Are things changing with regard to what applicants should focus on?

[scrapy]

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The conventional wisdom has long been to "make sure you get 150/500 hours or some other distinct amount of clinical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, research, etc" but I’m not sure how much useful having 400 vs 200 hours of clinical volunteering is if those extra 200 hours could be used more productively for the applicant themself (i.e. if they need more time for research grants/work/pubs, affecting an impactful change in their org or company, or learning some special skill). I think what schools want to now see (or what they should want to see) is that applicants have a vision, that they have some special way that they will improve medicine and even make a med school more prominent. This line of thinking was the theory for acceptance to top undergrads (i.e. could this person be the next Nikola Tesla and thus give our school more clout?), but I bet that med schools, with so many similar applicants who all have similar checklists, are going to include a “big picture” scoring category rather than give points solely for volunteering, research, shadowing, etc. Do they already do this, or are 500 clinical volunteering hours given 2.5 times the weight of 200 hours?

Yes I excluded stats from this discussion. I’m interested in your thoughts on using hours to solidify a vision for medicine and being a doctor vs using them to increase hours in some application category that may not necessarily tie in with your specific vision.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

Quality >>>>> quantity. Hours are only measure of quantity.

 

[scrapy]

Quality >>>>> quantity. Hours are only measure of quantity.

Yes I hope this is the way adcoms see it. Are you one perchance?

 

[907914]

The way admissions committees evaluate applicants is not drastically changing. It is the way applicants perceive what admissions committees are looking for that is changing. SDN/reddit etc. have been around for a decade or so, but their popularity and student's awareness of them has skyrocketed in the last 5 years. What admissions committees are looking for has not drastically changed save for the top of the top schools.

However, students now see "Every other student is scribing, so I need to as well to be competitive" and "All of these students are worried about 10,000 hours of clinical rocket surgery not being enough? I need to cure diabetes with naturopathy, maybe then they will consider me!" It is not a change in the admissions committees, but a change in the availability of information to students (pre-meds already naturally being some of the most neurotic). Thus, students do more so not because schools are looking for more but because they see other students are doing more.

This leads to the self fulfilling prophecy - if students do more, then schools will eventually come to expect more. However, this as only really occurred at the top schools who can be picky about their selectivity. Every other school, they just want to see quality activities that show commitment, leadership, and exposure. Relax on quantity, do what you want to do. If you care about the activity, then it should naturally morph in to a good EC.

 

[scrapy]

The way admissions committees evaluate applicants is not drastically changing. It is the way applicants perceive what admissions committees are looking for that is changing. SDN/reddit etc. have been around for a decade or so, but their popularity and student's awareness of them has skyrocketed in the last 5 years. What admissions committees are looking for has not drastically changed save for the top of the top schools.

However, students now see "Every other student is scribing, so I need to as well to be competitive" and "All of these students are worried about 10,000 hours of clinical rocket surgery not being enough? I need to cure diabetes with naturopathy, maybe then they will consider me!" It is not a change in the admissions committees, but a change in the availability of information to students (pre-meds already naturally being some of the most neurotic). Thus, students do more so not because schools are looking for more but because they see other students are doing more.

This leads to the self fulfilling prophecy - if students do more, then schools will eventually come to expect more. However, this as only really occurred at the top schools who can be picky about their selectivity. Every other school, they just want to see quality activities that show commitment, leadership, and exposure. Relax on quantity, do what you want to do. If you care about the activity, then it should naturally morph in to a good EC.

Tbf, I think mid tier schools can afford to be very picky now as well, based on what I’ve seen this past cycle. What are you saying is different about top schools? That they’re the ones that look fo vision?

 

[Mike Bagwell]

You guys still don't get it.

It's not about EC's. EC's don't get you into medical school. EC's help you in explaining WHY you want to go to medical school and become a doctor. The total hours don't even matter. You can have 1000 hours spread over four or five weak activities and you will be impressing no one.

If you have a 3.75 and a 515 MCAT, Two-years of volunteering just on a Saturday at a community hospital and then 50 - 75 hours of shadowing with a LOR from a physician who can speak of your interest in medicine AS WELL AS your academic qualifications + some demonstrated commitment to a hobby/activity outside of medicine such as in music, sports, the arts, or your religion will get you a seat with no problems.

If you are focusing on EC's, you are already focusing wrong. Your focus should be on GPA and MCAT. Just like you garnish a finished dish, the EC's garnish your app.

How many of you eat garnishments for dinner alone?

 

[907914]

Tbf, I think mid tier schools can afford to be very picky now as well, based on what I’ve seen this past cycle. What are you saying is different about top schools? That they’re the ones that look fo vision?

