As an Intern,Resident,how did you learn to be assertive with hospital staff?

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dank204

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I'm still an undergrad student but I have been in and out of hospitals for the last six years of my life. I even worked in a hospital for seven years. During that time I noticed that if you are an Intern or a Resident and you let the hospital staff walk over you, they will walk over you. For example, I worked in Radiology and I used to notice how the residents who didn't speak English well or were soft-spoken and not aggressive were not given as much respect as others who were more assertive. I saw the same thing in the ER. I was surprised to see the nurses treat the soft-spoken resident's with absolutely no respect.

How did you learn, as a resident, to get people to cooperate? --To get respect.

Thanks
 
I'm still an undergrad student but I have been in and out of hospitals for the last six years of my life. I even worked in a hospital for seven years. During that time I noticed that if you are an Intern or a Resident and you let the hospital staff walk over you, they will walk over you. For example, I worked in Radiology and I used to notice how the residents who didn't speak English well or were soft-spoken and not aggressive were not given as much respect as others who were more assertive. I saw the same thing in the ER. I was surprised to see the nurses treat the soft-spoken resident's with absolutely no respect.

How did you learn, as a resident, to get people to cooperate? --To get respect.

Thanks

In life, you'll get this everywhere. You just have to deal with it until it's all over. If you're at the bottom of the totem pole, voicing yourself could harm you, as they'd do whatever in their power to keep you at the bottom. If you are higher in title than the one disrespecting you, then that's on you. There's no way in hell that I'd let some nurse talk to me poorly if I am a doctor (resident, attending, intern..). There's just NO WAY! I don't want to be discouraging, but if a person is not assertive by college-age/end of college career, it's going to be difficult making any huge changes at that point. Is assertiveness essential for being a great doctor? Probably. But not all docs are great....but they're docs!
 
Well, most of the 'so-called' uncooperative staff (I assume you refer to nurses primarily) will be more experienced than you. Many nurses that you'll encounter have worked the same ward for a dozen plus years, so yes, they have sufficient grounds to put you in your place. You are inexperienced (they've seen a **** ton more), and if your actions and attitudes don't warrant respect, then you shouldn't have it.

But remember, respect must always be mutual. That being said, there will still be staff members that will try to walk over any physician. Then, you just have to talk (and talk carefully). I have heard of stories where physicians have been black-balled by nurses for trying to force respect. They blatantly delayed orders, and they made every task impossible.

Tl;dr: People are people everywhere you go. You have to earn respect, and you have to have it for every person you interact with.
 
There's no way in hell that I'd let some nurse talk to me poorly if I am a doctor (resident, attending, intern..). There's just NO WAY! I don't want to be discouraging, but if a person is not assertive by college-age/end of college career, it's going to be difficult making any huge changes at that point. Is assertiveness essential for being a great doctor? Probably. But not all docs are great....but they're docs!

You don't think a nurse of 20 years is more valuable and aptly suited for advice than a green intern? Grabbing a degree does not make you smarter, nor better than experienced. And if you think putting doctor in front of your name gives you the right for this 'God complex', so be it. Life is going to be fun for you.

You must be a blast at parties. Right? It would be an honor for you to attend one of mine.
 
No matter what field you go into, assertiveness is vital. Even in radiology you will do a prelim year/transitional year of general medicine. During rotations where people can die based on your actions, it can sometimes be important to be very assertive to get things moving.

In an acute situation I had a nurse questioning me
Nurse: Dr. Texasphysician, what about trying this instead?
Me: Do what I ordered now.

Usually I am much more kind to my nursing staff, but you can't be teaching nurses while someone is suffering. I pulled that nurse aside afterwards and explained my reasoning/why I did what I did. No more problems.

You can not just sit in the back in all situations and hope things turn out ok. It'll come to you. Even the shy girls I knew in medical school end up being very assertive when they need to be.
 
Well, most of the 'so-called' uncooperative staff (I assume you refer to nurses primarily) will be more experienced than you. Many nurses that you'll encounter have worked the same ward for a dozen plus years, so yes, they have sufficient grounds to put you in your place. You are inexperienced (they've seen a **** ton more), and if your actions and attitudes don't warrant respect, then you shouldn't have it.

But remember, respect must always be mutual. That being said, there will still be staff members that will try to walk over any physician. Then, you just have to talk (and talk carefully). I have heard of stories where physicians have been black-balled by nurses for trying to force respect. They blatantly delayed orders, and they made every task impossible.

Tl;dr: People are people everywhere you go. You have to earn respect, and you have to have it for every person you interact with.

I know what you mean but I am talking about respect when you are doing nothing wrong. I was in the ER last month and a resident had to see me. The resident just asked the nurse "Is this the patient." and the nurses reply was "I don't know, Ask Him." To be fair, she wasn't my nurse but that just struck me. I saw the same thing in radiology where some co-workers would go out of their way to locate a film for someone who they thought could report them but they would just say "I can't find it" to someone who they didn't have much respect for or who they didn't see as a threat. The resident's are just doing their job and it used to make me mad to see stuff like that because that's where I want to be one day. I just wanted to know how you deal with situations like that. I know the nurse has more experience, but you are still the resident and you have a job to do.
 
You don't think a nurse of 20 years is more valuable and aptly suited for advice than a green intern?

No I don't. While some nurses are very intelligent people, you can't assume this of all of them. I've met quite a few nurses who don't appear like they have read up on anything in 10 years. I've found the same of some physicians. Some people keep up with their field better than others.

