Arrrgh --- $*%&%& eppp!

[REBT Dude]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Is there any other professional hurdle more shrouded in secrecy, administered more bizarrely, of just plain questionable utility as the Examination for the Professional Practice of Psychology (EPPP)??

In their own materials, ASPPB (the sponsors) admit that the exam cannot be validated because it alone determines if one will be able to practice as a psychologist. You can't compare the work of psychologists who passed the test with those who did not pass the test because the latter group never GET to practice psychology!

Now, don't get me wrong -- of course I believe there should be some form of consumer protective evaluation before one is licensed to practice psychology.

But, you spend years in graduate school ... a year of internship and another post-doc. And THEN -- you get to take the all-or-nothing EPPP.

You are forbidden to talk about any of its content (for security purposes, or course!) And you are warned that you stand practically ZERO chance of passing the exam unless you purchase one of (only) three test-prep packages (bare-bones cost around $500 while you can spend over $5,000 on the premium packages -- including the cost to travel to one of the "test prep workshops" which are only held in 4 - 5 major cities a few times a year.)

First you need permission from your state board to REGISTER for the test. Then you have to arrange the test with Professional Examination Service, who then submits your information to Association of State and Provincial Psychology Boards (ASPPB, who actually produce the exam). Then you are given permission to actually SCHEDULE the exam with Prometric Services.

Total cost for JUST the exam: $506
PLUS the cost to take the exam at Prometric: $65

(We'll ignore for the moment the fact that while Prometric is pretty large, you likely will have to travel some distance to GET to your test site.)

Then you take the exam and are warned do NOT call PES, ASPPB, the state board, Prometric, directory assistance, or your state legistlator about your score -- NO one knows what it is until it is sent to you.

Of course, in SOME states, they will EMail you a pass/fail notice almost immediately. In others, you will wait weeks to hear ANYthing. Mind you, ASPPB tells you that scores are reported to the state boards twice monthly -- but they do not tell you WHEN. (Conventional wisdom is the 15th and the 30th).

Meanwhile, you are just left twisting in the wind, biting off your fingernails to the quick, waiting to hear SOMEthing, ANYthing because most every post-doc knows, failing the exam (which more than a few people do), almost always means immediate loss of your post-doc job.

If you haven't guessed ... I took the exam July 2nd ... it is now the 17th and I have not heard a thing!

Best of luck, gang!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

15th and 30th I thought.....though I'm not sure how "exact" they are with their dates. I am NOT looking forward to this process.

 

[REBT Dude]

I don't really see the exam as all that arduous of a hurdle.

I'd agree with you Jon that the exam should NOT be that arduous of a hurdle.

But what does it say about a profession which prides itself on, ostensibly, being the experts in creating valid tests, that it uses a (self-admittedly) invalid test as its qualifying standard?

What about the fact that EPPP prep materials themselves identify "assessment centers" as the most reliably predictive of vocational success? Practical application of skills/knowledge while under supervision -- isn't that precisely what practicum/internship/post-doc are?

And let's not forget that one learns about these assessment centers in the I/O materials section -- a specialty in psychology which almost NO clinical program includes -- but is a large part of the EPPP, the licensing exam for clinical psycholgists.

Or the fact that we argue long and loud about whether psychologists should have RxP, but the EPPP today asks questions about which medications should be prescribed for which conditions?

Finally, you might want to visit some of the EPPP discussion groups. I've taken a few qualifying exams in my life but never heard of the nearly universal departing feeling of failure that EPPP takers share. What does it say about an exam when most applicants are surprised when they learn they passed?

I get the impression, Jon, from looking over many of your posts that you seem to take the position that if you didn't experience any difficulty/turmoil/discomfort in an experience/process than when others express concern, "obviously" it is a problem unique to them. Isn't there something covered in all that psychology training about establishing rapport and empathy?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Finally, you might want to visit some of the EPPP discussion groups. I've taken a few qualifying exams in my life but never heard of the nearly universal departing feeling of failure that EPPP takers share. What does it say about an exam when most applicants are surprised when they learn they passed?

The Bar.

You do make some good points about the validity issues.

 

[psychmama]

I felt like I failed the Bar exam years ago, only to discover I'd passed. Like the EPPP, law students must learn a whole bunch about stuff they never studied in school and have no intention of ever using. I think it comes with entering a profession where the government's concern in regulation and protecting the public.

This too (like all hurdles to becoming a licensed professional) shall pass.

Hang in there and good luck!

 

[REBT Dude]

I guess it's "good" to hear that some other professions feel as much anxiety about their licensing exams.

The Bar exam's reputation as a gut-buster is long and illustrious.

However, knowing nothing about legal training, do lawyers-to-be have the equivalent of practica/internship/fellowship as psychologists do?

As a nation, we are currently embroiled in a debate about high stakes testing in grades K-12, where the major counter-argument is that the body of work a student completes over the course of a school year should have more weight than a test taken over one day.

Amazing how little changes once you get to the "big leagues" of professional licensure.

I'm sure my perspective will adjust when (if) I get good news in the next day or two. But isn't that the core of the problem? Regardless of how valid this process is, most of us suck it up, hold our noses, push our way through it, never again to consider how unpleasant (or irrelevant) the experience was.

 

[psychmama]

To answer your questions:

1) The training/education model for lawyers and psychologists are distinctly different. Law school is only 3 yrs and law students don't do the intensive practica and supervision that we do in psychology. When I got out of law school the sum total of my practical experience consisted of two summers of clerking -- first at a state agency and then at a law firm. Most of that training was in doing legal research and writing briefs, not direct client contact. I feel like I have far more clinical experience as I get ready to leave on internship than I did even a year after I was admitted to practice law. Yes, there are a ridiculous number of hoops to jump through to become a clinical psychologist. 😡 Then again, the bar exam was pretty rough and every state has different laws. At least psychology is the same in every jurisdiction (except for ethics).

2) I don't think standardized tests will ever be eliminated, despite the drawbacks you've cited. Why? Because it's the one universal indicator of knowledge that allows states to evaluate everyone's preparedness equally. Programs in clinical psychology vary in what and how they teach their grad students. The EPPP may be a lousy benchmark, but it is an equalizer which allows licensiing boards to compare apples and oranges.🙄

 

[REBT Dude]

1) The training/education model for lawyers and psychologists are distinctly different. Law school is only 3 yrs and law students don't do the intensive practica and supervision that we do in psychology. When I got out of law school the sum total of my practical experience consisted of two summers of clerking -- first at a state agency and then at a law firm. Most of that training was in doing legal research and writing briefs, not direct client contact. I feel like I have far more clinical experience as I get ready to leave on internship than I did even a year after I was admitted to practice law. Yes, there are a ridiculous number of hoops to jump through to become a clinical psychologist. 😡 Then again, the bar exam was pretty rough and every state has different laws. At least psychology is the same in every jurisdiction (except for ethics).

I can't remember if it was a Law & Order episode or a John Grisham novel/movie, but there was some nugget about how law school doesn't prepare you to be a lawyer. Go watch real trials if you want to learn.

