Asian/Indian american docs--most aren't FMG's

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I love Johnny Walker

I get this feeling people assume that just b/c a med student/resident is not white that he's an FMG--racism lives on! Wow America is so fun

Do people still throw keg parties in their mid to late 20's?
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Where is this coming from? :confused:
 
Where is this coming from? :confused:
 
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Some of our best attendings are FMGs. Their clinical and physical exam skills are extraordinary. Their intuition is amazing and there basic science knowledge is excellent. Of course, there are some bad FMGs. But in general American grads are not very good clinicians and rely too much on tests and not enough on patterns of disease presentation or progression.
 
Don't you think that statement is just a tad bit inflammatory. Not only that, but which foreign medical graduates do you think get to practice in the US? The cream of the crop from all over the world. We won't take you unless you're better than most others in your country. Please spare us your FMGs are so much better than American Grads. There are plenty of competent well trained physicians in this country. Also, if other poor countries had access to the type of tests that USA does and had a malpractice environment like the USA, don't you think the practice pattern would change in other countries to resemble that of the USA?

Lastly, I believe there is a spectrum here just like there is in other countries. Please don't troll in the SDN residencies and rotations forum.
 
Voxel, I give you a thumbs up on that statement, with a few comments though, dude. What is this "you foreign grads"? I actually am a pending American grad. Also, was that last message directed towards me or John, b/c he's the one who said FMG's are better docs, I didn't really say a whole lot about that. About these miserable poor countries who produce the cream of the crop, you have a good point but Whoa! boy don't get so heated. There are some bright minds in every country, right? My original point is that a lot of people assume that if you're not white you're an FMG. Nobody is going to stop anybody from thinking that way, I know I won't try to (I'd rather spend my time saving lives and making $200,000). But what are you going to do about 1/4 of your colleagues being of a different race and yet being raised and educated in the USA?
 
hmmm, thats too bad that it still exists...don't people realize that just because you're not white, doesn't mean you didn't go to school here...did something specific happen to you I love Johnny Walker? I'm wondering why you brought this up?
 
I love JW,

Dude, can I just say I have been greatly wondering why THERE ARE NO MORE KEG PARTIES AFTER 25. Why are people so damn serious once you reach a certain age? It's friggin ridiculous. I went to a commuter school for undergrad...so I totally missed the random drug experimentation, rampant drinking, and sex with marginally legal women that everyone else got to enjoy. I spent most of my time trying not to have my parents catch me watching porn (sad but true). Med school was the first time I really started to drink, but there are no college keggers anymore. You don't even get the random act of sex, that you did at a true kegger. Oh well...

As far as AMG minorities being viewed as FMG's till they open their mouth, welcome to the real world. This is the universe we live in...accept it and move on. I screw around now and again, and bust out a high quality foreign accent while I rip through fifteen differentials for abdominal pain (five of which Harrison's has yet to recognize). High quality comedic relief....and shows the reality to me of how the more we grow, the less we change. And it's not really bigotry, it's just human nature. The most obvious difference is what our faces look like...and that is what we latch on to first.
 
racism in america??? is it me or does racism not exist in every country.

i would like to touch on one subject in particular. someone said something like "the US gets the creme of the crop" which is exactly right. we dont get the average working indian or asian. we get the resourceful, educated ones that want BETTER OPPORTUNITY and are capable of creating these opportunities. these people want to come to america because this IS the best country in the world. yea, we do alot of A##hole things, but come on, this place is the best.

they probably dont say the same thing in india, because realistically, how many americans graduate med school and say "gee, i should move to india and practice medicine."

bottom line, the best go where they will have the best opportunity to excell and make the money they feel their education reflects. should more of us return to the third world and give back? Hell Yea, but this is the way of the world.

people in america (as anywhere) can be close minded, but if you want to collect the money they (or their insurance) will give you, than you have to deal with it.
 
