Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You

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radiation

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…but what you can you do for your country

I think in a lot of ways SDN has served as the proverbial canary in the coalmine regarding many of the current issues we have in the field (at least in the US). I’ve always been impressed with the level of intellectual discourse and wide array of opinions on this board. In fact, I would posit that the unfiltered academic/private discussion on these boards likely exceeds that of any conference or communication medium in the field today.

With that said, I would like to see if we could sublimate the braintrust of the board to shift the seemingly singular focus on issues regarding residency overexpansion into something more useful and actionable. What can we do, on an individual and practice level, whether private or academic, to ensure the long-term success and longevity of the field?

To me, the single most important thing we can do to ensure our relevancy is to expand the uses and indications of radiation. And not just oncology, as many here of pointed out, benign indications are a huge opportunity for us to improve patient care and quality of life in a more cost efficient way than drug therapy. There are a number of things I think we can do in this regard (hopefully you guys can chime in with many more)

  • Design (and enroll! – especially for those in community centers) trials that expand the indications for radiation. Oligomets, SABR vs TORS, SABR vs wedge, etc. If you are community center with even a modicum of clinical trial resources, considering enrolling on one or all of these “potentially increase radiation utilization” trials. Think of each one as a blue chip stock that if it hits, will lead to future long term gains for both you and future generations.
  • Donate and volunteer for Radiation Oncology advocacy at Capitol Hill. Some of you guys hate ASTRO, I get it, but if not ASTRO find an organization like ACRO that does advocacy and volunteer to get our voices heard. If you don’t have time to volunteer, donate. Again, another form of long term investment in the field. If we had a stronger voice in CMS, strong chance that the current rules changes don’t happen.
  • Volunteer in hospital committees. These come in various shapes and sizes. There are cancer control committees, IRBs, etc. at all private and academic centers. These are constantly in turnover because quite frankly, they are boring and thankless jobs. Do them anyway, they increase visibility of the people in our field and you will be an a better position to advocate.
  • Speak up at tumor boards. Remind people of the standards of care involving radiation and always make yourself available to discuss radiation with pts, even if it is not something they will end up getting
The last point I will make in all of this is probably the most controversial. I think many will disagree but thats the beauty of this board. I think the argument has obviously been made that the rapid expansion of the field was done without consideration of the many downstream effects it would cause. I don’t debate this and sympathize with the current and last few graduating classes. It is a tough, tough market and the rapid overexpansion has created a lot of problems.

However, if one were to step back and look at the long, long-term health and viability of the field I think that at some point, expansion has to be part of the overarching goal. Quite simply, we need the human capital. I don't know the right answer on how to rationally do this without causing a job squeeze. But its clear at some point we would benefit from a larger specialty. We need more people to be innovative in generating new indications for radiation use. We need more people to advocate on our behalf in congress when they try to cut funding or abruptly change rules. We need larger departments to pushback when hospitals try to marginalize our specialty. We need more people to have negotiating power against insurance companies when they try to lower reimbursement. We need more people to run our trials. We need more people to be in the lab to find that holy grail radiosensitizer. Because I don’t think 100-200 people a year is going to cut it. Are we really going to put that trust on the shoulders of the 20-30 people each year that actually end up doing any meaningful research in our field? Can we really expect any significant innovation using that strategy? Because we are really squeezing the last drops we have on technological innovation. We can’t be comfortable with where we are now, otherwise we will be stuck in the same position – reacting to larger forces (CMS, etc) rather than the other way around.

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This is a beautiful post, @radiation. It's rich in content and extremely thoughtful. It is a good blueprint for how to advance the field on multiple levels, and despite the vociferous nature of some of the voices on SDN (including myself at times), it is gracious in extending an olive branch and at least recognizes that residency expansion is a concern.

However, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

We don't need more human capital, that is, more residents. Human capital can come from alliances with other specialties, it can come from alliances with researchers, clinical administrators, policymakers. 200 residents/year is a WASTE of human capital. During residency, these 200/year are providing coverage for the most part, easing the lives of attendings in a role that is at times secretarial and at times that of a midlevel NP/PA. After residency, it gets worse. PGY-5's are having job offers rescinded. To a casual and objective observer, it doesn't seem like human capital is what's needed. Unless, perhaps, graduating PGY-5's plan to take $65k/year research fellowship jobs in an MSKCC lab to find that holy grail radiosensitizer abscopal dust? That's not necessarily a bad role, but it's not the purpose of radiation oncology residency.

