Army Special Pay change

[Homunculus]

https://hr.mods.army.mil/SpecialPay/Documents/2013_03_12_13_49_28.pdf

Only time before the other services follow. Ouch.

--your friendly neighborhood let's renegotiate my commitment too while you're at it caveman

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[colbgw02]

Translation?

Does this only affect those who are re-upping? Those that are retiming payment with their fellowships?

Does this have any effect on garden variety ISP?

 

[Homunculus]

Translation?

Does this only affect those who are re-upping? Those that are retiming payment with their fellowships?

Does this have any effect on garden variety ISP?

Not sure. Looking into it, will post if I find anything concrete

--your friendly neighborhood source checking caveman

 

[MTGas2B]

Is this only for multi year pays? I assume ASP/ISP/VSP will be left alone. (Crossing fingers)

 

[delicatefade]

I haven't read it since it doesn't affect my specialty but the way it was explained to us, it only affects those in a 2nd residency or fellowship which would result in a new specialty with a higher specialty pay. If so, you will not receive higher pay until your contract is up. Once contract is up, if you re-up you can renegotiate to the higher pay. I'm not aware of any fellowships that result in higher pay (???), and doing a 2nd residency is almost unique to the military from what I've seen.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I haven't read it since it doesn't affect my specialty but the way it was explained to us, it only affects those in a 2nd residency or fellowship which would result in a new specialty with a higher specialty pay. If so, you will not receive higher pay until your contract is up. Once contract is up, if you re-up you can renegotiate to the higher pay. I'm not aware of any fellowships that result in higher pay (???), and doing a 2nd residency is almost unique to the military from what I've seen.

Cards, GI, some surgical specialties, etc.

The services are very limited in what they can change on their own. The real test will be what happens with the next round of bonuses from MHS.

 

[sonofva]

Sorry to be needy, but will someone explain what all this means in lay mans terms? What pay will we continue to receive?

 

[Chonal Atresia]

Does anybody know if this new regulation applies to everybody on his/her first contract that has previously renegotiated both for increased ISP bonus as well as signing date (i.e. July 1st from Oct 1st) or does it only apply to those people who try to do so from here on out that are on his/her first contract? Talk about another way to kill morale in an already depleted MEDCOM.

 

[delicatefade]

Got it, what a morale killer for IM and surgical types in fellowship right now. As if military physicians are the reason the nation is in debt...my hospital is 85% administration

 

[haujun]

Having been selected for military fellowship at end of my ADO I hope this does not affect my MSP...

 

[Slevin]

So what does that mean for the VSP, are we going to get pay increases when the year is up?

 

[Gastrapathy]

I think what it means is that anyone on an MSP cannot renegotiate that MSP every year. Once you sign it, it has to play out. The nasty part is where it says that approved but pending renegotiations are being cancelled. To me, this just lets everyone know that, as predicted, bonuses are the next target.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

This is a serious 5 digit pay cut for me. I am surprised I don't hear more complaining in the work place. It's hard for some to be sympathetic if they are getting a 20% pay cut like the civilians. I know some deranged docs who see this as another patriotic duty and others who feel like the rules should have always been interpreted this way. It just might backfire in that an experienced doc might not want a pay cut, might be wondering about re upping, and then decide on the civilian job offer instead. The biggest farce is that they are doing this in the name of "budget predictability". Yeah, you don't give me money- I predict you will have more.

 

[pgg]

Link isn't working from this side of the world. Can someone post the PDF as an attachment, or cut/paste the text?

Thanks.

 

[J-Rad]

Link isn't working from this side of the world. Can someone post the PDF as an attachment, or cut/paste the text?

Thanks.

.

 

[Homunculus]

my feelers are still collecting info but from what i can tell this pertains to multiyear agreements.

-- your friendly neighborhood tentacled caveman

 

[pgg]

My take - not that big a deal.


Previously you Army guys had the (generous and surprising) option of renegotiating multiyear MSP contracts if the rates went up. For the moment I guess Navy and AF still have this option.

Eg - you're in year 2 of a 4-year contract for a total of $50K extra per year when they raise the 4-year rate to $60K/year. You could sign a new 4-year contract at the $60K rate, effective immediately. (Doing so extends your ADSO to 4 years from the current date, but you get the higher pay immediately.)

I've always thought it was odd that they allowed mid-contract renegotiation for a higher rate. Not surprised at all they put a stop to it, but it does make me wonder what the point is, unless they plan to INCREASE the rates. Which seems unlikely. The only way they lose money is if someone bails on a cheaper contract for a more expensive one.



Here are the only two hitches that prevent me from saying it's not a big deal at all:

1) It appears that people with existing MSP contracts who do fellowships will no longer be able to renegotiate the contracts to align their ADSO dates. Now they'll be stuck with the same academic year vs fiscal year BS the rest of us live with: either decline ISP from the Oct 1 - Jun 30 period of the final year of ADSO ... or take it and extend the ADSO until Sep 30 of that year.

