Army General Surgery Questions

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Ave21

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Hello all,

I have been a silent observer of this board now for about 2 1/2 years now and I finally have question I feel some of you may be able to help me out with. I am an Army HPSP 3rd year student and have pretty much decided on General surgery. Whether or not you are a general surgeon, you have probably known an Army surgeon or two. I am finishing up my surgery rotation at Cook County Hospital in Chicago and I'm thinking that with County being a state run facility Army surgery can be much different. (I'm sure I'll get some comments on that statement)

I would really like some input/tips on what to expect, look for, and strive for during this point in my path towards Army General Surgery. Thanks for all your input.

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Unfortunately, now is a bad time to be starting surgery training in the military. One might argue whether military residencies in general are good or bad, but it is undeniable that all military general surgery training programs are struggling to get adequate case volume and complexity. Residents at the Army training program that I work with have been very disgruntled about a sharp drop in case volume over the last couple years. You will not find any hospital in the military which is as large and busy as Cook County with level I trauma and a high volume of crazy pathology. Perhaps the lack of ancillary support and oppressive bureaucracy would be similar between Cook County and a typical Army facility.

On the positive side, the Army still seems to have a committment to try and maintain surgical volume, unlike the Air Force and Navy. I have also heard encouraging things about the new combined Wilford-Hall/BAMC residency which probably will be a large enough entity to support a decent training program. But on the negative side, the Army continues to try and maintain freestanding surgery residencies at several very small, low-volume hospitals. Plus, they typically do not give out many civilian deferments.

If you are a top-notch candidate from an Allopathic school who can match into a solid civilian GS program, then my advice to you would be to try for a deferment (unlikely) or serve your time as a GMO then go to a civilian residency.

Please PM me if you want to hear some second-hand rumors about specific Army programs. I hear a lot from the residents and fellows here, but would not want to critique individual programs on an open forum.
 
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Although I was an attending in a USAF surgical program, I have to agree that case volume and diversity along with inadequate support and leadership will be your biggest problems. If you see having excess time to study for tests as a positive, that may be one thing you have going if you stay in a military residency. I'd use that time wisely.

Also, try to talk to current Army residents, especially chiefs of the respective programs to see how they feel about their programs.

Good luck.
 
But on the negative side, the Army continues to try and maintain freestanding surgery residencies at several very small, low-volume hospitals.

This is very true, and it's a major reason why I wouldn't recommend anyone join the army if they plan on doing a gen surg residency. If you match at WRAMC, Madigan, or BAMC, you'll likely be adequately trained. Whereas, if you match at beaumont or eisenhower you will not get the surgical case volume to be adequately trained.
 
This is very true, and it's a major reason why I wouldn't recommend anyone join the army if they plan on doing a gen surg residency. If you match at WRAMC, Madigan, or BAMC, you'll likely be adequately trained. Whereas, if you match at beaumont or eisenhower you will not get the surgical case volume to be adequately trained.
What about Tripler?
 
What are the averages case loads that these places are seeing? EAMC interns are at low 20s for surgeon junior and 40-50s for total cases at this point. Both chiefs will hit their numbers this year from my understanding.
 
Both chiefs will hit their numbers this year from my understanding.


The minimum case numbers set by the RRC are just that—the bare minimum. If a residency just barely meets its numbers, then there are severe problems with case volume. I finished GS residency with almost double the minimum numbers. The other issue is how you meet those numbers. A recent graduate of one of the Army programs told me that he basically learned to operate by doing away rotations at a civilian hospital 700 miles away. This reflects badly on a program.

I would never suggest that you will be inadequately trained by any RRC approved program, and certainly any residency would prepare you for the typical low-volume, low acuity military surgical practice. I’m sure that all of the programs can claim some great surgeons among their alumni.

Its just that some military programs suffer terribly by comparison to their civilian counterparts. The smaller military programs are non-academic community hospital programs with none of the benefits of a typical community hospital program (i.e. high volume, good ancillary support, less bureaucracy, nice perks). So you have residency programs with no national name recognition, no nationally prominent faculty, minimal research, low case volume, high number of away rotations, no level I trauma, minimal tertiary-referral type cases (Whipples, Liver resections, etc), high hassle factor, and weak ancillary support. If these programs were a part of the civilian match, they would be considered bottom of the barrel, and no US grad would rank them.
 