There are many more things to say, but it's simpler to piggyback on the OP's analogy.

The OP is calling for long-term investment. Like John F. Kennedy in the Space Age, or corporate labs like Xerox PARC, Bell Labs, Google X, these government and corporate initiatives set the foundation for entirely new tech/industries. Long-term investment is admirable, but it can only occur in a stable environment with a strong financial bottomline, whether it's for countries, companies, or individuals. We have to feel like the game is fair & equitable, and that hard work will be rewarded. In a world with a stable, healthy rad onc job market, I would MUCH rather be doing all the amazing things the OP's describing, instead of being a concerned SDN denizen.

I bet the PGY-5's from top 10-15 programs such as #womanwhowouldcurie have done good things for "the country", that is the field of radiation oncology. Yet, they've had job offers rescinded. They're not at the bottom of the 9th inning yet, but you have to wonder, is the problem that they're not doing enough for the field, or is the problem #200istoomany?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope that if we just do enough good things for the field, everything will work out, and I hope that #womanwhowouldcurie and others find a good fit before summer 2020.
 
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You're posting this in the wrong place. You seem to want more PhDs. We want less MDs. Not mutually exclusive positions. You should take this post to SCAROP and ask academic chairs to use departmental funds to support PhDs and labs while they get preliminary data for grants, and continue to support them even if the grants don't come. You want an academic mission. No one here will fight it. Certainly a big reason why academic centers are reimbursed more than the rest of us is to fund a robust academic mission rather than enrich hospital administrators. Just another place academic medicine has failed our field in the past decade.
 
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Agree, great post.

As you predict, I'll have to disagree with your belief that we need to increase human capital.

I'll equate this to an oft-used term in this field: what we're facing is not a lack of capital, but a maldistribution of resources.

For almost 20 years, Radiation Oncology has collected some of the most competitive people in all of medicine, which is, in general, a hyper-competitive field to begin with.

The problem is not the people. The problem is the culture. Compared to other specialties, we appear to be terrible advocates for ourselves. Most of us seek to keep our heads down and avoid conflict, climbing through the ranks like Littlefinger - "chaos is a ladder". Dissenting voices are crushed by the people in power, who have been in power for decades. I've seen this personally, and you can watch it unfold now on Twitter.

I agree with @Mandelin Rain, and the basic science component of this field is something I could talk about for around 400 hours (as I also have a PhD in a very relevant Oncology discipline).

The SDN "braintrust" is just a disparate group of mostly-anonymous folks from around the country. We're not actually an organization. The best we can do is maintain our opinions in real life, and speak up when we can.
 
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…but what you can you do for your country

I think in a lot of ways SDN has served as the proverbial canary in the coalmine regarding many of the current issues we have in the field (at least in the US). I’ve always been impressed with the level of intellectual discourse and wide array of opinions on this board. In fact, I would posit that the unfiltered academic/private discussion on these boards likely exceeds that of any conference or communication medium in the field today.

With that said, I would like to see if we could sublimate the braintrust of the board to shift the seemingly singular focus on issues regarding residency overexpansion into something more useful and actionable. What can we do, on an individual and practice level, whether private or academic, to ensure the long-term success and longevity of the field?

To me, the single most important thing we can do to ensure our relevancy is to expand the uses and indications of radiation. And not just oncology, as many here of pointed out, benign indications are a huge opportunity for us to improve patient care and quality of life in a more cost efficient way than drug therapy. There are a number of things I think we can do in this regard (hopefully you guys can chime in with many more)