(As an aside, on my last visit to jury duty, I was stunned during voir dire and the opening statements at just how utterly unimpressive were the oratorial skills of the attorneys. During my turn, one attorney peppered me about my background as a HS science teacher and would I be attempting to "teach" the other jurors. After the case was settled and we were free to speak to the attorneys, I went back to him and asked why he totally skipped over the part of my questionnaire where I revealed I was a PhD student in clinical/forensic psychology and was, at the time, at a practicum at the federal prison in Manhattan collaborating on fitness to stand trial evaluations!

2) I don't think standardized tests will ever be eliminated, despite the drawbacks you've cited. Why? Because it's the one universal indicator of knowledge that allows states to evaluate everyone's preparedness equally. Programs in clinical psychology vary in what and how they teach their grad students. The EPPP may be a lousy benchmark, but it is an equalizer which allows licensiing boards to compare apples and oranges.
🙄

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-testing. I am anti-BAD testing.
When I was getting my teaching certificate, I was eager when I took my first assessment class. As I'm sure most of us have encountered during high school, too often the exams we took bore little resemblance to what was being covered in class or was important to the discipline. So, I was enthusiastic to learn how to properly create exams.

After the instructor implored us to never make students endure irrelevant materials, she then went on to say the entire class would focus on portfolio assessment. When I told her that my school absolutely forbade such assessments, she said "Well, pretend you're in a utopian society." "Uh, excuse me," I countered, "didn't you just tell us we shouldn't burden students with irrelevant materials." She nearly burst into tears, blubbering, "I can't handle all this negativity." (I would have loved to see her handle 15 minutes with an average selection of my students!)

I think it is telling that immediately following the recent Supreme Court decision regarding the New Haven firefighter promotion exam (Ricci v. DeStefano), the Society for Industrial Organizational Psychologists (SIOP, APA Division 14) released a statement saying, in essense, "Uh, folks, you do realize we are experts in this and do this sort of thing for a living? You might have wanted to check with us before employing an assessment of dubious value!"

 

[psychmama]

lol...it's true that the EPPP could use a good deal of improvement. It could be a better measure of readiness for practice, but I guess that would mean spending money to actually look at the constructs it purportedly measures, then evaluating how predictive these are for successful practice. In my state (NJ) applicants are required to also complete oral examination where they must write up a treatment case and then present it before a panel. I've heard this is a real pain in the butt, but at least it seems more relevant in assessing competence.

Of course if we were to do away with the EPPP, what would the ASPPB do with itself?😀

 

[LM02]

My father is a CPA. He's almost 70. And yes, he still has nightmares about the CPA exam. In fact, the CPA exam is actually a series of several exams that you have to take over a couple of years.

Yes, it sucks, but licensure is a hoop that professionals have to jump through all the time. Nursing, social work, medicine, law, CPA, etc. I actually think we have it pretty darn good.

And for what it's worth, I had to wait 2 months for my EPPP score, and I survived. I also have never heard of anyone being immediately terminated from a postdoc for failing. Does this really happen, or is this urban legend? I knew someone who was already in a tenure-track faculty position who failed the EPPP, and it had bearing at all on her position.

Good luck!

 

[REBT Dude]

I actually think we have it pretty darn good.

Really? Please tell me how.
I know there are plenty of licensed professions out there with varying levels of complexity of evaluations.
What many other professions have are nationalized standards. But in psychology, every jurisdiction have their own -- often contradictory rules -- so that what goes on in Illinois bears no resemblance of what's happening in Maine.

And for what it's worth, I had to wait 2 months for my EPPP score, and I survived.

And I also know people who didn't wear their seat belt, were ejected from a collision, and live. What's your point?

No one said having to wait for the score was fatal -- just unnecessary and often traumatic.

I also have never heard of anyone being immediately terminated from a postdoc for failing. Does this really happen, or is this urban legend? I knew someone who was already in a tenure-track faculty position who failed the EPPP, and it had bearing at all on her position.

And the head of my department at my internship (a state [read: exempt] employee) failed it SEVEN times and still has his job -- overseeing five LICENSED psychologists. (Please explain the logic there!)

In New York, does have a progressive limited permit for post-doc/pre-licensed psychologists. However, if you complete your hours before passing the EPPP, the permit expires on the spot.

 

[psyed4clinPhD]

Wow-I thought just getting into grad school and then juggling publishing/practicums/internship/presentations would be challenging. Thanks for letting me know about the exam too; I wasn't aware of it until I read this thread.

I wish much success to everyone who is waiting for their scores!!

 

[REBT Dude]

Who says it is invalid? It's also only one part of the qualifying standard.

Actually ASPPB does ... read their Information for Candidates.
And it is the only make-or-break standard.

Sure, and those are required steps.

Which, according to the very material one must study to prepare for the exam, are MORE valid in evaluating one's suitability for success in a vocation.

So what. It's part of psychology. It's interesting. It's not hard to study for it.

So is dream interpretation. And feminist theory. And psychophysics.
It is the licensing exam for clinical psychology, not preparation for Jeopardy.

Why would anyone advocate for including "interesting" but essentially irrelevant material on a licensing exam? (The explanation on one test prep program is an apologetic "Well, some day you might be running a program ..."). Yeah, I'm sure I'll pull out my EPPP study guide 5 - 10 years from now for management tips.

If I wanted to study I/O, I would have!
(And I/O psychs don't need a license so why do the clinicians have to study their material??)

And this suggests to you what? I agree we should not have RxP, but I also think we should know which medications work for which conditions and why.

It suggests an inexplicable hypocrisy.
Absolutely we should know about medications which our patients are likely to be taken.
But we have people like you advocating against RxP but for including I/O "because its interesting" on the licensing exam.

Here's a radical idea: How 'bout we just stick with the information actually and directly relevant to the practice of clinical psychology?

Selection bias. I doubt most people that take the test are surprised they passed. But, it may be that most people that feel the need to complain about the test are surprised they passed.

Seriously John, get off this board and out in the world for a while.

I have been involved with several EPPP prep discussion boards for several months. Most all people who pass share their "passing story" and the VAST majority include some version of "I left the test having no idea how I did ... "

My position is that psychology is too easy to get into because of professional schools with crappy standards and easy undergraduate programs. Basically, we have a bunch of people that shouldn't be playing around in doctorate level education, playing around in ostensibly doctorate level education. It's. . . annoying. The test is easy. It's psych 101 material. If you can't pass it after going through a doctoral program, barring some sort of processing speed problem, I have to wonder whether you (third person you, not you specifically) should have been let through the gate in the first place.

Again, get your head off this board and out of your ... for awhile.
There are plenty of people out there sharing horror stories about this inexplicably convoluted process of dubious validity or utility. But you believe it is because they ALL are sub-standard candidates?

How about this John? If the professional schools which you hold is such contempt were smart they'd just turn themselves into EPPP prep programs virtually assuring their students would pass right out of the gate. What would that do for your support of this rite of passage?

It is Psych 101 material?? Oh really?
Upon what delusion do you base that?
I TEACH Psych 101 ... and several other undergraduate courses. That most certainly is NOT the content of this exam. Nor, apparently, is what is covered in the years of graduate schooling and training.

Why else would it be asserted as essentially necessary that you buy a commercial test prep program if you want ANY chance of passing?

The conventional wisdom out there is to IGNORE the study guides and focus on the practice exams for the simple reason this is not a content exam but an exercise in brinksmanship. Its all about gaming the test.
I realize you'll probably dismiss that perspective by claiming its an easy game.