True, in regards to many of the 'mid-tier' schools. But when you look at it, 2/5 of applicants get in, which means that *the majority* of students who get in or not the high flying tippy-top applicants - they are just "better" than the bottom 60% (However those numbers are determined and what determines that I have no clue and will not chime in on). Two-fifths is less than half, yes, however it is still a significant proportion of all applicants. Most mid-tier schools are not having to decide between students based on who did 500 vs 600 hrs of volunteering, they are deciding based on the totality of the applicant.

Whereas the top schools (again, what classifies 'top' I will not chime in on) have applicants who are all excellent. They are all so excellent that they are almost cookie-cutter in their excellence. Sure, we think a 520 is astounding, but that is run-of-the mill for applicant pools at top tier schools. Because every single one of their worthy applicants is excellent, and the majority of them are very similar in their excellence, the school can be picky in minute details like 500 vs 600 hrs etc.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

You guys still don't get it.

Mike, dial down the condescension, man. Like, 90% of your posts are dripping with it. It seems like it's your only mode and you always have it set at 10.

 

[scrapy]

You guys still don't get it.

It's not about EC's. EC's don't get you into medical school. EC's help you in explaining WHY you want to go to medical school and become a doctor. The total hours don't even matter. You can have 1000 hours spread over four or five weak activities and you will be impressing no one.

If you have a 3.75 and a 515 MCAT, Two-years of volunteering just on a Saturday at a community hospital and then 50 - 75 hours of shadowing with a LOR from a physician who can speak of your interest in medicine AS WELL AS your academic qualifications + some demonstrated commitment to a hobby/activity outside of medicine such as in music, sports, the arts, or your religion will get you a seat with no problems.

If you are focusing on EC's, you are already focusing wrong. Your focus should be on GPA and MCAT. Just like you garnish a finished dish, the EC's garnish your app.

How many of you eat garnishments for dinner alone?

Idk. From what I’m seeing this cycle, what you mentioned might get someone into their state school. However, most people have surprising very few public state schools, that most apply to privates out of state to keep their options open. Every private OOS I’ve seen, whether a top school or not, has gotten much more picky than I’ve expected in 2018-2019.

 

[dr_kateb]

No one premed is going to bring “clout” to any ranked medical school, never mind a top medical school. No player is bigger than the club.

As far as ECs go they just show that you are willing to walk the walk. Clinical volunteering is to show you know what you are getting into, and I’d say anything over 200 would be a waste of time. Within 30 or so hours of volunteering at my hospital I saw everything that I would see there. There's definitely diminishing returns beyond a certain point. With most volunteer positions you are essentially an unpaid janitor that might get to push a patient from A to B a few times a shift.

 

[907914]

You guys still don't get it.

It's not about EC's. EC's don't get you into medical school. EC's help you in explaining WHY you want to go to medical school and become a doctor. The total hours don't even matter. You can have 1000 hours spread over four or five weak activities and you will be impressing no one.

If you have a 3.75 and a 515 MCAT, Two-years of volunteering just on a Saturday at a community hospital and then 50 - 75 hours of shadowing with a LOR from a physician who can speak of your interest in medicine AS WELL AS your academic qualifications + some demonstrated commitment to a hobby/activity outside of medicine such as in music, sports, the arts, or your religion will get you a seat with no problems.

If you are focusing on EC's, you are already focusing wrong. Your focus should be on GPA and MCAT. Just like you garnish a finished dish, the EC's garnish your app.

How many of you eat garnishments for dinner alone?

I think ECs have more of an impact than as a garnish. They are more like the sauce. They do not decorate the applicant, they give them their flavor. No one sends something back to the chef due to lacking a garnish, but they will send it back if the flavor is off.

The garnish is more like interview performance. It is pleasant if there is a nice decoration, but no one really cares if it isn't that fancy. But you will certainly get turned away if you look like a pile of poo, regardless if the flavor and main dish are tasty.

 

[scrapy]

No one premed is going to bring “clout” to any ranked medical school, never mind a top medical school. No player is bigger than the club.

As far as ECs go they just show that you are willing to walk the walk. Clinical volunteering is to show you know what you are getting into, and I’d say anything over 200 would be a waste of time. Within 30 or so hours of volunteering at my hospital I saw everything that I would see there. There's definitely diminishing returns beyond a certain point. With most volunteer positions you are essentially an unpaid janitor that might get to push a patient from A to B a few times a shift.

