Asked to write my own LOR by DO

[AwayFromReality]

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[mk04447]

He may be testing you, that's what I would do. Write a passionate clear letter, do the work for him. You were probably given a gift.

 

[Grace184]

I had to write one of my own LORs by my own professors too. I was honest, and rated myself according to what I thought what was appropriate. I included my activities I had completed while on rotation with her, highlighted my positive traits etc, but definitely didn't make it over the top. I sent it to her to editing and revision and she sent it back and I was stunned to see how much higher she rated me, added things I didn't include, added such positive notes etc.

My point is, I think is if you keep it honest and that if you truly exceeded expectations you DO will revise to show this. No one likes to see on over the top cocky letter. (Not saying your going to do that). Writing your own letter is definitely a gift and a chance to highlight qualities you brought to your experience that make you unique.

 

[AwayFromReality]

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[samac]

I don't think adcoms typically want to help you cheat the system by helping you write your own LOR...

 

[AwayFromReality]

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[mk04447]

I don't think adcoms typically want to help you cheat the system by helping you write your own LOR...

This isn't dishonest or unethical. This is very common in many professions, doctors/professors are often busy. In some cases too busy to give someone assistance they'd like to help out. I think it speaks a lot about the OP. In the end the reviewer approves, signs, and uploads the letter not the student. How is this any different than providing talking points via a PS or CV? Ultimately, if you don't know what's going into a letter of recommendation, I think you've asked someone you don't know we'll enough.

 

[Gandyy]

Another unfair part of this whole process.

 

[mk04447]

Another unfair part of this whole process.

I'm not even sure why you needed to say this here. Being difficult does not make something unfair. Nobody is oppressing you, start blaming yourself for your failures and maybe you'll have less of them. Millennials.

 

[Promethean]

I was offered the opportunity to write my own letter by a couple of doctors. I thanked them for their time and said that I appreciated their busy schedules, that I probably had enough letters as it was, yadda yadda.

I am a bit old fashioned, but I believe that there is something important about the tradition of requesting letters of support from those who have mentored you. It is a way they can directly participate in the foundation of your career, and it helps establish the network of cooperation and collaboration that is so essential to professional practice. It is only a tired formality if you make it one.

If this is a doc that you just shadowed for a few hours, then probably writing your own is the way to go, because what could they possibly have to say about someone they know so superficially... but I think that the quality of any letter that you write on your own behalf, even after it is edited, will be significantly less than a letter written from the heart of someone you have deeply impressed and who knows you well. If you don't have other options, you gotta use what you can get, I guess. I just don't see it as the "gift" that others do. More like a consolation prize.

 

[Gandyy]

I'm not even sure why you needed to say this here. Being difficult does not make something unfair. Nobody is oppressing you, start blaming yourself for your failures and maybe you'll have less of them. Millennials.

Whoa. Chill out. Any mistakes I've made I do own up to.

You sound like a child raging on a video game forum. Usually they toss around insults like "millennial" without knowing the background of the anonymous user they are verbally assaulting.

No, writing letters for yourself seems unethical and unfair for obvious reasons. I mean it doesn't need an explanation as to why does it?

 

[mk04447]

Whoa. Chill out. Any mistakes I've made I do own up to.

You sound like a child raging on a video game forum. Usually they toss around insults like "millennial" without knowing the background of the anonymous user they are verbally assaulting.

No, writing letters for yourself seems unethical and unfair for obvious reasons. I mean it doesn't need an explanation as to why does it?

Re-read your post. Sounds like whining to me. It's good that you guys have started to realize the millennial label isn't anything to be proud of; maybe there is hope for some of you yet.

 

[Gandyy]

Re-read your post. Sounds like whining to me. It's good that you guys have started to realize the millennial label isn't anything to be proud of; maybe there is hope for some of you yet.

You sound extremely conceited.

 

[mk04447]

You sound extremely conceited.

I can appreciate that. Good luck.

