argue with professors?

[CarerraGT]

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I have lately been arguing for a few points on an exam - not because I am a gunner, but because the class that I have just finished has 30% of the grade out there (mostly from a shelf exam) and I want to make sure I don't get them back and end up needing a few more points to pass the class.

After questioning some of the questions that were on the exam, one of the professors emailed back with a rude reply and said that my understanding of the terms was incorrect

I replied to his comments with references to websites, texts, and journal articles proving that I was right and he was wrong. I am wondering if this will just end up biting me in the ass. On one hand, I don't want to mess with professors that might screw me later, but on the other hand, I don't want to argue for these points AFTER finding out I needed just a few more for the P. I'd much rather prefer passing the class and taking my chances later than having to worry about retaking a class because of 2-3 questions that I could have argued.

I normally wouldn't challenge a professor's authority only because a few of them I've noticed are arrogant and stubborn (and thats the last thing any med student would want to deal with) but this situation pushed me into doing it - especially when i received a rude reply.

 

[cooldreams]

I have lately been arguing for a few points on an exam - not because I am a gunner, but because the class that I have just finished has 30% of the grade out there (mostly from a shelf exam) and I want to make sure I don't get them back and end up needing a few more points to pass the class.

After questioning some of the questions that were on the exam, one of the professors emailed back with a rude reply and said that my understanding of the terms was incorrect

I replied to his comments with references to websites, texts, and journal articles proving that I was right and he was wrong. I am wondering if this will just end up biting me in the ass. On one hand, I don't want to mess with professors that might screw me later, but on the other hand, I don't want to argue for these points AFTER finding out I needed just a few more for the P. I'd much rather prefer passing the class and taking my chances later than having to worry about retaking a class because of 2-3 questions that I could have argued.

I normally wouldn't challenge a professor's authority only because a few of them I've noticed are arrogant and stubborn (and thats the last thing any med student would want to deal with) but this situation pushed me into doing it - especially when i received a rude reply.

maybe you should present this entire scenerio and be upfront to your professor? "i am worried about passing the class, and was concerned about these questions on the past test, can i talk to you for a few minutes on this please?"

 

[CarerraGT]

maybe you should present this entire scenerio and be upfront to your professor? "i am worried about passing the class, and was concerned about these questions on the past test, can i talk to you for a few minutes on this please?"

i dont think he would really give a rat's ass - hes just a guest lecturer in the class and made a few of the questions on the test. the main guy knows the situation but for him, its probably more to show that he taught the material well while he taught for his lovely 1 hour time slot. I think if he concedes that there is a mistake, the head honcho can then go and give me credit for it.

 

[kcrd]

I think you should just drop it and accept that you got the questions wrong. You are not going to get anywhere by 'proving you are right and he is wrong' - you'll just end up looking like a gunner jerk. Alternately, do what cooldreams suggests and meet with the main professor. The back-and-forth email thing can only go so far.

 

[Obedeli]

Pick your battles well.
Honestly, it does you no good to be a habitual debator. Whatever you do, DO NOT do this in your clinical years. There are more tactful ways to argue (I found this, can you tell me where I went wrong, etc). If this habit follows you in your clinical years, your local faculty in the specialty you are interested in may find out. Residency is a job, they don't want someone who is going to argue over the smallest detail. They cease to be impressed by your "correctness" and become more interested in who you are as a person. Clinical professors talk to each other, troublesome students do become known.

 

[CarerraGT]

I think you should just drop it and accept that you got the questions wrong. You are not going to get anywhere by 'proving you are right and he is wrong' - you'll just end up looking like a gunner jerk. Alternately, do what cooldreams suggests and meet with the main professor. The back-and-forth email thing can only go so far.

well im not arguing for who is right and who is wrong - I would just like to get the points for the test. he was just rude in his email which was a bit annoying

As for dropping it, i think thats not a wise option because if i need those few points, going back after the grades are in will not be possible. If i dont argue for them now, i might as well accept the grade - which noone will want to do if its an F.