  • Design (and enroll! – especially for those in community centers) trials that expand the indications for radiation. Oligomets, SABR vs TORS, SABR vs wedge, etc. If you are community center with even a modicum of clinical trial resources, considering enrolling on one or all of these “potentially increase radiation utilization” trials. Think of each one as a blue chip stock that if it hits, will lead to future long term gains for both you and future generations.
  • Donate and volunteer for Radiation Oncology advocacy at Capitol Hill. Some of you guys hate ASTRO, I get it, but if not ASTRO find an organization like ACRO that does advocacy and volunteer to get our voices heard. If you don’t have time to volunteer, donate. Again, another form of long term investment in the field. If we had a stronger voice in CMS, strong chance that the current rules changes don’t happen.
  • Volunteer in hospital committees. These come in various shapes and sizes. There are cancer control committees, IRBs, etc. at all private and academic centers. These are constantly in turnover because quite frankly, they are boring and thankless jobs. Do them anyway, they increase visibility of the people in our field and you will be an a better position to advocate.
  • Speak up at tumor boards. Remind people of the standards of care involving radiation and always make yourself available to discuss radiation with pts, even if it is not something they will end up getting
The last point I will make in all of this is probably the most controversial. I think many will disagree but thats the beauty of this board. I think the argument has obviously been made that the rapid expansion of the field was done without consideration of the many downstream effects it would cause. I don’t debate this and sympathize with the current and last few graduating classes. It is a tough, tough market and the rapid overexpansion has created a lot of problems.

However, if one were to step back and look at the long, long-term health and viability of the field I think that at some point, expansion has to be part of the overarching goal. Quite simply, we need the human capital. I don't know the right answer on how to rationally do this without causing a job squeeze. But its clear at some point we would benefit from a larger specialty. We need more people to be innovative in generating new indications for radiation use. We need more people to advocate on our behalf in congress when they try to cut funding or abruptly change rules. We need larger departments to pushback when hospitals try to marginalize our specialty. We need more people to have negotiating power against insurance companies when they try to lower reimbursement. We need more people to run our trials. We need more people to be in the lab to find that holy grail radiosensitizer. Because I don’t think 100-200 people a year is going to cut it. Are we really going to put that trust on the shoulders of the 20-30 people each year that actually end up doing any meaningful research in our field? Can we really expect any significant innovation using that strategy? Because we are really squeezing the last drops we have on technological innovation. We can’t be comfortable with where we are now, otherwise we will be stuck in the same position – reacting to larger forces (CMS, etc) rather than the other way around.

strongly agree with the four bullet points. If SDN raises the alarm but takes no action, it’s acknowledgement that academia holds the real power and are the decision makers in the field. If SDN members take action through any of those routes you’ll be taking back power from them. If SDN sits back while it sows chaos in the Match then we’re all just a bunch of loudly bleating sheep.
 
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strongly agree with the four bullet points. If SDN raises the alarm but takes no action, it’s acknowledgement that academia holds the real power and are the decision makers in the field. If SDN members take action through any of those routes you’ll be taking back power from them. If SDN sits back while it sows chaos in the Match then we’re all just a bunch of loudly bleating sheep.

Disagree, SDN will have done its job to wake the folks in academics, who are at steering wheel of all of this, up.

In fact has been doing its job the last several years, culminating in what we saw in the last match, and it will continue to do so
 
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Agree, great post.

As you predict, I'll have to disagree with your belief that we need to increase human capital.

I'll equate this to an oft-used term in this field: what we're facing is not a lack of capital, but a maldistribution of resources.

For almost 20 years, Radiation Oncology has collected some of the most competitive people in all of medicine, which is, in general, a hyper-competitive field to begin with.

The problem is not the people. The problem is the culture. Compared to other specialties, we appear to be terrible advocates for ourselves. Most of us seek to keep our heads down and avoid conflict, climbing through the ranks like Littlefinger - "chaos is a ladder". Dissenting voices are crushed by the people in power, who have been in power for decades. I've seen this personally, and you can watch it unfold now on Twitter.

I agree with @Mandelin Rain, and the basic science component of this field is something I could talk about for around 400 hours (as I also have a PhD in a very relevant Oncology discipline).