 

[mathnerd88]

This isn't dishonest or unethical. This is very common in many professions, doctors/professors are often busy. In some cases too busy to give someone assistance they'd like to help out. I think it speaks a lot about the OP. In the end the reviewer approves, signs, and uploads the letter not the student. How is this any different than providing talking points via a PS or CV? Ultimately, if you don't know what's going into a letter of recommendation, I think you've asked someone you don't know we'll enough.

It isn't dishonest if you wrote on AACOMAS that you did NOT waive your right to see the letter.

However, it IS dishonest and unethical to lie on your application and write that you've never seen the letter when you in fact, wrote most of it. I think it is fine to write your own LOR and signed by another when it comes to job references and such, but not on an application which clearly asks you if you've read it or not. (Or in the case of AACOMAS "access to it")

 

[Promethean]

It isn't dishonest if you wrote on AACOMAS that you did NOT waive your right to see the letter.

However, it IS dishonest and unethical to lie on your application and write that you've never seen the letter when you in fact, wrote most of it. I think it is fine to write your own LOR and signed by another when it comes to job references and such, but not on an application which clearly asks you if you've read it or not. (Or in the case of AACOMAS "access to it")

Full agreement.

Even with someone else editing it, if I were an adcom and I got the slightest sense that someone had written their own letter, I would probably reject them just for that. It isn't as if there isn't a line of equally qualified folks who were able to find people willing to support their application. If adcoms wanted several personal statements from you, they'd ask for that. Recommendations provide some degree of protection against students just lying and making up experiences that make them look better. They have to be able to convince at least a handful of people who actually interacted with them over a period of time that they are legit and worth supporting.

The whole point of having these people write letters about you is that they are supposed to have some objective insight into your potential as a student that the adcoms cannot glean from your own writing about yourself. They are extending trust in other professionals, that they will provide a meaningful evaluation. Writing your own and pretending that it came from someone else, just because they cleaned it up a little, is at least ethically questionable, if not totally dishonest. It violates the spirit and intent of this component of the application.

 

[Promethean]

Re-read your post. Sounds like whining to me. It's good that you guys have started to realize the millennial label isn't anything to be proud of; maybe there is hope for some of you yet.

I find it interesting that you throw around the millennial label as if it were an epithet, a grave insult...

...but your support for the idea of writing one's own letter is exactly the kind of shortcut that I would associate with this younger generation which lacks experience with tradition.

There are legitimate things to criticize about millennials. I've certainly done so before. But if you find fault with them for no other reason than that they are younger than you, and if you aren't setting a better example yourself... well, you come across as just another crusty old guy yelling about loud music and your lawn.

Maybe lead by example, demonstrate the change you want to see, etc. Give better counsel and maybe the youths will want to emulate you.

 

[Gandyy]

I find it interesting that you throw around the millennial label as if it were an epithet, a grave insult...

...but your support for the idea of writing one's own letter is exactly the kind of shortcut that I would associate with this younger generation which lacks experience with tradition.

There are legitimate things to criticize about millennials. I've certainly done so before. But if you find fault with them for no other reason than that they are younger than you, and if you aren't setting a better example yourself... well, you come across as just another crusty old guy yelling about loud music and your lawn.

Maybe lead by example, demonstrate the change you want to see, etc. Give better counsel and maybe the youths will want to emulate you.

I probably will not want to ever emulate him. Just a wild guess.

 

[deleted158872]

dang, i wish my recommenders had given me the opportunity to write my own LORs 😀

 

[Grace184]

dang, i wish my recommenders had given me the opportunity to write my own LORs 😀

It's kind of like when a professor asks "what kind of grade do you think you should get? Why?"
Mine literally revised it to the point it wasn't mine anymore, because she upgraded things so much and added things I didn't know about (patients asking about me years later) and rating me in a certain percent of students. I waived my right to see the final draft because I knew she would edit the hell out of it (that's how she is lol). I received the edited portions embedded into the body of an email after the letter had been submitted.

When I was a professor, I would often have students write their LORs before I edited the final draft. I wanted to know how honestly they rated their performance. I don't find that unethical. I wanted to see what they learned and the skills they used that would take them further into their career.

