Asian tougher to get in

[flaahless]

so i found the article and graphs, my numbers i quoted where not exact which i apologize for, but there is definitely an obvious descrepancy in GPA and SAT of admitted students broken down by race:
sat: http://www.dailybruin.com/photos/2007/may/02/22505/
gpa: http://www.dailybruin.com/photos/2007/may/02/22503/
so regardless of athletics or not, its evident. also this quote is relevant:
"But Ward Connerly, a former UC Regent and author of legislation that banned affirmative action in California, insists UCLA is illegally attempting to admit more minorities, and, while doing so, sacrificing the academic standards of the university."

First, Ward Connerly is a joke.
Secondly, you read the graph wrong. The scores were never 1000, they were around 1200 which is a good score. You were looking at the New SAT which is scored on a 2400 scale and the scores are ~1800. Now, for 2006 only 96 african american students enrolled in UCLA. Their scores were about 1800, Imagine if 1/5th of those students were athletes, that would really drop the scale. So lets give the athletes a generous 1500, (500 on each section) that would give the other students scores of ~1900. Give the athletes scores of 1200, and the other students scores rise much closer to 2000.
Third, most minority applicants to UCLA do not come from Mater Dei, or Servite, Damien, Orange Lutheran... they come from Westchester, Dorsey, Crenshaw, Lynwood, Long Beach Poly.... inner city public schools that do not offer extensive amounts of honors courses for student to "pad" their gpa. So a mere numerical gpa value doesn't say much, you have to actually see the letter grade distribution.

i would like to hope that people taking the MCAT, especially reading the passages before answering questions is "analytical thinking" (granted a large portion of the test is also test taking skill), and conceptual thinking can in part be gauged by one's ability to understand concepts, retain them, and produce them on tests, reflected in their gpa. are these not (at this time) the most efficient way to judge those qualities?

There are so many variables surrounding the MCAT it's ridiculous. Sure it's the "best" predictor we have, but it's still crappy nonetheless.

and speaking of which, look at your own mdapplicants profile. i dont want to join the ranks of the racist comments on your profile, but i must point to your previous statement asking me of how minorities get advantages? ahem, im just looking at your interviews (at UCs primarily a MCAT/GPA screen) and am impressed with the list. granted i think that you did deserve your acceptances and am not saying otherwise, i must say that there is a HUGE descrepancy between other interviewees' scores at those schools and yours (i doubt that they have zero extracurriculars, no upward trend, and didnt apply early). just to point it out. so i would say that you DID have an advantage there and yes, i am jealous .

So my ethnicity gave me an advantage at the UCs, even though proposition 209 strictly prohibits race from being considered by the UC system? Weird. Sure I'd give myself an advantage, but not because i'm african american, but because I approached this application process a little differently than most students. However, you, just like many ignorant SDNers just "assume" that my race was the most influential factor without knowing my extensive efforts to contact influential people of the UC system to ensure that my application received a thorough look. I've met mayors, chancellors, deans, provosts, presidents etc. That, combined with applying very early, and the vast connections that I made through my research, community service, Pre-med club and my activities as a President's Scholar and President's Ambassador of my university, gave me an advantage. But you don't know that because I never mentioned it. All you see is my VR score and ethnicity and automatically think it's due to some type of "minority advantage" that I've had. Thanks. You can add your comment to others.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[oompaloompab0i]

First, Ward Connerly is a joke.
Secondly, you read the graph wrong. The scores were never 1000, they were around 1200 which is a good score. You were looking at the New SAT which is scored on a 2400 scale and the scores are ~1800. Now, for 2006 only 96 african american students enrolled in UCLA. Their scores were about 1800, Imagine if 1/5th of those students were athletes, that would really drop the scale. So lets give the athletes a generous 1500, (500 on each section) that would give the other students scores of ~1900. Give the athletes scores of 1200, and the other students scores rise much closer to 2000.
Third, most minority applicants to UCLA do not come from Mater Dei, or Servite, Damien, Orange Lutheran... they come from Westchester, Dorsey, Crenshaw, Lynwood, Long Beach Poly.... inner city public schools that do not offer extensive amounts of honors courses for student to "pad" their gpa. So a mere numerical gpa value doesn't say much, you have to actually see the letter grade distribution.