Some of us though would rather focus our time and efforts on preparing
for an exam that actually bears a resemblance to the profession we are seeking to practice.

It's not about me. I have my own problems. They just don't happen to be related to these issues.

I saved this for last because you really did lay it bare here.

You really don't give a cr-p about how others see things if they conflict with your narrow vision of things. I agree with you on one point -- you do indeed have your own problems. Doesn't matter how many others express concern about something, unless it passes the "Snow-test" it has to be fallacious or fabricated.

For the love of empathy, why are you in this helping profession?

 

[psychwhy]

I've taken time away from this forum for the reasons you are just discovering!

One thing I don't understand is why, on Student DOCTOR Network, the majority of participants on the psychologist board are not PhD/PsyDs but grad students or even undergrads contemplating a career in psych.

I'm not saying people interested in psychology shouldn't have a place to explore, but there is a pre-doctoral forum available too.

If you go to the other professions' boards here you'll see mostly questions about the PRACTICE of the profession.

I concur wholeheartedly with you that there is scant evidence of how the EPPP has any relevance to the practice of the profession.

In addition, why can you go to Barnes & Noble and buy a study guide for practically any other professions' licensing exam? But psychology requires you buy from one of three companies where the bare-bones study package starts at $500? And if you go for the "full monty" package, you're looking at spending closer to $5,000! That's including the study seminars which are held in only 4 or 5 major cities (requiring most of us to include travel and lodging).

And let's not forget the $506 to register for the exam and another $65 to take the exam.

'cuz let's remember how lucratively compensated most post-docs are!

Oh, and word to the wise ... pretend this is a warm "Snow-less" climate.
If you get sucked into his Arctic logic, you will be stuck shoveling -eh- "snow" endlessly.

 

[LM02]

Really? Please tell me how.
I know there are plenty of licensed professions out there with varying levels of complexity of evaluations.
What many other professions have are nationalized standards. But in psychology, every jurisdiction have their own -- often contradictory rules -- so that what goes on in Illinois bears no resemblance of what's happening in Maine.

I'm certainly no expert, but isn't the law profession run the same way? Yes, there are federal laws - but plenty of state laws that are completely different across the states (ahem, just look at the same-sex marriage debates that are going on right now). And lawyers have to take the STATE bar exam. There is some reciprocity across states, but I have plenty of friends who have had to sit for multiple bar exams. Meanwhile, if we move, we just call ASPPB and they send our score along... yes, I may have to take a jurisprudence exam for that state (but not always), but I'd rather take that than a bar exam! Really, I would.


In any case, I guess the point of my post was to provide just one alternative perspective on the whole EPPP thing. There are plenty of people on this board who are just trying to get into grad school, and I found your post to be a bit alarmist. Yes, it's stressful. And yes, it was annoying. And yes, it was expensive. But it's part of the gig. And people do get licensed. So for those of you freaking out right now, don't sweat it. When it comes time to take the EPPP, you'll have your own rant, and you'll make it through (eventually). 🙄

 

[cara susanna]

Psychwhy, forgive my lack of being able to detect tone on the internet: are you being sarcastic about the forum allowing grad students and undergrad students to post?

 

[socialcog]

To help people competently. . . you know, patients. It worries me that we are dumbing down our helping profession because I think it's important that we maintain high standards and that we attract the best and brightest students so that the field moves forward and we are able to advance our understanding of mental illness, brain and behavior relationships, treatment, and assessment. All of these things serve the mission of our profession. Allowing professional schools to reign supreme, in my opinion, damages the primary mission of our profession.

I am not here to help whoever wants to be a psychologist, no matter how stupid they are, attain their goal. I am here to approach our subject matter and train new professionals with as much skill as we can muster. That, to me, serves the greater good.

You sound very much like Morris Berman (not an insult) in his notorious elitist tone (again, not an insult--especially if you'd read Berman--only an observation).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

One thing I don't understand is why, on Student DOCTOR Network, the majority of participants on the psychologist board are not PhD/PsyDs but grad students or even undergrads contemplating a career in psych.

I'm not saying people interested in psychology shouldn't have a place to explore, but there is a pre-doctoral forum available too.

If you go to the other professions' boards here you'll see mostly questions about the PRACTICE of the profession.

There are over 140,000+ threads between Pre-Allo / Pre-Osteo, which far out-number any speciality practice area. This is still the STUDENT Doctor Network, so that seems to make sense. The history of SDN actually involves the joining of a few different boards/areas way back when, with Pre-Allo / Pre-Osteo being the most popular. The other specialty forums branched out for people more advanced in training.

 

[psychmama]

I'm certainly no expert, but isn't the law profession run the same way? Yes, there are federal laws - but plenty of state laws that are completely different across the states (ahem, just look at the same-sex marriage debates that are going on right now). And lawyers have to take the STATE bar exam. There is some reciprocity across states, but I have plenty of friends who have had to sit for multiple bar exams. Meanwhile, if we move, we just call ASPPB and they send our score along... yes, I may have to take a jurisprudence exam for that state (but not always), but I'd rather take that than a bar exam! Really, I would.

🙄

This is true. Been there, done that.

 

[deleted176373]

I need to get some popcorn, this is just starting to get good.

Mark

 

[psychwhy]

Cara:

Psychwhy, forgive my lack of being able to detect tone on the internet: are you being sarcastic about the forum allowing grad students and undergrad students to post?

No sarcasm intended, honest question seeking clarification. Pre-application/grad school/internship/post-doc/ECP are very different facets of the journey each having unique challenges and hurdles.

As I said in my original post, I firmly believe we all should have be able to benefit from the camaraderie/collegiality of others similarly situated. Still, there is a pre-doctoral sub-forum in psych. By my unofficial count well over 75% of the posters on the doctoral forum (including, no offense T4C, the moderator!) do not yet have their degree. I'm just saying that the issues that a post-doc deals with deserve as much attention as how many LORs to have or who placed where for internship.

T4C:

There are over 140,000+ threads between Pre-Allo / Pre-Osteo, which far out-number any specialty practice area. This is still the STUDENT Doctor Network, so that seems to make sense. The history of SDN actually involves the joining of a few different boards/areas way back when, with Pre-Allo / Pre-Osteo being the most popular. The other specialty forums branched out for people more advanced in training.

Thanks for the stats, T4C, but do not forget that it is the Student DOCTOR Network.

Again, I support 100% the availability of resources and support for pre-application/graduate students/practica students. I'm just saying that does seem to be a lack of dedicated resources for those of us who have actually earned our doctorates and are finishing our clinical training/beginning our practices. Just look at REBT Dude's EPPP thread, there appear to be few people on the list who have actual experience with a benchmark experience in the quest for licensure. (And some early-in-training folks who -- frighteningly -- didn't seem to know there IS an EPPP!)

But just look at the main screen current threads -- "Should I retake the GREs?", "Which counseling programs are better?" -- these are perfectly legitimate issues worthy of discussion but are WAY before "doctor" concerns. It would be nice to be able to consult with colleagues who are at the end of their educational journey as well as share experiences with people who are at the beginning of theirs.

And, last but not least, Jon ...
Yes, to be fair, your original post was mostly (uncharacteristically?) benign. But then you get to the end and it seemed you couldn't finish a post without a dose of your trademark snarkyness --

I don't really see the exam as all that arduous of a hurdle.