The SDN "braintrust" is just a disparate group of mostly-anonymous folks from around the country. We're not actually an organization. The best we can do is maintain our opinions in real life, and speak up when we can.

we are the bottomdwelling turtle catfishes of oncology, most rad oncs are afraid to speak up or stick neck out, get fingers burned. They are never invited to the table as a result. Chaos is indeed a ladder but in these times without feet, hard to even climb that! We are more like Hodor, can only hope to hold the door for so long before we get eaten alive by goons. Hodor was a one trick pony too. SAD
 
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This is a beautiful post, @radiation. It's rich in content and extremely thoughtful. It is a good blueprint for how to advance the field on multiple levels, and despite the vociferous nature of some of the voices on SDN (including myself at times), it is gracious in extending an olive branch and at least recognizes that residency expansion is a concern.

However, I'm going to respectfully disagree.

We don't need more human capital, that is, more residents. Human capital can come from alliances with other specialties, it can come from alliances with researchers, clinical administrators, policymakers. 200 residents/year is a WASTE of human capital. During residency, these 200/year are providing coverage for the most part, easing the lives of attendings in a role that is at times secretarial and at times that of a midlevel NP/PA. After residency, it gets worse. PGY-5's are having job offers rescinded. To a casual and objective observer, it doesn't seem like human capital is what's needed. Unless, perhaps, graduating PGY-5's plan to take $65k/year research fellowship jobs in an MSKCC lab to find that holy grail radiosensitizer abscopal dust? That's not necessarily a bad role, but it's not the purpose of radiation oncology residency.

There are many more things to say, but it's simpler to piggyback on the OP's analogy.

The OP is calling for long-term investment. Like John F. Kennedy in the Space Age, or corporate labs like Xerox PARC, Bell Labs, Google X, these government and corporate initiatives set the foundation for entirely new tech/industries. Long-term investment is admirable, but it can only occur in a stable environment with a strong financial bottomline, whether it's for countries, companies, or individuals. We have to feel like the game is fair & equitable, and that hard work will be rewarded. In a world with a stable, healthy rad onc job market, I would MUCH rather be doing all the amazing things the OP's describing, instead of being a concerned SDN denizen.

I bet the PGY-5's from top 10-15 programs such as #womanwhowouldcurie have done good things for "the country", that is the field of radiation oncology. Yet, they've had job offers rescinded. They're not at the bottom of the 9th inning yet, but you have to wonder, is the problem that they're not doing enough for the field, or is the problem #200istoomany?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope that if we just do enough good things for the field, everything will work out, and I hope that #womanwhowouldcurie and others find a good fit before summer 2020.

These are very good points, especially the points about human capital coming from outside the specialty. That is something I can fully get behind.

My main concern is watching other fields like medical oncology, ENT, Urology, Dermatology grow in number every year while we will likely now be forced (due to obvious economic reasons) to contract. Almost every other dominant field will continue to grow in number. So our relative representation (already very low) amongst all physicians will continue to shrink every year. 20 years from now, where will that lead us?
 
These are very good points, especially the points about human capital coming from outside the specialty. That is something I can fully get behind.

My main concern is watching other fields like medical oncology, ENT, Urology, Dermatology grow in number every year while we will likely now be forced (due to obvious economic reasons) to contract. Almost every other dominant field will continue to grow in number. So our relative representation (already very low) amongst all physicians will continue to shrink every year. 20 years from now, where will that lead us?
We simply need less clinicians to deliver radiation as we are able to deliver it more effectively and more quickly. This has, after all, been much of the focus of clinical research efforts in the specialty, over the years

@Mandelin Rain has the right idea about where the "human capital" should come from
 
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We simply need less clinicians to deliver radiation as we are able to deliver it more effectively and more quickly. This has, after all, been much of the focus of clinical research efforts in the specialty, over the years

@Mandelin Rain has the right idea about where the "human capital" should come from
I presented this scenario yesterday...

Ten years ago many rad oncs were giving 81/45 for prostate; 9 weeks of therapy. This would mean a doc/practice seeing 10 new prostate patients a week would have 90 patients under treatment, each day. Would be a two doc practice easy and they would be making about $20 million global.

Now we can do the same 9 week treatment in one day. And not only that you can easily design a system/throughput where you see/sim/treat same day. Thus what was once 90 patients/day under treatment is now 2 patients/day under treatment. With APM rates this practice will make about $12 million a year (and probably need to let one doc go).

