Argosy PSYD Interview

[JeyRo]

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Here is their data: http://www.argosy.edu/documents/psydinfo/Chicago-psyd-outcomes.pdf.

They consistently average ~70 students applying for internship every year, including this past cycle. Trust the data and not the rumors. Although, I know, we all wish it were true!

I noticed that Argosy lumps together "CPA and APA accredited internships" into one chunk and that interns usually land these internships in the 35-40 percentile range (which seems pretty darn low). I wonder how many of that number is APA accredited? They don't seem to say. Probably a much lower number. That means that a significant chunk of these students are graduating from Argosy with likely 200K + worth of loans, without APA-accredited internships (e.g., no VA job, locked out of many government or hospital jobs, etc.), and into an anemic private practice market, competing with seasoned psychologists from funded programs with established practices, as well as hordes of midlevels (MFTs, LCSWs, etc.)

BTW about what one of the earlier posters said re. loans. First, tuition risen precipitously over the last several years at FSPS across the US, which means that Stafford loans no longer cover the balance of tuition and fees, necessitating for many taking out PLUS loans and other high-interest private loans. Second, the combined prevailing interest rate you'll get using a combination package like that (government + private loans) probably will be somewhere upwards of at least 8 or 9 percent, minimum - Stafford borrowers in graduate school now have to pay a *minimum* of 6.8% interest on their loans and private loans come with even higher rates.

When I was a student, Stafford rates were less than 2%. You should now plan for a combined interest rate of 7-9 percent on your loans, maybe more. For a 150K loan balance (expect a minimum of that from Argosy after graduation), that translates into somewhere in the neighborhood of 1K per month or more for the next 30 years. On a psychologists salary? I make decent money these days but no way I could afford that, not on my life.

These loans are not dischargeable, even the private loans. Income based repayment is NOT straightforward to obtain (e.g., it's based on last years tax return, which might cover you and your spouse), and only covers Stafford loans.

Think.

 

[KillerDiller]

I noticed that Argosy lumps together "CPA and APA accredited internships" into one chunk and that interns usually land these internships in the 35-40 percentile range (which seems pretty darn low). I wonder how many of that number is APA accredited? They don't seem to say. Probably a much lower number. That means that a significant chunk of these students are graduating from Argosy with likely 200K + worth of loans, without APA-accredited internships (e.g., no VA job, locked out of many government or hospital jobs, etc.), and into an anemic private practice market, competing with seasoned psychologists from funded programs with established practices, as well as hordes of midlevels (MFTs, LCSWs, etc.)

Will the government really not take someone who did their internship in Canada at an accredited site? I know that they dissolved the APA accreditation = CPA accreditation agreement, but my impression was that that was more of the CPA's decision than the APA's. Now I'm really curious whether equivalency could be established if an American who went to a CPA site wanted to work in government.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Will the government really not take someone who did their internship in Canada at an accredited site? I know that they dissolved the APA accreditation = CPA accreditation agreement, but my impression was that that was more of the CPA's decision than the APA's. Now I'm really curious whether equivalency could be established if an American who went to a CPA site wanted to work in government.

I can't recall if the updated VA statement addressed CPA (Canada..not California) acred. status. I know anectdotally that CPA is viewed as equal (if not a bit more strict!) than the APA, but I don't know how this plays out in the Red Tape world of the VA.

 

[JeyRo]

I can't recall if the updated VA statement addressed CPA (Canada..not California) acred. status. I know anectdotally that CPA is viewed as equal (if not a bit more strict!) than the APA, but I don't know how this plays out in the Red Tape world of the VA.

I admit I have no specific information about the subject myself but the hiring boilerplate at the VA is pretty clear that only students with APA internships from APA accredited programs need apply. I don't recall anything that said that CPA accreditation was accepted in lieu of APA.... but maybe someone else could find something about this.

EDIT: Ah, the wonders of Google: http://www.appic.org/Match/FAQs/Applicants/Eligibility-and-Participation#vafootnote

Completion of CPA-accredited training is not accepted in lieu of APA-accredited training at the VA. So, again, the match rates for Argosy are being artificially inflated, in my view, by collapsing CPA with APA accreditation, mainly because CPA accreditation doesn't matter as far as the USA's #1 employer of psychologists is concerned.

