Are these red flags?

[mstpgrind]

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That is also not true. If you have high stats, but can't write a convincing page-long response to "why do you want to go to medical school", you won't get the interviews. Stats are checkboxes. The higher the stats, the more boxes you check, but the meat and potatoes of your app is the PS and other essays.

This has been discussed multiple times on sdn. LizzyM's analogy seems to fit:
of stats being steps on a staircase (higher stats = higher on staircase) and other factors (PS, secondaries, II) push you up the staircase to a A.

 

[mstpgrind]

Honestly, and I'm saying this because you need to hear it at this point, your application is less of a red flag than your general mentality towards medicine.

Not taking away from your own experiences, but I think it's interesting how nearly all of my family members (and most of our doctor social circle) is jaded toward medicine and thinks the same way I do. Maybe it's a mentality that comes with time.

 

[docksan]

Not taking away from your own experiences, but I think it's interesting how nearly all of my family members (and most of our doctor social circle) is jaded toward medicine and thinks the same way I do. Maybe it's a mentality that comes with time.

No, it's a mentality that comes with inexperience on dealing with high intensity situations and the humility that comes with having insane amounts of knowledge and being mostly powerless to use it consistently due to the system structure.

 

[Cheezin]

That's definitely fair, and I guess I can sort of understand that. I agree that I will be more immature this year than as a postgrad. I still think I'm going to apply this cycle and see what happens.

Do you think more interview practice would've helped?

@Cheezin How do you think your experience differed (re: maturity)?

I feel like I often reflect on my life and opinions and re-evaluate decisions I have made. It's apparent that I don'tt have the breadth of knowledge that my peers do, which can make things difficult, but I believe I can work my way through a situation carefully and meaningfully. That's extremely vague, but I think maturity can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. I feel like the most important is being well-intentioned. While it's true that many of my classmates even 30+ can joke around and act "immature", (almost) everyone I know in my class is well-intentioned and driven and I really respect that.

I think people are making good points in this thread in that while you may share a common sentiment among premeds, students, and drs, there are better ways to interpret and express that sentiment without feeling like you have to disguise it under something like political correctness. And probably every 6 months I feel like I'm a new person with how much I've learned and grown as a person. I think that is necessary for being young and "mature" because we really are works in progress with a LOT of room for improvement, so a gap year wouldn't hurt.

edit: although I will say there are numerous 19-21 M1s who I felt were extremely immature and borderlined disliked who are still M1s so it is still possible either way lol

 

[hfiso]

That is also not true. If you have high stats, but can't write a convincing page-long response to "why do you want to go to medical school", you won't get the interviews. Stats are checkboxes. The higher the stats, the more boxes you check, but the meat and potatoes of your app is the PS and other essays.

True, I agree. But anyone getting a 522 is smart enough to write a beautiful essay with ease. 522 is higher than harvards average mcat

 

[Styrene]

That's definitely fair, and I guess I can sort of understand that. I agree that I will be more immature this year than as a postgrad. I still think I'm going to apply this cycle and see what happens.

Do you think more interview practice would've helped?

@Cheezin How do you think your experience differed (re: maturity)?

I would advise against applying to see what happens. Only apply when your application will be the strongest as a general rule, but, of course, each case is unique.

 

[Styrene]

True, I agree. But anyone getting a 522 is smart enough to write a beautiful essay with ease. 522 is higher than harvards average mcat

Maybe not anyone. I've seen some horrendous writers who are great at MCQ tests.

 

[mstpgrind]

I would advise against applying to see what happens. Only apply when your application will be the strongest as a general rule, but, of course, each case is unique.

I mean I think my application is pretty strong just based on stats+ECs. Obviously, maturity is something hard to define, but I don't agree with the idea of taking an extra year to pursue the abstract concept of "becoming mature."

Every single year is valuable, and I think I can get at least some IIs just based on stats - and after that it just comes down to interview practice.

PS/secondaries shouldn't be an issue as I'm lucky to have many docs/med students in the family who can help me edit.

 

[docksan]

Taking a gap year in the pursuit of maturity defeats the purpose of a gap year. I tell this to premeds a lot. It doesn't matter what adversity or time gap you faced to get to the interview, can you articulate its effect and influence on your drive to become a physician?

If you can't, the activity did nothing for your goal.

And no, telling someone a high MCAT means good essay writing is horrible advice. I've seen plenty of extremely smart students with terrible people skills and borderline terrible clinical skills.