The OP was obviously expressing concerns/distress.
Do you make a practice of building rapport with a phobia patient by saying "Ahh, snakes are nothing to be afraid of"?

Then, when the OP tried to provide an expanded explanation and support in defense of (I'm assuming) his position, and you responded with yet another "Snow-storm" of "that's wasn't my experience so obviously there is something wrong with your perception."

For crying out loud, you actually did say that people who seek out study programs are "sub-standard" candidates. I don't know what sort of MENSA graduate school you went to, but I have NEVER heard anyone say you can prep for the EPPP with a couple of days of reviewing an intro psych text.

Markp:
Still got the popcorn out?

 

[deleted176373]

T4C:


Thanks for the stats, T4C, but do not forget that it is the Student DOCTOR Network.

Again, I support 100% the availability of resources and support for pre-application/graduate students/practica students. I'm just saying that does seem to be a lack of dedicated resources for those of us who have actually earned our doctorates and are finishing our clinical training/beginning our practices. Just look at REBT Dude's EPPP thread, there appear to be few people on the list who have actual experience with a benchmark experience in the quest for licensure. (And some early-in-training folks who -- frighteningly -- didn't seem to know there IS an EPPP!)

But just look at the main screen current threads -- "Should I retake the GREs?", "Which counseling programs are better?" -- these are perfectly legitimate issues worthy of discussion but are WAY before "doctor" concerns. It would be nice to be able to consult with colleagues who are at the end of their educational journey as well as share experiences with people who are at the beginning of theirs.

Markp:
Still got the popcorn out?

Yes, still got the popcorn going... So what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that there should be a Clinical Psychology Post-Doc Section.

The Clinical Psychology Psy.D/Ph.D section of the board has been (as long as I have been around) aimed primarily at helping those pursuing their Doctoral degree. You've noted this bias yourself. So why not get the moderators to add a Post-Doc forum just as their are post-doctoral forums for all the other specialties.

Personally, I consider myself a Ph.D. Candidate (and August 15th or so my school will officially recognize me as one as well.) I am in a Ph.D. program and my goal in going to graduate school was to get my Ph.D., this is the place to discuss issues and challenges with obtaining one's Ph.D. The other psychology forum here is specifically for "for discussion of undergraduate and masters degree issues." We aren't having issues with that, we are exploring the process of getting our Ph.D.'s or Psy.D.'s and this is the most appropriate forum for that unless the structure of the forum changes.

I think it's time to add a forum to support those who have finished their training at the doctoral level. That's my 2 cents on the matter.

Mark

 

[psychwhy]

So what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that there should be a Clinical Psychology Post-Doc Section.

Yes.

The Clinical Psychology Psy.D/Ph.D section of the board has been (as long as I have been around) aimed primarily at helping those pursuing their Doctoral degree. You've noted this bias yourself. So why not get the moderators to add a Post-Doc forum just as their are post-doctoral forums for all the other specialties.

It was after I joined that the BA/MA board was started. My impression was that it was intended in the same context as the "pre-allo" boards over in the medical forums.

The medical forums also contain specialty specific residency boards. Now, I don't know that psych could sustain specialty forums, but these would seem analogous to having a venue for psych post-docs.

Personally, I consider myself a Ph.D. Candidate (and August 15th or so my school will officially recognize me as one as well.) I am in a Ph.D. program and my goal in going to graduate school was to get my Ph.D., this is the place to discuss issues and challenges with obtaining one's Ph.D. The other psychology forum here is specifically for "for discussion of undergraduate and masters degree issues." We aren't having issues with that, we are exploring the process of getting our Ph.D.'s or Psy.D.'s and this is the most appropriate forum for that unless the structure of the forum changes.

I have no dispute with that perception, Mark.
But I would hope you would agree that inherent differences exist between discussing issues about obtaining your PhD/PsyD and those that arise after earning your degree.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[psychwhy]

Jon,

Eddie Murphy did a bit years ago about how you could get out of practically any jam by just repeating: "Wasn't me."

Your girlfriend is shouting: "But I caught you in bed with another woman!"
"Wasn't me"
"I saw you with my own eyes!"
"Wasn't me"
"Well ... maybe it wasn't you."

You seem to have taken that strategy to heart

In several previous posts, I invested (wasted) precious time assiduously cataloging the inconsistencies in your published statements. Your standard retort is to skip over what is being said and when confronted with your own words respond: "Didn't say that."

Anyone who take more than a minute to review your previous posts (which REBT dude did mention he did), it doesn't take a microscope or an advanced degree to sense the dismissive tone, the holier-than-thou mentality, and (as someone recently tried to declare as non-insulting) an air of elitism. What is conspicuously absent is any reference to YOUR educational/professional background or qualifications, just that they apparently are of higher quality than practically everyone else on this forum.

Frankly, I am done wasting time sparring with you on this forum (c.f. "teaching a pig to sing") but I would love to have just a day to be a fly-on-the-wall during an average day of yours out in the world.

 

[REBT Dude]

First, my apologies. Honestly, I had forgotten about having signed on to this board. Current events led me to seek what I hoped for was some commiseration and cameraderie.

I had no idea the firefest that would ensue.

But in re-reading things I wanted to respond to:

... I found your post to be a bit alarmist. Yes, it's stressful. And yes, it was annoying. And yes, it was expensive. But it's part of the gig. And people do get licensed. So for those of you freaking out right now, don't sweat it. When it comes time to take the EPPP, you'll have your own rant, and you'll make it through (eventually). 🙄

Sorry that you found my experience with the EPPP "alarmist."
Do a search of "EPPP study groups" and see how many you find. Take a moment and review a few. The general tone is most certainly not "hey no biggie".

Despite what the Snowman suggests, there are scores of post-docs out there spending MONTHS of in-depth study for this one exam. (There was even one person who chastized someone who failed becasue s/he had not spent a year in preparation for the exam.) Those of you focusing on how to choose the best grad program today will, in five years or so, find yourselves in a similar debate with no good answer -- "Which EPPP test prep program is best?"

"Don't sweat it?" Again, I find that a rather peculiar therapeutic technique in stress reduction when facing a singular event which can have long-lasting ramifications on your professional standing.

Help me understand -- how are you all anticipating affording $550+ for the exam, $500 - $5,000 for the test prep, not to mention months of studying? (Perhaps Jon Snow will help you out by loaning you his Psych 101 text and letting you crash at his place for the couple of days of review he believes is all that is necessary.)

Oh, and let's not forget that some states will not even let you sit for the exam until you have FINISHED your post-doc in its entirety. This means you must submit your supervisory paperwork, wait for the licensing board to sign off on your post-doc (some boards only meet once a month!), certify you ready for the exam, then communicate this to you and PES/ASPPB. After this process which could take weeks (even months), THEN you have to try to find the closest Prometric test center and they recommend you schedule your attempt as close to the maximum SIXTY DAYS after being certified to allow adequate prep time.

So, in these jurisdictions you aren't a post-doc anymore, but you are pre-license with 2 - 4 months to go before sitting for the EPPP. Then you still have between one to five weeks to wait before getting your score back -- again depending on your locations and there is NO information provided about when scores are reported just that you may have to wait "several weeks." Don't know about you all, but 4 - 6 months to apply/take/receive your scores seems a bit extreme ... especially when you consider that the exam is 100% computerized. Even if it still took a few weeks to receive official word from your licensing board about your scaled score, why you cannot leave the test center with your raw score is inexplicable.