"The minimum case numbers set by the RRC are just that—the bare minimum. If a residency just barely meets its numbers, then there are severe problems with case volume. I would never suggest that you will be inadequately trained by any RRC approved program... "

EAMC has a brand new 5 yr accreditation. Not sure who said they were barely meeting the numbers. Last years chiefs hit all numbers and exceeded them by a substantial number from what I was told. Perhaps I should clarify that this years chiefs will be exceeding the numbers...not just barely meeting them. This is per them and several attendings. I take their word to be truth.


"Its just that some military programs suffer terribly by comparison to their civilian counterparts. The smaller military programs are non-academic community hospital programs with none of the benefits of a typical community hospital program (i.e. high volume, good ancillary support, less bureaucracy, nice perks). :


I would argue they arent at the level of John Hopkins or Pitt but they do see their share of referrals and don't suffer terribly by similar sized civilian programs. 2 whipples in the week before Christmas doesn't look too shabby in my eyes. Its apples to oranges to compare a big name program civ with a smaller program civ or military. I cant argue with the bureaucracy issue, but then again, that is the military.

"So you have residency programs with no national name recognition, no nationally prominent faculty, minimal research, low case volume, high number of away rotations, no level I trauma, minimal tertiary-referral type cases (Whipples, Liver resections, etc), high hassle factor, and weak ancillary support. If these programs were a part of the civilian match, they would be considered bottom of the barrel, and no US grad would rank them. "

"Residency without a national name/prominent faculty is true..then again, I would argue that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Having been in the world of research, the prominent faculty tend to be doing less in the OR/hospital and more in the speaker circuit and research world. There is nothing wrong with that...but you train to be a surgeon..not a paper producer. Anyone can publish, its a matter of whether that is your priority. Its all in what level of importance you put "a big name" as well.

The perception I received from EAMC isn't entirely the same as yours it seems. Pass rate last yr was 100% for both written and oral boards. All residents are actively involved in research with a $300,000 grant having just been given to one of them, another has a pending publication in the journal of trauma (even tho its not a level I), 4 presenting research at a vascular conference in DC, and 4 accepted to present at one of the larger surgical conferences in the south. There are only 3 residents accepted each year so those are pretty good odds if you ask me. The relatively new PD (3 yrs or so) seems to really push research activities and is having them produce from what I see/hear.

As for off site training, they train in Atlanta at Grady (where Dr. Feliciano and his wife are) which is one of the best level 1 sites in the south, and definitely on the higher end in the country. A 2 hour distance for a top training site I would take any day after a local level 1 that is much inferior. I had actually heard that the operative experience early on is better at Hood and Eisenhower from those who have rotated through all. Of course that is just second hand impression.
 
This is very true, and it's a major reason why I wouldn't recommend anyone join the army if they plan on doing a gen surg residency. If you match at WRAMC, Madigan, or BAMC, you'll likely be adequately trained. Whereas, if you match at beaumont or eisenhower you will not get the surgical case volume to be adequately trained.

This is why you have to take what you read on this site with a grain of salt. People have no idea what they are talking about. Beaumont is a very good training program that is thought highly of by many program directors, including BAMC. While Beaumont has no problem meeting the number of cases needed to graduate, consider the fact that 25K more troops are being moved to Fort Bliss. There are currently approx 9K troops. Fort Bliss with become the second largest military post in the world. We also have approx 65 thousand retirees in the surrounding area. While other programs may have difficulty with case numbers Beaumont should not be included with that group.
 
EAMC has a brand new 5 yr accreditation. Not sure who said they were barely meeting the numbers. Last years chiefs hit all numbers and exceeded them by a substantial number from what I was told. Perhaps I should clarify that this years chiefs will be exceeding the numbers...not just barely meeting them. This is per them and several attendings. I take their word to be truth.

So I take it you're a med student who's interested in gen surg. AVOID EAMC!!!!! You should ask the attendings for specific statistics (and keep in mind that their residents do away rotations at other hospitals, eg savannah, to get cases). I've worked at EAMC and can tell you with first hand knowledge that their gen surg residents do not get half the cases that residents at mid-tier civ programs get.

I would argue they arent at the level of John Hopkins or Pitt but they do see their share of referrals and don't suffer terribly by similar sized civilian programs. 2 whipples in the week before Christmas doesn't look too shabby in my eyes.
Hmm, 2 whipples in a week is definitely an unusual event at EAMC. I wouldn't exactly consider that to mean anything though.