Knowledge is not what makes a doctor great.

 

[Styrene]

I mean I think my application is pretty strong just based on stats+ECs. Obviously, maturity is something hard to define, but I don't agree with the idea of taking an extra year to pursue the abstract concept of "becoming mature."

Every single year is valuable, and I think I can get at least some IIs just based on stats - and after that it just comes down to interview practice.

PS/secondaries shouldn't be an issue as I'm lucky to have many docs/med students in the family who can help me edit.

Others here have, but I wasn't referencing maturity. I was just giving general advice (for you and others who may read this) about not applying to medical school as if it's a trial run or practice because it's a very draining process in several ways, and a failed cycle may impact success in future cycles.

 

[hammerlindjo]

I mean for sure there’s a huge element of family pressure. It’s not explicit (like my family will say I can do whatever I want), but there’s definitely this undertone of “if you’re not doing medicine, your job doesn’t matter as much” which I think is fair to an extent…docs can make some of the biggest impacts compared to other fields.

Re money+stability: my uncle actually wanted to go into investment banking but he decided to go into dermpath and he really likes it. Has great work life balance, high pay, job isn’t too hard. He’s happy with his decision, which makes me think I light be happy with my decision. The only thing is, he got into one of the hardest specialties out there… if I do anything primary care (IM/FM/Peds) I’d rather shoot myself because of how boring it is+low paid (just my opinion, not ragging on PCPs, I just wouldn’t be happy being one)

So that’s where I’m at mentally, but it was very insightful for me to know that my uncle made this exact decision 14 years ago and it panned out for him.

What I think I’ve decided to do is see if I get an new grad offer >200k (I go to a target school, so dozens of my classmates get this per year). If I do, I’ll do SWE for a year. If not, I’ll just go to Med school (if I get in).

"I’d rather shoot myself because of how boring it is+low paid"....This is such a problematic statement.

 

[mstpgrind]

"I’d rather shoot myself because of how boring it is+low paid"....This is such a problematic statement.

[deleted]

 

[mstpgrind]

Taking a gap year in the pursuit of maturity defeats the purpose of a gap year. I tell this to premeds a lot. It doesn't matter what adversity or time gap you faced to get to the interview, can you articulate its effect and influence on your drive to become a physician?

If you can't, the activity did nothing for your goal.

And no, telling someone a high MCAT means good essay writing is horrible advice. I've seen plenty of extremely smart students with terrible people skills and borderline terrible clinical skills.

Knowledge is not what makes a doctor great.

- If I did take a gap year in tech, I would just say I wanted to be able to go to med school with as little debt as possible.
- I'm having many people who've been thru the process help me edit my essays, so that shouldn't be an issue
- Absolutely, and I'm very scared of being someone who can pass tests and memorize info, but not be able to apply it when it really matters.

 

[docksan]

Tell me that after you've had a family member in FM commit suicide because of their job...

Your response is all the more reason their response was appropriate.

Most of us gleam that you're passionate and intelligent and very capable. But are you passionate about medicine? Stating something so concrete as "I'd rather commit suicide" in light of the unfortunate event you mentioned does *not* build a case for resiliency. I have addicts in my family, but I don't think I'd ever say "I'd rather smoke pcp and get drunk than ever go into [x] field".

I'll say this again, for your benefit, your stats will not keep you out of med school if that's what you want. Your ability to navigate a conversation given your current thinking might.

 

[mstpgrind]

Your response is all the more reason their response was appropriate.

Most of us gleam that you're passionate and intelligent and very capable. But are you passionate about medicine? Stating something so concrete as "I'd rather commit suicide" in light of the unfortunate event you mentioned does *not* build a case for resiliency. I have addicts in my family, but I don't think I'd ever say "I'd rather smoke pcp and get drunk than ever go into [x] field".

I'll say this again, for your benefit, your stats will not keep you out of med school if that's what you want. Your ability to navigate a conversation given your current thinking might.

- I'd actually rather not talk about it, shouldn't have mentioned it.

- I'm able to navigate a conversation with adcoms (I hope).

Obviously I wouldn't say things like this in front of adcoms, I'll just tell them what they want to hear about me being passionate for medicine [insert 2-3 stories here]/when I was an EMT and did CPR on someone who had a heart attack that changed my life/it's the only job that will really fulfill me/I can't see myself in any other career, etc. etc.

me on sdn is very different that how I would present myself at a II.

