As a DO student applying to IM, should I take USMLE Step 2?

[Inquiringmind24]

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So here's the deal. I'm a 3rd year DO student and I decided that I want to apply to allopathic IM programs with plans to pursue a fellowship (not sure in what yet). Along with COMLEX, I took USLME Step 1 and scored a 230. Being that my step 1 score wasn't too bad, would it be worth my while to take USMLE Step 2 when applying to allopathic IM programs? Or should I just plan on calling program directors and asking them? Any advice would be appreciated since I'm not thrilled about spending another $500 on another exam. Thanks.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Don't bother... that's more than good enough.

Good luck.

jd

 

[Old_Mil]

So here's the deal. I'm a 3rd year DO student and I decided that I want to apply to allopathic IM programs with plans to pursue a fellowship (not sure in what yet). Along with COMLEX, I took USLME Step 1 and scored a 230. Being that my step 1 score wasn't too bad, would it be worth my while to take USMLE Step 2 when applying to allopathic IM programs? Or should I just plan on calling program directors and asking them? Any advice would be appreciated since I'm not thrilled about spending another $500 on another exam. Thanks.

Take it. Never know what rabbit the AOA is going to pull out of its hat, so I think it's a good idea to have a complete set of MD licensing exams on the resume, MD board specialization, and AMA membership.

 

[bth7]

Take it. Never know what rabbit the AOA is going to pull out of its hat, so I think it's a good idea to have a complete set of MD licensing exams on the resume, MD board specialization, and AMA membership.

Agree with this analysis. Just take it. You'll obviously do fine, if not outstanding.

bth

 

[Charlie Bravo]

Really? Someone please enlighten me as to what the point would be. If he already has a good step one, whats the point of USMLE step 2??

From what I've heard, he should be good for an IM residency.

 

[DrWBD]

Take it. Never know what rabbit the AOA is going to pull out of its hat, so I think it's a good idea to have a complete set of MD licensing exams on the resume, MD board specialization, and AMA membership.

I disagree. Taking Step 2 might be a good idea for the long term (i.e. fellowship applications) but for purposes of getting an IM residency, a Step 1 score of 230 is probably fine, depending on which programs you're applying for. The best thing to do is to find out what the mean Step 1 score of the programs you're interested in are and base your decision on that. Keep in mind that a poor Step 2 score can adversely affect your application if it's reported to the programs you're applying to before the rank list is submitted. Although, your Step 1 score is good so likely your Step 2 would be fine also as long as you aren't slacking on reading during your rotations 😀

As for AMA membership, considering that only about 25% of US MD physicians are members, it's kind of a stretch to say that this would have any bearing on your future as a physician. Consider further that the AMA, which years ago was trying very hard to eradicate osteopathic medicine, is now trying to make nice to DOs simply to bolster their revenue and membership. There are other more worthwhile organizations in medicine to join besides the AMA.

 

[Old_Mil]

I disagree. Taking Step 2 might be a good idea for the long term (i.e. fellowship applications) but for purposes of getting an IM residency,

I'm looking beyond just getting the residency, in terms of eligibility for Step III, licensure, and a career. If he's got a 230 on Step I, the odds of his doing poorly enough on Step II to compromise his shot at the IM residency of his choice are quite low.

 

[DrWBD]

I'm looking beyond just getting the residency, in terms of eligibility for Step III, licensure, and a career. If he's got a 230 on Step I, the odds of his doing poorly enough on Step II to compromise his shot at the IM residency of his choice are quite low.

To clarify, I'm not saying he shouldn't take Step II.

I'm saying that for purposes of obtaining a residency it isn't essential, IMO, to have Step II scores on file when submitting the residency application, unless a program specifically tells you otherwise.

Justifying taking Step II early using the argument that he'll probably do as well or better than Step 1 is dumb. Probably yes, he'll do OK on the Step II exam. But why would you take the chance? Smart MD students with good Step I scores use this strategy all the time - put off Step II until it can't hurt your residency application. Other than to reinforce the negative stereotypes about DOs not being as intelligent as MDs, I'm not sure what the point is to potentially jeopardize a strong application.

As for licensure and a career, USMLE scores are not required in any state in America, something for which you can thank your osteopathic predecessors.