I know new interns who can show up on the ICU floor and run the show better than any nurse and some attendings.

I know other interns who hope to God that the nurses run the show.

Not everyone is equal.
 
That's why I used 'more aptly suited'. Advice shouldn't be ignored, and it should be considered if from a credible source. I just don't think someone should discredit another because of a position.
 
I know what you mean but I am talking about respect when you are doing nothing wrong. I was in the ER last month and a resident had to see me. The resident just asked the nurse "Is this the patient." and the nurses reply was "I don't know, Ask Him." To be fair, she wasn't my nurse but that just struck me. I saw the same thing in radiology where some co-workers would go out of their way to locate a film for someone who they thought could report them but they would just say "I can't find it" to someone who they didn't have much respect for or who they didn't see as a threat. The resident's are just doing their job and it used to make me mad to see stuff like that because that's where I want to be one day. I just wanted to know how you deal with situations like that. I know the nurse has more experience, but you are still the resident and you have a job to do.

Wow your sense of respect is really bad. You mean someone didn't drop what they were doing to go run and find something that YOU are looking for? Wow really disrespectful. You should have reported that guy.
I dont know what hospital you worked at, but nurses don't typically know about other patients that aren't theirs. They are just way to busy to bother. So the nurse didn't know who you are, big deal. That's not disrespect, it's just the way it is.
Before you even think about becoming a physician you really need to learn that you are not any better than anyone just because you are a physician. You gain respect with what you do, not the letters after your name
 
I know what you mean but I am talking about respect when you are doing nothing wrong. I was in the ER last month and a resident had to see me. The resident just asked the nurse "Is this the patient." and the nurses reply was "I don't know, Ask Him." To be fair, she wasn't my nurse but that just struck me. I saw the same thing in radiology where some co-workers would go out of their way to locate a film for someone who they thought could report them but they would just say "I can't find it" to someone who they didn't have much respect for or who they didn't see as a threat. The resident's are just doing their job and it used to make me mad to see stuff like that because that's where I want to be one day. I just wanted to know how you deal with situations like that. I know the nurse has more experience, but you are still the resident and you have a job to do.

A few things to note:

Anyone can report anyone (at least in the hospitals where I've worked). As a tech, I can write up the medical director of the ED if I observe something and it will be investigated [assuming it's a legitimate-sounding complaint]. (However... am I really going to do something like that? Of course not.)

The nurse's job is not to go find charts for the doc (or run any other little errand). In an ED, this is often something scribes and sometimes techs will do for the docs, but really not even techs are expected to do this (although we sometimes will to be nice if we have a moment).

Doing things for one another isn't really about "respecting one person more than another" so much as teamwork. We are a team. We succeed as a team or we fail as a team. To make the team work, there must be mutual respect and working together. At the same time, though, that does not mean one person can expect others to find things for him/her. No one person is more critical to the team's success than another. The docs don't have the same skillset as the RNs and the RNs often lack the skillset that their techs bring to the table (depending upon the unit). Sure, there is a hierarchy but the hospitals I've worked in generally have a "flat" model (i.e., a pseudo-"everyone is equal" model).
 
That's why I used 'more aptly suited'. Advice shouldn't be ignored, and it should be considered if from a credible source. I just don't think someone should discredit another because of a position.
Then don't assume you should take the "veteran" nurse's advice over that of the "green intern."

Well, most of the 'so-called' uncooperative staff (I assume you refer to nurses primarily) will be more experienced than you. Many nurses that you'll encounter have worked the same ward for a dozen plus years, so yes, they have sufficient grounds to put you in your place. You are inexperienced (they've seen a **** ton more), and if your actions and attitudes don't warrant respect, then you shouldn't have it.
They're more experienced in some things, but not in others. The experienced surgical floor nurses often know less about the operating room than the med students.


I have a pretty good relationship with most nurses. The key is to take their concerns seriously and to let them know what is important with a given patient. Sometimes, if you explain why the patient needs a certain treatment, you'll get a lot less resistance to implementing it. Also, I get plenty of calls at inappropriate hours of the night asking for really mundane things. If you politely say, "Thanks for pointing that out. Why don't you leave a note for the primary team on the chart so they see it in the morning?" then they stop calling for that sort of thing.
 
I'm coming from a really naive perspective on this, because my experience in hospital settings has always been in a very cooperative, friendly environment. That being said, I think one of the best ways to gain the respect of those around you is just to be friendly. If you're meeting a nurse for the first time, do you introduce yourself or just start giving orders? I would contend that taking 5 seconds to introduce yourself is going to put the other person at ease and lead to a better working relationship in the future. Same thing for disagreements, as mentioned by several other people here. Things will go better if you explain yourself, instead of saying, "I'm a doctor and this is the way it is."

Also, I expect that you'd be surprised how far a simple please and thank you go.
 
Yeah, I don't think either of those situation was really about disrespect. Especially the nurse one. She probably was telling the truth because she wasn't assigned to you so wouldn't necessarily know who your doctor was. Maybe she might if the other nurses talked about you, but I think she was just being honest.

There's always going to be someone having a bad day, someone who hates you for no reason, the attending trying to psych you out, and all the people like that. I think to get respect, the most you can do is respect others, use your common sense, and don't suck up. As far as being assertive, I think it develops naturally as you get more comfortable in your role and as you have more experience in life. For example, becoming more independent causes you to learn how to be more assertive when you have to figure something out yourself without your parents to do it for you. As you get more experience like that, you will become more assertive and confident in general.
 
you guys are talking about basic aspects of human interaction.

only on SDN.
 
