Asked to Voluntarily Withdraw and Looking for Advice for Next Steps

[YJ2022]

This thread just makes me wonder, can really anyone do medicine? OP I know you've worked hard to get to med school but it doesn't seem like you kept working hard once you got there. Are you absolutely sure you have to do this? I think you decided you wanted to do this and never considered alternatives.

If you're absolutely convinced this is the path for you, best of luck OP but it just feels like your character isn't suited well for medicine. Inability to stay awake for long periods of time, lack of emotional control, poor personal skills, and a strong self serving bias in retrospection. I will say that you don't seem like someone who gives up easily but at the same time neither do you come off as someone who is willing to put in the work needed to get where they want to be. I think you need to seriously look at yourself and ask, "would I want to be a patient of a doctor with my educational profile and history?" Like this isn't even an issue of feasibility at this point but maybe even ethics which I think might be why your preceptor refused to revise his eval.

I'm premed personally so take this with a grain of salt but your story has been a huge wake-up call for me that working hard won't stop for me the moment I get into med school.
Reading this thread gives me the impression that you care more about the status of medicine than treating patients but again that might just be me and I'm not even officially in the field of medicine.

I think it does take some work for someone to improve from failing every single test in his or her first month of medical school to a GPA of 3.60s (acknowledge that it is still not competitive but definitely not something that would lead to a MOU). I do admit that when I concentrate on something (e.g. Level 2), I tend to pay less attention to other things (e.g. assuring that I conact a specific faculty member every two weeks without reminders). I do not absolutely have to do medicine and the multiple alternatives I have tried part time but long term have altogether helped me a lot in terms of affording the costs of studying medicine alone in a foreign country. Still I found practicing certain form of medicine the most rewarding, stable, and feasible option (if doing it in China counts).

Thanks for the suggestions and wishes. In serious and as-objective-as-possible retrospection, prior to signing the MOU I could recall two acquitances (one nurse the other outside medical field) saying that I should consider being a PA or pharamcist instead. Other than those two, I have not met any individual throughout my life who states that I cannot become a qualified physician. At least according to the school, the phsycian who failed me insisted on using the F as a serious wake-up call that stimulates me to become the physician that he thinks best represents the school he and I both enrolled in, which is why he chose to make none of the evaluation visible to program directors on my dean's letter. Again I do not deny that I could sound more self-serving, defensive, and emotional than how I present myself in reality as an anonymous interenet user desperately struggling with a life-changing situation (again my sincere apologies for offending anybody and I truly respect anyone who can absolutely refrain from being self-serving, defensive, or emotional if the person were exactly in my shoes), or I just happened to neglect and forget any negative feedback until it hurts too much to do so.

Very glad that my story can be helpful for people, which is another reason why I continue this thread till now. Regarding status of medicine, I would say if there is no need to worry about taking care of my family, I am totally content with practicing medicine like a barefoot doctor in any place that needs and sustains me.

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[Ho0v-man]

Actions have consequences. You were on probation and didn’t do what you should to stay in school. People who are serious about being doctors do what they need to do to graduate. You didn’t.

You have weak medical knowledge. You’ve failed a licensing exam twice. You’re school basically doesn’t even care if you pass it on your third attempt.

You’re unprofessional. Most unprofessionalism threats in med school are BS. This isn’t. You can’t document accurately. You can’t be bothered to change your clothes after being told to do so multiple times despite having no financial constraints. You fell asleep during a patient encounter and the patient was another physician. You literally humiliated that preceptor.

You say that the preceptor wanted to fail you to wake you up and motivate you to improve. And that’s fine. But being put on probation should have already woke you up. But you were still ****ing around. That’s perfectly acceptable grounds for dismissal. You having DO next to your name would make other DOs like myself look bad.

But here’s the biggest problem. When you’re in med school, most of what you do doesn’t have a real impact on patient care. That changes about 6 weeks after you graduate. People will depend you and you haven’t demonstrated dependability. And you seem to lack the introspection necessary to realize this. Your school is afraid that if you graduate you’ll not follow through on your responsibilities and people will die. That’s my fear too.

FFS, you said your preceptor apparently praised you for being awake the rest of your rotation and you’re acting like it’s some kind of milestone achievement. Believe it or not, being conscious throughout the entire shift is kind of an understood bare minimum and not a goal that needs to be worked toward. When this happens in residency, patient care gets delayed or doesn’t happen. This is a big deal and you’re just making excuses.