•••quote:••• We won't take you unless you're better than most others in your country. ••••Well I don't agree with the above statement. I have known many people who were just average or even below average, who had an opportunity to come to America and are now practicing here. Of course they had to kick their bu-- off to pass the USMLE but back in thier country they were just as good as most of the other med students and sometimes even worse. So people in all ranges of IQ come here, not necessarily the cream. Its just a matter of getting an OPPORTUNITY (VISA)and resources to come in US. Rest the motivation of practicing in one of the best countries in the whole world keeps them moving--- :)
 
yeah I don't agree either with ONLY the cream of the crop coming over here...yeah they had to do well on their exams to come here, but I'm sure some people in other countries don't want to come here...I love this country too (born and raised here), but don't assume that's EVERYONE's opinion outside of here. I agree with there are more opportunities here, etc., but people stay in their own countries for different reasons (family, culture, etc).
 
Quotes
_____________________________________________________________________________________

"I love Johnny Walker "

I get this feeling people assume that just b/c a med student/resident is not white that he's an FMG--racism lives on! Wow America is so fun

"Voxel"

We won't take you unless you're better than most others in your country.
______________________________________________________________________________________

First of all ?I love Johnny Walker? please don?t look down upon yourself because of your color. I am proud of being a FMG for the reasons below:

#1: We are the best in our countries
#2: Are we the best in the US? To answer this question please look at these facts:
To compared with the AMGs, we are here doing our residency because we?ve fulfill the requirements below:
1) USMLE Score much higher than AMGs
2) Experience more than AMGs, ie. Research, Clinical?
3) Publications they seldom ask the AMGs

So if they call me FMG, I am happy! :clap:
 
Superian,

IF what you say is true, then that only emphasizes the point that America only takes the best of the crop.

You people cant have it both ways. You guys cant say on one hand that FMGs are not outstanding in their own country and yet on the other hand say that they are better than American med grads. Because we all know that the average foreign medical grad IS NOT SUPERIOR TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN MED GRAD. I'm not saying they are inferior, I'm saying their equal.

So which is it people? Choose one of hte following options:

1) The FMGs that come to America are generally superior to their American counterparts and are also superior to their IMG/FMG counterparts.

OR

2) The FMGs are average amongst their own FMG comrades and thus are also average amongst American grads.

Some of you people are trying to pick parts of each of those mutually exclusive scenarios to try and argue that FMGs are both better than American grads AND AT THE SAME TIME average compared to their FMG comrades. Clearly both of those things cant be true at the same time.
 
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posted by I love JW:
I get this feeling people assume that just b/c a med student/resident is not white that he's an FMG--racism lives on! Wow America is so fun
---------------------------------

This is very true but its nothing to whine about. We cannot do anything about other people's assumptions because this is a free country. Do you have to live with it? Yes, but remember our country is generous enough to set up laws that minimizes ACTS of racism. I think it is a frequent fault of ours that we tend to look at what we lack and not at what we have accomplished. Our country has made progress from the days of slavery, to the days of the Japanese internment up to the days following the 9/11 attacks. Racism is alive in many parts of the US, but for crying out loud- THAT IS INEVITABLE IN ANY FORM OF SOCIETY! In fact, I'd rather be a target of racism here than in any other country where you'll probably get more than just mere "assumptions of where you finished medical school".

posted by superian:
#1: We are the best in our countries
#2: Are we the best in the US? To answer this question please look at these facts:
To compared with the AMGs, we are here doing our residency because we've fulfill the requirements below:
1) USMLE Score much higher than AMGs
2) Experience more than AMGs, ie. Research, Clinical…
3) Publications they seldom ask the AMGs
-------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is, virtually all programs in the US will give priority to an AMG because that's the way it should be! Out of the vast pool of IMG's that are vying for the remaining spots, its a natural presumption that only the top performers will make it, and I think this is true most of the time. I'm an IMG and if I make it through residency, you're damn right I should be proud! No way can I say though that I am better than the top performers among my AMG counterparts! Equal? More like it! Different? Yes! And that's what makes it work!
:)
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Superian:
•Quotes
__________________________________________________ 1) USMLE Score much higher than AMGs
•••••Hmm. Interesting observation. There are quite a bit of FMGs at my home institution. I've spoken to many of them about this issue. I studied for the USMLE for 3 weeks at about 8 hours per day. I scored a 99. The average FMG I've spoken to studied for 5-6 months at 8 hours per day. They got 99s as well. Now, if AMGs studied 5-6 months, they'd all be getting 99s as well. Nothing special.
 