They're more experienced in some things, but not in others. The experienced surgical floor nurses often know less about the operating room than the med students.
apples and oranges. I wouldn't expect a surgical floor nurse to know the OR well. I would expect the OR nurses to be much more familiar.
Also, I get plenty of calls at inappropriate hours of the night asking for really mundane things. If you politely say, "Thanks for pointing that out. Why don't you leave a note for the primary team on the chart so they see it in the morning?" then they stop calling for that sort of thing.
Yeah, leave a laundry list of stuff for the medical team in the morning. that always goes over well with the nurses and oncoming attending.
 
you guys are talking about basic aspects of human interaction.

only on SDN.


Not really, attendings get more respect than the residents. Both are doctors doing their jobs. I just wanted to know why the people at the bottom get no respect.
 
Not really, attendings get more respect than the residents. Both are doctors doing their jobs. I just wanted to know why the people at the bottom get no respect.

Simple answer: because they earn it!

Letters don't equal respect. You get respect from others when you earn it.

In my 'previous life' I was a sr manager for a large corporation. I was often younger than both my peers & my staff. Yet I had the respect of my department, not because I was the boss but because I earned it with being honest, knowledgeable, reliable and standing up for them when needed.

Thus a resident is going to get less respect because they haven't earned it yet. No experienced nurse is going to bow just because you finished medical school; show her (or him) you know your stuff and care about your patients & the staff and the respect will come.
 
Simple answer: because they earn it!

Letters don't equal respect. You get respect from others when you earn it.

In my 'previous life' I was a sr manager for a large corporation. I was often younger than both my peers & my staff. Yet I had the respect of my department, not because I was the boss but because I earned it with being honest, knowledgeable, reliable and standing up for them when needed.

Thus a resident is going to get less respect because they haven't earned it yet. No experienced nurse is going to bow just because you finished medical school; show her (or him) you know your stuff and care about your patients & the staff and the respect will come.


This is all very true. Further, many nurses have little idea how far beyond their level of trng an MD really goes. I had a young (early 30s) critical care RN express to me one time how her view of medical students changed the time a med student came in to visit his father in the hospital. This doc gave an order in front of her and the student and the student asked the doc a very specific question concerning the reason for his decision, which the doc answered. After the doc left, this RN asked him about his question and was quite impressed with his detailed explanation of the physiology behind the doc's order. She said that really made her look at physicians differently from then on. Many RNs probably have not had a physician show them his/her value to the team beyond the privilege to write scripts and a bit more knowledge about the human body. (If the majority of rank-and-file nurses understood the depth of physician training, do you think they'd really believe a 2-year masters could bring their BSN up to the equivalent of an MD?)
 
Not really, attendings get more respect than the residents. Both are doctors doing their jobs. I just wanted to know why the people at the bottom get no respect.

Well, at least for your example, this makes sense. Residents and attendings are not equivalent doctors, and that's probably part of what you're seeing. Another reason for this probably has to do with length of time spent at a hospital-the resident is there for 3-5 years, while the attending may have been there for 10, or 20, or even more. That length of time comes with a lot of respect for how familiar the doc is with the way the hospital works.

(If the majority of rank-and-file nurses understood the depth of physician training, do you think they'd really believe a 2-year masters could bring their BSN up to the equivalent of an MD?)

That was a great post, and what I have to say about it is 100% off topic, but here goes: my gut reaction reading that was that advanced practice RNs (or if not individual practitioners themselves, then the AANP) would still want equivalency. I haven't read a lot about the topic, but some of the news articles and research papers that I've seen coming out of the AANP run the gamut between disturbing and nearly criminal 😱
 
Well, at least for your example, this makes sense. Residents and attendings are not equivalent doctors, and that's probably part of what you're seeing. Another reason for this probably has to do with length of time spent at a hospital-the resident is there for 3-5 years, while the attending may have been there for 10, or 20, or even more. That length of time comes with a lot of respect for how familiar the doc is with the way the hospital works.



That was a great post, and what I have to say about it is 100% off topic, but here goes: my gut reaction reading that was that advanced practice RNs (or if not individual practitioners themselves, then the AANP) would still want equivalency. I haven't read a lot about the topic, but some of the news articles and research papers that I've seen coming out of the AANP run the gamut between disturbing and nearly criminal 😱

Part of the point of my post, though, was to emphasize that it will be a part of our "job" as new physicians to make ourselves seen as valuable. You cannot expect someone to respect you for the letters after your name until you've shown how that training directly impacts them as professional care providers -- it's just the same as how little we generally care about all the letters behind their names: e.g., "Dr.-Nurse" Jane Smith, RN, BSN, APN-C, DNP, CEN, CPEN, NREMT-P...
 
Part of the point of my post, though, was to emphasize that it will be a part of our "job" as new physicians to make ourselves seen as valuable. You cannot expect someone to respect you for the letters after your name until you've shown how that training directly impacts them as professional care providers -- it's just the same as how little we generally care about all the letters behind their names: e.g., "Dr.-Nurse" Jane Smith, RN, BSN, APN-C, DNP, CEN, CPEN, NREMT-P...