You’re a 4th year. You’re supposed to be proving that you’re ready to be a doctor and you’re failing to do so in essentially every domain. When you’re put on probation you need to do your best to walk on water. But you’re not even doing the bare minimum.

You don’t deserve to be a doctor. Move on.

 

[Goro]

I feel emotionally drained and physically exhausted just reading this thread.

You too?

 

[ortnakas]

You too?

Third that motion.

 

[joey jake]

I feel sorry for OP. He would have benefitted a lot from reading Jordan Peterson. If he gets reinstated, he should read Peterson. OP would have avoided all this mess, imo.

 

[BobbyKoch]

I was in clinic with a patient today and my hand brushed the table causing one of my knuckles to crack. Instantly froze in fear and thought of this thread lol.

Sorry op, just having some fun at your expense. I wish you all the best. I suspect now that Jordan Peterson has been mentioned this thread will be locked shortly. 😂

 

[ucsdfootball]

Actions have consequences. You were on probation and didn’t do what you should to stay in school. People who are serious about being doctors do what they need to do to graduate. You didn’t.

You have weak medical knowledge. You’ve failed a licensing exam twice. You’re school basically doesn’t even care if you pass it on your third attempt.

You’re unprofessional. Most unprofessionalism threats in med school are BS. This isn’t. You can’t document accurately. You can’t be bothered to change your clothes after being told to do so multiple times despite having no financial constraints. You fell asleep during a patient encounter and the patient was another physician. You literally humiliated that preceptor.

You say that the preceptor wanted to fail you to wake you up and motivate you to improve. And that’s fine. But being put on probation should have already woke you up. But you were still ****ing around. That’s perfectly acceptable grounds for dismissal. You having DO next to your name would make other DOs like myself look bad.

But here’s the biggest problem. When you’re in med school, most of what you do doesn’t have a real impact on patient care. That changes about 6 weeks after you graduate. People will depend you and you haven’t demonstrated dependability. And you seem to lack the introspection necessary to realize this. Your school is afraid that if you graduate you’ll not follow through on your responsibilities and people will die. That’s my fear too.

FFS, you said your preceptor apparently praised you for being awake the rest of your rotation and you’re acting like it’s some kind of milestone achievement. Believe it or not, being conscious throughout the entire shift is kind of an understood bare minimum and not a goal that needs to be worked toward. When this happens in residency, patient care gets delayed or doesn’t happen. This is a big deal and you’re just making excuses.

You’re a 4th year. You’re supposed to be proving that you’re ready to be a doctor and you’re failing to do so in essentially every domain. When you’re put on probation you need to do your best to walk on water. But you’re not even doing the bare minimum.

You don’t deserve to be a doctor. Move on.

OP is actually a 5th year, having not matched last cycle.

 

[doctadank]

I feel sorry for OP. He would have benefitted a lot from reading Jordan Peterson. If he gets reinstated, he should read Peterson. OP would have avoided all this mess, imo.

Is this a meme? How would lobsterman have helped him?

Edit: OP it seems like you do legitimately regret the actions that got you to your situation and a lot of the people in this thread don't really buy it or sympathize with you because actions speak louder than words. I think the general consensus is that you realised your mistake too late to still be a doctor. I'm optimistic so I'm hoping this thread has changed you somewhat but I'm not sure how I feel about you being in charge of someone's health.
Thanks for being honest about this situation, for what that's worth. Not sure if this is historic or run of the mill on SDN but I personally won't forget this story considering all the wild things i learned about you in this thread. I wish this was a troll post so I could joke about this more readily but considering this is someone's lifelong dream going up in smokes I'll refrain from doing so out of respect.

 

[joey jake]

Is this a meme? How would lobsterman have helped him?

Edit: OP it seems like you do legitimately regret the actions that got you to your situation and a lot of the people in this thread don't really buy it or sympathize with you because actions speak louder than words. I think the general consensus is that you realised your mistake too late to still be a doctor. I'm optimistic so I'm hoping this thread has changed you somewhat but I'm not sure how I feel about you being in charge of someone's health.
Thanks for being honest about this situation, for what that's worth. Not sure if this is historic or run of the mill on SDN but I personally won't forget this story considering all the wild things i learned about you in this thread. I wish this was a troll post so I could joke about this more readily but considering this is someone's lifelong dream going up in smokes I'll refrain from doing so out of respect.

Not a meme. Both Peterson's books are great for people like OP. I've noticed that the OP's actions differ greatly from his words, and Peterson talks about this at great length. He provides solutions also. How to win friends and influence people would be useful.