Much like psychwhy tried to say, I have no issue with the fact that there IS a test or that there should be some form of qualifier. (Oh Jon, about the make-or-break part -- what in graduate school or supervised training is one-time pass/fail? Even at comps and dissertation defense most of us were give some leeway to boost a less than spectacular answer.)

After years of SUCCESSFUL schooling and supervised practice, is it really too much to expect that the licensing exam focus on what we actually do professionally and not be shrouded in secrecy leading to the anxiety resulting in people spending so much time and money preparing for what should be a straightforward demonstration of ability?

Finally, due respect to our legal cousins and the Bar exam, but we are supposed to be the profession who knows how to craft a valid assessment. Should we really be comparing ourselves to other professions who do know share our extensive training in assessment?

 

[KTpsych]

"Don't sweat it?" Again, I find that a rather peculiar therapeutic technique in stress reduction when facing a singular event which can have long-lasting ramifications on your professional standing.

Without jumping into this fire directly, can I call for a moratorium on people using (often hastily written) posts as evidence of therapeutic quality? I'm really sick of people deciding that that Jon Snow must be incapable of demonstrating empathy because of how he posts. This isn't a therapy session, and we should all know that therapy isn't just about having a nice person listen to you. It's about having a competent professional use their acquired skills to work towards particular goals. Someone might be a hilarious joke cracker in person, but a serious professional when engaging in a patient. Someone might get overwhelmed and anxious about their own daily life, but be able to offer a calming and rational perspective to a patient. If you dislike someone's tone, there are better ways to engage that topic than questioning someone's professional competence.

Addition: It's also worth pointing out that authors on this post are certainly not the first people to do so. My annoyance with this tendency has been building, and I finally felt like saying something.

 

[LM02]

Without jumping into this fire directly, can I call for a moratorium on people using (often hastily written) posts as evidence of therapeutic quality? I'm really sick of people deciding that that Jon Snow must be incapable of demonstrating empathy because of how he posts. This isn't a therapy session, and we should all know that therapy isn't just about having a nice person listen to you. It's about having a competent professional use their acquired skills to work towards particular goals. Someone might be a hilarious joke cracker in person, but a serious professional when engaging in a patient. Someone might get overwhelmed and anxious about their own daily life, but be able to offer a calming and rational perspective to a patient. If you dislike someone's tone, there are better ways to engage that topic than questioning someone's professional competence.

Addition: It's also worth pointing out that authors on this post are certainly not the first people to do so. My annoyance with this tendency has been building, and I finally felt like saying something.

Thank you. I was unaware that I was engaging in a professional relationship or employing any particular therapeutic stance with my "don't sweat it" advice - which, by the way, was not geared to the original poster but rather to all the people you are freaking out.

I stand by what I said. Your complaint about test validity can be said for any professional licensing exam. At least ASPPB is up front about this limitation, most likely because we are aware of test development methodology. It's a limitation, yes, but it's what we've got. Going back to therapeutics, this might be a good time for some radical acceptance.

As for the cost, I anticipated the test and saved accordingly. My friend and I split an inexpensive, used set of preparation materials, and I knew what the test and prometric costs were in advance. I've been licensed for 3 years now, and I really don't ever give the EPPP a second thought (until now, that is).

In any case, I've shared my .02, and am now bowing out...

ETA: For a self-proclaimed "REBT Dude," I'm surprised your skin isn't a bit thicker.

 

[aagman01]

I'm getting a headache reading all of these posts!

I just want to thank those more advanced of me (i.e people applying for internships, dissertators, people in internship, and l.p. s) for sharing all of their wonderful, experience-based knowledge.

Likewise, I am happy to respond to those considering entering our field and sharing the (limited) knowledge I have with them.

Are not these the purposes of this entire forum - to help advance understanding for individuals entering the profession, and thereby help strengthen our field as a whole? Why all the anger? Lets all try to relax a little bit 🙂

Thank you. I was unaware that I was engaging in a professional relationship or employing any particular therapeutic stance with my "don't sweat it" advice - which, by the way, was not geared to the original poster but rather to all the people you are freaking out.

I stand by what I said. Your complaint about test validity can be said for any professional licensing exam. At least ASPPB is up front about this limitation, most likely because we are aware of test development methodology. It's a limitation, yes, but it's what we've got. Going back to therapeutics, this might be a good time for some radical acceptance.

As for the cost, I anticipated the test and saved accordingly. My friend and I split an inexpensive, used set of preparation materials, and I knew what the test and prometric costs were in advance. I've been licensed for 3 years now, and I really don't ever give the EPPP a second thought (until now, that is).

In any case, I've shared my .02, and am now bowing out...

ETA: For a self-proclaimed "REBT Dude," I'm surprised your skin isn't a bit thicker.

 

[REBT Dude]

Thank you. I was unaware that I was engaging in a professional relationship or employing any particular therapeutic stance with my "don't sweat it" advice - which, by the way, was not geared to the original poster but rather to all the people you are freaking out.

You are aware that we are judged by what we say and how we say it, right? Your comment came across as dismissive and glib. For one involved in a helping profession predicated on communication skills, one would hope you would be aware of that.

I stand by what I said. Your complaint about test validity can be said for any professional licensing exam. At least ASPPB is up front about this limitation, most likely because we are aware of test development methodology. It's a limitation, yes, but it's what we've got. Going back to therapeutics, this might be a good time for some radical acceptance.

This is a logical fallacy of the nth degree. "The beatings will continue until morale improves?"
We are supposed to be the expert profession of test construction. But because other professions' exams are flawed, we should just accept it as fait accompli? I'm sorry, why did we all spend half our lives in graduate school if we were going to hold ourselves to the same standards as everyone else?

As for the cost, I anticipated the test and saved accordingly. My friend and I split an inexpensive, used set of preparation materials, and I knew what the test and prometric costs were in advance.

Kudos for you, really. But many of your colleagues are living hand-to-mouth and simply do not have the financial wherewithal to save up the various costs. (Do we need to review how much less we are paid during our clinical training than most other professionals?)

...and I really don't ever give the EPPP a second thought (until now, that is).

Which is the core problem.
The exam is of questionable utility and dubious validity.
But let's just subscribe to the mentality of "pay your dues" (again -- as if there aren't enough hurdles placed in our way already) and then ignore the faults because they no longer apply to you -- just everyone who follows you.
Whatever happened to be agents of change?

ETA: For a self-proclaimed "REBT Dude," I'm surprised your skin isn't a bit thicker.

You apparently haven't studied REBT very thoroughly ... I'm not taking any of this personally, but challenging YOU to stop repeating the party line and actually challenge your irrational beliefs!

KT Psych: Can I call for a moratorium on people using (often hastily written) posts as evidence of therapeutic quality? I'm really sick of people deciding that that Jon Snow must be incapable of demonstrating empathy because of how he posts. This isn't a therapy session ...

No it is not a therapy session but certainly you are aware that we are judged by what we say and how we say it. And if you are not employing communication skills which are likely to encourage therapeutic rapport here, do you really think we are able to dissociate our professional and therapeutic communication skills? SDN colleagues aren't worth some professional courtesy and camaraderie?

