Are We Corporate Bots?

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clement

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Early in my career, I had the pleasure of learning a great deal about the complex interface of labor and employment law and hospital employment.
The bottom line is, physicians have very little rights as hospital employees-"Sorry no one ever taught you guys that in residency."
By the way, your average labor and employment attorney is not well-versed in the multitude of nuances relating to hospital employment.
Deal with it, or form a union.

The upside side, is that I walked away feeling pretty confident about my ability to review and negotiate key aspects of employment agreements, you know, the bread and butter stuff-restrictive covenants, terminations clauses, and so forth.
In a basic and obvious sense (without getting into regional hospital corporate culture, cough, cough, eastern seaboard), employers in larger, more "desirable" cities tend to be less flexible, more one-sided in their employment contract terms, lower paying, and with distinctly, corporate flavors.
As more and more physicians have become hospital employees, some of the common red flags of course are, "Watch out for places that have an aggressive business model," and, "Watch out for places that have a high physician turnover rate" (ok, so these are beyond obvious and tend to go hand-in-hand).
That being said, where do we draw the line with what feels like, corporate peasantry?

...Would you ever sign on the dotted line for a moonlighting gig (mind you, typical lower hourly pay in a large city and ridiculous non-compete terms) where the "physician" manual says, termination for CAUSE includes but is not limited to X, Y, Z (really bad obvious for-cause stuff like having your license suspended, lying, cheating)?
Also, "We (the hospital) can change the terms of the manual at anytime. Thanks."
...I didn't bother to go after the non-compete stuff because I know they're not really enforceable when they fail to include geographic or temporal limitations. Still, if you ever have a dispute, you'd have to cough up a retainer to make that point-wasn't thrilled--but let the non-compete BS slide.

When I asked that they amend the for-cause termination issue and limit for-cause termination to the generally horrible events listed in the manual...and so that I wasn't signing something that said, "If we don't like the same sports team as you, you can be terminated for-cause, i.e. we can destroy your entire reputation,"...
they pulled the, "We cannot modify the physician manual for you" BS, and generally acted as though no one (in their ginormous health system) has ever protested such terms.
So I backed out.
Who writes "physician manuals" for big health systems, "physician" administrators looking out for fellow physician employees, or senior health VP's?
Are most folks really agreeing to these kinds of terms with potential hospital employers?
Are we really that lowly when we work for hospitals? Do our numbers in hospitals mean nothing because we value the stability, the benefits, and prioritize paying student loans/mortgages over protecting our reputations? Really, without a reputation, you won't be able to appreciate stability and benefits.

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Early in my career, I had the pleasure of learning a great deal about the complex interface of labor and employment law and hospital employment.
The bottom line is, physicians have very little rights as hospital employees-"Sorry no one ever taught you guys that in residency."
By the way, your average labor and employment attorney is not well-versed in the multitude of nuances relating to hospital employment.
Deal with it, or form a union.

The upside side, is that I walked away feeling pretty confident about my ability to review and negotiate key aspects of employment agreements, you know, the bread and butter stuff-restrictive covenants, terminations clauses, and so forth.
In a basic and obvious sense (without getting into regional hospital corporate culture, cough, cough, eastern seaboard), employers in larger, more "desirable" cities tend to be less flexible, more one-sided in their employment contract terms, lower paying, and with distinctly, corporate flavors.
As more and more physicians have become hospital employees, some of the common red flags of course are, "Watch out for places that have an aggressive business model," and, "Watch out for places that have a high physician turnover rate" (ok, so these are beyond obvious and tend to go hand-in-hand).
That being said, where do we draw the line with what feels like, corporate peasantry?

...Would you ever sign on the dotted line for a moonlighting gig (mind you, typical lower hourly pay in a large city and ridiculous non-compete terms) where the "physician" manual says, termination for CAUSE includes but is not limited to X, Y, Z (really bad obvious for-cause stuff like having your license suspended, lying, cheating)?
Also, "We (the hospital) can change the terms of the manual at anytime. Thanks."
...I didn't bother to go after the non-compete stuff because I know they're not really enforceable when they fail to include geographic or temporal limitations. Still, if you ever have a dispute, you'd have to cough up a retainer to make that point-wasn't thrilled--but let the non-compete BS slide.

When I asked that they amend the for-cause termination issue and limit for-cause termination to the generally horrible events listed in the manual...and so that I wasn't signing something that said, "If we don't like the same sports team as you, you can be terminated for-cause, i.e. we can destroy your entire reputation,"...
they pulled the, "We cannot modify the physician manual for you" BS, and generally acted as though no one (in their ginormous health system) has ever protested such terms.
So I backed out.
Who writes "physician manuals" for big health systems, "physician" administrators looking out for fellow physician employees, or senior health VP's?
Are most folks really agreeing to these kinds of terms with potential hospital employers?
Are we really that lowly when we work for hospitals? Do our numbers in hospitals mean nothing because we value the stability, the benefits, and prioritize paying student loans/mortgages over protecting our reputations? Really, without a reputation, you won't be able to appreciate stability and benefits.

I’m honestly trying to figure out if this was posted by a human or if a computer took a bunch of sentences on the same topic and stuck them together.
 
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I’m honestly trying to figure out if this was posted by a human or if a computer took a bunch of sentences on the same topic and stuck them together.

LOL
 
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SmallBird, Tiki, and Merely,
Unless I'm gobbling up a trail of trolling biscuits, your cascade of replies/reactions/dares don't meaningfully contribute to the topic and were pretty unnecessary. You're not here to assess my humanness, I hope.
 