I hope he gets reinstated. A lot of NPs and PAs and med students are worse than OP.

 

[Ho0v-man]

OP is actually a 5th year, having not matched last cycle.

Oh so it’s even worse than I thought. Gotcha. That’s even more red flags than I thought. This school is a lot more forgiving than mine was.

 

[ortnakas]

Oh so it’s even worse than I thought. Gotcha. That’s even more red flags than I thought. This school is a lot more forgiving than mine was.

My thoughts exactly. OP failed multiple COMATs, failed Level 2 twice, failed a rotation, and failed to follow the rules of the memorandum while on probation. A memorandum that apparently states the conseqence of not following it is expulsion without appeal. My alma mater would have been done long ago.

 

[Monkitty]

Actions have consequences. You were on probation and didn’t do what you should to stay in school. People who are serious about being doctors do what they need to do to graduate. You didn’t.

You have weak medical knowledge. You’ve failed a licensing exam twice. You’re school basically doesn’t even care if you pass it on your third attempt.

You’re unprofessional. Most unprofessionalism threats in med school are BS. This isn’t. You can’t document accurately. You can’t be bothered to change your clothes after being told to do so multiple times despite having no financial constraints. You fell asleep during a patient encounter and the patient was another physician. You literally humiliated that preceptor.

You say that the preceptor wanted to fail you to wake you up and motivate you to improve. And that’s fine. But being put on probation should have already woke you up. But you were still ****ing around. That’s perfectly acceptable grounds for dismissal. You having DO next to your name would make other DOs like myself look bad.

But here’s the biggest problem. When you’re in med school, most of what you do doesn’t have a real impact on patient care. That changes about 6 weeks after you graduate. People will depend you and you haven’t demonstrated dependability. And you seem to lack the introspection necessary to realize this. Your school is afraid that if you graduate you’ll not follow through on your responsibilities and people will die. That’s my fear too.

FFS, you said your preceptor apparently praised you for being awake the rest of your rotation and you’re acting like it’s some kind of milestone achievement. Believe it or not, being conscious throughout the entire shift is kind of an understood bare minimum and not a goal that needs to be worked toward. When this happens in residency, patient care gets delayed or doesn’t happen. This is a big deal and you’re just making excuses.

You’re a 4th year. You’re supposed to be proving that you’re ready to be a doctor and you’re failing to do so in essentially every domain. When you’re put on probation you need to do your best to walk on water. But you’re not even doing the bare minimum.

You don’t deserve to be a doctor. Move on.

Thank you so much for saying all this, especially the bolded.

OP, I'm a new intern and the bolded part REALLY matters. I had my first 12hour call shift a few weeks ago and it was a hell of a wake up call. Suddenly my actions could directly hurt or help a patient. As a medical student you do not realize this signficance. You always have multiple layers protecting you. When you are an intern many of those layers are stripped away. You have your midlevels and upperlevels but you are expected to be able to function independently at a level most medical students never do.

What I have heard hear makes me fearful for you to have that responsibility. People are laughing off the professionalism things but when you walk into a room as an intern EVERY nurse, PA, NP, the patient, and family member is going to be looking to you to take charge, because physicians are leaders. If you come off as unprofessional in your actions (falling asleep) or appearance (dishealved) you are putting that patient at risk because your team is not going to trust you. Likewise your medical knowledge is a liability. Prescribing an H1 blockers vs an H2 blocker is a huge mess up, especially if the H1 is a 1st generation and the patient is elderly. Yes drugs and their names are confusing but as a physician we just gotta know that stuff or be able to find the answer quickly (tip for others: put your hospital pharmacy on speed dial). Your performance on your exams and demonstrated knowledge in clinic shows that you aren't at the level of knowledge needed to be an intern.

Your school and preceptor would be doing you no favors by letting you graduate just because you are so close. They all recognize that as you are now you are a liability and likely to be dangerous to patients. They gave you ample opportunity to remedy this situation. Schools don't want to dismiss students as it is lost revenue and looks bad on them. Instead of doing what you had to save your career your lost your last shot. I'm sorry that this happened as we all know the struggle we go through to be a physician. However, actions have consequences. Begging for mercy is pointless. You are not equipped at this time to be a functioning physician.

If you are truly invested in being a physician then your best bet might be to pursue your degree in China. From reading your previous post it sounds like practicing there would be suboptimal for you, but ask yourself if practicing medicine is your goal or practicing medicine in the US is your goal. The latter is impossible at this point but you still probably have the opportunity to practice medicine back in China.