 

[ClinicalABA]

When I was a student, Stafford rates were less than 2%. You should now plan for a combined interest rate of 7-9 percent on your loans, maybe more. For a 150K loan balance (expect a minimum of that from Argosy after graduation), that translates into somewhere in the neighborhood of 1K per month or more for the next 30 years. On a psychologists salary? I make decent money these days but no way I could afford that, not on my life.

I believe the current maximum repayment term is 25 years under the extended repayment plan. With a 150K loan at 6.8% interest, you'd have monthly loan payments of $1041 (paying a total of $162,332 in interest over the life of the loan- that's the cost of extending repayment). According to the calculator at this site- http://mappingyourfuture.org/paying/ibrcalculator.cfm - That would take a minimum monthly salary of $156,000 to handle (I do not know how exactly how they come up with this number- it seems to consistently be about 8% of your monthly gross income). That $1041 monthly payment is huge- maybe even soul crushingly huge. Even with an income-based repayment, assuming a combined family income of $100,000, you'd still have monthly loan costs of $966 for a family of two, $817 for a family of 4. Depending on where you live (like you'll even have much of an option), those are entire rent/mortgage payments. I pay about $400 on an annual family income of around 125K (about 110 of that is my salary). Even that is a big number- while we live comfortably, an extra 400 to put into our retirement, kid's college, new car, etc. would be very noticeable. Also note that that amount was the same when I was making 40K in post doc years. Having to pay $600+ more per month would mean huge lifestyle changes, with the resultant marital, familial, and personal stress. Be very careful before choosing that path. Again- those are soul-crushingly huge monthly payment numbers. Is that Argosy (or any) education worth $312,000 dollars?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Completion of CPA-accredited training is not accepted in lieu of APA-accredited training at the VA. So, again, the match rates for Argosy are being artificially inflated, in my view, by collapsing CPA with APA accreditation, mainly because CPA accreditation doesn't matter as far as the USA's #1 employer of psychologists is concerned.

I think the more problematic "fuzzy math" is when programs do APPIC/APA or CAPIC/APPIC...as both can be very misleading. When dealing with programs, I tell students to ask *specifically* about APA-acred. match rates, because that is what matters. If a program can't match well to APA-acred...that is a *huge* problem because a person can't make that up in "years of experience."

It is really important that students understand the full ramifications of attending anything other than an APA-acred program, APA-acred internship, and attaining a full and unrestricted license to practice as a psychologist. Some of the less reputable programs try and cut corners at one or more of those areas, and their students often have no idea how limiting it can be when they are saddled with $150k-$200k+ and they are trying to find a job.

As for jobs...I've seem #'s as low as $40k-$50k for full-time employment (college counseling centers), and they ALL have required APA-acred programs and APA-acred internship placements. Any kind of speciality work will require a person have both. Even *with* both...it is still a battle to get a good offer because there is always someone out there with more experience and/or willing to take less money.

I'm wrapping up my first foray into 'the real world' job market, and it has been challenging. I came from a university-based Psy.D. program, interned at a pretty solid VA, and completed a 2yr fellowship at a prestigous fellowship...and I *still* needed to hussle, network, and prove myself to get solid job offers. I can't imagine trying to navigate the job market and have one arm tied behind my back. As another point of reference...most fellowships/post-docs/research post-docs that take students from APA-acred programs & internships pay $35-$50k or so, which isn't great...but it is what some jobs are offering desperate people who have limited job options.

OP: Do yourself a favor and don't saddle yourself with debt and limited options. Scratching by after putting in the better part of a decade of work is no place for anyone.

 

[cara susanna]

T4C, what kind of jobs were you looking for? Academic medical center?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd say that if you're saddled with a significant amount of loans (whether it be from undergrad, grad school, or both), you might want to start preparing yourself now to be geographically flexible when it comes time to find employment. I'm still a couple post-doc years from entering the job market myself, so this is just based on my own limited observations, but I am seeing jobs posted with at least decent benefits and salaries--they're just not always in the most ideal locations.