There are so many variables surrounding the MCAT it's ridiculous. Sure it's the "best" predictor we have, but it's still crappy nonetheless.


So my ethnicity gave me an advantage at the UCs, even though proposition 209 strictly prohibits race from being considered by the UC system? Weird. Sure I'd give myself an advantage, but not because i'm african american, but because I approached this application process a little differently than most students. However, you, just like many ignorant SDNers just "assume" that my race was the most influential factor without knowing my extensive efforts to contact influential people of the UC system to ensure that my application received a thorough look. I've met mayors, chancellors, deans, provosts, presidents etc. That, combined with applying very early, and the vast connections that I made through my research, community service, Pre-med club and my activities as a President's Scholar and President's Ambassador of my university, gave me an advantage. But you don't know that because I never mentioned it. All you see is my VR score and ethnicity and automatically think it's due to some type of "minority advantage" that I've had. Thanks. You can add your comment to others.

as i said, i didnt get the numbers completely correctly initially, that is not the issue, but as the posted numbers indicate, there is still a significant descrepancy between asian/white and other minorities, about 200 points in fact. your assumptions are completely unwarranted, and the rest are all unsubstantiated guestimates, lets look at the numbers for simplicity, if you want to go into each factor, then this conversation because overtly complicated. im not saying that all minorities are dumb, or whatever you think im saying. im saying there is an obvious trend in difference between scores, thats it. yes, ward connerly is an idiot and everyone else that served in the UC administration correct? im simply saying as he has worked intimately in the system, his quote is a should be considered substantial evidence over your assumptions. just because their is a proposition, doesnt mean that it doesnt happen, dont be ignorant if you think rules are always followed in any administrative construct.

mcat yes, may be a poor indicator, but if you have a better way to look at it, please tell amcas and maybe you can let them in on your genius. until then, lets just say that mcat does 'fairly judge' those abilities. also, most UCs have simply a gpa/mcat/ec screen, doesnt initially matter who knows you or what not. some of it is simply fed into a computer, caluculated out and interviews given. your scores do not make the cut, doesnt matter whoever you know. vanderbilt, usc, uci, ucsd, ucsf.....you definitely must know A LOT of influential people then huh? first, politicians (mayors) probably wont do much, and interview at UCSF? who do you know...please let me know. im glad that you met a lot of people through ECs, but still it doesnt seem you deserve those schools solely based on that because im sure that many 'igorant' SDNers know people from ECs too, are you that unique? if your still doing secondaries at the end of august, yes thats early, but seriously not significantly early to give you substantially higher chances. most people that i know that interview at those schools early on, were done with secondaries end of july, early august. well, congratulations on getting in because you know people. lets just say maybe, just maybe you knew someone that got you all those acceptances and interviews, from so many different schools (really influential people hrm?) from different areas, fine, your different. but what about the others? try to find anything, even anecdotal evidence of any asian/white with significantly lower scores than those schools' avgs, but im sure you will find anecdotal evidence for minorities. im not hating, just saying that you have an advantage, stop denying it and just accept it. im jealous what can i say (is it so wrong to have worked as hard as someone and be perturbed that some unspoken-for advantage reverse discriminates me)? good luck on your full ride to vanderbilt mr. CSULB. (i guess im in the ranks of all the other SDNers out there that think AA is quite conspicuous in the med app system, sorry for my ignorance )

 

[flaahless]

as i said, i didnt get the numbers completely correctly initially, that is not the issue, but as the posted numbers indicate, there is still a significant descrepancy between asian/white and other minorities, about 200 points in fact. your assumptions are completely unwarranted, and the rest are all unsubstantiated guestimates, lets look at the numbers for simplicity, if you want to go into each factor, then this conversation because overtly complicated. im not saying that all minorities are dumb, or whatever you think im saying. im saying there is an obvious trend in difference between scores, thats it. yes, ward connerly is an idiot and everyone else that served in the UC administration correct? im simply saying as he has worked intimately in the system, his quote is a should be considered substantial evidence over your assumptions. just because their is a proposition, doesnt mean that it doesnt happen, dont be ignorant if you think rules are always followed in any administrative construct.