i am an img from india.nowadays its very difficult to get a visa to come from india to usa. unfortunately many of the brightest doctors in india are not able to get their visas and now a lot of doctors dont go to usa bcos of the visa issue. unfortunately for the american health industry, the indian doctors who get their visas are usually those who have married someone in usa or is a green card holder bcos of some american relative sponsoring them and a small number are able to make it bcos they are have great powers of persuasion and are able to convince the people at the american embassy to give them the visas. this is my perspective and i feel this is particularly relevant in south india where a lot of smart doctors dont get their visas. maybe in the 60s or 70s when usa was bringing tons of indian docs to america, the best may have come . but i dont think it is that true now especially where i come from in india. what i can say though is that the people who come to usa are the ambitious indian docs or the greedy indian docs and not necessarily the smartest ones. i dont think i can make a general statement that all imgs are better or amgs are better.
another thing was about the original post that asian/ indian origin amgs are assumed to be imgs. during my interview trail i hardly experienced this, in spite of the fact that i am an img and indian. most americans used to assume that i am an amg and only when i told them that i was from india would they know. in fact one amg was even telling me abt how he didnt like his medical school now bcos the place was full of imgs and the imgs didnt apeak good english. he was embarassed when i told him that i was from india.
another thing about the original post is that i really wonder why amgs of asian/indian origin are so ashamed of being mistaken to be an img. why cant they just tell the person concerned that they are amgs.
sometimes people tend to be overly sensitive and i think white americans are probably the ones who are most accomodating about this and only rarely does an american make a racist comment. in fact i feel a lot of times comments are twisted and given the form of racial slurs. i didnt experience any form of racism during my interview trail. i did realise that i was being discriminated against bcos i was an img but not for the color of my skin.
 
[. what i can say though is that the people who come to usa are the ambitious indian docs or the greedy indian docs and not necessarily the smartest ones QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

are you a 'greedy' Indian doc as you interviewed here in US which indicates you plan to come here.

I agree that not all the 'Indian cream' is able to get visa. I just wish all the smart docs from India got the opportunity to come here and let everybody know what really is 'Indian cream' like
 
My fellow med students and other curious minds,

I am a brown man born in the subcontinent, spent half of my life there and half here. I guess you could call me LTOB ‘eltob' (long time off the boat). I am going to medical in DC.
Anyway here is my two cents worth.

Brownman,

You are hilarious. I dig your writing style. I was laughing my a$$ off when I read your post. Please keep it up. About the keg parties, if your medical school is part of a university there should be keg parties there frequently. You shouldn't have any problem hitting those fraternity and house parties. Let us(me) know if your med student status helped you with whatever you were aiming to achieve at those parties. By the way, my friends and I still throw parties, no kegs due to high rate of flatulence among fine looking females. Throw your own, those marginally legals will come :D

A great medical student once said "STUDY HARD PLAY EVEN HARDER".

On to more mundane matters of life.

Johnny Walker,

Who really care about what other people think. You can't live your life according to what other people think. Fornicate them. Show these bigots who you are with your intelligence and know how and dominate their ass when you hit the floors :cool:

John90210,

I am sure the FMGs are good at physical examination skills. I am sure they are good in general but spare me the bull that they are all amazing and they are gods gift to healthcare and America&#8230; <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />

Here is a point to ponder: How does a MBBS degree amazingly become an MD degree after taking couple of exams. I would really appreciate if you can find a satisfactory explanation to enlighten fools like me.

Kamya,

Great point. Not every FMG now a day is not cream of the crop, as some have portrayed them. They come this country through marriage or other arrangement (getting MBA, MPH) that has less to do with their brilliance in medicine.

Simseema,

Great quote.