I didn't come here looking for a pissing match ... but to have both personal and community experiences summarily dismissed by someone like Jon Snow is disturbing. And, if you do review his comments beyond this one thread, he has been called out for being dismissive, elitist, and arrogant in many of his postings on this forum. Frankly, he seems to embody the sort of arrogance normally associated with surgeons than psychologists.

 

[psychwhy]

Eddie Murphy Raw is a classic. But, be that as it may, words matter and I didn't say what you asserted.

Which is precisely the point Jon. You may incessantly criticize and dismiss the quality of my psychology training, but I did learn to READ in elementary school. You can keep denying you said things ... but anyone who can use the search feature can read them posted here.

My background is fairly average for clinical psychology and I've covered it several times before, I think even in response to one your distorted rants. A brief summary.

PhD - clinical science program/neuropsych/neuroscience reference
internship - div 40 academic medical center
clinical postdoc - appcn site/academic medical center
currently - assistant professor academic medical center

Actually Jon, in my 2+ years of being subscribed to the forum, this is the first time I recall seeing your sharply redacted CV. But if you are indeed APPCN trained, that explains a lot as it is pretty clearly aligned with the medical model which would explain your physician-style arrogance.

Right, the folks having difficulty are loud.

Do you an Rush Limbaugh share the same "fact"-checker? Many people on these discussions do pass on the first time (as they share in their "passing stories"). That doesn't eliminate the extreme anxiety and worry they endure as part of the process. (Or their criticism of the nature of the exam).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone in this thread say that a supervisor took the exam 7 times? How is that one-time pass/fail.

Another Snow-prooftext ... this example was that because this individual was employed by a state facility he was never actually REQUIRED to pass the exam (or have a license) to keep his job. However, we are not all so "lucky" to be employed under such pathetically lame standards. Many of us will lose limited permits/employment if the exam is failed -- despite never having any question of clinical competency raised by supervisors who actually have observed our work.

Someone might be a hilarious joke cracker in person, but a serious professional when engaging in a patient. Someone might get overwhelmed and anxious about their own daily life, but be able to offer a calming and rational perspective to a patient. If you dislike someone's tone, there are better ways to engage that topic than questioning someone's professional competence.

KT, this might be a valid comparison if we were all at a cocktail party or even posting on an "off-topic" SDN forum.

Unfortunately, Snow-storm style posts as responses to colleagues seeking support and compassion are all too indicative of a pervasive lack of respect evident in the profession of psychology. (I will not repeat my previous posts here.) But I came here a couple of years ago seeking a supportive community of colleagues who might be interested in improving the status and prestige of our profession. Instead, I encountered snarky, snippy, dismissive, elitist drivel ... which has been revived right here.

Why all the anger?

I'd suggest you review my previous posts (and Jon Snow's too). As I've said here, I came here hoping for exactly what you were -- collegial sharing. Instead, I was "treated" to reams of people telling me because my experiences differed from theirs, it must have been due to some sort of character flaw on my part because their professional journeys have all be utterly smooth sailing!

Finally, REBT dude, as someone who also has extensively read Ellis ...
Refutation of irrational beliefs are unlikely to be accepted here.
There is much too much invested in (self-)confirmation biases.

Best of luck ... I'm out (again)

 

[cara susanna]

Do you an Rush Limbaugh share the same "fact"-checker?

Did you really have to bring politics into this? x_x

 

[KTpsych]

No it is not a therapy session but certainly you are aware that we are judged by what we say and how we say it. And if you are not employing communication skills which are likely to encourage therapeutic rapport here, do you really think we are able to dissociate our professional and therapeutic communication skills? SDN colleagues aren't worth some professional courtesy and camaraderie?

I didn't come here looking for a pissing match ... but to have both personal and community experiences summarily dismissed by someone like Jon Snow is disturbing. And, if you do review his comments beyond this one thread, he has been called out for being dismissive, elitist, and arrogant in many of his postings on this forum. Frankly, he seems to embody the sort of arrogance normally associated with surgeons than psychologists.

To be honest, I don't think you have been the best example of professional courtesy in this thread. Your remarks got quite personal, and they seemed rather unwarranted to me. Jon's original comment was neutral, offered suggestions to your complaints (cheap ways to find testing materials), and offered you luck on your exam score. Your response called into question his entire contribution to this board. You've also told him to get off the board, responded in what appeared to be a sarcastic and hostile manner to others' responses, and have generally been dismissive of others' experiences while demanding we honor your own.

It seems more that you came on to rant about a process you disliked, rather than open a discussion. You complain about people dismissing your experiences, but you don't seem particularly interested in anyone who has an opposing view. Which is a shame, because I think there are some interesting points to discuss (How should we determine if the test is a good test? What should be the scope of our knowledge? Should it be offered at a different point at our training?) I think this could have been a really interesting discussion about something that has been less-covered on these boards (as opposed to the endless discussion of what GRE scores are good enough--which become dramatically less interesting the second you get into graduate school 😀).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*MOD NOTE: This has gotten far off track from the topic. Please refrain from making things personal, as that is not the purpose of the topic nor the forum.*

As for the topic at hand.....the EPPP is part of the process, and while some people fail, the majority pass. It is a concern, much like being able to get licensed, but if you go about your training and do what you need to do....passing the EPPP shouldn't be that big of a hurdle.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes, but my second post wasn't . . . the psych 101 comment. In any case, I agree, this could be an interesting discussion. What would make the test truly better?

Taking an exam does not really encapsulate the training, but cutting it out doesn't make sense. I am in favor of making an oral exam required by every state, and have it be something substantial. Many states treat it as a formality, and others don't even require it.

 

[deleted176373]

Given many of our colleagues (who are having difficulties with the exam) also seem to think 100K+ of debt is ok, I don't see the problem.

What irrational beliefs?

See, we knew you'd see the light and stop being such an "elitist" who thinks that funded Ph.D. programs might be better suited to passing the EPPP.

Let's look at the data though... what does the data suggest?

Yes, it's old data... be nice to have newer data presorted for us, but historically those who pay the most seem to get the least, at least when it comes to scores on the EPPP.

http://www.socialpsychology.org/clinrank1997.htm

This data below continues the trend though... but does take additional sorting through.

http://www.asppb.org/publications/pdf/Table%202%20Exam%20Performance%20from%201997%20through%20July%202006.pdf

John, you must stop making sense.

Before anyone starts crying about their experience at a professional school, remember you are an N of 1. This is aggregate data, and it explains, in part, why bias remains in the field against graduates of professional programs. Is there any validity in the EPPP, I don't know, I'm not an expert on it but it does seem strange that the graduates of more competitive and better funded programs on average seem to have a better record over a vast period of time.

Mark

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hmm. I'm in favor of a national standard. The reciprocity issues with various states can be a nuissance.

I think oral exams and reviews of case reports, letters of rec, and the like are good tools. This is why I advocate for board certifications. . . ABPP approved board certifications.

I agree, the exam doesn't really encapsulate training, but we have other protections for that.

Real boards....and not the vanity boards that seem to be popping up. There are some in the profession that college vanity boards that essentially don't mean anything, instead of working towards legitimate ones. Our medical colleagues have it write to have a more established boarding system, which is something we need to develop, instead of having all of these niche boards pop up.