If 1/5th of your entire population is made up of student athletes who generally score very low, how is the data not going to be skewed? How? Secondly, since prop 209 was passed, minority admission rates have plummetted. That's your evidence for not having AA. If there was AA, then the numbers wouldn't have dropped as drastically as they did.

mcat yes, may be a poor indicator, but if you have a better way to look at it, please tell amcas and maybe you can let them in on your genius. until then, lets just say that mcat does 'fairly judge' those abilities. also, most UCs have simply a gpa/mcat/ec screen, doesnt initially matter who knows you or what not. some of it is simply fed into a computer, caluculated out and interviews given.

If that's the case, then why are there applicants with 35+/3.8+ that haven't received interviews to UCs? Some of these applicants were rejected pre-secondary, so that proves that you're assumption is wrong.

your scores do not make the cut, doesnt matter whoever you know.

Thanks. I didn't realize a 7vr and an upward trend made me ineligible. I should withdraw my application.

vanderbilt, usc, uci, ucsd, ucsf.....you definitely must know A LOT of influential people then huh? first, politicians (mayors) probably wont do much, and interview at UCSF? who do you know...please let me know.

Dr. Michael V. Drake

im glad that you met a lot of people through ECs, but still it doesnt seem you deserve those schools solely based on that because im sure that many 'igorant' SDNers know people from ECs too, are you that unique? if your still doing secondaries at the end of august, yes thats early, but seriously not significantly early to give you substantially higher chances. most people that i know that interview at those schools early on, were done with secondaries end of july, early august.

Thanks for assessing which schools I deserve and do not deserve.

well, congratulations on getting in because you know people.

I didn't get in because I knew people. It was a combination applying early, writing a strong personal statement, having good ECs, overcoming some difficult life experiences, networking with professors, deans etc... Fact is, in the application process, numbers are not absolute. It takes a lot more than just stellar numbers, I made sure my numbers were good enough and devoted my efforts to other parts of the application. VR wasn't as high as I'd thought it would be, so I made up for it by spending a painstakingly amount of time eloquently writing my primary and secondary apps.

lets just say maybe, just maybe you knew someone that got you all those acceptances and interviews, from so many different schools (really influential people hrm?) from different areas, fine, your different. but what about the others? try to find anything, even anecdotal evidence of any asian/white with significantly lower scores than those schools' avgs, but im sure you will find anecdotal evidence for minorities.

I know plenty.

im not hating,

Yeah you are.

just saying that you have an advantage, stop denying it and just accept it. im jealous what can i say (is it so wrong to have worked as hard as someone and be perturbed that some unspoken-for advantage reverse discriminates me)? good luck on your full ride to vanderbilt mr. CSULB. (i guess im in the ranks of all the other SDNers out there that think AA is quite conspicuous in the med app system, sorry for my ignorance )

What advantage have I had? You don't know me, you're just assuming by what you see posted on MDapps. You don't know how hard I did or did not work. You don't know what I've been through, what I've overcome, how tall I am. The only fact in this argument, is that fact that you don't know me beyond my MDapps and what little bit of information I drop on this forum. And as such, all your conclusions are invalid.

Real talk, I don't know what you have against me. Before this thread I haven't said two words to you. I didn't attack you, your stats, your successes or failures, nor did I dictate what you do and do not deserve. I just contested the data you showed. Save your congratulations for someone else.

Long Beach State for life. Go Beach!

 

[Vizsla]

why is this even open for discussion?...everyone knows its true. asian and white students accepted to med schools have the highest averages and they are compared to each other within their own races when being considered for interviews/acceptance (since the committees want to keep the demographics of each class relatively stable yr to yr). if you are being compared to students with higher averages, of course its gonna be harder to look better on paper.

 

[Berkman]

So my ethnicity gave me an advantage at the UCs, even though proposition 209 strictly prohibits race from being considered by the UC system? Weird. Sure I'd give myself an advantage, but not because i'm african american, but because I approached this application process a little differently than most students.

Oh please stop it and get off your damn high horse. What a slap in the face to those who are not URM with stats, ECs, and LORs better than yours. Yes you were given an advantage because you're black. You're proud of being black, yes? Why not be proud of the fact that being black helped you get into medical school?