Superian,

The FMGs who get residencies might have higher scores. Did you ever think that score might be skewed due to many American born students going to Caribbean or other countries to get their MD degrees coming back to the US to practice. Also, on average FMGs perform poorly compared to AMGs. (Given, if average is a measure of anything these days). Also, please tell me how many FMGs have had research experience and publications in a peer reviewed journal prior to their residency. I could strongly argue not many. Many of the FMGs end up doing research during their rejection years to support themselves or to do science related work until they get their residencies. But then again, there are exceptions to this statement. But it's hardly the norm :D

Hypersomniac,
Great post :wink:

Thanks for your time,

A humble fool :clap:
 
I could even tolerate White American MDs showing some 'attitude' towards IMGs.But,I cannot take the same 'attitude' shown by some Indian-American MDs who went to US medschools and other foreign medschools.I have seen some 'odd behavior' pattern of these breeds in the hospital.

I have tried to understand that behavior pattern with no success.
Any explanation for this behavior?

Are they trying to show that Indian-American breeds are superior than Indian breeds? :confused:
 
Madanraj,

Though I may not be of Indian ethnicity/creed/race, allow me to sight a flaw in your understanding.

Why would you accept a white MD's attitude and not from an Indian-American's who come from the same US medical school? Are you somehow implying that it's okay because you percieve Whites as superior over Indians? Do you feel that just because one happens to have an Indian surname and a certain tone of skin that you expect to have a certain connection or clique? I'm really fed up with distinctions between race. If you're American, so be it! Or shall we have it your way and make distinctions between Irish Americans and Polish Americans as well? It's not their fault they were born and raised in the US (in fact, I see it as a privilege!). If its attitude you have a problem with, it probably does not have to do with what breed a doctor is but from what med school he graduated from.

Does that happen to make sense now? :)
 
Hypersomniac,

I think my post was unclear.I do not percieve white Americans are superior to me or my skills.(Infact,I do not think anyone in the world better than me.. :wink: .)

When I mentioned 'tolerate'it was the acceptance of resentment by some American MDs of me being equal (or more) to their skills,intelligence,knowledge and chance of becoming a potential professional rival!

I agree that only 'attitude' bothers me.I did highlight that only 'some'Indian-Americans have that attitude who claim themselves as Indians.May be they are confused about their identity.They are popularly called 'American born confused desis').I am not generalizing all Indian-Americans.
I also agree that it is a previlege to be born as American.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I studied for the USMLE for 3 weeks at about 8 hours per day. I scored a 99. The average FMG I've spoken to studied for 5-6 months at 8 hours per day. They got 99s as well. Now, if AMGs studied 5-6 months, they'd all be getting 99s as well. Nothing special.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am proud of you that you got 99. However I know most of AMGs can get into the residency with 70's VS. IMGs don't even have a interview if less than 85. If you want to say AMGs can get the same thing with effort ten times less than that of IMGs, I agree. People would love their own kids rather than others'. That's human nature, nothing special.

What I want to say is that being call IMGs is nothing bad because we are not below anybody. :clap:
 
Quotes:
_______________________________________________________________________
1) Asian/Indian american docs--most aren't FMG's :p :mad:
2) I could even tolerate White American MDs showing some 'attitude' towards IMGs.But,I cannot take the same 'attitude' shown by some Indian-American MDs who went to US medschools...
Are they trying to show that Indian-American breeds are superior than Indian breeds? :wink: _______________________________________________________________________

Only now I realized that the problems is some Indian American believed that their grandpa were white American, so they have good reason to keep them away from their brothers and say I am not not... not... not... :D :clap:
 
Since when is coming to America a God-given right?

When my ancestors came over, it was a privilege to be able to come to America. It still is a privilege today. I think a lot of us seem to have some sense of entitlement regarding immigration to the US.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted
•Quotes:

Only now I realized that the problems is some Indian American believed that their grandpa were white American, so they have good reason to keep them away from their brothers and say I am not not... not... not... :D :clap: •••••I don't think that's true. For example, I'm Indian-American, I KNOW my ancestors are Indian (obviously), but ~80% of my friends are NON-Indian...not on purpose, but I am drawn to make friends who are are somewhat similar to me....I guess that means I don't have many things in common w/some Indians I've met. I don't keep away from "my brothers" on purpose, I'm friends w/people based on their personality, not on their race. I don't feel any obligation to be closer to Indian friends than others...thats just me though
:D
 
Macgyver said •••quote:•••Since when is coming to America a God-given right? ••••When the Aeroplanes started flying into American airports from elsewhere <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mallu-05:
•

Here is a point to ponder: How does a MBBS degree amazingly become an MD degree after taking couple of exams. I would really appreciate if you can find a satisfactory explanation to enlighten fools like me.