Oh yeah, I totally agree with you on that point, and I think a lot of doctors are doing similar things right now. I've seen plenty of stories that highlight the relationship between doctors and other healthcare professionals. It just all seems to go back to respect-everyone has their job to do that would be inconvenient or impossible for someone with other training, and we all have to recognize that and make that an important part of our interactions. I just had that thought pop into my head when I read what you wrote and felt like sharing it 🙂
 
You get respect from others when you earn it.
I think that as a person, someone should be given some degree of respect, as in treating someone else the way you would like to be treated at the most basic level. Treating someone like dirt just because the other person "hasn't earned respect" is poor character.
 
I'm coming from a really naive perspective on this, because my experience in hospital settings has always been in a very cooperative, friendly environment. That being said, I think one of the best ways to gain the respect of those around you is just to be friendly. If you're meeting a nurse for the first time, do you introduce yourself or just start giving orders? I would contend that taking 5 seconds to introduce yourself is going to put the other person at ease and lead to a better working relationship in the future. Same thing for disagreements, as mentioned by several other people here. Things will go better if you explain yourself, instead of saying, "I'm a doctor and this is the way it is."

Also, I expect that you'd be surprised how far a simple please and thank you go.

One of the things that I didn't realize until I started rotations was just how many different nurses you interact with on a wards rotation in an academic hospital. The medical students and residents all rotate off severvice monthly, the nurses rotate floors monthly (though on a different date), and you'll very often be covering patients on half a dozen different floors with each floor covered by dozen different nurses on each shift. On top of that you're always in a rush. The simple philosophy of knowing your nurses, being nice to them, and bribing them with food works very well in clinic, in a small private hospital, or even on a few teaching services (EM, Psych), but on wards medicine it's logistically almost impossible. All you can do is look on the board for the nurse covering your patient, find the nurse, and rush through your questions so that you can finish your notes on time. Just a thought.

Not really, attendings get more respect than the residents. Both are doctors doing their jobs. I just wanted to know why the people at the bottom get no respect

1) Because the attendings are better at their jobs. It's easier to respect someone you're impressed with, and everyone's watching while the Interns bumble through dozens of mistakes, the senior residents occasionally trip up, and the attending seems to do the same job flawlessly. There is a good reason to respect a physician's experience.

2) Because 'respect' in the sense you're using it really means deference, which is based on power structures in addition to real respect between professionals. For a scrub nurse to show respect to an Intern the nurse needs to genuinely respect the Intern, which requires the Intern to be great at his job and requires the nurse to have a good enough personality to recognize that. However the same scrub nurse will show respect for an attending surgeon regardless of what the nurse actually thinks, because even the worst, most malignant attending surgeon is a huge asset for the hospital and is therefore capable of damaging the scrub nurse's career if the nurse picks a fight.
 
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One of the things that I didn't realize until I started rotations was just how many different nurses you interact with on a wards rotation in an academic hospital. The medical students and residents all rotate off severvice monthly, the nurses rotate floors monthly (though on a different date), and you'll very often be covering patients on half a dozen different floors with each floor covered by dozen different nurses on each shift. On top of that you're always in a rush. The simple philosophy of knowing your nurses, being nice to them, and bribing them with food works very well in clinic, in a small private hospital, or even on a few teaching services (EM, Psych), but on wards medicine it's logistically almost impossible. All you can do is look on the board for the nurse covering your patient, find the nurse, and rush through your questions so that you can finish your notes on time. Just a thought.

That's a really good point. I guess I should just amend my statement to read, "Know and be nice to the people you work with to the extent that it is possible."
 
I'm still an undergrad student but I have been in and out of hospitals for the last six years of my life. I even worked in a hospital for seven years. During that time I noticed that if you are an Intern or a Resident and you let the hospital staff walk over you, they will walk over you. For example, I worked in Radiology and I used to notice how the residents who didn't speak English well or were soft-spoken and not aggressive were not given as much respect as others who were more assertive. I saw the same thing in the ER. I was surprised to see the nurses treat the soft-spoken resident's with absolutely no respect.

How did you learn, as a resident, to get people to cooperate? --To get respect.

Thanks

As an intern, you are going to get woken up at 3 am by a nurse who wants to know if it's okay to give a patient orange juice even though their chart says "nothing by mouth". Then at 3:15 am you will get a call from pharmacy saying do you think the admitting attending really meant to continue patient's viagra while patient is in the hospital? Then at 4 am you will get called by a nurse who says a patient is having abdominal pain. You get there and the patient says they passed gas (but not in those words) and now feel fine. Then at 4:15 that first nurse calls you and says, she knows what you said before, but how about if she dilutes the orange juice in water? Then at 5 am you will start getting the calls about patients who are awake and want their morphine doses early. And so on. After about a week of this, even the meekest person will be downright ornery and ready to bite the head off people for looking at him/her funny, let alone asking for things. So I wouldn't worry about not being aggressive. The training builds that into you, by putting you into a combat situation with your beeper. The trick is not to go to the other extreme, and get written up by the staff, like apumic suggests. You find a balance. You learn how to pull the reigns without flipping the wagon.
 
I think this is the wrong question to ask. It's not about being assertive per se - it's about becoming an effective leader of the healthcare team. If your aim is just to learn how to boss people around, you'll have a hard time getting much respect from anyone. Assertive-ness is sometime, not always, required. You may have to take command in some situations, but that's not a reason to be a jerk to the staff the rest of the time.
 