Plus, I don't know what the options look like for MH right now, but there are student loan repayment assistance programs available in underserved areas through the NHSC that can take a significant chunk out of what you owe after only a few years (e.g., $40-60k for 2 years of full-time service, and $70-90k for 3 years of service). The benefit of that over even income-based repayment and public sector loan forgiveness setups is that regardless of what happens 10 years down the road, the money's already been paid to the loan holders. You do have to apply, though, so it's certainly not a sure thing.

 

[psyman]

In addition to that, with the stigma attached to programs such as Argosy, it's becoming harder and harder to secure an APA-accredited internship (which the APA is trying to push as the national standard, which many hospitals and other employers require of employees, and which a handful of states require for licensure). Thus, by attending such a program, you're not only handcuffing yourself with greater debt, but also potentially with more-limited career options.

I've never heard of a state require an APA internship. Can you cite this please?

 

[JeyRo]

I've never heard of a state require an APA internship. Can you cite this please?

http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2004/04/accreditation.aspx

Unfortunately I can't seem to find a comprehensive list of states and which ones do and don't require APA accredited internship for licensure. Looks like Florida, Mississippi, and Utah require APA or CPA accreditation of your internship. Oklahoma requires APA (CPA doesn't qualify). Keep in mind the article is almost a decade old, so other states may have tightened up licensing standards since then.

 

[psyman]

http://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2004/04/accreditation.aspx

Unfortunately I can't seem to find a comprehensive list of states and which ones do and don't require APA accredited internship for licensure. Looks like Florida, Mississippi, and Utah require APA or CPA accreditation of your internship. Oklahoma requires APA (CPA doesn't qualify). Keep in mind the article is almost a decade old, so other states may have tightened up licensing standards since then.

I know for a fact Florida does not require an APA internship, but an APA program is required. That link just says it has to meet "APA standards." I have many friends who have recently become licensed in Florida who did not attend APA internships.

This is the link where you can find all the state requirements.

http://www.asppb.org/

 

[wigflip]

I recall a regular poster here ridiculing a new poster about an obvious homework question a couple of months back, and then turning around asking for people to look up statistics for them for a publication that they were working on.

I remember that. That gave me a good belly laugh at the time.

Any new news from the OP (re notification status, willingness to accept if given an offer)?
Edit: Oops--guess it's a bit early for notification. Thought this thread unfurled over a longer amount of time.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I've never heard of a state require an APA internship. Can you cite this please?

I'd actually written that incorrectly, as I meant to refer to states that require APA accreditation of the doctoral program (e.g., GA). I honestly don't know if any states require it for internships. My mistake.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I'd actually written that incorrectly, as I meant to refer to states that require APA accreditation of the doctoral program (e.g., GA). I honestly don't know if any states require it for internships. My mistake.

IIRC, around 3 or 4 states do require APA accreditation for internship. I want to say GA and MO are two of them, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's worth noting that the APA is actively trying to push a uniform minimum requirement of education and training. The safest route to take is APA-acred. program & internship.

 

[psyman]

IIRC, around 3 or 4 states do require APA accreditation for internship. I want to say GA and MO are two of them, but I could be mistaken.

I just checked via the site I posted above and neither of those states require an APA internship. They require internships which are acceptable to the APA program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I just checked via the site I posted above and neither of those states require an APA internship. They require internships which are acceptable to the APA program.

Guess I remembered incorrectly! 😳 I definitely know there are a small handful who require it (or at least there were around 2 years ago); if I have time tomorrow, I might look them up.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Guess I remembered incorrectly! 😳 I definitely know there are a small handful who require it (or at least there were around 2 years ago); if I have time tomorrow, I might look them up.

If you do, please let us know, as I'd be interested in finding out which ones. I thought I'd remembered GA requiring it as well, although they just require APA/APPIC or equivalent.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Just for some perspective, my student loans from medical school are less than $200,000 total but my monthly payments on a 25-year term are $1,400. Just a thought.

 

[psyman]

Just for some perspective, my student loans from medical school are less than $200,000 total but my monthly payments on a 25-year term are $1,400. Just a thought.

Does the income based repayment option do anything for you? At that rate you'll pay $420,000. I'm sure you're well aware, but I'm just curious.

Maybe you earn too much for income based? What is considered too much anyway (to qualify for income based)?