I definitely see how if I presented myself in real life like I do on SDN, there's no way I'm getting in - and I completely see how it might seem like I would act like that irl that given how I've presented myself on this post

 

[hammerlindjo]

- I'd actually rather not talk about it, shouldn't have mentioned it.

- I'm able to navigate a conversation with adcoms (I hope).

Obviously I wouldn't say things like this in front of adcoms, I'll just tell them what they want to hear about me being passionate for medicine [insert 2-3 stories here]/when I was an EMT and did CPR on someone who had a heart attack that changed my life/it's the only job that will really fulfill me/I can't see myself in any other career, etc. etc.

me on sdn is very different that how I would present myself at a II.

I definitely see how if I presented myself in real life like I do on SDN, there's no way I'm getting in - and I completely see how it might seem like I would act like that irl that given how I've presented myself on this post

Going through this application process is going to be a very humbling experience for you.

 

[mstpgrind]

Going through this application process is going to be a very humbling experience for you.

We’ll see!

 

[docksan]

- I'd actually rather not talk about it, shouldn't have mentioned it.

- I'm able to navigate a conversation with adcoms (I hope).

Obviously I wouldn't say things like this in front of adcoms, I'll just tell them what they want to hear about me being passionate for medicine [insert 2-3 stories here]/when I was an EMT and did CPR on someone who had a heart attack that changed my life/it's the only job that will really fulfill me/I can't see myself in any other career, etc. etc.

me on sdn is very different that how I would present myself at a II.

I definitely see how if I presented myself in real life like I do on SDN, there's no way I'm getting in - and I completely see how it might seem like I would act like that irl that given how I've presented myself on this post

I truly wish you the best, but your thread and subsequent replies are a textbook example of a student who needs some humbling.

You can attempt to convince folks that you on the internet is not you in front of an adcom, and from a certain point of view I'm certain that's accurate.

I'm pretty confident, given my experience, that this is who you are and where you are at in life. And that's okay. You have plenty of room to grow. Whether that's as a physician, it's not my place to say. It's for none of us to judge, really, but I'm certain our collective experience gives us the wisdom and retrospect to identify folks who are likely a good fit for this field, and given that you are here asking for input and your output is "If it wasn't paid for I wouldn't do it but I won't tell them that I'll tell them what they want to hear" I'm honestly not convinced this is the field for you.

If you find that it is, best of luck to you.

 

[Moko]

- I'd actually rather not talk about it, shouldn't have mentioned it.

- I'm able to navigate a conversation with adcoms (I hope).

Obviously I wouldn't say things like this in front of adcoms, I'll just tell them what they want to hear about me being passionate for medicine [insert 2-3 stories here]/when I was an EMT and did CPR on someone who had a heart attack that changed my life/it's the only job that will really fulfill me/I can't see myself in any other career, etc. etc.

me on sdn is very different that how I would present myself at a II.

I definitely see how if I presented myself in real life like I do on SDN, there's no way I'm getting in - and I completely see how it might seem like I would act like that irl that given how I've presented myself on this post

The question here isn't whether you can get into medical school. You can. What you should be asking yourself is whether this is the right decision for you. You are clearly talented enough to earn a very comfortable and respectable living in another field, one that will also require less work and fewer sacrifices. Medicine is not for everyone, and that's okay. Be honest with yourself about your own priorities, and whether entering the medical field will truly maximize your happiness. If not, years down the line, you may regret forcing yourself into a demanding and tiring field that you don't truly enjoy. As is often said, medical schools aren't going anywhere. You may benefit from exploring these other career paths, and then pursuing medicine at a later date if you remain truly unsatisfied. Just my humble thoughts and best of luck with your decision.

 

[mstpgrind]

The question here isn't whether you can get into medical school. You can. What you should be asking yourself is whether this is the right decision for you. You are clearly talented enough to earn a very comfortable and respectable living in another field, one that will also require less work and fewer sacrifices. Medicine is not for everyone, and that's okay. Be honest with yourself about your own priorities, and whether entering the medical field will truly maximize your happiness. If not, years down the line, you may regret forcing yourself into a demanding and tiring field that you don't truly enjoy. As is often said, medical schools aren't going anywhere. You may benefit from exploring these other career paths, and then pursuing medicine at a later date if you remain truly unsatisfied. Just my humble thoughts and best of luck with your decision.