Edit: plus when you're bombarded with LOR requests and you still have to get your own work done, it's a lot easier to edit than to use a generic skeleton letter, and I'm sure my students appreciate that

 

[Gandyy]

While this exercise is difficult, realize that it gets more common the further you go. I have written all my own letters for the last 5-6 years. Best to get used to it now.

I've also found that when I need a letter from someone who is more "prestigous" (busy), offering to write the first draft myself makes them much more willing to give it to me. "Review, revise, and sign" is much easier for people than writing something from scratch. Plus, you may have a better idea of what needs to be emphasized in the letter than they do.

Always a wise answer. I can agree but only if the individual does not hit the "waive my right to see the letter". I doubt every pre-med that writes their own letters follows this.

Edit: Disclaimer: Not saying that anyone in this thread is writing their own letters AND also hitting the "waive my right to see this letter" checkbox.

 

[mk04447]

Too many people who can't read to quote, so I'll just throw this out there. Waiving your right to see a LOR is different than not knowing what's in it. You aren't violating anything by writing it, you aren't doing the final edit, nor do you know what was actually submitted.

 

[StudyLater]

Loophole: Waive your right to see the revised letter, and classify the current letter as a personal advocation your writer can use to better evaluate you. In the end, you've accomplished your goal, and you have successfully done as required: you've waived your right to see the document that gets sent in to AACOMAS.

Damn, I should have been prelaw. 😉

To answer your question though, why not make it DO specific? Unless you're planning to use that letter for MD schools as well, I don't know why you wouldn't - it could only help you when applying to DO schools. It's like getting a letter of rec for a seminary and asking, "Is it appropriate to talk about my love of God in my LOR?" Why would talking about DO-related goals/qualities hurt you for applying to a DO school?

The whole point of having these people write letters about you is that they are supposed to have some objective insight into your potential as a student

Unfortunately you don't get graded in shadowing. About the only thing they can evaluate you on is your behavior with patients and your questions.

 

[mathnerd88]

Too many people who can't read to quote, so I'll just throw this out there. Waiving your right to see a LOR is different than not knowing what's in it. You aren't violating anything by writing it, you aren't doing the final edit, nor do you know what was actually submitted.

Unfortunately, while true, you still know that some of the content you did write will end up in that letter. There's no other reason why someone would ask you to write your own letter.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[mk04447]

Unfortunately, while true, you still know that some of the content you did write will end up in that letter. There's no other reason why someone would ask you to write your own letter.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Duh... and... So?

 

[StudyLater]

Unfortunately, while true, you still know that some of the content you did write will end up in that letter. There's no other reason why someone would ask you to write your own letter.

You don't know that whatsoever if you are waiving your right to see the letter before it goes in. The letter the DO sends in and your "letter" are not the same letter! You can waive your right to see the DO's letter, absolutely. There is no guarantee at all that the DO wouldn't write something terrible in there, or wouldn't just redo the whole thing. So the level of trust provided is still equal, and the integrity of the process is not compromised. It's the equivalent of providing your PS so the person can get to know your personal qualities a little better. The DO can do whatever he pleases from the point you send in your letter to the point that he sends in his.

 

[Gandyy]

Ugh I"m done with this asinine thread.

 

[mathnerd88]

You don't know that whatsoever if you are waiving your right to see the letter before it goes in. The letter the DO sends in and your "letter" are not the same letter! You can waive your right to see the DO's letter, absolutely. There is no guarantee at all that the DO wouldn't write something terrible in there, or wouldn't just redo the whole thing. So the level of trust provided is still equal, and the integrity of the process is not compromised. It's the equivalent of providing your PS so the person can get to know your personal qualities a little better. The DO can do whatever he pleases from the point you send in your letter to the point that he sends in his.

So...why can't you provide your PS instead of you writing your own letter which he edits?

For example, my health committee asks every one of us to write an autobiography of ourselves for them to write about in their letter. Then, they interview you and then write a letter based on those. They don't ask us to write our own letters of recommendation and which they edit to submit for schools.