I have met with the main person but he needs to run the questions through the other professors who wrote them, and for that, he forwarded my concerns via email and they are now conveying back to me and him via email

 

[Jeffy]

what a b*tch it must be to have an incorrectly spelled username.

 

[cooldreams]

what a b*tch it must be to have an incorrectly spelled username.

i would still happily accept the car even if they misspelled it though 🙂 hehe

 

[tupac_don]

well im not arguing for who is right and who is wrong - I would just like to get the points for the test. he was just rude in his email which was a bit annoying

As for dropping it, i think thats not a wise option because if i need those few points, going back after the grades are in will not be possible. If i dont argue for them now, i might as well accept the grade - which noone will want to do if its an F.

I have met with the main person but he needs to run the questions through the other professors who wrote them, and for that, he forwarded my concerns via email and they are now conveying back to me and him via email

Two things:

1) You say "He was just rude in his email which was a bit annoying". Did you consider that maybe he finds you annoying for bugging him for a couple of points on the exam. If the question was truly unfair they would have given it to everyone.

2) If you have to fight for a couple of questions just to pass the class, you are not in good shape. I mean come on if you are good you should have at least 5-10% cushion between failing grade and your score. Professors defiently don't want to get someone away on a technicality if you are gonna cruise by with 1 question that he conceeded to you.

 

[Paws]

Well, I can see both sides of the issue here but I gotta agree with the others that this is medschool = zipping the lip and sucking up.

I am no way perfect at that and I have to really fight with myself sometimes to just stick it out and do whatever it takes to 1) have that cushion so I am never fighting for a few points, and 2) doing whatever I can to make sure I don't ever have to talk to the professor - except to make some kind of pleasantry.

It's not ideal but what can you do? I have tried to talk to different profs and some are way nicer than others. If someone is nice then I really appreciate it. But I sort of expect proffs to be not interested in students. It s*cks big time but that's they way it is. I am nervous about clinicals because then who you are as a person will REALLY be super important. Plus, you get way pimped and that takes alot to just not get upset over it and keep going. I am going to really have to polish my sucking up skills for that !

 

[waterski232002]

If you have to fight for a couple of questions just to pass the class, you are not in good shape. I mean come on if you are good you should have at least 5-10% cushion between failing grade and your score. Professors defiently don't want to get someone away on a technicality if you are gonna cruise by with 1 question that he conceeded to you.

Agree.... They won't have pity on you (even if the question is suspect) if you're barely passing. You need to work harder to give yourself a cushion... I know that sounds harsh, but that's the truth.

 

[4 Ever]

first off - if u wont see the guy as a professor or during rounds again, then i wouldnt think its a big problem about challenging him. Its only when they come back in a more authoritative role that you get screwed over.

also, you might not be on the border after the shelf - from what people say the shelf exams are tough but there is a crazy curve so you might do fine.

i would disagree with most of the people above about not arguing for the points - people argue for Honors/HP, Pass/HP, and its more important if youre on the border of F/P - especially so for F/P situation. The last thing you would want to do is to sit in a class if you have to repeat it wondering, what if i just argued for a few more points.

just my 2 cents

 

[wonderkid]

1) wtf is a shelf exam??????
2) did the f'in professor you emailed get back to you after you emailed him the articles and websites???

 

[4 Ever]

Shelf exams are exams that are written by the NBME as a standard measure of knowledge for a specific topic. They have a wide range of exams that the school usually purchases and tests their students with. Usually the tests are very difficult and almost everyone (from what i hear) fails them. Then, the NBME curves the test and sends it back to the school. The school usually then applies their own curve so it doesn't lead to a lot of their kids failing.

My school recently gave us its version of a biochem and anatomy/embryo shelf. THe biochem wasnt bad and neither was anatomy - the embryo section however was horrible (mostly because i didnt study - and i suspect most of my classmates didnt either)

 

[Entei]

i would disagree with most of the people above about not arguing for the points - people argue for Honors/HP, Pass/HP, and its more important if youre on the border of F/P - especially so for F/P situation. The last thing you would want to do is to sit in a class if you have to repeat it wondering, what if i just argued for a few more points.