Thank you so much for this advice, this put into words a lot of what I was thinking.

In a vacuum, I 100% agree that I should take time and do software engineering for a year or two, then go to med school if I still want to. Indeed, this is exactly what my parents (both physicians) are pushing me to do. But while internally, I know that a year or two won't make a difference, I have this desire to get through the medical training process as fast as I can - I've seen so many family members who have to wait until they are 35+ to settle down, start a family, etc. and I have no desire to do that.

Right now I'm leaning toward applying for both tech jobs and med school this summer, and just deferring a year to work in tech if I'm still inclined to do so.

I think the real issue is that tech for me has a higher floor, but a lower ceiling
- I'll probably make 300-350 for my entire career doing boring work I don't really enjoy, but it pays the bills and has good work-life balance.

While medicine has a lower floor, but a higher ceiling
- if I get the job my brother has as ortho spine - 35-40 hrs/wk, great flexibility in private practice, makes a huge difference, 700k/yr, I'll be very happy, but if I get the job my aunt has: family med, works for HMO, no flexibility, 2 weeks off/yr, 300k, I'll be extremely disappointed and will almost certainly regret going to med school.

And I know a huge range of physicians, so I know anything on that range is possible. And the issue is, it's impossible to know how competitive of a candidate I am before even going to med school, so I can't just go in expecting to match ortho/rads/plastics (the same fields everyone else wants) and then be disappointed when I don't. That's sort of where I'm at right now.

 

[jhmmd]

Thank you so much for this advice, this put into words a lot of what I was thinking.

In a vacuum, I 100% agree that I should take time and do software engineering for a year or two, then go to med school if I still want to. Indeed, this is exactly what my parents (both physicians) are pushing me to do. But while internally, I know that a year or two won't make a difference, I have this desire to get through the medical training process as fast as I can - I've seen so many family members who have to wait until they are 35+ to settle down, start a family, etc. and I have no desire to do that.

Right now I'm leaning toward applying for both tech jobs and med school this summer, and just deferring a year to work in tech if I'm still inclined to do so.

I think the real issue is that tech for me has a higher floor, but a lower ceiling
- I'll probably make 300-350 for my entire career doing boring work I don't really enjoy, but it pays the bills and has good work-life balance.

While medicine has a lower floor, but a higher ceiling
- if I get the job my brother has as ortho spine - 35-40 hrs/wk, great flexibility in private practice, makes a huge difference, 700k/yr, I'll be very happy, but if I get the job my aunt has: family med, works for HMO, no flexibility, 2 weeks off/yr, 300k, I'll be extremely disappointed and will almost certainly regret going to med school.

And I know a huge range of physicians, so I know anything on that range is possible. And the issue is, it's impossible to know how competitive of a candidate I am before even going to med school, so I can't just go in expecting to match ortho/rads/plastics (the same fields everyone else wants) and then be disappointed when I don't. That's sort of where I'm at right now.

Not everyone wants to be a doc in these particular fields (or even traditional ROAD specialties)! You'd be surprised.

 

[mstpgrind]

Not everyone wants to be a doc in these particular fields (or even traditional ROAD specialties)! You'd be surprised.

Oh for sure - I wasn't intending to make a huge generalization like that lol

I was just alluding to how these are some of the most competitive fields

 

[docksan]

This has been discussed multiple times on sdn. LizzyM's analogy seems to fit:
of stats being steps on a staircase (higher stats = higher on staircase) and other factors (PS, secondaries, II) push you up the staircase to a A.

I just wanted to make one more comment on this, in case there are other med student hopefuls reading.

By LizzyM's analogy I would have been toward the bottom of a staircase with little chance of ascending.

A better allegory is that applying to medical school is like the first Squid Game, Red Light Green Light. Having high stats puts you closer to the finish line to observers, while the other factors determine if you will be able to make it to the finish line over other competitors.

There is no shortage of applicants who can make it to the finish line and trip up because of the latter, and equally no shortage of applicants who despite their other factors will never make it to the finish line because they can't close the gap.

Henceforth there must be applicants who are immediately screened out because of perceived red flags and never even get to start the race, even if they have all of the above qualities in spades while there are applicants who can get to the finish line despite having none of them.

But much like the Squid Game, it only gets more challenging and difficult from there and eventually residency becomes the glass bridge we stand on.