•••••The MBBS degree (or the MBBCh) does NOT "become" the MD degree. Ever. Period. Regardless of how many exams you take.

The MD degree is the terminal medical degree in the US; elsewhere (as you may know) it is more akin to the PhD, a research based degree usually awarded to physicians several years after completing medical school and producing a body of research work.

Physicians trained outside of the US (and thus not possessing the MD degree) are allowed to use the MD as part of their title when practicing in the US. The degrees are seen as equivalent and it has been determined that the use of the MD abbreviation by people possessing an MBBS, etc. is not an attempt to obfuscate but rather to cut down on any confusion. Thus, many IMGs will use MD after their name but if asked specifically what their degree is (ie, on legal documents) should state MBBS (or whatever). Not sure is ECFMG was behind this, but it is common practice to use MD for an allopathic foreign trained physician as opposed to MBBS etc.

Taking the USMLEs and getting ECFMG certification does not convert the MBBS etc to an MD. Only getting the research based degree abroad or completing medical school in the US (and other countries which award the MD) will accomplish that.

Hope this helps.
 
What school are you referring to?

•••quote:•••Originally posted by neutropeniaboy:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by Superian:
•Quotes
__________________________________________________ 1) USMLE Score much higher than AMGs
•••••Hmm. Interesting observation. There are quite a bit of FMGs at my home institution. I've spoken to many of them about this issue. I studied for the USMLE for 3 weeks at about 8 hours per day. I scored a 99. The average FMG I've spoken to studied for 5-6 months at 8 hours per day. They got 99s as well. Now, if AMGs studied 5-6 months, they'd all be getting 99s as well. Nothing special.•••••
 
Thank you Ms(Dr)Kimberly Cox for your post about MBBS vs MD confusion. I just want to let you know that many FMGs who has MBBS degree tend to say they have an MD degree to most of the people who inquire about their degree.

Do you have any idea about the research or publication requirement for FMGs?
Thanks
a fool :D
 
Quotes:
_________________________________________________________________________
:oops: I get this feeling people assume that just b/c a med student/resident is not white that he's an FMG--racism lives on! Wow America is so fun

:confused: hmmm, thats too bad that it still exists...did something specific happen to you I love Johnny Walker? I'm wondering why you brought this up?

<img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> Only now I realized that the problems is some Indian American believed that their grandpa were white American, so they have good reason to keep them away from their brothers and say I am not not... not... not...

:p Simseema17: I'm Indian-American...I'm friends w/people based on their personality, not on their race. I don't feel any obligation to be closer to Indian friends than others...thats just me though
__________________________________________________________________________

<img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> :clap: simseema17! That's the point! you are not the SOME! However SOME thought it was disgraceful to be considered as a FMG and wanted to clarify. SOME condemned racism. but who is the real racist! Isn't it interesting???
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mallu-05:
•
Do you have any idea about the research or publication requirement for FMGs?
Thanks
a fool :D •••••Are you referring to the requirements to be awarded the MD degree? That depends on the institution. I know, for example, at the Flinders University of South Australia you must be at least 5 years out of training, write a dissertation, etc. to be awarded the degree. With the exception of the years of training requirement, it is much the same as a PhD program here in the states (although generally not as long). Remember the MD degree is awarded as a research degree at foreign institutions which do not award the MD degree as their terminal medical degree. If you wish to obtain a US based MD degree, you must repeat medical school.

