!@#% Around and Found Out

[NewNeuroDemic]

About 2 years ago I was on the job market and looking to land one of those elusive clinical phd program tenure-track jobs. One such institution took a shine to me, and I went through the several lengthy interview days, gave a job talk, and generally whored myself to these academics who style themselves as business hiring professionals every few years when a job comes open. One of the hoops I had to jump through was "meeting" with the current grad students and "discussing" my role in DE&I currently and perhaps in their program should I be hired. (Looking back, it's pretty ridiculous to have current grad students, who will be gone eventually, evaluate a faculty candidate.)

So all of this goes well, and the senior faculty member on the search committee (but not the chair of it) tells me they are going to make me an offer because he DGAF about protocol. Three (3!) weeks go by and I get a call from the search committee chair. Instead of making me an offer, they decide to terminate my application because " didn't move forward any of their DE&I initiatives via [my] white cis-gendered identities." Pretty lame.

Well, the very next year and again about two weeks ago this same program posts their intention to hire and have the balls to call me asking if I would like to reapply. They haven't been able to land a decent hire, and their students are pissed about a lack of in-house neuropsych training. I won't lie, it felt good to laugh and decline the invitation. !@#$ around and find out.

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[PsyDr]

This has got to be made up.

No reasonable person would give you written evidence that they did not hire you based upon a protected class.

And you did not take this to an attorney for an easy $50k settlement because…

Naw.

 

[WisNeuro]

Sounds like he got a phone call, not sure if they also put it in writing.

 

[PikminOC]

Sounds like he got a phone call, not sure if they also put it in writing.

Yep during one of my interviews I was asked if I was going to have kids etc. All not in writing.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

So...

"Instead of making me an offer, they decide to terminate my application because I didn't move forward any of their DE&I initiatives via [my] white cis-gendered identities."

...means they did't hire you because you're a white guy who dates women. Right? I'm just trying to parse the woke-speak.

If so, I guess that my emotional response would be more in line with sadness/grief for the state of the profession (rather than resentful glee) but...to each his/her/their own, so to speak.

 

[calimich]

"So all of this goes well, and the senior faculty member on the search committee (but not the chair of it) tells me they are going to make me an offer because he DGAF about protocol."

yeah, sounds like a dysfunctional place. I wonder if the guy who DGAF about protocol, and undermined the committee chair, is another White cis-gendered dude? (thanks for the correction @ccpsych16)
Surprised they had a failed search... /s

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

This has got to be made up.

No reasonable person would give you written evidence that they did not hire you based upon a protected class.

And you did not take this to an attorney for an easy $50k settlement because…

Naw.

Not made up. The search committee chair called, didn't email.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

Sounds like he got a phone call, not sure if they also put it in writing.

Received a call, no email.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

So...

"Instead of making me an offer, they decide to terminate my application because I didn't move forward any of their DE&I initiatives via [my] white cis-gendered identities."

...means they did't hire you because you're a white guy who dates women. Right? I'm just trying to parse the woke-speak.

If so, I guess that my emotional response would be more in line with sadness/grief for the state of the profession (rather than resentful glee) but...to each his/her/their own, so to speak.

Your parsing of the woke-speak is correct. And it sounds like you are more emotionally mature and intelligent than I (and less selfish probably too) because I found it delightful to decline. To be clear, I was polite and cordial on the phone. Clinical psych is a small world.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

"So all of this goes well, and the senior faculty member on the search committee (but not the chair of it) tells me they are going to make me an offer because he DGAF about protocol."

yeah, sounds like a dysfunctional place. I wonder if the guy who DGAF about protocol, and undermined the committee chair, is another White cis-gendered dude?
Surprised they had a failed search... /s

Yes, he was an endowed chair, long tenured, white, cis-gendered dude.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Some of the therapists I worked with recently would refer to people like the OP as mediocre white males that just whine when they no longer get their privilege.

 

[WisNeuro]

Looks like a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good. "We can't get a candidate that checks every single box we're looking for, so we'll just check no boxes!"

 

[WisNeuro]

Some of the therapists I worked with recently would refer to people like the OP as mediocre white males that just whine when they no longer get their privilege.