Never mind, got it: http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/IBR_QA_Final2-2011.pdf

 

[JeyRo]

It's worth noting that the APA is actively trying to push a uniform minimum requirement of education and training. The safest route to take is APA-acred. program & internship.

... and didn't I read somewhere that the VA is pushing for students to complete APA accredited programs, internships, AND postdocs to be eligible for later VA employment?

With so many psychologists sloshing around the system it's inevitable that standards will continue to tighten as the years go by, I would imagine.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There aren't enough APA-acred post-docs to make that feasible, but I believe when the APA started to acred. Post-doc programs the goal was to try and have uniformity in training standards. Most of the top post-doc training programs across specialties are not APA-acred, so a critical mass of them will be needed before it will mean anything. If that happens, I could see the VA pushing for the higher standard, but not right now.

I'm not employed by the VA, so the above is just my opinion based on what I have seen/heard/experienced.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

There aren't enough APA-acred post-docs to make that feasible, but I believe when the APA started to acred. Post-doc programs the goal was to try and have uniformity in training standards. Most of the top post-doc training programs across specialties are not APA-acred, so a critical mass of them will be needed before it will mean anything. If that happens, I could see the VA pushing for the higher standard, but not right now.

I'm not employed by the VA, so the above is just my opinion based on what I have seen/heard/experienced.

I would agree; based on numbers alone, I just don't know that it'd be feasible. The only way I could see it working, at least in the short-term, would be to require that post-docs be APA-accred. or equivalent (e.g., by possibly branching out and accepting APPCN postdocs for neuropsych, etc.) and potentially requiring the applicant to provide proof (in as painless a fashion as possible) of equivalency.

Then again, I think requiring any sort of formal postdoc in and of itself would be a huge step, and one that might not necessarily be met with universally-open arms.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Especially considering that it seem that states are slowly going in the direction of removing the postdoc requirement for licensure.

Exactly. Although I wonder if the VA might roll with the no-postdoc route for entry-level positions if/when most states abandon the postdoc hours (which is pretty much what they do now anyway), but begin requiring formal training for certain specialty areas of practice.

 

[erg923]

I would agree; based on numbers alone, I just don't know that it'd be feasible. The only way I could see it working, at least in the short-term, would be to require that post-docs be APA-accred. or equivalent (e.g., by possibly branching out and accepting APPCN postdocs for neuropsych, etc.) and potentially requiring the applicant to provide proof (in as painless a fashion as possible) of equivalency.

Then again, I think requiring any sort of formal postdoc in and of itself would be a huge step, and one that might not necessarily be met with universally-open arms.

That makes no sense to me, as people need to keep in mind that not eveyone even does a "post-doc." If anything, we are moving away from the nonsensical mindset of nonstop training/slave labor. I've taken a staff psychologist "job" and a very part-time clinical faculty position at university. I interned with the VA and because I bounce my wife and infant to some random locale for a year, they wouldnt hire me? I call bullocks....

 

[Pragma]

Especially considering that it seem that states are slowly going in the direction of removing the postdoc requirement for licensure.

I can't tell you how many folks in other licensed professions get puzzled when I explain the licensure process to them. For most of them, it is built in to their training and they graduate their program with their license.

Would solve a lot of problems (e.g., billing for trainees) if we could change our system a bit. That said, I personally didn't mind the extra year before becoming license eligible - in part because I graduated in 5 years and really only had the one full-time year of clinical experience on internship. 3 halftime pracs and an internship might have been enough, but I felt a lot more confident after my first postdoc year.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Exactly. Although I wonder if the VA might roll with the no-postdoc route for entry-level positions if/when most states abandon the postdoc hours (which is pretty much what they do now anyway), but begin requiring formal training for certain specialty areas of practice.

From a competency perspective I think waiving the post-doc year for generalist positions might be okay (similar to how physicians who do primary care residencies can sometimes finish in 3yrs instead of 4.) The problem with this approach is that it very well could produce a two-tiered system. We have that in neuropsych & rehab psych already, which I think is problematic bc of competency concerns and little if any restriction of practice or use of title.

Providing the degree before internship and a limited license or full license for internship would address multiple concerns, but it'd be a PITA to change at the state-level, which is where this is currently legislated.