You missed that one point. I meant to bring clout in the future as a practicing doctor, not as a medical student (but hey some med students have done amazing research and other projects in the past).

I agree with your point about clinical volunteering, but I doubt ECs are checkboxes. Certain unique ECs and skills that help create a theme will certainly be noticed, and this can be a boon to overrepresented, cookie cutter candidates with run of the mill stats (or even above average stats) for a certain school.

 

[Lucca]

If only there were some kind of way to know what adcoms value and how much they value each element compared to the others

 

[907914]

No one premed is going to bring “clout” to any ranked medical school, never mind a top medical school. No player is bigger than the club.

As far as ECs go they just show that you are willing to walk the walk. Clinical volunteering is to show you know what you are getting into, and I’d say anything over 200 would be a waste of time. Within 30 or so hours of volunteering at my hospital I saw everything that I would see there. There's definitely diminishing returns beyond a certain point. With most volunteer positions you are essentially an unpaid janitor that might get to push a patient from A to B a few times a shift.

I think the "Unpaid janitor" notion is why a lot of people are moving to scribing/EMT/MA/CNA/Phlebotomy for their clinical. Money is already tight as a college student.

 

[Lucca]

AAMC Surveys on Adcom Preferences

The following AAMC surveys show the list of various metrics, experiences, demographics and sources of applicant information that medical schools generally find to be important based on a priority scale. Please take the time to carefully look into these tables to have a general understanding what schools are looking for.

2015 AAMC Survey

2013 AAMC Survey

Also note that the priorities (measured by mean importance ratings) are organized in a descending order according to the above footnotes.

In regards to academics, both AAMC surveys illustrate the importance of doing well in classes and on the MCAT.

science GPA > MCAT total score > upward/downward GPA trends > cumulative undergrad GPA > performance in a post-bacc program

Curiously, the 2015 AAMC survey lists undergrad selectivity as of lowest importance, unlike the 2013 AAMC survey that shows differing medical school interpretations (i.e. for public schools, undergrad selectivity matters little, whereas for private schools, undergrad selectivity matters a lot). Generally, attending a competitive undergrad (i.e. HYPSM/Ivies etc.) may help for medical school admissions, but undergrad name doesn't excuse for poor GPA/poor MCAT. Likewise, attending a state school or subpar undergrad doesn't exclude you from medical schools.

For experiences, the priority ratings are

Healthcare experience > community service/volunteer experience > leadership experience >> research experience

Note crucially that healthcare and community service experiences are required. Without these experiences, you cannot get accepted into any medical school. As @Goro likes to say, "You need to show Adcoms that you know what you're getting into". The 2015 AAMC survey also lists physician shadowing as highest importance. Usually, 50+ hours of shadowing with experience in primary care settings is ideal.

@gonnif has pointed out that research experience is listed as medium importance (as noted in both AAMC surveys). So research is not a required component in a successful medical school application, although it's always good to have some experience understanding how the scientific method works..​

 

[907914]

If only there were some kind of way to know what adcoms value and how much they value each element compared to the others

But you see, MSAR costs a whole 30 dollars...that's like 3 trips to starbucks wasted.

 

[Lucca]

But you see, MSAR costs a whole 30 dollars...that's like 3 trips to starbucks wasted.

Don’t even need to pay for that. See link above.

 

[scrapy]

If only there were some kind of way to know what adcoms value and how much they value each element compared to the others

I and many others have felt like these aamc surveys paint the schools with too broad a stroke. I can tell you in good conscience that plenty of private schools, top or not, care a great deal about the selectivity of your undergraduate institution.

 

[907914]

You missed that one point. I meant to bring clout in the future as a practicing doctor, not as a medical student (but hey some med students have done amazing research and other projects in the past).

I agree with your point about clinical volunteering, but I doubt ECs are checkboxes. Certain unique ECs and skills that help create a theme will certainly be noticed, and this can be a boon to overrepresented, cookie cutter candidates with run of the mill stats (or even above average stats) for a certain school.

I know I am in that boat - everything about me and my ORM applicant is run of the mill save for military. Without the military thread running through telling a story, I would seriously doubt my competitivity.

 

[Lucca]

I and many others have felt like these aamc surveys paint the schools with too broad a stroke. I can tell you in good conscience that plenty of private schools, top or not, care a great deal about the selectivity of your undergraduate institution.

I agree with you, actually. Having specific institutional knowledge is useful when targeting your application or deciding how to shape it. But baseline the same kinds of things are valued at all med schools.

 

[965978]

If only there were some kind of way to know what adcoms value and how much they value each element compared to the others

You mean something similar to the NRMP survey?