Its apples to oranges to compare a big name program civ with a smaller program civ or military. I cant argue with the bureaucracy issue, but then again, that is the military.

Nobody is comparing it to a big name civilian program, we're comparing it to any non-bottom tier program. The residents at most state university hospital are busy as heck operating all the time.

"Residency without a national name/prominent faculty is true..then again, I would argue that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Having been in the world of research, the prominent faculty tend to be doing less in the OR/hospital and more in the speaker circuit and research world. There is nothing wrong with that...but you train to be a surgeon..not a paper producer. Anyone can publish, its a matter of whether that is your priority. Its all in what level of importance you put "a big name" as well.

I'm sorry, but that is some pretty bad med-student logic right there. Do you think the big name surgeons aren't operating? That wasn't the case at my med school!

Regardless, it's not really my concern whether you think EAMC is a decent gen surg program. It may have gotten better in the past couple years since Dr. North retired. My guess is that it still sucks, but don't take my word for it. Go there and find out for yourself.
 
This is why you have to take what you read on this site with a grain of salt. People have no idea what they are talking about. Beaumont is a very good training program that is thought highly of by many program directors, including BAMC.

which program directors are these again?

While Beaumont has no problem meeting the number of cases needed to graduate, consider the fact that 25K more troops are being moved to Fort Bliss. There are currently approx 9K troops. Fort Bliss with become the second largest military post in the world. We also have approx 65 thousand retirees in the surrounding area. While other programs may have difficulty with case numbers Beaumont should not be included with that group.

From my understanding, Beaumont, like EAMC, suffered a drop in the case volume years ago when a lot of the retired folks were told to go use medicare instead. The policy has largely been reversed. However, you can't turn the flow of patients off and then expect it to just immediately return as soon as you turn it back on. Once people start getting care somewhere else, they're gone.
 
REREAD MY POST!

WE ARE VERY BUSY HERE AT WBAMC. I KNOW THIS SINCE I AM IN THE GENERAL SURGERY PROGRAM. ARE YOU EVEN A SURGERY RESIDENT?

You can bad mouth other programs all day long, but I'm not going to let you trash talk my program to potential applicants. This is a very good program that many other people in the General Surgery community think highly of.
 
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This has turned out to be a great discussion, I hope it doesn't get too heated but it is very informative to future applicants like myself, please keep it up!

Whats the word on Tripler?

Thanks!!
 
Let me give you some info on WBAMC. I apologize that I got defensive, but it's like someone calling your mama fat.

The typical week on general surgery goes something like this:

Chief resident:
Mon- OR all day
Tue-Clinic
Wed-Academic day and pre-op clinic
Thur-OR all day
Fri-clinic

Junior resident (one per team)
Mon-scopes all day (EGD & COLO) usually 8-10 cases
Tue-clinic
Wed-Academic day and pre-op clinic
Thur-OR all day
Fri-clinic

This is an example of the schedule while on one of two general surgery teams
We also have a junior as the Day Surgeon on duty who takes care of the SICU, traumas that come in, and consults. There is a night SOD that does the same thing. The night SOD actually can get some pretty good cases-lap appys, ex-laps, lap choles.

Interns rotate through different surgical subspeciaties but spend 5 months on general/vascular surgery.

Everyone said interns don't operate much but I have about 35 cases so far 15 being General surgery cases

I hope this help and just keep in mind that most people on this forum making statements about the various general surgery programs are not general surgery residents themselves
 
REREAD MY POST!

WE ARE VERY BUSY HERE AT WBAMC. I KNOW THIS SINCE I AM IN THE GENERAL SURGERY PROGRAM. ARE YOU EVEN A SURGERY RESIDENT?

You can bad mouth other programs all day long, but I'm not going to let you trash talk my program to potential applicants. This is a very good program that many other people in the General Surgery community think highly of.

You aren't going to "let" them trash your program? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I'm in a position to work with surgeons in a variety of clinical settings and teaching programs due to the nomadic nature of my fellowship (which, btw, is the only reason I get enough advanced procedures) and I have to agree with general consensus. GS training in the military is subpar. Our staff are inexperienced and junior. Our caseload often lacks diversity. Reserve judgement on the adequacy of your training until you rotate outside the military as housestaff rather than a a stud and then see how you feel.
 
but I'm not going to let you trash talk my program to potential applicants.