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Physicians are gradually being transformed from independent professionals to employed technicians. Mid-level providers at the same time are gradually being elevated, eroding what makes being a physician special, the goal being that we will all be considered the same as replaceable commodoties by employers. This trend will likely continue given the shortage of physicians and the interests of employers and insurers. Hopefully the collapse of physicians as independent professionals will be delayed until after we retire.
 
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Beep boop beep boop beep
 
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Physicians are gradually being transformed from independent professionals to employed technicians. Mid-level providers at the same time are gradually being elevated, eroding what makes being a physician special, the goal being that we will all be considered the same as replaceable commodities by employers. This trend will likely continue given the shortage of physicians and the interests of employers and insurers. Hopefully the collapse of physicians as independent professionals will be delayed until after we retire.
Yep, this is a good summary.

I anticipate in the years to come for my own kids a very real possibility of telling them stay away from medicine.
 
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The original post was bit hard to follow the thought process.

Some states do enforce non-competes and you better know up front if your state does or does't before you sign...

But what I gleaned is yes, health systems and larger groups make cookie cutter contracts and don't budge much on details. Can they? Yes. All it takes is the corporate lawyer at that hospital or at the central office/hospital where the administration is at. Don't know if you don't try.

They obviously responded that it wasn't worth their time or energy to negotiate with you. You either accept what they offer or reject it. Quite simple. I for one am done with donning the flag of the larger entity. Psychiatry can and still does have independent practice and should continue to embrace it. My suggestion is to simply avoid the larger health entities.

I've seen enough physicians bitter with their health system jobs, grumble and at most move to the next health system job but make no real change. For instance I don't ever see the IM/FM folks go and start a private practice or transition into Direct Primary Care. They simply trudge on. The closest I've seen was a solid OB group move in concert like a mini union. They all understood that if they didn't get what they want, they would all walk and the hospital would be left with out a department. More of this needs to happen. However, there are too many docs who just don't care, go with the flow, don't want to rock the boat. Others want to escape their daily drudgery and became 'the man' themselves and slowly climb the admin ladder, only to perpetuate the ridiculous decisions that loathed in the first place.
 
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As a general observation I have found that suffering under decisions made by non-medical administrators or bureaucrats is something to be avoided, which is why I work for myself.

On another medical forum I’ve been following a recent discussion about public ED referral pathways where it appears that the tone of conversation between referrers and admitting doctors has moved from a “discussion” to a “demand” that a patient is admitted. This cultural shift appears to be due to an arbitrary, government imposed 4 hour waiting time rule which has no clinical evidence behind it.

One colleague recently moved rooms, after a confrontational meeting with the (non-medical) hospital management who felt he wasn’t admitting enough inpatients. They seemed to be unable to appreciate that the patients he sees don’t require admissions, so why would be bring them in? Then they were surprised at his decision to move!

Recently I’ve been banging heads with a third party insurer who offered a pittance for a report, refused to negotiate and thought they’d endear themselves to me by withdrawing the requests and then submitting new ones. Sick of having my time wasted, I invoiced them something ridiculous to get them to piss off. Being self-employed does have its risks, but the autonomy is priceless.
 
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They obviously responded that it wasn't worth their time or energy to negotiate with you. You either accept what they offer or reject it. Quite simple. I for one am done with donning the flag of the larger entity. Psychiatry can and still does have independent practice and should continue to embrace it. My suggestion is to simply avoid the larger health entities.

I've seen enough physicians bitter with their health system jobs, grumble and at most move to the next health system job but make no real change. For instance I don't ever see the IM/FM folks go and start a private practice or transition into Direct Primary Care. They simply trudge on. The closest I've seen was a solid OB group move in concert like a mini union. They all understood that if they didn't get what they want, they would all walk and the hospital would be left with out a department. More of this needs to happen. However, there are too many docs who just don't care, go with the flow, don't want to rock the boat. Others want to escape their daily drudgery and became 'the man' themselves and slowly climb the admin ladder, only to perpetuate the ridiculous decisions that loathed in the first place.

The challenge for those of us who have student loans and participate in the public student loan forgiveness "program," is that we have to dedicate at least 30hrs/wk to 501c work. This means negotiating with administrative/corporate health care system BS to carve out the most *decent* setup.
The student loan monster is a big dangling carrot with hospital employers.
Sadly, academia, which was never well-paying to begin with but appeals to a lot of peoples' comfort zones right after training, is where the corporate culture/productivity model seems to be proliferating.
...I have also encountered what you describe with the OB group, where a bunch of (established) specialists simply left a health system at one time (not even a threat)- but it ultimately only delayed patient care and resulted in no big changes. They just recruited new grads with big loans and foreign grads with visa requirements. These folks couldn't get the 411 from those who left-even if they cared to-so it all worked out for the health system.
 
I get the student loan bit. However, I have left the PSLF path and opted to pay if off the traditional and old fashion way. I've immersed myself in the expenses of a private practice on top of the student loans.
 
I've seen enough physicians bitter with their health system jobs, grumble and at most move to the next health system job but make no real change. For instance I don't ever see the IM/FM folks go and start a private practice or transition into Direct Primary Care. They simply trudge on. The closest I've seen was a solid OB group move in concert like a mini union. They all understood that if they didn't get what they want, they would all walk and the hospital would be left with out a department. More of this needs to happen. However, there are too many docs who just don't care, go with the flow, don't want to rock the boat.


The bottom line is, physicians have very little rights as hospital employees-"Sorry no one ever taught you guys that in residency."


Maybe there's a correlation?
 
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