 

[nononora]

There is a lot of division in the field, a lot of different opinions on what's good enough, what's "elite," "arrogant," or "ivory tower," and what's practical.

OT:

This is one of the problems I have with a field such as ours - I understand the desire to want to help people but many seem to have a problem with these terms. I don't see anything wrong in expecting people in helping professions to be elite. Although everyone is entitled to an education, not everyone should be entitled to a professional degree that allows you to practice. Just as online MD/JD programs are frowned upon, so should online PhDs/PsyDs in Clinical Psych. The fact of the matter is that not everyone has the ability or the correct circumstances to consider this career path, and making it available to everyone while disregarding academic ability is troubling.

I'd strongly prefer elite people treating me although some seem to think differently.

 

[Minnesotan4PsyD]

I think some people are confusing the word "elite" with "elitist". Why wouldn't we want elite?

 

[Ollie123]

OT:

This is one of the problems I have with a field such as ours - I understand the desire to want to help people but many seem to have a problem with these terms. I don't see anything wrong in expecting people in helping professions to be elite. Although everyone is entitled to an education, not everyone should be entitled to a professional degree that allows you to practice. Just as online MD/JD programs are frowned upon, so should online PhDs/PsyDs in Clinical Psych. The fact of the matter is that not everyone has the ability or the correct circumstances to consider this career path, and making it available to everyone while disregarding academic ability is troubling.

I'd strongly prefer elite people treating me although some seem to think differently.

👍👍

This. I can't stand that attitude. If someone can't hack it, or life circumstances don't allow for "elite" training, there are plenty of ways to "help" that do not require a doctorate. I'm sick to death of everything in this country being dumbed down in the name of "fairness" and it happens across the board in education. Its no surprise our educational system is in shambles.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

👍👍

This. I can't stand that attitude. If someone can't hack it, or life circumstances don't allow for "elite" training, there are plenty of ways to "help" that do not require a doctorate. I'm sick to death of everything in this country being dumbed down in the name of "fairness" and it happens across the board in education. Its no surprise our educational system is in shambles.

Agreed.

It isn't meant for everyone to be able to do it. I am sure some good candidates are unable to attend because of circumstances, but the standards should not be lowered to accommodate them, because there are other people who get in who shouldn't.

Much of what we do requires sacrifice. It isn't like we give up our first born, but it shouldn't be easy. There is FAR too much to learn already going full-time (before internship, post-doc, etc), so any diminishing of standards will only detract from learning.

 

[socialcog]

👍👍

This. I can't stand that attitude. If someone can't hack it, or life circumstances don't allow for "elite" training, there are plenty of ways to "help" that do not require a doctorate. I'm sick to death of everything in this country being dumbed down in the name of "fairness" and it happens across the board in education. Its no surprise our educational system is in shambles.

Was the poster you're responding to in support dumbing down our educational system? I didn't get that but whatever.

I agree with you and T4C in that I think a healthy dose of uncompromising and idealistic elitism may be what our educational system needs to correct itself, freeing itself from the capitalism in this culture. I know that neither of you used the term 'elitism' but we are talking about the same overarching theme.

However, elaborating on this topic here will likely derail the topic of this thread (EPPP related stuff), so I will stop now.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

*MOD NOTE: I split out the last handful of posts into a new thread for discussion: HERE *

I'd like to get this discussion back to the EPPP.

 

[Ollie123]

Was the poster you're responding to in support dumbing down our educational system? I didn't get that but whatever.

I agree with you and T4C in that I think a healthy dose of uncompromising and idealistic elitism may be what our educational system needs to correct itself, freeing itself from the capitalism in this culture. I know that neither of you used the term 'elitism' but we are talking about the same overarching theme.

However, elaborating on this topic here will likely derail the topic of this thread (EPPP related stuff), so I will stop now.

Not to further derail but since this post stayed just want to clarify - I was giving the person I responded to the thumbs up and agreeing with them.

 

[REBT Dude]

Just wanted to sign off by saying I hope you all are lucky enough to continue in what seem to be life journeys on forever calm seas.

Check back at the end of this educational marathon, when you experience the illogic of this exam and then try to find out if you passed so you can actually start your professional life. But then again, as became painfully obvious in the tone/content of many of the posts, most of you are/were able to get all of your education finshed early in your lives, so having to endure waiting to know if you passed the exam so you can keep/start a job isn't likely to involve fearing the loss of support for a family, losing your housing/car/credit rating, etc.

For the record, after taking the exam on the 2nd, it took until the 20th for the status on my registration to change from "open" to "scored." A call to my state licensing board was just as enlightening as they would only confirm receipt of my score -- they would not tell me even if I passed. (Check -- the rules about score reporting are different in EVERY state!)

I should have gotten a letter, I was told. (Guess what, no letter yet ... )

And remember, it's called empathy people!

 

[REBT Dude]

I don't think anyone goes through life that way.

Jon, seriously, I would agree with you ... if so often in this discussion there weren't repeated "no big deal", "it isn't fatal", "don't sweat it" or (right back atcha) "those having problems are the loudest" sorts of comments.

Just a touch of empathy?
"Hey that must be rough"?
"Sorry that happened?"
Seriously, I do find it implausible that the majority of people on this board never faced any sort of professional frustration/adversity -- but, from many of their comments, it certainly seems as if it were that way.

(And for the record, I do recognize that your initial response to me was mostly courteous, but then you had to include that snarky ending and ... the flame-fest began!)

How's this for irony? A basic tenet of REBT, straight from Ellis himself, is that so long as you aren't dead, you can persevere. During one training seminar, my therapy "cient" shared a heart-breaking story about potentially being deported due to circumstances beyond her control. In that moment, I found "Well, so long as you're not dead ... ", even if factually valid, a rather harsh therapeutic tactic.

I admit, passing had no bearing on these things for me.

And this is the part of this forum that drives me around the bend.
I'm happy things went well for you, really.

But I looked over various forums where people who came here seeking some solace or commiseration are were greeted with dismissive tone and attitude or -- more reprehensibly -- some version of blame the victim, because their experience differed from someone else's on the list (not too put too sharp a point on it -- but often the person making such comments was you.)

How does that work, exactly? It may be useful information for those coming out. Are you waiting to start a private practice? I've looked at clinical jobs before and they tend to say license eligible. Does this mean you need to have passed the test first?

Well, herein lies the rub ... it depends upon your location
The definition of "license eligible" usually means you have earned your doctorate and are in the process of applying for licensure.

Now, in some states, you aren't even permitted to sit for the exam until you have completed your post-doc. Given the various things that need to be done, it can take a few weeks to a few months before you are actually taking the exam ... and then "several weeks" to receive the scores (taken directly from the ASPPB "you've taken the EPPP" certifcate given by Prometric.) So, in that state, once your post-doc is over -- you might get an employer to keep you on while you jump through the test registration hoops ... but if you do not pass ... you aren't licensed and few employers are going to keep you on for several more months to prepare for Take 2.

In other states, they have made things "better" by issuing a psychology limited permit. In NY at least, the language is very clear however, that the permit is for the purpose of accruing supervised practice only. Now, obviously we could make a case for blaming the victim if the candidate didn't take the exam early in the post-doc which would allow for a potential re-take while still collecting supervised hours. (There is that small factor of $565 - >$5,000 test/test prep cost on a post-doc's meager salary.) But in this context, if you have finished your hours and fail the exam, NY is very clear -- your permit is voided as soon as they are notified of the failing grade.