I agree 100% that it makes no sense to be bashing an individual's program. Nobody wants to be told that the program where they bust their butt every day is poor. And the bottom line is that if you are aggressive, hard-working, and smart, you can be successful no matter where you train.

But for the benefit of those who are not yet involved with military GS, let's all be honest with ourselves. If you weren't forced to rank those military programs and could go anywhere you want, would you really have ranked your program #1? I certainly would not have ranked my GS program at all. Not that it wasn't good training, but given the ongoing hospital downsizing, paprework hassles, staff instability, etc. it certainly wasn't optimal.

Take a gander at the civilian surgery forum and notice what most students want in a residency program. Not many of them are wanting to train at a small hospital in West Texas with an average daily census of <150, that has no level I trauma center, VA-quality support staff, and relies on away rotations in Houston (700 miles away) for a significant fraction of the index cases. I don't think that it's "trash-talking" to simply point out the obvious.

And just by way of comparison, I'll post the weekly schedule for my civilian fellowship program.

Mon: OR all day
Tues: OR all day
Wed: OR all day
Thurs: OR all day
Friday: OR all day

Granted, fellowship is different than residency, but posting a chief resident weekly schedule that has clinic 3 days per week is not a good recruiting tool. It's a perfect illustration of the inherent problem with military surgical training--way to much administrative hassle for way to little operating.
 
With Dr. North departing, MAJOR changs came in the EAMC program.

Your assumptions are further inaccurate in my role, not a medical student, but a resident and graduate of a non-military medical school. All my surgery away rotations were in civilian programs as my school did not allow for 45 day rotations. I have seen the civ side and compare from my experiences at my home institution, away rotations, and prior reseach.

EAMC residents no longer rotate in Savannah. This is old information. There is only one out of state rotation, being at Bragg.

As for "med student logic", I was reflecting on my personal experience having been in medical research prior to getting my MD. Having worked for 2 separate large state schools, this is what I saw personally. Medical school only further solidified this impression. There are still those who are in the OR,Feliciano and Mattox are two that still seem to actively be in the OR on a regular basis in the civ world, but more often academics=less OR time.

Here is typical scheduled for interns and chief residents at EAMC.
For chiefs: in the OR everyday except am of academic day. I would estimate 75% of those afternoons they are in the OR as well. 1 days of clinic, which is not mandatory if they have a case in the OR (the junior residents and interns cover clinic on their own those days).

For interns, off service rotations include SICU, Orthopedics, ENT, GYN (surgical), CT surgery, and anesthesia. The rest are at EAMC in GS. All but anesthesia sees OR time that = cases. Anesthesia depends on the attending with some allowing the interns to scrubs after intubation, etc and others not. This past week, the intern on one of the 3 GS services was in the OR 3/5 days with 5 surgeon junior cases in addition to first assists. Every other week there is a 1 hour basic science lecture instead of am report. ASOD is around 1/7 and usually will see OR time there as well.

Junior resident schedules vary GREATLY in regards to which rotation they are in. One month of scopes = 100+ scopes for the typical junior resident. Other generalizations are difficult to make. SOD is 1/3 and will usually see OR time.

Fellowship schedule compared to chiefs still is apples to oranges in my opinion. I would except fellowship to be in the OR everyday, assuming that alot of the admin issues are taken care of by chiefs and staff. However, I do agree there is too much administrative tasks for chiefs typically.
 
With Dr. North departing, MAJOR changs came in the EAMC program.

Your assumptions are further inaccurate in my role, not a medical student, but a resident and graduate of a non-military medical school. All my surgery away rotations were in civilian programs as my school did not allow for 45 day rotations. I have seen the civ side and compare from my experiences at my home institution, away rotations, and prior reseach.

Well now I'm pretty confused. Are you saying that you're a resident at a civlian hospital? And you never rotated at EAMC? The 45 day thing makes no sense at all since pretty much no civ med schools allow 45 day rotations. The norm is to just rotate for 4 weeks (which what pretty much all HPSP and USUHS students do). Some of the other things you said didn't make much sense either. Eg., the ASOD definitely does not see much surgery time (yes, there are very rare occasions).