The point is that you're not doing anyone any favors if you have to argue for a few points to be able to pass an exam. If you're that close to failing, then there are problems with your grasp of the material that need to be addressed.

To the OP, were you struggling with this material before the exam? What's the reason that you think you're on the verge of failing? If you've just got the normal post-exam jitters, then it's probably a good idea to just let the issue with the professor drop. If there's some reason why you really, truly think you failed, then it's good that you already let the course director know about it, but now it might be a good idea to wait until you find out how you did before you pursue the matter further.

Good luck!

 

[4 Ever]

The point is that you're not doing anyone any favors if you have to argue for a few points to be able to pass an exam. If you're that close to failing, then there are problems with your grasp of the material that need to be addressed.

To the OP, were you struggling with this material before the exam? What's the reason that you think you're on the verge of failing? If you've just got the normal post-exam jitters, then it's probably a good idea to just let the issue with the professor drop. If there's some reason why you really, truly think you failed, then it's good that you already let the course director know about it, but now it might be a good idea to wait until you find out how you did before you pursue the matter further.

Good luck!

I definitely agree that the OP needs to find out why he/she is on the edge of failing.

But, sometimes it doesnt have to deal with the individual not performing well, the class itself might be doing poorly as a group (in which case, who to blame, who to blame). At my school, we had an average of an F on its first exam (68ish) - they nicely added a few points to bump it to a passing score so it didnt seem as if the class was being taught poorly, or being tested poorly. so when you consider that you have a class of 68 (there was a beautiful bell shape curve around this region with half the kids below and half above), there is definitely something wrong.

 

[8744]

Well, I can see both sides of the issue here but I gotta agree with the others that this is medschool = zipping the lip and sucking up.

I am no way perfect at that and I have to really fight with myself sometimes to just stick it out and do whatever it takes to 1) have that cushion so I am never fighting for a few points, and 2) doing whatever I can to make sure I don't ever have to talk to the professor - except to make some kind of pleasantry.

It's not ideal but what can you do? I have tried to talk to different profs and some are way nicer than others. If someone is nice then I really appreciate it. But I sort of expect proffs to be not interested in students. It s*cks big time but that's they way it is. I am nervous about clinicals because then who you are as a person will REALLY be super important. Plus, you get way pimped and that takes alot to just not get upset over it and keep going. I am going to really have to polish my sucking up skills for that !

Excellent advice. Sometimes it just comes down to zipping your lips, sucking it up, and moving on. Our tests were usually two hundred questions in length. One or two questions will almost never be the difference between passing and failing unless, as someone pointed out, you are on the cusp of failing in which case one question is not going to save you. I just can not get excited about 0.5 percent of my total score, especially since I usually hovered in that comfortable zone around 75 on most of my tests.

As to emailing a professor to basically say, "Nyah nyah nyah, I was right and you were wrong," this is very unprofessional and is not a good way to win friends and influence people. This is the kind of thing you only do if the stakes are high or if you really, really hate somebody and the satisfaction of humiliating them is worth the burden of making a life-long enemy.

I would also never dream of contradicting an attending on the wards. First of all, my knowledge base is not large enough where I feel confident enough to attempt it. Second, even if I was sure I was right and the attending was wrong I'd still keep my mouth shut because it just doesn't matter. What is the point of embarassing your boss? It's just bad manners. Also as a third or fourth year you will never know more than your attending. It's impossible. The only place you will see a medical student countermand an attending to prevent him from harming a patient is on ER. It just doesn't happen in real life.

Repeat to yourself, "I am not Patch Adams, I am not Patch Adams..."

 

[FutureNobel]

Arguing the wording of a question is not only annoying, it makes you look desperate. If you pass, you pass, if not, deal with it.

 

[4 Ever]

actually wording *does* matter

i.e. on a practice practical they were looking for a nerve but asked us to identify a blood vessel.

if it were an exam, im sure there would be enough people mentioning this incorrect wording to result in the question being tossed.

 

[Bevo]

does your school have a system to argue questions?