Still isn't clearcut to me, and it provides an unfair advantage to the student because the student starts including things in the letter that is probably different than what the physician knows about you.

I agree you're not technically reading the final letter, but it is obvious what most of the letter will include. If the physician is already too lazy to write it (by asking you to write your own letter,) he/she is probably going to be too lazy to rework everything you've written. Editing takes longer than writing a whole new one in many cases.

The whole point of this LOR is to paint an objective picture from an outside source without any influence from you.

 

[StudyLater]

Still isn't clearcut to me, and it provides an unfair advantage to the student because the student starts including things in the letter that is probably different than what the physician knows about you.
....
I agree you're not technically reading the final letter, but it is obvious what most of the letter will include.

The physician can't know much about you from the start, which is why it is commonly considered good practice to provide them with some sort of info for a letter like this. The common questions I've received from physicians are the typical "What school/what year/what med school you wanna go to/where you from/why medicine?" type questions and not much beyond that besides maybe a research offer here and there. We're not sitting down having coffee and getting to know each other; they're in the middle of doing their job. Our part as students in this bring-your-premed-to-work scenario is to ask worthwhile questions and absorb as much as we can from them. The situation isn't centered around us; we're not really showcasing ourselves beyond our ability not to be a pain in the ass to have around. We're lucky they even responded to our e-mails to begin with. They really don't know us in a way that they can easily and favorably illustrate. They can't give adcoms a story about some amazing instance of compassion or anything of that sort. It's hard to take an active role in the shadowing process beyond asking the physician questions. Sometimes I'm really burning to ask the patient some questions as well (I might even have been able to: they commonly think I am a resident), but I know it could come off disrespectful to the physician who is running the visit, not to mention I don't even know if it is legal/ethical in that scenario (probably not). My point is, you can't do some amazing thing or showcase some amazing qualities during this process that the physician can write about. You can only show them you are attentive and know to behave in these various scenarios. Sometimes they actually can be decently impressed by just this (that you're not freaking out over blood, for example), but that's not necessarily enough to write a letter. You've got to provide them with something to help them define who you are to the adcom. I believe it is more the fact that, through developing a relationship with this medical professional, they are, of their own accord, willing to help you - that in and of itself should speak volumes.

The whole point of this LOR is to paint an objective picture from an outside source without any influence from you.

If you want it to be objective, the letter would be about one sentence: "She listened well, behaved amicably and compassionately, and asked questions that indicated a strong attentiveness to the patients' respective pathologies."

All you're proving here is you're compassionate/have an interest in medicine enough to where you want to know what it is about and that you're not scared of blood/urine/spit/feces/etc. What more can they say about you without additional info?

They have to have influence from you, by the way (right right, I know what you meant; I'm just saying), to write this thing in any sort of a personal way

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

OP. Go for it. Brag about yourself and make it as amazing as possible. Not everybody has the same opportunities in this app game so you gotta take full advantage!

haters gonna hate

 

[mathnerd88]

OP. Go for it. Brag about yourself and make it as amazing as possible. Not everybody has the same opportunities in this app game so you gotta take full advantage!

haters gonna hate

Not hating. Bragging about yourself is not a good idea in a LOR. Adcoms will be able to tell it is fake. There is a certain subtlety you have to write when you write your own LOR.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Nah man. I'm sure if he adds he was able to help those in comas wake up and assisted in open-heart transplants in the hospitals while he was shadowing it will look freaking awesome! Go for it OP!!!! WHOO! YOU GOT ME ALL RILED UP! IMA GO OUTSIDE AND SAVE A FREAKING BABY OR TWO! LETSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Gandyy]

Nah man. I'm sure if he adds he was able to help those in comas wake up and assisted in open-heart transplants in the hospitals while he was shadowing it will look freaking awesome! Go for it OP!!!! WHOO! YOU GOT ME ALL RILED UP! IMA GO OUTSIDE AND SAVE A FREAKING BABY OR TWO! LETSSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I am more and more inclined to not believe you about your "list" after every post you make.