Finally, for anyone else reading this, if you are having trouble reach out early. An LOA is nothing when it comes to applying for residency whereas a string of professionalism violations are failed exams/rotations is most definitely. I took one after my father passed away and no one batted an eye at it during interviews. Life happens and that's what LOAs are for. Physicians are problem solvers and if you can't solve your own problems how can we expect you to solve your patients'?

I wish you luck in your life OP and hope you find happiness and success in something.

 

[Browns99]

Not a meme. Both Peterson's books are great for people like OP. I've noticed that the OP's actions differ greatly from his words, and Peterson talks about this at great length. He provides solutions also. How to win friends and influence people would be useful.

I hope he gets reinstated. A lot of NPs and PAs and med students are worse than OP.

So, because NPs and PAs have done worse, we should just throw the OP a bone, regardless of his unprofessionalism and him exhibiting behaviors not acceptable in medicine....Would you want the OP treating a family member of yours? SMH that the OPs behavior is one that would be deemed, well, not so bad.........

 

[StraightOuttaNightShift]

I should preface the following by saying I'm a nurse who is applying to med school. As such, I cannot fully appreciate your struggles and my input may be of little value. But I hope that you will at least take some of this advice under consideration.

Though I am sorry you are going through this experience, your failure to follow the rules which appear clearly outlined in the MOU, as well as the clinical failure, are concerning. I am doing you a disservice by stating otherwise, so I will not sugar coat this... your inability to abide by the conditions of the MOU make me, and I would imagine your school, question your desire to be a physician. Your failed clinical and exam, make me question your ability.

Medicine does not somehow become easier simply because you have moved from being a med student to a resident. The microscope you will find yourself under, and the amount of stress, intensifies. You appear to be meeting current challenges with some degree of implosion, self sabotage and denial. You had a handful of early successes which appear to make you (unreasonably) believe you are suited to be a physician. You seem to support this argument by stating you cleared some early med school hurdles successfully, and by suggesting that only one nurse and a person outside of medicine, encouraged you to consider being a pharmacist or a PA instead. You reported that the nurse who provided the advice was merely an acquaintance. This is rhetorical but was this during a conversation in which you asked for advice? If the advice was unsolicited, this is telling. It's an evaluation of your ability by someone who would expect you to rise to the occasion as a clinical leader, and they do not find you capable of doing so. As mentioned earlier, absolutely every single (competent) nurse and other clinical staff in the room during a patient interaction, does look to the doc for guidance. Docs are supposed to take the lead, and I not only expect this, but respect it.

I believe you expressed interest in IM. You also mentioned when you're paying attention to one thing, you tend to pay less attention to other things. There are a ton of distractors in medicine. Being so fixated on X, doesn't allow you to see Y... and this can lead to patient harm. Your admission to having the inability to focus on numerous things simultaneously, makes it less surprising that you have difficulty with application of clinical knowledge. You are unable to see the bigger picture. And I suspect this is happening now as well.

I appreciate you have more clinical knowledge than I do. But if you are unable to apply that knowledge, you might as well have me running the show. I assure you this would be terrifying. Everyone gets a CT with contrast, because if I don't know what is going on, just add contrast and put patients through the truth tube. I'm an ED nurse so being routinely confused is simply Tuesday. Also add protonix because everyone seems to order that, which makes it a solid choice. This isn't meant to be flippant but add some levity.

If the school felt there was any other option, that would have been proposed. Your institution showed their commitment and investment in you, when they placed you on probation and gave you a chance at redemption. You were unsuccessful in this attempt. You appear so wedded to this path you may be unable to see other options. This preoccupation with getting out of medical school, in the setting of failing Level 2 twice and potentially a 3rd, a failed rotation, not abiding by the rules while on probation and some questionable clinical judgment, is unfortunate. I'm not sure you have a plan for what comes after medical school. Even if you are able to pass your remaining exams and match, what makes you feel as though you will be successful in a residency program? Time for some soul searching and to be brutally honest with yourself about your capabilities.

Enjoying medicine does not mean you have to be a physician. There are numerous other avenues and it's time to pursue them. I wish you well in your future endeavors.

 

[YJ2022]

I should preface the following by saying I'm a nurse who is applying to med school. As such, I cannot fully appreciate your struggles and my input may be of little value. But I hope that you will at least take some of this advice under consideration.

