the hardest specialties out there… if I do anything primary care (IM/FM/Peds) I’d rather shoot myself because of how boring it is+low paid (just my opinion, not ragging on PCPs, I just wouldn’t be happy being one)

So that’s where I’m at mentally, but it was very insightful for me to know that my uncle made this exact decision 14 years ago and it panned out for him.

What I think I’ve decided to do is see if I get an new grad offer >200k (I go to a target school, so dozens of my classmates get this per year). If I do, I’ll do SWE for a year. If not, I’ll just go to Med school (if I get in).

 

[khunmohdokhtar]

Definitely not unless a school specifically doesn't accept community college credits for prereqs and also count any of the classes you took at community college and didn't again take at a four-year as prereqs.

Is physics even a prereq anymore? And are there still med schools that look down on or don't accept community college credits?

Hey Styrene, just curious if there was a way you could share your profile with me - I'm not exactly sure how to find your posts about reinvention.

Thanks!

 

[Styrene]

Hey Styrene, just curious if there was a way you could share your profile with me - I'm not exactly sure how to find your posts about reinvention.

Thanks!

Go to my profile, then under postings, and, for example, go to the thread about applying with a criminal history. Let me know if that works.

 

[hfiso]

That's not true at all. Plenty of people with high stats get rejected every cycle.

Absolutely- it’s only 84.2% acceptance rate for my stats per AAMC table a23, so by no means guarenteed.

True. That 16% that didn’t get in just couldn’t interview and/or didn’t apply broad enough. Kids with 495s get in to DO schools every year. A 522 is a shoe in as long as you can speak and are without felonies

 

[docksan]

I mean for sure there’s a huge element of family pressure. It’s not explicit (like my family will say I can do whatever I want), but there’s definitely this undertone of “if you’re not doing medicine, your job doesn’t matter as much” which I think is fair to an extent…docs can make some of the biggest impacts compared to other fields.

Re money+stability: my uncle actually wanted to go into investment banking but he decided to go into dermpath and he really likes it. Has great work life balance, high pay, job isn’t too hard. He’s happy with his decision, which makes me think I light be happy with my decision. The only thing is, he got into one of the hardest specialties out there… if I do anything primary care (IM/FM/Peds) I’d rather shoot myself because of how boring it is+low paid (just my opinion, not ragging on PCPs, I just wouldn’t be happy being one)

So that’s where I’m at mentally, but it was very insightful for me to know that my uncle made this exact decision 14 years ago and it panned out for him.

What I think I’ve decided to do is see if I get an new grad offer >200k (I go to a target school, so dozens of my classmates get this per year). If I do, I’ll do SWE for a year. If not, I’ll just go to Med school (if I get in).

Honestly, and I'm saying this because you need to hear it at this point, your application is less of a red flag than your general mentality towards medicine.

 

[hammerlindjo]

True. That 16% that didn’t get in just couldn’t interview and/or didn’t apply broad enough. Kids with 495s get in to DO schools every year. A 522 is a shoe in as long as you can speak and are without felonies

That is also not true. If you have high stats, but can't write a convincing page-long response to "why do you want to go to medical school", you won't get the interviews. Stats are checkboxes. The higher the stats, the more boxes you check, but the meat and potatoes of your app is the PS and other essays.

 

[CatDad26]

1. NO
2. NO
3. Hard to tell. Younger interviewees often come off as immature.

Going off number 3 because it's SO IMPORTANT... I also applied my first time while in college and in that moment fully thought I was ready. I had solid scores, tons of clinical and research experiences, etc. I was shocked when I received no A's despite many II's from that cycle. This cycle (after a gap year) I again had lots of II's and this time ACCEPTANCES too.

Comparing interview performances from then to now, I can definitely see I may have come off as immature my first app cycle. Not in a oh I'm a young kid type of way, more of a I haven't left college and experienced life yet sort of way. So even if you think you've hit the maturity now, trust me, you probably haven't and maybe a gap year is good for you.

 

[mstpgrind]

Going off number 3 because it's SO IMPORTANT... I also applied my first time while in college and in that moment fully thought I was ready. I had solid scores, tons of clinical and research experiences, etc. I was shocked when I received no A's despite many II's from that cycle. This cycle (after a gap year) I again had lots of II's and this time ACCEPTANCES too.

Comparing interview performances from then to now, I can definitely see I may have come off as immature my first app cycle. Not in a oh I'm a young kid type of way, more of a I haven't left college and experienced life yet sort of way. So even if you think you've hit the maturity now, trust me, you probably haven't and maybe a gap year is good for you.

That's definitely fair, and I guess I can sort of understand that. I agree that I will be more immature this year than as a postgrad. I still think I'm going to apply this cycle and see what happens.

Do you think more interview practice would've helped?

@Cheezin How do you think your experience differed (re: maturity)?