At ross we had up to 24 hours post exam where we could submit a form questioning questions on the exam. We had to describe the question and put down what we thought it should have been and provide evidence of why we thought our answer was correct or why the question or answer choices were incorrect. Had to come from required textbooks and could not come from a review book.

I think this then went to the head of the dept for that question. If it was indeed wrong, the question was dropped from the test. Or if there was more than 1 right answer, they might have then accepted 2 answers as the correct choice, etc.

After the 24 hour period, you couldn't do anything about the test.

I probably would have gone to the head of the dept and asked them. But they're not always receptive themselves.

It's probably too late to do something like that now, but maybe see next term to try and get such a system setup.

 

[Discobolus]

I think arguing with the professor really depends on the professor. I have a pretty laid back class, but we have a few gunners. I found out after our genetics course was over that several of them basically had a very heated running e-mail "discussion" with our course director the whole year, complete with accusations of arrogance and rudeness and line by line grammar corrections 😀 The thing is I think the course director actually enjoyed this sort of thing because I have a feeling he was a huge gunner in medical school himself. This is probably an exception though and I would never do it myself.

 

[CarerraGT]

my school has a 4 day policy after the exam for which we are allowed to contest questions. I had emailed the professor on the 3rd day (i had an exam 2days after the exam in question so didn't have time to sit down and write my comments for the questions). After that the questions have been tossed to other professors and they are supposed to either agree that there is either another correct answer choice for the question or state why my reasoning would be wrong. for one question I was responded to and i understood my mistake. I didn't need to argue it further since he had pointed out the flaw in my thinking.

Also, i am not arguing on the technicality of the question and and nor do i want it to be thrown out. I am simply stating that based on what the question stated and from what I know (prior to the test and after looking it up thorougly), there is another acceptable answer choice which was marked as incorrect.

 

[phoenixsupra]

my school has a 4 day policy after the exam for which we are allowed to contest questions. I had emailed the professor on the 3rd day (i had an exam 2days after the exam in question so didn't have time to sit down and write my comments for the questions). After that the questions have been tossed to other professors and they are supposed to either agree that there is either another correct answer choice for the question or state why my reasoning would be wrong. for one question I was responded to and i understood my mistake. I didn't need to argue it further since he had pointed out the flaw in my thinking.

Also, i am not arguing on the technicality of the question and and nor do i want it to be thrown out. I am simply stating that based on what the question stated and from what I know (prior to the test and after looking it up thorougly), there is another acceptable answer choice which was marked as incorrect.

CarreraGT I think that's how it's spelled. Common mistake. 😉 Really, you're spending way too much mental energy on bickering over very little. Many questions in medschool are equivocal. Rather than argueing what's "correct", try learning the professor's mentality and working out what he tends to think of as correct. Even with the "parade of stars" there's usually one guy who overlooks the questions and compiles the exam. He's your mark, learn how he thinks.

Really you're better off just spending this energy studying harder. Come to terms with how arbitrary things are at this stage. It'll help you when you get to the wards where things are COMPLETELY arbitrary. Good luck 🙂

 

[medic170]

Two things:

1) You say "He was just rude in his email which was a bit annoying". Did you consider that maybe he finds you annoying for bugging him for a couple of points on the exam. If the question was truly unfair they would have given it to everyone.

2) If you have to fight for a couple of questions just to pass the class, you are not in good shape. I mean come on if you are good you should have at least 5-10% cushion between failing grade and your score. Professors defiently don't want to get someone away on a technicality if you are gonna cruise by with 1 question that he conceeded to you.

I totally agree. In addition, if these questions were really that bad, I would think the majority of people in the class would get it wrong. Now, I have not statred med school yet, but in my experience, if most of the class misses a particular question, 1 of 2 things happens.
1. The prof simply throws out the question because s/he sees the error in it.
2. The prof brings it up in class, says "most of you missed this" and explains the topic again so people understand it.

Did the majority of the people in your class miss the question?