 

[Mike Bagwell]

Mike, dial down the condescension, man. Like, 90% of your posts are dripping with it. It seems like it's your only mode and you always have it set at 10.

No "condescension" here. That's called reality.

When you don't live in reality, what I'm saying might appear as condescending.

 

[965978]

I and many others have felt like these aamc surveys paint the schools with too broad a stroke. I can tell you in good conscience that plenty of private schools, top or not, care a great deal about the selectivity of your undergraduate institution.

Should have gone to Duke for undergrad when I had the chance. I went to a no name state school because of my now ex-girlfriend

 

[Lucca]

You mean something similar to the NRMP survey?

I was being a bit tongue in cheek. AAMC survey exists. Charting the outcomes is far more detailed but suffers from the same weakness of painting with broad strokes.

 

[907914]

No "condescension" here. That's called reality.

When you don't live in reality, what I'm saying might appear as condescending.

Yes, we all understand that those with >90th %tile scores have much less emphasis on the ECs. However, <90th percentile applicants make up around 2/3 of matriculants. Thus, the majority of applicants are not in the 'high stats' block. Additionally, the majority of matriculants are not in the high stats block. Yes, stats are the bulk of your meaning up until a point. But once you reach >3.6/>508, your ECs are *almost* the only thing that matters. There is very little difference in acceptance rates between a 3.6/510 and a 3.6/512 (also a 3.8/520 vs a 4.0/520)

 

[907914]

Yes, we all understand that those with <90th %tile scores have much less emphasis on the ECs. However, >90th percentile applicants make up around 2/3 of matriculants. Thus, the majority of applicants are not in the 'high stats' block. Additionally, the majority of matriculants are not in the high stats block. Yes, stats are the bulk of your meaning up until a point. But once you reach <3.6/<508, your ECs are *almost* the only thing that matters. There is very little difference in acceptance rates between a 3.6/510 and a 3.6/512 (also a 3.8/520 vs a 4.0/520)

My < and > signs are wrong. flip them to fit the context of what I am saying. I work in a field of data entry...but still the mistakes lol

 

[965978]

My < and > signs are wrong. flip them to fit the context of what I am saying. I work in a field of data entry...but still the mistakes lol

You should have just edited your post rather than having us do mental gymnastics.

 

[scrapy]

You should have just edited your post rather than having us do mental gymnastics.

I forgive him

 

[scrapy]

Should have gone to Duke for undergrad when I had the chance. I went to a no name state school because of my now ex-girlfriend

Just relay the message to your progeny and younger friends. To be fair, it is just one factor of many

 

[907914]

You should have just edited your post rather than having us do mental gymnastics.

Done. Didn't realize you could edit posts like that - I knew about deleting but never saw the editing. Makes sense. Editing to remove/change information just feels dishonest.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

Yes, we all understand that those with >90th %tile scores have much less emphasis on the ECs. However, <90th percentile applicants make up around 2/3 of matriculants. Thus, the majority of applicants are not in the 'high stats' block. Additionally, the majority of matriculants are not in the high stats block. Yes, stats are the bulk of your meaning up until a point. But once you reach >3.6/>508, your ECs are *almost* the only thing that matters. There is very little difference in acceptance rates between a 3.6/510 and a 3.6/512 (also a 3.8/520 vs a 4.0/520)

You're still not getting it.

1/3 of spots don't automatically go to students with lower stats. Those 1/3 spots are eventually going to be taken up by students with high stats. That's why, as a friendly gesture, I have been suggesting you all hit the books and give the soup kitchens and free clinics a rest for now.

 

[965978]

You're still not getting it.

1/3 of spots don't automatically go to students with lower stats. Those 1/3 spots are eventually going to be taken up by students with high stats. That's why, as a friendly gesture, I have been suggesting you all hit the books and give the soup kitchens and free clinics a rest for now.

Dude, you're not making sense

 

[965978]

Done. Didn't realize you could edit posts like that - I knew about deleting but never saw the editing. Makes sense. Editing to remove/change information just feels dishonest.

I applaud your integrity. There is a desperate need for that in medicine.

 

[907914]

You're still not getting it.

1/3 of spots don't automatically go to students with lower stats. Those 1/3 spots are eventually going to be taken up by students with high stats. That's why, as a friendly gesture, I have been suggesting you all hit the books and give the soup kitchens and free clinics a rest for now.