Yeah, the progressive wing of psychology has become especially toxic in recent years. We're currently in the over correction phase of the pendulum swing.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

Some of the therapists I worked with recently would refer to people like the OP as mediocre white males that just whine when they no longer get their privilege.

Ha! I probably am mediocre.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Your parsing of the woke-speak is correct. And it sounds like you are more emotionally mature and intelligent than I (and less selfish probably too) because I found it delightful to decline. To be clear, I was polite and cordial on the phone. Clinical psych is a small world.

I'm not more emotionally mature or intelligent, I am just having a different reaction, I think, than the person this actually happened to. I'm sure that it makes a difference if you've experienced it vs. are just reading about it (like me). What is sad is all the discord surrounding issues like this in our field and I think it sucks that you had to experience that.
For whatever reasons the DEI topic does tend to elicit strong emotional and, in my opinion, often extreme ideological stances and I wish--as someone commented earlier--that we could correct the pendulum over-swing and find some moderate ground for the profession as a whole on these issues.

I think one rather obvious stance--though it is rarely explicitly stated or addressed-- is the apparent opinion (value) is that if you happen to be a white heterosexual male in psychology then you have no place in this profession (neither you nor your values) and, if we allow you to exist at all, you'd better be happy and submissive and take your place at the bottom of the hierarchy.

 

[smalltownpsych]

The whole grad students in charge of evaluating for someone’s attitudes about DEI is a setup for problems. It would not be surprising for younger people to have a bias that older people are implicitly racist, homophobic maintainers of the power structure of systemic racism. I have seen that play out a few times as well aka boomers.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

The whole grad students in charge of evaluating for someone’s attitudes about DEI is a setup for problems. It would not be surprising for younger people to have a bias that older people are implicitly racist, homophobic maintainers of the power structure of systemic racism. I have seen that play out a few times as well aka boomers.

"Burn the warlock!"

 

[WisNeuro]

The whole grad students in charge of evaluating for someone’s attitudes about DEI is a setup for problems. It would not be surprising for younger people to have a bias that older people are implicitly racist, homophobic maintainers of the power structure of systemic racism. I have seen that play out a few times as well aka boomers.

It sounded more like the grad student got to meet with the candidate. Which I did not find odd, we met with candidates as grad students and gave feedback to faculty.

 

[Sanman]

Complete and total sidebar, been watching Partner Track on Netflix with the wife. I think they did an interesting job of covering the spectrum of diversity issues and making fun of both sides.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Ducks are not witches, ducks float, so if she doesn’t float, then she’s a witch!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Complete and total sidebar, been watching Partner Track on Netflix with the wife. I think they did an interesting job of covering the spectrum of diversity issues and making fun of both sides.

Go take your nap, boomer!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Go take your nap, boomer!

Just kidding and referencing your avatar. 😉

 

[Shiori]

I don't think psychology has overcorrected much. It's primarily folks from majority groups arguing amongst themselves. That is the status quo. We're regularly snarky about our interests. SDN is a catalog of folks snipping at each other about various topics. We have two or three threads right now simmering and occasionally boiling. DEI is the new hotness at the moment and will likely fade. Hopefully that'll make it easier for the hard, tedious work to continue.

 

[Sanman]

Go take your nap, boomer!

I wish I was that close to retirement and a nap sounds good with all the terrible weather right now.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Ducks are not witches, ducks float, so if she doesn’t float, then she’s a witch!

Monty Python and the Holy Grail should be required viewing for any grad program as a reminder not to take ourselves--or our theories--too seriously.

And your father was a hamster and your mother smelt of elderberries smalltownpsych!

 

[smalltownpsych]

Monty Python and the Holy Grail should be required viewing for any grad program as a reminder not to take ourselves--or our theories--too seriously.

And your father was a hamster and your mother smelt of elderberries smalltownpsych!

Now that’s an insult. 🤣

 

[Sanman]

Monty Python and the Holy Grail should be required viewing for any grad program as a reminder not to take ourselves--or our theories--too seriously.