Regardless, I can say with 100% certainty that as of a few years ago, almost every EAMC gen surg resident would have told anyone unequivocally NOT to go there (off of the record of course). Perhaps things really have changed that much since Dr. North retired. But I'm skeptical.
 
"Well now I'm pretty confused. Are you saying that you're a resident at a civlian hospital? And you never rotated at EAMC? ....

No, res at EAMC. As a student and in my life as a prior researcher, I experienced the civ sector of medicine so Im not 100% skewed in my view that military medicine and EAMC is perfect. Then again, medicine in general is far from perfect.

ASOD does see OR time here, the chiefs are great about making sure that ASODs see OR time. In the not so rare event, SODs will cover for an ASOD to scrub in for a short case like an appy. Its a very collaborative environment. Rotating students have even remarked about this and the amount of time interns and mid levels see compared to some of the bigger locations. Even rotating students get to scrub in regularly if they chose to.

" Perhaps things really have changed that much since Dr. North retired. "

They say its day and night, but I wouldn't know. Our chiefs certainly things are different.
 
ASOD does see OR time here, the chiefs are great about making sure that ASODs see OR time. In the not so rare event, SODs will cover for an ASOD to scrub in for a short case like an appy.

So I assume you mean that the ASOD isn't getting the appy as a primary case, but gets to assist b/c the chief steals the case from the SOD (perhaps b/c the chief doesn't have enough appy's)? I find it hard to believe that ASOD's are getting many primary appy's b/c that NEVER happened once in my memory. In fact, the only cases that the ASOD's got were via the surgical subspecialties b/c the SOD and chiefs couldn't take them.

I'm sorry if I'm trashing your program. Obviously you know a lot more about it than me. And once again, perhaps it really has completely turned around in just a couple years. But I'm pretty skeptical of that, especially considering that their major issue used to be case volume. Although I can imagine that perhaps the super malignant environment that Dr. North fostered may have disappeared.
 
Rather than run down an individual program and provoke indignant replies from it’s residents, perhaps it would be better to list some key characteristics of a good surgical residency and then let the students decide how various military and civilian programs stack up as they go through interviews and rotations.

1. A large and busy home institution: You can’t learn to take care of patients if the patients aren’t there. I challenge anyone to find a civilian surgery residency based in a hospital with less than 300 beds (I’m sure they exist, but it’s rare).

2. High patient acuity: Often reflected in the number of ICU beds. If a hospital does not have a separate SICU with at least 15 beds, the acuity is probably not there.

3. Major clinical rotations on-site: Working at away rotations where you don’t know the attendings or the system is always sub-optimal.

4. Well known chairman: Would be reflected by presidency of regional or national societies, presence on the editorial board of major journals, or membership on the board of the ABS. Like it or not, who you know is important for getting fellowships and academic jobs.

5. Large and busy subspecialty services: Vascular, CT, Ped’s surg, Trauma, etc. are still important parts of general surgery training. Having one vascular surgeon, one ped’s surgeon, or one Trauma/critical care guy really doesn’t count as a “service.”

6. Stable, experienced group of faculty: Guys who are 1-2 years out of training are still learning their craft, and are probably not generally going to be the greatest teachers. There should be a lot of attendings who have been around the program for 5-10 years, and few gray-haired guys who have seen and done it all for 25 years or more.

7. Decent boards pass rate: Less than 60% first time pass rate may be a red flag. Probably no difference between an institution with a rate of 80% and one with 95%.

8. Minimal interference from fellows in the General Surgery resident experience.

9. Record of fellowship placements with some residents obtaining more competitive spots like ped’s surg. or surg. Onc. The simple fact is that the great majority of surgery residents are doing fellowships of some kind, and if you decide you really want to do a fellowship, you want to be competitive.

10. Research opportunities: Mandatory research years are probably bad, but every resident should be able to get their name on a couple papers without much hassle. Good to have on your CV for fellowship applications, and essential if you are looking for academic jobs.

I’m sure you could all come up with lots more, particularly in more subjective areas like resident camaraderie, or degree of “malignancy” but those things are really hard to quantify. Anyone can make up a bunch of crap about how “available” the chairman is or how much the residents like each other.
 
Hi all

What did the OP decide in the end?

Does everyone still generally agree with all of the above, or have things changed for the better / worse? How about at the specific programs mentioned above?

Thanks
 
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