Yeah, leave a laundry list of stuff for the medical team in the morning. that always goes over well with the nurses and oncoming attending.
I'm not "leaving" anything. Cross-coverage at night is meant to deal with pressing issues that can't/shouldn't wait until morning. You can call me because a patient is having pain/abnormal vital signs, but if you call with a question that can wait, it will wait. Don't leave a laundry list of non-urgent things to do at the end of the day, or it will be waiting for you in the morning.

The other residents come on in the morning, not some random attending.

As an intern, you are going to get woken up at 3 am by a nurse who wants to know if it's okay to give a patient orange juice even though their chart says "nothing by mouth". Then at 3:15 am you will get a call from pharmacy saying do you think the admitting attending really meant to continue patient's viagra while patient is in the hospital? Then at 4 am you will get called by a nurse who says a patient is having abdominal pain. You get there and the patient says they passed gas (but not in those words) and now feel fine. Then at 4:15 that first nurse calls you and says, she knows what you said before, but how about if she dilutes the orange juice in water? Then at 5 am you will start getting the calls about patients who are awake and want their morphine doses early. And so on. After about a week of this, even the meekest person will be downright ornery and ready to bite the head off people for looking at him/her funny, let alone asking for things. So I wouldn't worry about not being aggressive. The training builds that into you, by putting you into a combat situation with your beeper. The trick is not to go to the other extreme, and get written up by the staff, like apumic suggests. You find a balance. You learn how to pull the reigns without flipping the wagon.
Exactly. Or "The patient came on to my shift with the NG tube to suction. Did you want it to suction or to gravity? I can't find it anywhere in the orders." It came to you on suction, why would you think to change it without an order? And since they came up from the ICU earlier today, do you think the transfer orders maybe specified what to do with the NG? [the orders were clear]
 
In an acute situation I had a nurse questioning me
Nurse: Dr. Texasphysician, what about trying this instead?
Me: Do what I ordered now.

And if the nurse questions the order because they believe it to be unsafe? I am surely not going to administer anything I feel may be unsafe if I do not have an explanation. But I was told "Do what I ordered" is certainly not going to be a stellar defense in a courtroom. Orders can certainly be misunderstood or miscommunicated. If there is a question of safety "Because I said so" just isn't going to fly. If this was an emergent situation and the nurse felt treatment B may be more beneficial, a simple, "I would like to do treatment A" would suffice and save you from looking like a complete jerk as you made yourself out to be. The nurse isn't there to be your servant.

Respect has to be earned, not given by virtue of accepting your residency position. I'm in a cardiac SICU (Ecmo, VAD, baloonpump, heart trans, lung trans, artificial heart as well as the normal valve repair and CABG) and every intern I have seen is timid. Rightly so. I'm not afraid of the timid intern. I'm afraid of the over confident intern 2 months into his training. However this paradigm shifts as the young physician advances past intern year. Residents that rotate through and demonstrate skill and ability to work as a member of the team are held in high regard. Residents who are still timid at this point are definitely going to be looked down on and not respected.

You gain respect through understanding your own skill set, limitations and the subsequent demonstration these skills to the staff.
 
I'm not "leaving" anything. Cross-coverage at night is meant to deal with pressing issues that can't/shouldn't wait until morning. You can call me because a patient is having pain/abnormal vital signs, but if you call with a question that can wait, it will wait. Don't leave a laundry list of non-urgent things to do at the end of the day, or it will be waiting for you in the morning.
:laugh:. Good one.
The other residents come on in the morning, not some random attending.
No, its not some random attending. And yes, they do notice.
Exactly. Or "The patient came on to my shift with the NG tube to suction. Did you want it to suction or to gravity? I can't find it anywhere in the orders." It came to you on suction, why would you think to change it without an order? And since they came up from the ICU earlier today, do you think the transfer orders maybe specified what to do with the NG? [the orders were clear]
Cool story, bra, but orders are generally not clarified very well. So yeah, by law, I'm supposed to call you and get such clairified (no matter the time). If Im doing a 24 hour chart check at 2am and I cannot read your chicken scratch writing about NG's to gravity or suction, you are most definitley getting a call. Give me attitide and I will probably turn you in to the supervisor. 🙂


Its your job. do it.
 
You don't think a nurse of 20 years is more valuable and aptly suited for advice than a green intern? Grabbing a degree does not make you smarter, nor better than experienced. And if you think putting doctor in front of your name gives you the right for this 'God complex', so be it. Life is going to be fun for you.
It's sad how little respect some people around here have for doctors. It's completely laughable that you think a nurse, with any amount of experience, is more knowledgeable than a doctor. I was with an experienced nurse in the ER once who got very excited that he remembered from nursing school that a lot of abscesses are caused by Staph aureus. Let's try having experienced nurses take over doctors' jobs and see how you and the other egalitarians like it.
 
It's sad how little respect some people around here have for doctors. It's completely laughable that you think a nurse, with any amount of experience, is more knowledgeable than a doctor. I was with an experienced nurse in the ER once who got very excited that he remembered from nursing school that a lot of abscesses are caused by Staph aureus. Let's try having experienced nurses take over doctors' jobs and see how you and the other egalitarians like it.