And your father was a hamster and your mother smelt of elderberries smalltownpsych!

'Tis but a scratch!

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

'Tis but a scratch!

I'll cut your legs off...

 

[Sanman]

I'll cut your legs off...

I'm invincible!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Rather fitting....

Now we see the violence inherent in the system....help, help, I'm being repressed!

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Rather fitting....

Now we see the violence inherent in the system....help, help, I'm being repressed!

Okay, okay, that was good, lol

 

[borne_before]

I'm just popping in to say if you haven't tried being a while male, you need to absolutely try it out sometime. It's pretty awesome.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I'm just popping in to say if you haven't tried being a while male, you need to absolutely try it out sometime. It's pretty awesome.

Chappelle had some good stuff, too. Absolute genius.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

OP, you posted a few months ago about posters versus conference presentations as a new TT faculty member. If that isn't a display of privilege in the academic hiring market, I don't know what is.

Making the professional choice to not bother with posters and focus on paper presentations is a privilege? My success rate in acceptance of the latter is low compared to the former.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, I guess I'm not following that privilege comment either. Posters weren't a priority for any of the faculty I worked with. Even as grad students we only threw together posters so we could qualify for conference travel funding.

 

[WisNeuro]

That was my exact point, actually.

That posters don't matter for anyone but student travel funds?

 

[Sanman]

That posters don't matter for anyone but student travel funds?

I think the point was, how are you being considered for a TT position if you are still asking those questions.

 

[WisNeuro]

I think the point was, how are you being considered for a TT position if you are still asking those questions.

Seemed like a fairly innocuous question for an early career person. Also probably varies quite a bit by institution and "prestige."

 

[futureapppsy2]

(Never mind, I'm noping out of this one. Have fun, sincerely, everyone)

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[Sanman]

Seemed like a fairly innocuous question for an early career person. Also probably varies quite a bit by institution and "prestige."

, my goal has always been the most amount of money for the least amount of work, so I never understood academia from the go.

 

[WisNeuro]

, my goal has always been the most amount of money for the least amount of work, so I never understood academia from the go.

I enjoyed the academic part, but yeah, the work to reward ratio also did not work out for me. Coincidentally, the clinical work is starting to go the same way.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I enjoyed the academic part, but yeah, the work to reward ratio also did not work out for me. Coincidentally, the clinical work is starting to go the same way.

I believe that salary escalation--in relation to amount of work/effort required--is the type of escalation we could all be in favor of. Kudos to you for making it happen.

 

[WisNeuro]

I believe that salary escalation--in relation to amount of work/effort required--is the type of escalation we could all be in favor of. Kudos to you for making it happen.

It's an option open to most. I have a lot of colleagues who would be good for this work, but the thought of depo/trial type stuff just terrifies them out of even considering it.

 

[NewNeuroDemic]

Yeah, I guess I'm not following that privilege comment either. Posters weren't a priority for any of the faculty I worked with. Even as grad students we only threw together posters so we could qualify for conference

I really do not understand that posters comments, and now they're deleted.

 

[calimich]

, my goal has always been the most amount of money for the least amount of work, so I never understood academia from the go.

if your goal has always been max money for minimal work, why in the world did you choose a psych phd? or any phd really? seems you were set up for disappointment and misunderstanding from the start

 

[Mad Jack]

Looks like a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good. "We can't get a candidate that checks every single box we're looking for, so we'll just check no boxes!"

Many such cases

 

[Sanman]

if your goal has always been max money for minimal work, why in the world did you choose a psych phd? or any phd really? seems you were set up for disappointment and misunderstanding from the start

That answer is a bit complicated, but I got into my program straight out of undergrad. I was barely 21 and it was the path of least resistance. So, I did not exactly struggle to get where I am.

 

[smalltownpsych]

if your goal has always been max money for minimal work, why in the world did you choose a psych phd? or any phd really? seems you were set up for disappointment and misunderstanding from the start

I actually think that it is a bit of a myth to think that there are other paths to make more money with less work. More money, sure, but less work at the same time, that’s harder to find.

 

[WisNeuro]

Also, there are definitely ways to make pretty good money in psych.