 

[CorpusERdoc]

So here's the deal. I'm a 3rd year DO student and I decided that I want to apply to allopathic IM programs with plans to pursue a fellowship (not sure in what yet). Along with COMLEX, I took USLME Step 1 and scored a 230. Being that my step 1 score wasn't too bad, would it be worth my while to take USMLE Step 2 when applying to allopathic IM programs? Or should I just plan on calling program directors and asking them? Any advice would be appreciated since I'm not thrilled about spending another $500 on another exam. Thanks.

Because your Step I score was so high, I would hold off on taking the exam.

I took Step II myself because my Step I score was a bit lower.

Good luck.

 

[Old_Mil]

As for licensure and a career, USMLE scores are not required in any state in America, something for which you can thank your osteopathic predecessors.

They're not required...but if your goal is to rid yourself of the AOA, osteopathic CME, and never take the Comlex III they certainly do help.

 

[DrWBD]

They're not required...but if your goal is to rid yourself of the AOA, osteopathic CME, and never take the Comlex III they certainly do help.

The USMLEs certainly are NOT needed to "help" you get rid of any of those things, except the COMLEX Level 3, in some cases only (see below).

There are two reasons for a DO to take the USMLE:
1. to establish equivalence of qualifications compared to a competing MD residency candidate, especially when the program director of residency of interest may not look favorably on COMLEX scores.
2. self-validation

By the way, not taking COMLEX Level 3 can lead to a tremendous licensing headache unless you happen to be in a state that allows osteopaths to practice with USMLE scores only. There are a few DO's on SDN that have gone this route, but my personal observation is that USMLE Step III is a waste of time and money for a DO to take. Just do COMLEX Level 1,2,3 and USMLE Step I and Step II at most, as anything beyond that is purely for licensure purposes and not academic.

 

[Jason_AZCOM]

IMO,there is no reason you would need "full set" of USMLE boards if you are going into IM, or any other field for that matter.

It is the completion of an ACGME accredited residency or dually accredited residency (plus of course graduation from medical school) that makes you board "eligible" in a field. Not whether you took the COMLEX or USMLE. So as long as you go to such a residency, then you could be certified by the allopathic IM board.

If there are any IM residencies that require USMLE, they almost certainly only need Step 1.

The only official use of the Step/Part 1-3 is for licensing. Since you are a DO, you will be licensed by the osteopathic board in your state... they will require COMLEX (?possible very rare exception they would take USMLE III, as above).

http://www.abim.org/certification/policies/imss/im.aspx

Fellowships are largely based on you who you know, what program you are at, you letters of recommendation, recommendation of your program director, inservice training exams, etc.

Also, any DO is welcome to join the AMA, so USMLE is of no use there. Beyond that, both AOA and AMA membership is optional.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/12051.html

The only real use of USMLE Step 2 is if you did poorly on a past exam and want another (hopefully higher) score to submit with you application.

 

[Old_Mil]

The only official use of the Step/Part 1-3 is for licensing. Since you are a DO, you will be licensed by the osteopathic board in your state... they will require COMLEX (?possible very rare exception they would take USMLE III, as above).

In at least 33 of the 50 states (likely more now, I've heard as high as 42 of 50), your licensure application as a DO goes to either an MD board, or a MD-DO board. Separate osteopathic boards are relatively rare.

So yes, I"d consider valid reasons to take the USMLE to be three:

(1) To rid yourself of Comlex III
(2) To maximize your competitiveness for ACGME residencies
(3) If you want the individual satisfication of having proven yourself against a better exam than COMLEX.

 

[USArmyDoc]

In at least 33 of the 50 states (likely more now, I've heard as high as 42 of 50), your licensure application as a DO goes to either an MD board, or a MD-DO board. Separate osteopathic boards are relatively rare.

So yes, I"d consider valid reasons to take the USMLE to be three:

(1) To rid yourself of Comlex III
(2) To maximize your competitiveness for ACGME residencies
(3) If you want the individual satisfication of having proven yourself against a better exam than COMLEX.

Old_Mil,

Why are you so negative about osteopathic medicine? Its very disappointing. I always see you on these boards trashing it. I know quite a few MD's and DO's and each of them took their respective licensing exams. None of them are running into any "carreer issues" as I believe you said.