Yes, there are real consequences in many situations.

I suppose I was lucky. When I took the exam, an administrator sent me a personal email telling me I passed in advance of the letter.

Yes, you were lucky.
This was part of the frustration I was trying to communicate from the EPPP discussion board -- EVERY state does it differently.

Is that really necessary?

Seriously, to call your licensing board and be told in essence, "yes we know, but we aren't telling you." WTF?

PS - There still wasn't a letter in my mailbox today nor was my score posted on the ASPPB registration site, now Exam day plus 19 days.

 

[REBT Dude]

ME: But if you do not pass ... you aren't licensed and few employers are going to keep you on for several more months to prepare for Take 2.

Jon: So, basically, in that situation there are very real consequences for failure.

Yes, which has been my point. Though I assert it isn't a rare situation, save for the (increasingly rare) exempt state hospital job -- a setting in which not every psychologist wants to work.

Again, I understand --and agree -- there should be standards/benchmarks which must be met.
But after 5+ years of graduate school, year+ of practicum, year of internship, year of post-doc (during which one is observed/supervised and confirmed to have the requisite skills), to then have it all come down to one exam -- especially one that (debatably) does not accurately reflect the knowledge base of professional practice?

People talk incessantly about the pressure of the athlete in the "big game". But even if the game is lost, (as far as I know) the athlete isn't fired and ending up on Food Stamps.

ME: (There is that small factor of $565 - >$5,000 test/test prep cost on a post-doc's meager salary.)

Jon: Compared to other professional licenses, the fee for the test is rather small. As for the test prep, as I stated, there are ways around that.

Truth be told, I availed myself of those low-cost alternates. Of course, now we can debate whether using older materials lessens one's chance of success.

As for the costs of other professions, I'd be curious to hear what others pay, but I'm not sure that its relevant. Do other professions have internships that pay (on average) in the $9 - 12/hour range, followed by a fellowship giving in the $15 - 19/hour range?

And in those other professions, is there an inexplicable labyrinth of agencies through which scores apparently are lost leaving the candidate to twist in the wind waiting for scores? (Remember, the state knows but won't tell me.)

 

[Cosmo75]

I saw this thread after being gone for a week and thought "oh good an EPPP thread" since I'm preparing to take the exam next spring. And then saw that it just turned into another argument. I love how the professional school debate got sprinkled in there as usual 🙄

To the OP: I'm not at the point of anxiety yet but am sure I'll have some stress over taking the exam. I've been advised from many professors/mentors to just spend a few weeks studying, to take one of those classes if I can, and just take the damn thing. Months and months of prep seems to be excessive. I'm also not thrilled about the associated costs. I've heard you can get some old materials on eBay or Craigslist for a reasonable discount (not that that helps you at this point). I'm hoping to shave some of the price off, since as someone pointed out in between the flame war that post-doc salaries are so lucrative 😀

I'm also annoyed by the stories of excessive amounts of I/O and social psych theory on the test. But hey what can you do? I suspect that once I get to test-day and the subsequent wait after to find out if I passed that I too will feel anxious. It's not because I'm not competent or feel insecure about my abilities. But I think that this is a pretty natural part of the process. Just like there are stressed out posts about the GRE, application process, internship process, etc. So I'm with ya.

 

[psychwhy]

To the OP: I'm not at the point of anxiety yet but am sure I'll have some stress over taking the exam. I've been advised from many professors/mentors to just spend a few weeks studying, to take one of those classes if I can, and just take the damn thing. Months and months of prep seems to be excessive. I'm also not thrilled about the associated costs. I've heard you can get some old materials on eBay or Craigslist for a reasonable discount (not that that helps you at this point). I'm hoping to shave some of the price off, since as someone pointed out in between the flame war that post-doc salaries are so lucrative 😀

I'm also annoyed by the stories of excessive amounts of I/O and social psych theory on the test. But hey what can you do? I suspect that once I get to test-day and the subsequent wait after to find out if I passed that I too will feel anxious. It's not because I'm not competent or feel insecure about my abilities. But I think that this is a pretty natural part of the process. Just like there are stressed out posts about the GRE, application process, internship process, etc. So I'm with ya.

I, too, am just left shaking my head how this forum seems to revel in rehashing perpetual arguments -- especially the "suck it up, junior -- we all had hurdles, so stop your whining" style comments.

The advice I received is similar to yours. What I heard most often is to focus on the practice exams for two reasons: 1) They quickly provide concrete information about your weak areas; and 2) As most people identify the wording of the questions as the greatest obstacle, getting as much exposure to that style of assessment is invaluable.

And Jon, as always, thanks for your expressions of compassion and support for the up-and-comers. (And, could it be a Snowpost without yet another insinuation that those from Tier I, APA-accredited everything training paths don't endure such ordeals.)

I think the OP's "big game" comparison was more focused on the reality that even the third string benchwarmer in the major leagues makes 10x what a post-doc does. (For the sake of argument, we'll ignore the starters making 100-1,000x more than even your Tier I PhD post-doc.) Yes, there may be a cut-throat side to sports. But we are the ones who supposedly did the "smart" thing and didn't base our personal worth on a precarious physical skills set. We utilzed our ostensibly rare level of intelligence and cogntive skills to earn an advanced education to arrive at our professional "big leagues." To then have it all come down to a 4.5 hour, 225 question exam --of dubious validity -- while ignoring the actual demonstration of skills during practicum, internship, and post-doc does seem to stretch rationality.

 

[psychmama]

C'mom guys, enough already!🙄

Jon, I am curious about your pessimism for the future of professional psychology. Do you think it could related to how long you've been out working? The reason I ask is that I recall feeling a similar sense of disenchantment with law after practicing for several years. I imagine the problems are different with respect to the two professions. Here's how I see it:

Law: pretty great money, especially when one considers that you're in and out of law school in 3 yrs and starting salaries rock (at least if you went to a good LS and ranked high in your class). However, I found the practice of law rather soul-robbing and quite a grind. Believe me, reviewing faxes from Guam at 4am or spending an entire weekend writing a brief is no fun at all.Then there's all the arguing, bickering, posturing....definitely not my thing but a necessary evil as a lawyer.🙁 Also, if you think there's competition in psychology it's a picnic compared to law. Do you know how many lawyers there are in the US?

Psychology: given how long it takes to get out and licensed, the financial payoff is modest at best. Managed care and scope creep leave us wondering why we bothered with a PhD at all. On the plus side, I find psychology endlessly fascinating and personally rewarding in a way I never experienced as a lawyer. Helping someone live their lives better is really special, and something I don't take for granted. Also, while you may not be rich as a psychologist, you do get to see your kids on nights and weekends.🙂

Bottom line for me -- psychology may not be perfect, but I don't think there's a perfect career out there. I'm hoping I've made tradeoffs that I can live with.

 

[Cosmo75]

^

If making a pile of cash was my primary motivator for going into a job, I'd have stuck with IT. I know what I'd like to make to be comfortable, and that includes making my student loan payments (which aren't that horrific actually). The enjoyment of the work is so much more important to me. I also like the versatility that psych offers (research, teaching, clinical work, etc.).