This has not been my experience. Sure, docs generally have more knowledge but a seasoned nurse probably beats a green intern any day of the week when it comes to clinical decisions on the unit s/he has worked on for the past 20 years. After 20 years working with, say, pts in the CCU, that RN is likely to have developed some keen intuition allowing him/her to assess pts quickly and effectively in ways the intern has yet to understand (much less develop). Now over time, of course, the intern will grow and develop to be far more knowledgeable than the seasoned nurse but merely possessing an "MD" does not make you more knowledgeable than a seasoned RN -- at least not from a practical perspective. (As for science background, the newly-minted MD obviously has a pretty good leg up on that one.)
 
This has not been my experience. Sure, docs generally have more knowledge but a seasoned nurse probably beats a green intern any day of the week when it comes to clinical decisions on the unit s/he has worked on for the past 20 years. After 20 years working with, say, pts in the CCU, that RN is likely to have developed some keen intuition allowing him/her to assess pts quickly and effectively in ways the intern has yet to understand (much less develop). Now over time, of course, the intern will grow and develop to be far more knowledgeable than the seasoned nurse but merely possessing an "MD" does not make you more knowledgeable than a seasoned RN -- at least not from a practical perspective. (As for science background, the newly-minted MD obviously has a pretty good leg up on that one.)

Your getting hung up on one type of knowledge. Nurses are very very useful for certain types of data. As a medstud I still struggle to tease out sick vs toxic just by glancing at a patient sometimes, I often err on thinking people are sicker than they are as I work on honing that clinical judgement. A experienced ICU or ED nurse's opinion on something like this is priceless for a medstud or a doc. They see the patient all throughout the day and can alert us to significant changes whereas we may see a patient for 5 minutes on rounds in the am. A lot of times however even I do know more about the more academic aspects of medicine. We had a nurse in the ICU suggest that we should give a beta blocker to lower a patients heart-rate who was in septic shock, which would have greatly exacerbated the problem not fixed it. She saw an abnormal vital statistic and wanted to fix it without truly understanding the mechanism of the patients disease. Nurses are valuable but their knowledge depth is significantly different than even a green intern in many circumstances.

I agree with lawtodoc that the hardest thing isn't learning to be assertive, its learning to be calm in the face of a lot of BS. When you are extremely sleep deprived and are faced with numerous infuriatingly pointless pages or a member of the healthcare team with a bad attitude it can be extremely difficult not to go too far. Striking a balance between having a spine and making enemies is more of the challenge.
 
I think this is the wrong question to ask. It's not about being assertive per se - it's about becoming an effective leader of the healthcare team. If your aim is just to learn how to boss people around, you'll have a hard time getting much respect from anyone. Assertive-ness is sometime, not always, required. You may have to take command in some situations, but that's not a reason to be a jerk to the staff the rest of the time.

You're thinking too hard on this one man.





It's sad how little respect some people around here have for doctors. It's completely laughable that you think a nurse, with any amount of experience, is more knowledgeable than a doctor. I was with an experienced nurse in the ER once who got very excited that he remembered from nursing school that a lot of abscesses are caused by Staph aureus. Let's try having experienced nurses take over doctors' jobs and see how you and the other egalitarians like it.


My point exactly. All I was saying is that I noticed nurses giving some residents a hard time. I don't know if it's because they thought they were below them or that they (the nurses) were more knowledgeable. I know interns and residents are at the bottom of the totem pole but they are doing their job and I just wanted to know how you get other staff members to cooperate.

Some people are really thinking this one out.
 
:laugh:. Good one.

No, its not some random attending. And yes, they do notice.

Cool story, bra, but orders are generally not clarified very well. So yeah, by law, I'm supposed to call you and get such clairified (no matter the time). If Im doing a 24 hour chart check at 2am and I cannot read your chicken scratch writing about NG's to gravity or suction, you are most definitley getting a call. Give me attitide and I will probably turn you in to the supervisor. 🙂


Its your job. do it.

You seem like you work well with others.
 
:laugh:. Good one.

No, its not some random attending. And yes, they do notice.

Cool story, bra, but orders are generally not clarified very well. So yeah, by law, I'm supposed to call you and get such clairified (no matter the time). If Im doing a 24 hour chart check at 2am and I cannot read your chicken scratch writing about NG's to gravity or suction, you are most definitley getting a call. Give me attitide and I will probably turn you in to the supervisor. 🙂


Its your job. do it.
Your complaint will be duly noted. If you were doing your job, my extremely legible handwriting made it quite clear what you were supposed to do. You again have completely missed the point of cross coverage. You're also wrong that the attending give a damn, unless it's actually about something that affects the patient's health, in which case such calls are appropriate.
 
That's a really good point. I guess I should just amend my statement to read, "Know and be nice to the people you work with to the extent that it is possible."

I completely agree, but I'm generally one of those people that tries to be nice to everyone they meet, at least at first.

Your getting hung up on one type of knowledge. Nurses are very very useful for certain types of data. As a medstud I still struggle to tease out sick vs toxic just by glancing at a patient sometimes, I often err on thinking people are sicker than they are as I work on honing that clinical judgement. A experienced ICU or ED nurse's opinion on something like this is priceless for a medstud or a doc. They see the patient all throughout the day and can alert us to significant changes whereas we may see a patient for 5 minutes on rounds in the am. A lot of times however even I do know more about the more academic aspects of medicine. We had a nurse in the ICU suggest that we should give a beta blocker to lower a patients heart-rate who was in septic shock, which would have greatly exacerbated the problem not fixed it. She saw an abnormal vital statistic and wanted to fix it without truly understanding the mechanism of the patients disease. Nurses are valuable but their knowledge depth is significantly different than even a green intern in many circumstances.