That’s how compressible rad onc is right now at least in this one clinical scenario:
Patient load could be reduced 45-to-1.
 
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prostate SBRT planning in one day seems a bit unrealistic.
consult and sim same day, treatment next day is more realistic.
 
prostate SBRT planning in one day seems a bit unrealistic.
consult and sim same day, treatment next day is more realistic.
Would still mean 90/day -> 2/day. But already do this (sim, plan, treat on same day) for many frameless SRSs. No reason one couldn't go from first pixel contoured to good prostate SBRT plan in 1.5 hours. Once you show a machine 10,000 good contours/plans and let it do its A.I. thing, predict we will go from first pixel contoured to good SBRT plan in 1.5 seconds. Still will take a good 60 seconds (ha) for the human to spot-check the computer's work... but the day is coming.
 
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it really doesn’t matter. The overarching reality is that there will be significantly less pts on beam.


it doesn't really come up much but the ones that are actually royally ****ed more than the physicians are radiation therapists. their job is strictly tied to number on beam at any given time.

I wonder if they have societies or forums where this is discussed/a worry. because it absolutely should be.
 
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I’ve definitely thought about the RTTs as our numbers dip due to shorter and shorter treatment courses. No one is going to train in that to treat 7 patients over 3.5 hours per day. Can’t make a living.
 
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Yup, our city trains a lot and is super saturated. New grads work out in the boonies and wait for job openings in the city. A lot of them work part time at a couple places. Sounds familiar...
 
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These are very good points, especially the points about human capital coming from outside the specialty. That is something I can fully get behind.

My main concern is watching other fields like medical oncology, ENT, Urology, Dermatology grow in number every year while we will likely now be forced (due to obvious economic reasons) to contract. Almost every other dominant field will continue to grow in number. So our relative representation (already very low) amongst all physicians will continue to shrink every year. 20 years from now, where will that lead us?

Population growth isn't necessarily good, nor is population decline bad. In terms of jobs and employment opportunities, would you rather be a citizen of Singapore, whose population is in-between Los Angeles and NYC and has the lowest fertility rate in the world, or neighboring Indonesia, which is almost as populous at the USA?

The obsession with maximizing warm PGY-2 bodies will just lead to widespread famine a few years down the line.

SDN hyperbole and fear-mongering aside, and to answer your question, in 20 years our percentage as a total of all physicians will likely be lower than it is now. That's a good thing. It reflects our efficiency in delivering cancer cure & palliation, and the role of radiotherapy in oncology will almost certainly be the same as or greater than it is today.
 
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  • Design (and enroll! – especially for those in community centers) trials that expand the indications for radiation. Oligomets, SABR vs TORS, SABR vs wedge, etc. If you are community center with even a modicum of clinical trial resources, considering enrolling on one or all of these “potentially increase radiation utilization” trials. Think of each one as a blue chip stock that if it hits, will lead to future long term gains for both you and future generations.

Great post! Im an academic jr faculty that does clinical trials and Im very, very interested in this point and how to make it easier for community/PP rad oncs... specifically what are the barriers for community/PP that want to design and/or enroll in trials beyond "financial resources". Some PPs have been very successful with clinical trials, how can we get more? The benefits are obvious: more (most?) patients would then have easier access right there close to home and more ROs doing creative research to improve oncology care.

Would greatly appreciate hearing people's perspectives either privately through DM or public in this thread.
 
Great post! Im an academic jr faculty that does clinical trials and Im very, very interested in this point and how to make it easier for community/PP rad oncs... specifically what are the barriers for community/PP that want to design and/or enroll in trials beyond "financial resources". Some PPs have been very successful with clinical trials, how can we get more? The benefits are obvious: more (most?) patients would then have easier access right there close to home and more ROs doing creative research to improve oncology care.

And $$$$. Esp true on the med onc/pharma side in PP
 
Just go to any cooperative group meeting like NRG and talk to anyone there. They usually have whole sessions on this sort of thing as well.

Its a great meeting. Only been going for 1 year but haven't seen a session on this topic. Good idea on asking around, although many there are in academic institutions (but not all).
 
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