 

[u2doc]

In my opinion, the admissions process is fleeting and can be a random crapshoot in most cases. What matters is, if someone finishes medical school and passes the boards, they are a doctor. And if anyone is motivated enough, they can do it, no matter what their college stats were. URM status is needed, because the diversity of doctors should match the diversity of the population, and if that means lowering admissions requirements for URMs, so be it. As long as they pass medical school, they are doctors. So in the grand scheme of things, admissions requirements for medical school does not matter.

On a random sidenote (which is related to this thread), I am Asian, and I had to convince my parents to become a premed. They tried very hard to talk me out of it, since I had been accepted to a prestigious business school and because medical school takes a lot of time. My parents have always given me the option of doing anything, even becoming an art historian, or a rock musician (sadly, this dream was curbed by my lack of musical talent). Most of the stereotypes presented in some people's arguments are very unfair. The times are a-changing, and most of the parents are too.

 

[flaahless]

Oh please stop it and get off your damn high horse. What a slap in the face to those who are not URM with stats, ECs, and LORs better than yours. Yes you were given an advantage because you're black. You're proud of being black, yes? Why not be proud of the fact that being black helped you get into medical school?

Why can't you be proud that i've been successful? Real talk, the only people that bring up my ethnicity are SDNers. Everyone I know in real life that knows who I am, knows how hard I've worked, what I've been through etc, understands that I've earned my success. You don't know me whatsoever. And for an anonymous person to sit here and say that my ethnicity was key to my success rather than a lot of hard work is flat out disrespectful. I could have cured cancer, you don't know! You don't know what ethnicity I put on amcas. You have no clue what made me successful, all you're doing is using my mdapps to perpetuate whatever racial prejudices you have.

An SDNer who is on the adcomm at one of the schools I was accepted to said that I would be equally as successful if I were white. By the way, this school does NOT practice AA. So how about you take your anti-AA sentiments and your belief that all URMS have some advantage in the app process and shove it up ___.

A slap in the face to non urms? Have you ever seen me diss any non-urm on this site? All I do is challenge the barrage of invalid anti-AA and anti-urm data that many bitter premeds bring on here.

I'm gone.

 

[oompaloompab0i]

first of all, i never addressed you initially, and you were the one that questioned my statement that minorities get advantages. all of the convo before was addressing this, the advantages of minorities in the educational system. thats it. i agree with Berkman, just stop glorifying all your achievements and being cocky. i guess some humility and appreciation for the system would be a less controversial response instead of "i deserved this because i did all this and know all these special people". im not saying you didnt do awesome things, but all pre-meds do great things, im saying that you should just accept the fact being black helped. there is nothing wrong with that. why do you think you're so special and better than everyone else with all your activities and connections? whatever, im not going to argue anymore about how wrong YOUR assumptions are, and how you think MY assumptions are equally wrong, there is no end. i hope wherever you go, you do well and that your future USMLE scores, which largely determines your residency placement, will truly reflect your 'competency' as a physician (no racial help there).

im gone.

 

[DoctaJay]

My goodness. The sad part is that many of you will be my colleagues. The wasting of countless posts on these dead horse topics is exhausting for anyone who has been a member on SDN for more than 1 year. I'm going to post what I posted 8 MONTHS AGO when this thread first started:

--------------------------------------------------------

I was a premed not too long ago, so I can understand how these topics may seem important, but when you get to medical school....NO ONE CARES.. I know facts are often disregarded in these threads but I'll post them anyway, so when I die history will tell of my efforts :

*COMPETENCY is determined by PASSING YOUR USMLE BOARDS.

MCATs, GPA, LORS, research, blah blah blah, get you into medical school. Passing Step 1 means that you are competent in the BOOK WORK of medical school. Passing Step II shows your clinical competancy (to a certain extent), and I have no idea what Step III is for cause its far away for me and I have more important things to shove into my brain.

Please my friends; don't drudge yourself down into these stereotypical mindsets (both URMs and non-URMs alike). Can I look at my medical school classmate who got in because he played college basketball and think that I'm smarter than him? NO, because I don't know him nor do I have time to get to know him. But if he passes his boards then he is competent. Should I look at my asian classmate and be surprised because I did better than him on my biochem and histology tests...I mean, I am black.....NO. We both studied hard, and I just came out on top this time. Stop worrying about others; this process is a crap shoot. If you are an adcomm and you have 2000 applicants who have a 35 MCAT and 3.8+ gpa, great LORs, research, etc., it really just turns into a crap shoot. But if it was meant to be, you'll be in school next year. But of course, no one will listen so I'll try to go back to enjoying my xmas break.