I agree with lawtodoc that the hardest thing isn't learning to be assertive, its learning to be calm in the face of a lot of BS. When you are extremely sleep deprived and are faced with numerous infuriatingly pointless pages or a member of the healthcare team with a bad attitude it can be extremely difficult not to go too far. Striking a balance between having a spine and making enemies is more of the challenge.

In my humble pre-med opinion, psipsina makes a lot of good points here, about when a nurse's knowledge and experience is useful, and about striking a balance between assertiveness and d-baggery.

I also just want to add that, IMHO, nurses don't usually WANT to page doctors for "pointless" pages, but they need to err on the side of caution and get clarification on an order (orange juice when the patient is NPO notwithstanding) or notify the on-call doctor of something as part of their job. I'm reminded of the time I heard my mother (who has been a nurse for about 30 years) give it right back to a pissy resident who gave her attitude for an FYI notification she had to give him about a patient.

Also, let's play nice, guys.
 
I know nurses have to call about things that we both think are dumb but are part of their protocol. I don't blame them for those, I just want them to combine those calls. The nurses at my hospital are pretty darn good about calling me once with four FYI things instead of separate calls. It's not like we just sit in our call rooms playing video games. I'm often seeing new consults or in the OR or dealing with traumas. Excessive calls make it harder to take care of other patients. Like I said, the nurses here are pretty good with only a couple exceptions.
 
I know nurses have to call about things that we both think are dumb but are part of their protocol. I don't blame them for those, I just want them to combine those calls. The nurses at my hospital are pretty darn good about calling me once with four FYI things instead of separate calls. It's not like we just sit in our call rooms playing video games. I'm often seeing new consults or in the OR or dealing with traumas. Excessive calls make it harder to take care of other patients. Like I said, the nurses here are pretty good with only a couple exceptions.

I agree with all of that, and serial pages like that would irritate the hell out of me, too.
 
I know nurses have to call about things that we both think are dumb but are part of their protocol. I don't blame them for those, I just want them to combine those calls. The nurses at my hospital are pretty darn good about calling me once with four FYI things instead of separate calls. It's not like we just sit in our call rooms playing video games. I'm often seeing new consults or in the OR or dealing with traumas. Excessive calls make it harder to take care of other patients. Like I said, the nurses here are pretty good with only a couple exceptions.
This is probably where we are having a difference of opinion. I don't know how busy the surgical floor stays. In the ICU, we are nearly self sufficient. Most surgeons have standing orders that we can utilize in various different situations. Protocols combined with the rapid reponse team, I'd only call you if I had a bleeder, or guts falling out an abd wound.

My apologies if you work with nervous nellies. Nurses too, get pounded with the "you are going to be sued and forever lose everything" mantra.
 
Excessive calls make it harder to take care of other patients.
again, devils advocate...

unclarified orders, conflicting orders, protocol orders where the attending or day shift resident forgot to actually circle and/or mark the desired order, patient refusing NPO orders, etc. etc. also make it difficult to care for patients. Nurses are generally incredibly busy....we can only be as sufficient for you as you can be for us. Most nurses I know dread calling the physician in the middle of the night (most notably for the attitude that their call is usually going to be received as "insignificant" and "intended only to be bothersome." Its a last resort.

and if you were my resident/attending and you really did have meticulous handwriting, I'd be your best friend. Non-computer ordered entries should be banned in all medicare/medicaid receiving facilities.
 
:laugh:. Good one.

No, its not some random attending. And yes, they do notice.

Cool story, bra, but orders are generally not clarified very well. So yeah, by law, I'm supposed to call you and get such clairified (no matter the time). If Im doing a 24 hour chart check at 2am and I cannot read your chicken scratch writing about NG's to gravity or suction, you are most definitley getting a call. Give me attitide and I will probably turn you in to the supervisor. 🙂


Its your job. do it.


Ah, but therein lies the rub. It's actually not my job. You have to realize that there's a huge disconnect between what the nurses jobs are and what the overnight resident's job is. At most places the overnight intern/resident is carrying multiple pagers, covering many patients who are not his own. His job is to keep all the patients alive and not in excessive pain throughout the night, to make sure all the labs got ordered, to follow-up on a handful of things the day team couldn't get done and signed out to him, and to make sure patients get whatever bowel preps and hydration and stopping of anti-coagulation meds, etc such that they can get whatever procedure they are scheduled for in the morning. And that's it. They are hugely overworked just to accomplish those tasks most nights. And by orders of the attendings, chiefs, etc, that is all the nighttime shift ought to be doing.

The nurses, by contrast, tend to have a lot less to do once their patients go to sleep, so the nursing administration, in its infinite wisdom, has decided that that's the perfect time for them to do a chart review. Which is fine if folks flag things for the day team to follow up on. But not such a good idea if it means they are going to call up the overnight doctor at 3am to ask him what the daytime team meant. That may be protocol, but it's protocol for nurses, not for the doctors. It is NOT "by law". Sorry, but if they told you that, they lied. It is one groups job (the nurses), but not the other's. So there's a conflict built into the system. It's put there because nurses work shorter shifts, and when the patient's are tucked in bed asleep, they have downtime that the hospital wants to utilize, and they didn't think through the consequences on the poor overnight docs who have to field these calls. Honestly, if it doesn't involve patient care for that night, the daytime team really should handle it the next day. It's simply inappropriate for a night time doc to be starting new courses of treatment for patients in the middle of the night, and not appropriate (and often malpractice) to try to decipher the scribbles of someone who is going to be back in the hospital before the patient needs the medication anyhow.