There is no special research or publication requirement for FMGs. If you are inquiring in reference to the MD degree - again, it depends on the program awarding the degree. Best to check with them. If however you are inquiring about such requirements as a prelude to US based residency training, then there is no requirement. Beyond the requirement of an ECFMG certificate, IMGs are not subject to any additional requirements to obtain a position in or out of the NRMP. This doesn't mean that there aren't tacit requirements which IMGs might be held to, but it would be illegal for programs to admit that they require a higher level of accomplishment for an IMG as opposed to an AMG. Certainly having more accomplishments makes you more attractive to programs, but I know of none which require them for IMGs which aren't required for US students as well.

Hope this helps.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mallu-05:
•I just want to let you know that many FMGs who has MBBS degree tend to say they have an MD degree to most of the people who inquire about their degree.
•••••I don't doubt that. It is much less confusing and easier than explaining what the degree is, how it is the same, etc. Probably the same issues that DOs suffer with.

However, LEGALLY, they must state they have the MBBS, etc. degree on all legal documents. There is no such requirement for polite social chatter. :D
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by John90210:
•But in general American grads are not very good clinicians and rely too much on tests and not enough on patterns of disease presentation or progression.•••••It's stupidity like this that gives FMG's a bad name. American grads receive the absolute best medical training that is available. As a group, they provide the stellar treatment, and given the choice, I believe most people would opt to receive their care her in the states. Making inflammatory and deragotory remarks like this does nothing but drive a deep wedge between AMG's and IMG's. You are doing your colleagues a real disservice by offering up such knee-jerk idiocy.
 
klebsiella is probably right that noone should judge someone just based on whether he is img or amg. its just too big a set to make a generalisation. i just hope that once an img gets into residency this rule has some validity.
 
Once an IMG is in the US system, he/ she should incorporate himself/ herself into the system. Forget about IMG vs. AMG. IMGs should treat AMGs as colleagues rather than rivals and vice versa. That will make the working relationships more enjoyable. We are all colleagues and should help each other. Be a team player. I think this is even more important than clinical skills and medical knowledge (provided the minimum standard is met). Be more professional. Over-generalization doesn't help. Arrogance doesn't help. I never judge people based on where they are from. If you are a good guy, you are a good guy! There are good guys and bad guys anywhere in the world! :p :rolleyes: :D
 
My advice to any IMG (or an Indian US grad with an inferiority complex) is this: Stop worrying about what other people think.

Regardless of what gets talked about on message boards, the reality is that in practice there is little discrimination against a qualified physician as a result of where he or she came from. I've yet to see separate bathrooms or drinking fountains that IMG's have to use and I've never been in a hospital where IMG's had to sit at the back of the cafeteria. Furthermore, neither I nor any of my fellow residents have ever refused to work or socialize with someone based on where they came from or trained.

The fact that IMG's have to do better on the boards and compete for fewer spaces is not discrimination, it's simply the way the system has to work. It costs ALOT to educate a medical student in the US, much of which is paid for by the government, so to have US graduates then left out in the cold when it comes time for post-grad training because someone happened to score better on an exam would be completely futile. Keep in mind that despite the obstacles that must be overcome, this country is still willing to give foreign grads an opportunity to train and practice in the US. Compare this to Canada where, despite physician shortages, the opportunity to practice medicine with a foreign degree are for all practical purposes non-existent.

I've lived in New Jersey all my life and graduated from RWJ. Both the state and the UMDNJ health network have a significant number of foreign-trained doctors yet I have never once seen one talked down to or disrespected in either the clinical or academic setting. In the hospital they are given the same respect and attention as any other doctor, no more no less.

By no means am I saying that biases don't exist or that some US grads won't carry certain prejudices, but ask yourself why you're concerned with seeking the approval or friendship of someone like this? By and large I think the overwhelming majority of physicians in the US are more concerned with how another doctor actually practices medicine than where he or she learned to do so. Keep in mind that all IMG's, while foreign educated, are also US-trained. In this country if you work hard and prove your your abilities, you will earn the respect of your colleagues no matter where you come from or how you got here. That may sound excessively sentimental, but I believe it to be true.
 
I unequivocally, and absolutely agree. Well said.
 
well said academic radiation oncologist and johny.
 
Well said and be convinced!
 
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