Not one third, 2/3s of matriculants are less than a 3.8/512. Those spots are not given to anyone. They are earned by the hard work and excellence by these non-high stats students outside of academia. Is there a difference between 500 hours at a soup kitchen and 200 hours? probably not, but the quality and longevity of ECs definitely matters. To say students are just numbers is wholly incorrect. Are students just numbers for the Match? pretty much, save for top residencies. However, for acceptance to medical school that is just a blatantly wrong statement.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

Dude, you're not making sense

Then you need to work on your CARS skills my friend.

The only thing changing in medical school admissions is that you are going to have candidates applying with HIGHER AND HIGHER STATS not better EC's. You can have a discussion on EC's only when every candidate is applying with a 4.0.

I hope that makes more sense. Most of you pre-meds are approaching admissions wrong and that is why you are still stuck here on SDN.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

Not one third, 2/3s of matriculants are less than a 3.8/512. Those spots are not given to anyone. They are earned by the hard work and excellence by these non-high stats students outside of academia. Is there a difference between 500 hours at a soup kitchen and 200 hours? probably not, but the quality and longevity of ECs definitely matters. To say students are just numbers is wholly incorrect. Are students just numbers for the Match? pretty much, save for top residencies. However, for acceptance to medical school that is just a blatantly wrong statement.

Well you focus on those EC's and get back to us in a year or two.

 

[907914]

Then you need to work on your CARS skills my friend.

The only thing changing in medical school admissions is that you are going to have candidates applying with HIGHER AND HIGHER STATS not better EC's. You can have a discussion on EC's only when every candidate is applying with a 4.0.

I hope that makes more sense. Most of you pre-meds are approaching admissions wrong and that is why you are still stuck here on SDN.

He says as a patronizing medical student "still stuck here on SDN." At least when I am patronizing on here it is through my own ignorance, not arrogance.

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

This dude is one year removed from being a pre-med and thinks that makes him a genius.

 

[907914]

Well you focus on those EC's and get back to us in a year or two.

Well you focus on those EC's and get back to us in a year or two.

Will do. Do you want a PM or a public post? With each acceptance, each interview, each rejection? What do you want, I am game.

Note to any moderator: Will stop this tangent at this post as we are getting far away from OP's intent.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

This dude is one year removed from being a pre-med and thinks that makes him a genius.

Not a genius but I know the process better than you.

 

[Mike Bagwell]

Will do. Do you want a PM or a public post? With each acceptance, each interview, each rejection? What do you want, I am game.

Post a YouTube video with those acceptances in hand. You can blur your face out and scramble your voice if you wish. Just have a card on your desk that says samualjhatfield with that day's date.

 

[965978]

Ok, how about everyone here just focuses on their own app?

If you think it's all about EC's, go ahead and build a hospital in rural Kansas. If you think it's all about stats, go ahead and aim for a 525.

But stop fighting or you'll get this thread shut down.

 

[dr_kateb]

Wow this got personal...

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Not a genius but I know the process better than you.

I've already been accepted, buddy, so it sounds like I'm doing okay in terms of the process. But, again, thanks so much for the condescension.

 

[907914]

I've already been accepted, buddy, so it sounds like I'm doing okay in terms of the process. But, again, thanks so much for the condescension.

Yes, it is difficult to get in to medical school, but get off your high horse as you are no more successful than the 22,000 other people this cycle and a couple million over the last century who have done the exact same.

@ThrowawayShmoaway - sorry, quoted wrong post. Directed at mikebagwell. But agreed to be done with fighting.

 

[907914]

Post a YouTube video with those acceptances in hand. You can blur your face out and scramble your voice if you wish. Just have a card on your desk that says samualjhatfield with that day's date.

I mean, based on my username you can deduce that anonymity is obviously not my strong suit.

 

[dr_kateb]

 

[Mike Bagwell]

The SDN pre-allo crowd always amazes me. You come to SDN for advice, some people then give you advice that you would otherwise have to pay for and you still argue, complain, and don't listen.

I think you guys think SDN is a pre-med Instagram or something to that effect to which I would say check your priorities.

 

[907914]

The SDN pre-allo crowd always amazes me. You come to SDN for advice, some people then give you advice that you would otherwise have to pay for and you still argue, complain, and don't listen.

I think you guys think SDN is a pre-med Instagram or something to that effect to which I would say check your priorities.

We do come to SDN for advice. However, your confrontational and condescending advice is basically "Read some books, don't do anything else. If you do, you're an idiot."

Whether your advice is good or bad, no one wants to listen to a j*****s.

Note to any moderator: Sorry, I keep saying I am done with fighting. Now I really am. Again, sorry - these kinds of attitudes just really grind my gears.

 

[Lucca]

Keep it civil and on topic pls.