The better nurses save the issues that don't have to be addressed that night for a morning call. The less keyed in ones make multiple calls throughout the night. But don't get confused -- while you may feel it's your job to make those calls, it is often NOT the poor SOB on the other side of the line's job to attend to those calls. He has been given his own set of marching orders and they almost certainly don't align with yours, because his role is to maintain the status quo until the cavalry arrives, not unearth new issues to deal with.
 
I think that as a person, someone should be given some degree of respect, as in treating someone else the way you would like to be treated at the most basic level. Treating someone like dirt just because the other person "hasn't earned respect" is poor character.


Yeah you need a reasonable cause before you unleash the claws on 'em.
 
Ah, but therein lies the rub. It's actually not my job.

It's simply inappropriate for a night time doc to be starting new courses of treatment for patients in the middle of the night, and not appropriate (and often malpractice) to try to decipher the scribbles of someone who is going to be back in the hospital before the patient needs the medication anyhow.

...his role is to maintain the status quo until the cavalry arrives, not unearth new issues to deal with.
Exactly. Unless I was present on their morning/afternoon rounds, I don't actually know the intricacies of their plans, and making incorrect changes is a quick way to get screamed at in the morning.
 
Don't you guys in US hospitals have typewriters? That's how we do stuff in Mexico. Some attendings might write 1 order by hand, but most of the instructions are done with a typewriter to avoid having problems with poor handwriting.

Orders are commonly written or verbal and then typed into the pt's electronic (computerized) chart. When I worked in-pt, our docs wrote the orders in the pt's chart and then then an RN or unit secretary would enter the orders. Working in the ED, techs can technically only take written orders so often we'll write the order and then hand it off to the doc to sign before entering the order ourselves.
 
And if the nurse questions the order because they believe it to be unsafe? I am surely not going to administer anything I feel may be unsafe if I do not have an explanation. But I was told "Do what I ordered" is certainly not going to be a stellar defense in a courtroom. Orders can certainly be misunderstood or miscommunicated. If there is a question of safety "Because I said so" just isn't going to fly. If this was an emergent situation and the nurse felt treatment B may be more beneficial, a simple, "I would like to do treatment A" would suffice and save you from looking like a complete jerk as you made yourself out to be. The nurse isn't there to be your servant.

Respect has to be earned, not given by virtue of accepting your residency position. I'm in a cardiac SICU (Ecmo, VAD, baloonpump, heart trans, lung trans, artificial heart as well as the normal valve repair and CABG) and every intern I have seen is timid. Rightly so. I'm not afraid of the timid intern. I'm afraid of the over confident intern 2 months into his training. However this paradigm shifts as the young physician advances past intern year. Residents that rotate through and demonstrate skill and ability to work as a member of the team are held in high regard. Residents who are still timid at this point are definitely going to be looked down on and not respected.

You gain respect through understanding your own skill set, limitations and the subsequent demonstration these skills to the staff.

If that is how the nurse felt, I'd tell them to give me the needle and get out of the way. Then I'd write them up and talk to administration about their poor judgement. In a dangerous situation, you don't have time to sit the nurse, med student, fellow physician, etc. down and explain pathophysiology. Otherwise I am very respectful to everyone. Even received numerous awards for it. I'm just unwilling to compromise patient safety to give someone a lecture.

As a resident on numerous rotations, you don't have time to develop months worth of respect. Maybe you only have a few days. If the nurse/physician/whatever doesn't think what I do is safe, they can be my guest to discuss it with my faculty.
 
I also just want to add that, IMHO, nurses don't usually WANT to page doctors for "pointless" pages, but they need to err on the side of caution and get clarification on an order (orange juice when the patient is NPO notwithstanding) or notify the on-call doctor of something as part of their job.

I disagree. Again, there are good nurses and bad nurses of all ages/races/sex/etc. Nurses went to school and are constantly getting on the job training. If they haven't learned that NPO means NPO, they don't need to be seeing any of my patients ever. On the contrary, some nurses are able to catch signs of a bad situation very early and notify me accordingly.

If a nurse is going to argue an order, they should have a LEGIT reason. Hypothetically I order a patient to receive a medication that was listed as an allergy. The nurse clarifying my order and asking to write that I am aware of the possible allergy in the chart is a valid reason to give me a call.

Calling me to ask about noon-time meds at 3am is not reason to call the on-call physician. Even if the medication is a poor choice, wait until the physician that wrote the original order arrives at 7am and ask HIM. Still gives you a 5 hour window of opportunity!
 
... I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me because you agreed with what I said.
 
Again, there are good nurses and bad nurses of all ages/races/sex/etc.
Just as there are good doctors and bad doctors.

If your name is on the on call list and I need to call about something, then YES, IT IS YOUR JOB TO ANSWER THE PHONE, LISTEN TO MY QUESTION, AND GIVE ME SOME DIRECTION. Don't like that? Go cry to your attending. As a nurse, I don't deserve to be treated like **** for doing my job just because it interferes with your sleep and you don't like it. Grow up. Or change professions.

Saying that nurses have less to do at night is idiotic. please, go back to doctoring, you know nothing when it comes to nursing.

oh, and yay for teamwork. Its a good thing we (doctors and nurses) are in this together, eh? Sometimes you have to wonder how patients get better at all....
 
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