Though I am sorry you are going through this experience, your failure to follow the rules which appear clearly outlined in the MOU, as well as the clinical failure, are concerning. I am doing you a disservice by stating otherwise, so I will not sugar coat this... your inability to abide by the conditions of the MOU make me, and I would imagine your school, question your desire to be a physician. Your failed clinical and exam, make me question your ability.

Medicine does not somehow become easier simply because you have moved from being a med student to a resident. The microscope you will find yourself under, and the amount of stress, intensifies. You appear to be meeting current challenges with some degree of implosion, self sabotage and denial. You had a handful of early successes which appear to make you (unreasonably) believe you are suited to be a physician. You seem to support this argument by stating you cleared some early med school hurdles successfully, and by suggesting that only one nurse and a person outside of medicine, encouraged you to consider being a pharmacist or a PA instead. You reported that the nurse who provided the advice was merely an acquaintance. This is rhetorical but was this during a conversation in which you asked for advice? If the advice was unsolicited, this is telling. It's an evaluation of your ability by someone who would expect you to rise to the occasion as a clinical leader, and they do not find you capable of doing so. As mentioned earlier, absolutely every single (competent) nurse and other clinical staff in the room during a patient interaction, does look to the doc for guidance. Docs are supposed to take the lead, and I not only expect this, but respect it.

I believe you expressed interest in IM. You also mentioned when you're paying attention to one thing, you tend to pay less attention to other things. There are a ton of distractors in medicine. Being so fixated on X, doesn't allow you to see Y... and this can lead to patient harm. Your admission to having the inability to focus on numerous things simultaneously, makes it less surprising that you have difficulty with application of clinical knowledge. You are unable to see the bigger picture. And I suspect this is happening now as well.

I appreciate you have more clinical knowledge than I do. But if you are unable to apply that knowledge, you might as well have me running the show. I assure you this would be terrifying. Everyone gets a CT with contrast, because if I don't know what is going on, just add contrast and put patients through the truth tube. I'm an ED nurse so being routinely confused is simply Tuesday. Also add protonix because everyone seems to order that, which makes it a solid choice. This isn't meant to be flippant but add some levity.

If the school felt there was any other option, that would have been proposed. Your institution showed their commitment and investment in you, when they placed you on probation and gave you a chance at redemption. You were unsuccessful in this attempt. You appear so wedded to this path you may be unable to see other options. This preoccupation with getting out of medical school, in the setting of failing Level 2 twice and potentially a 3rd, a failed rotation, not abiding by the rules while on probation and some questionable clinical judgment, is unfortunate. I'm not sure you have a plan for what comes after medical school. Even if you are able to pass your remaining exams and match, what makes you feel as though you will be successful in a residency program? Time for some soul searching and to be brutally honest with yourself about your capabilities.

Enjoying medicine does not mean you have to be a physician. There are numerous other avenues and it's time to pursue them. I wish you well in your future endeavors.

"This" was during a conversation when I asked for advice as I did not achieve admission after applying for medical schools for the first time.

Thanks for the wishes and hope you best of luck on your application.

 

[joey jake]

I read the story of another guy who was dismissed from an MD school in the 3rd or 4th year (I forget), and then went to the Caribbean and then matched into general surgery.

 

[Goro]

I read the story of another guy who was dismissed from an MD school in the 3rd or 4th year (I forget), and then went to the Caribbean and then matched into general surgery.

Yeah, these types of stories are like reading about people who won the Lotto.

Just keep these in mind:
Definition of outlier
a statistical observation that is markedly different in value from the others of the sample.
Values that are outliers give disproportionate weight to larger over smaller values.

Zebra (medicine)​

Zebra is the American medical slang for arriving at a surprising, often exotic, medical diagnosis when a more commonplace explanation is more likely. It is shorthand for the aphorism coined in the late 1940s by Theodore Woodward, professor at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, who instructed his medical interns: "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, don't expect to see a zebra."

From StraightOuttaNightShift's post above:

Though I am sorry you are going through this experience, your failure to follow the rules which appear clearly outlined in the MOU, as well as the clinical failure, are concerning. I am doing you a disservice by stating otherwise, so I will not sugar coat this... your inability to abide by the conditions of the MOU make me, and I would imagine your school, question your desire to be a physician. Your failed clinical and exam, make me question your ability.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I read the story of another guy who was dismissed from an MD school in the 3rd or 4th year (I forget), and then went to the Caribbean and then matched into general surgery.

Link?

My strong suspicion is that there were circumstances that do not apply to the OP, and/or it was a long time ago when matching from the Caribbean was more common, and/or it was a surgical prelim. But I'm happy to see the link and be proven wrong.