 

[flaahless]

first of all, i never addressed you initially,

Go back to your post #150. "and speaking of which, look at your own mdapplicants profile." And then you went on to bash my mdapps profile. After all I did was asked you to substantiate your claim that were were 400 pt discrepencies in the SAT scores between minorities and non-minorities at UCLA. And then you say I'm being cocky and arrogant for defending myself after you sit there and disrespect all the hard work I've done; judging me and telling me what that I don't deserve what I've earned. Eat a ___. I'm not arrogant, I'm just stupid for arguing with you and attempting to "prove" myself to some prejudiced premeds who already have their minds made up on who I am.

im saying that you should just accept the fact being black helped.

That's a fact? Prove it. My proof = Prop. 209, your proof = mdapps. Done.

 

[flaahless]

Real talk Jay, on this site I feel like I always have to defend myself against someone trying to discredit what I've earned. I didn't post my mdapps for that. I posted it because I used mdapps to figure out which schools to apply to, what applicants did that worked, what didn't work etc. And I have the responsibility to post my story and hopefully help someone who is applying in 09'. But for so many sdners to disrespect is uncalled for. And it's not just me, a lot of URMs are going through it on this site. It's ridiculous man. I know I'm just wasting my breath by arguing with them. But real talk, in real life most of them wouldn't say half the stuff they are typing. And the few that would, would get punched in the mouth.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

Real talk Jay, on this site I feel like I always have to defend myself against someone trying to discredit what I've earned. I didn't post my mdapps for that. I posted it because I used mdapps to figure out which schools to apply to, what applicants did that worked, what didn't work etc. And I have the responsibility to post my story and hopefully help someone who is applying in 09'. But for so many sdners to disrespect is uncalled for. And it's not just me, a lot of URMs are going through it on this site. It's ridiculous man. I know I'm just wasting my breath by arguing with them. But real talk, in real life most of them wouldn't say half the stuff they are typing. And the few that would, would get punched in the mouth.

I WISH someone would approach me talking all this crap to my face. By and large, however, everyone is too cowardly to actually take responsibility and man up.

I have to be careful though and remind myself of my true motivations for going into medicine. I am not becoming a doctor to disprove everyone's preconceived notion(s) about me, but to treat my patients to the best of my ability. Nevertheless, don't test me.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

first of all, i never addressed you initially, and you were the one that questioned my statement that minorities get advantages. all of the convo before was addressing this, the advantages of minorities in the educational system. thats it. i agree with Berkman, just stop glorifying all your achievements and being cocky. i guess some humility and appreciation for the system would be a less controversial response instead of "i deserved this because i did all this and know all these special people". im not saying you didnt do awesome things, but all pre-meds do great things, im saying that you should just accept the fact being black helped. there is nothing wrong with that. why do you think you're so special and better than everyone else with all your activities and connections? whatever, im not going to argue anymore about how wrong YOUR assumptions are, and how you think MY assumptions are equally wrong, there is no end. i hope wherever you go, you do well and that your future USMLE scores, which largely determines your residency placement, will truly reflect your 'competency' as a physician (no racial help there).

im gone.

Your argument is oddly reminiscent to one asserted by a misguided fool..

I'm gone, too.

 

[DoctaJay]

Hey guys, its best not to play into that black man stereotype by hinting violence . Facts and logic (although usually useless in these threads) is the best course of action.

But you are right that no one will say anything to you directly. Instead they'll speak through your evals during 3rd year and in your LORs for resdiency (which is more unfortunate). That's why I wish everyone would just focus on being good doctors and not their classmates.

 

[AlexMorph]

Hey guys, its best not to play into that black man stereotype by hinting violence . Facts and logic (although usually useless in these threads) is the best course of action.

But you are right that no one will say anything to you directly. Instead they'll speak through your evals during 3rd year and in your LORs for resdiency (which is more unfortunate). That's why I wish everyone would just focus on being good doctors and not their classmates.

Are you saying your evals and LORs are worse because of the color of your skin?