I'm not sure this is really that big a deal, as people taking MSP tend to be lifers anyway, so an extra 3 months might not carry the same sting as for the guy who's getting out ASAP.



2) Say you have 7 years until retirement.

Under the old circumstances, you could sign a 4-year contract for the maximum pay, then at year 3, 'renegotiate' another 4-year contract, even if the rates hadn't gone up. That way, you'd get the maximum 4-year rate the entire 7 years.

Now, you'd have to finish out the 4-year contract, then sign a 3-year contract at the lower 3-year rate. (Or sign a 2nd 4-year contract and stay an extra year.)


My MSP eligibility years number 8, so I'm luckily not affected by that, but it will surely affect some.



Edit - thanks J-Rad for posting the PDF.

 

[Gastrapathy]

This is a big deal for people who sign an MSP before fellowship and then want to renegotiate the expected higher rate thereafter. Anyone who did that in the last three years expecting things to be the way they always were will now have to wait out that old MSP (pretty big amount of cash for some IM subs).

I'm not sure I could look someone in the eye and tell them that $25,000 isn't a big deal (say IM MSP to GI MSP).

To me, the bigger deal is that this shows that they are looking at the special pays as part of the cost cutting and that would be very scary. This was a policy that the army could change unilaterally. Most of the special pay system is DoD-wide so I hope those changes aren't coming soon.

 

[pgg]

This is a big deal for people who sign an MSP before fellowship and then want to renegotiate the expected higher rate thereafter. Anyone who did that in the last three years expecting things to be the way they always were will now have to wait out that old MSP (pretty big amount of cash for some IM subs).

I'm not sure I could look someone in the eye and tell them that $25,000 isn't a big deal (say IM MSP to GI MSP).

Ugh, hadn't thought of that. In my specialty pre- and post-fellowship ISP/MSP is the same.

 

[DrMetal]

This is a big deal for people who sign an MSP before fellowship and then want to renegotiate the expected higher rate thereafter.

Forgive my naivety, but isn't this a "scam" that we've discussed before, that you can get the MSP of a specialty without actually practicing in it (while training in something else)? Could this be a calculated move, to go after the little "scams" first--and thus demonstrating to big DOD that the MC is doing its part--perhaps thwarting off much more significant cuts (to the baseline MSP for instance)?

 

[Gastrapathy]

I would never characterize a way to maximize our generally poor compensation as a scam. I also wouldn't think that this sort of trial balloon is anything other than the first skirmish in a war to cut compensation. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

I would never characterize a way to maximize our generally poor compensation as a scam. I also wouldn't think that this sort of trial balloon is anything other than the first skirmish in a war to cut compensation. Hope I'm wrong.

Nicely said.

My MSP before and after subspecialty fellowship is the same, but the difference between a re-do 4 yr deal and a wait for it 2 yr deal is $34000.

 

[NavyFP]

Just to add on the Navy side....

There is significant talk of needing fewer doctors in the not so distant future at BUMED. I would suspect we may see a change in Navy bonuses as well. It will likely be in the MSP/MISP arena. I don't forsee changes in ASP, VSP, or BCP. Those have not changed in decades. Regular ISP is probably safe as well.

Although the services are not required to have the same bonuses, they do have a tri-service conference to set them. That is typically in the late spring/early summer so they can set them for the following fiscal year. Army usually wins.

 

[narcusprince]

I heard rumours of buyouts

 

[MTGas2B]

I heard rumours of buyouts

In our world?

 

[narcusprince]

Im yanking your chain. We are overmanned. I have not heard of commitment buyouts.

 

[MTGas2B]

Just to add on the Navy side....

There is significant talk of needing fewer doctors in the not so distant future at BUMED. I would suspect we may see a change in Navy bonuses as well. It will likely be in the MSP/MISP arena. I don't forsee changes in ASP, VSP, or BCP. Those have not changed in decades. Regular ISP is probably safe as well.

Although the services are not required to have the same bonuses, they do have a tri-service conference to set them. That is typically in the late spring/early summer so they can set them for the following fiscal year. Army usually wins.

I'm sure BUMED has pleanty of desk doctors, and desk nurses, and MSC's floating around they could do without

 

[Kingfisher]

I'm sure BUMED has pleanty of desk doctors, and desk nurses, and MSC's floating around they could do without

There has always been an overabundance of nurses in milmed. Once they make 0-5 they no longer function as real nurses and just spend very waking moment trying to make life miserable for everyone else.

 

[colbgw02]

there has always been an overabundance of nurses in milmed. Once they make o-3 they no longer function as real nurses and just spend very waking moment trying to make life miserable for everyone else.

fify.

 

[Kingfisher]

fify.

Ha.

 

[psychbender]

Nah, they still do some clinical work as O3s. However, on promotion to O4, they are issued a clipboard, a chip for their shoulder, and a "glandular problem."

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[MTGas2B]

Nah, they still do some clinical work as O3s. However, on promotion to O4, they are issued a clipboard, a chip for their shoulder, and a "glandular problem."

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They also get sweaters when they make O-4. A least in the Navy.