Now, here is my advice:
Rather than sending an email criticising the question, I think you would be MUCH better off, and get better results, if you simply meet with the prof and say "Sir, I missed questions x,y, and z. I though I had answered them correctly, could you please explain the question and your reasonong for the correct answer so that I understand this topic better and do not miss questions on this topic in the future?"
That way, you are approaching the prof positivly instead of negativly, you are not making any accusations, and you sound more like a curious and active learner than a gunner or know-it-all.

My 2 cents.

 

[CarerraGT]

I totally agree. In addition, if these questions were really that bad, I would think the majority of people in the class would get it wrong. Now, I have not statred med school yet, but in my experience, if most of the class misses a particular question, 1 of 2 things happens.
1. The prof simply throws out the question because s/he sees the error in it.
2. The prof brings it up in class, says "most of you missed this" and explains the topic again so people understand it.

the question had to do with a lab related experiment and this question dealt somewhat with things that i had worked with in my undergrad research. I dont think many students would have gotten the question wrong because a lot of them seemed confused during the lecture on this topic while i didn't (id be a ***** not to after spending so many hours in the lab doing it). So they may have read the question and not seen it the same way i did.

regardless, like i have mentioned before, the questions cannot be answered by one single professor and as such, I cannot sit down with the main guy to discuss the questions since he wont know the answers to them.

also, i had initially presented my questions wording them as "from my understanding, i believed this and that...." I didn't word it in a confrontational manner but the response I received was along the lines of "you're understanding is wrong". After referring to texts and journals to support my "understanding", i don't think its gunnerish to correct the professor, especially through email. This isn't a round on rotation where I am doing it publically so its not like im insulting his pride or kquestioning his nowledge in front of people

but phoenix had good advice so ill just stick to it. from what a few people here have suggested, its not a good idea to argue with professors.

 

[4 Ever]

arguing with professors is generally not a good thing

the last thing you want is to have some vindictive professor or doctor making life a living hell for the rest of your years at that school

 

[8744]

File this under "Don't Fight City Hall."

I would never contest a speeding ticket, for example, because the time and effort is not worth the fine. Even if you go to court and win the case because the State Trooper was just hassling you, so what? Whoop-de-doo. If you are a habitual speeder you're eventually going to move up into a higher insurance bracket anyways and if you are not, one speeding ticket on your record is nothing.

On the other hand, if the cops broke down my door by mistake and roughed me up I would certainly make an issue of it.

Point is, you need to pick your battles. One measly question on a test is not the one you should pick.

 

[phoenixsupra]

File this under "Don't Fight City Hall."

I would never contest a speeding ticket, for example, because the time and effort is not worth the fine. Even if you go to court and win the case because the State Trooper was just hassling you, so what? Whoop-de-doo. If you are a habitual speeder you're eventually going to move up into a higher insurance bracket anyways and if you are not, one speeding ticket on your record is nothing.

On the other hand, if the cops broke down my door by mistake and roughed me up I would certainly make an issue of it.

Point is, you need to pick your battles. One measly question on a test is not the one you should pick.

Yeah, fighting city hall is a bad idea. Get in the habit of having good habits.

That being said, I ALWAYS fight traffic tickets and I usually win. The judge is impressed that you actually turn up and cut's you a lot of slack when he sees your occupation. Not fair, but I'm not complaining. 😉 😀

 

[4 Ever]

in jersey, you should ALWAYS fight the ticket - or rather, go talk to the prosecutor to drop the points that will get thrown on your license if you just pay the ticket without arguing.

then the insurance will rape you for another 5-600 a year over the course of the next 3-4years. id much rather argue ahead of time and pay 300 bucks to save that 2000

 

[phoenixsupra]

in jersey, you should ALWAYS fight the ticket - or rather, go talk to the prosecutor to drop the points that will get thrown on your license if you just pay the ticket without arguing.

then the insurance will rape you for another 5-600 a year over the course of the next 3-4years. id much rather argue ahead of time and pay 300 bucks to save that 2000

Amen to that. 😀 In the courtroom the trick is to play to the judge, not the crowd and never make the cop look bad. Nine times out of ten the judge will just throw it out. 😉