I am taking the USMLE and COMLEX, but I do it not "rid" myself of anything. The biggest obstacle to a DO student is the DO student....So many people on these boards are the ones who cause the problem. I don't want an MD....I like my school and the education I am getting. I am sorry that you are so disenchanted, but theres no reason you need to degrade the profession b/c there are plenty of physcians who have made a big difference in a patients life regardless of MD/DO.

 

[Old_Mil]

Old_Mil,

Why are you so negative about osteopathic medicine?

Because there are only 24 hours in a day. I want to be the best physician I can be. Every minute I'm forced to spend memorizing arcane tenderpoints, or Nintendo Wii style manuvers to influence cranial bone motion by the acolytes at the AOA makes me a worse physician, not a better one.

I had more than enough of that during the didactic years of medical school - the last thing I want to do is deal with it during Step III at the end of my intern year or on specialty boards after that.

I'm glad you've found a path that suits you. The one that suits me is getting rid of OMM.

 

[Jason_AZCOM]

Since you are a DO, you will be licensed by the osteopathic board in your state... they will require COMLEX (?possible very rare exception they would take USMLE III, as above).

Inquiringmind24 is from Arizona... a state that does have an osteopathic board which requires COMLEX for licensing.

http://www.azdo.gov/

 

[MaximusD]

Because there are only 24 hours in a day. I want to be the best physician I can be. Every minute I'm forced to spend memorizing arcane tenderpoints, or Nintendo Wii style manuvers to influence cranial bone motion by the acolytes at the AOA makes me a worse physician, not a better one.

I had more than enough of that during the didactic years of medical school - the last thing I want to do is deal with it during Step III at the end of my intern year or on specialty boards after that.

I'm glad you've found a path that suits you. The one that suits me is getting rid of OMM.

Doesn't explain why you have to be so outspoken about your distaste. After a while, it just seems like you're bitching to hear yourself bitch. 👎

Frankly, I don't want to hear it. I don't like some stuff about OMM but I have only briefly voiced my concerns on this forum. YOU chose osteopathic medicine... not the other way around.

 

[bth7]

YOU chose osteopathic medicine... not the other way around.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the choice was mutual. I'm sure his school had thousands of applicants to choose from, and they chose him, including his distaste for OMM.

He's not exactly in the minority here. The majority of D.O.s either don't use OMM, or use it very rarely.

I understand that as an OMS I, you may feel passionate about OMM and the "osteopathic difference." That's great. But try to appreciate that as time goes on, many of us (who may have once felt exactly as you do) begin to feel that the "osteopathic difference" is a distinction that we no longer find meaningful. We come to understand all the osteopathic differences that the AOA doesn't advertise or talk about to those applying to medical school. Or worse, differences that some within the AOA actually work hard to obfuscate and obscure.

We'd rather emphasize our ability to be great physicians, over our ability to be "osteopathic" physicians. We'd rather walk in the footsteps of Pasteur, Jenner, and Olser, over the likes of Still and Sutherland. We're tired of having to defend this "heresy" to the certain elements within the AOA, who treat physicians like traitors or pariahs simply because they challenge certain assumptions about the profession.

Just trying to give my take on people's frustrations.

bth

 

[USArmyDoc]

Because there are only 24 hours in a day. I want to be the best physician I can be. Every minute I'm forced to spend memorizing arcane tenderpoints, or Nintendo Wii style manuvers to influence cranial bone motion by the acolytes at the AOA makes me a worse physician, not a better one.

I had more than enough of that during the didactic years of medical school - the last thing I want to do is deal with it during Step III at the end of my intern year or on specialty boards after that.

I'm glad you've found a path that suits you. The one that suits me is getting rid of OMM.

Oh, I do hear you on OMM. It is frustrating and sometimes seems to be a little out there. I wish they made it more interesting and fun to learn b/c if you can use it the right way it works well.

 

[DrWBD]

We'd rather emphasize our ability to be great physicians, over our ability to be "osteopathic" physicians. We'd rather walk in the footsteps of Pasteur, Jenner, and Olser, over the likes of Still and Sutherland. We're tired of having to defend this "heresy" to the certain elements within the AOA, who treat physicians like traitors or pariahs simply because they challenge certain assumptions about the profession.

bth

The most intelligent statement I've read on this board for some time. 😎 👍