Asking for perspective, unusual non-trad, red flags

[IschemicBrain]

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[gyngyn]

All accredited medical schools (DO and MD) are more than decent.
Please calculate your AMCAS (and AACOMAS?) gpa's using the links found on the front page of "What Are My Chances" in the sticky entitled "read this before posting."

 

[caffeinemia]

I don't get why I've repeatedly seen this mentality of "DO is not an option for me." Somehow, failure to get any degree is a better option?

I sympathize with your tough life. It's not fair. After all is said and done, you're effectively a pre-med beggar and you are sounding awfully choose-y. Your last line, as it stands without further explanation, stinks of snobbery -- as if you're too good for DO. You aren't - despite your stellar performance the second time around.

 

[kraskadva]

From your wall of text, I'm seeing GPA redemption (eyeballing your numbers I'm guessing a cumulative average in the 3.1-3.2 range), bootstrapping URM, and teaching experience in the plus column. MCAT untaken, but solid preparation.
What I'm not seeing is volunteering or clinical experience, neither of which are optional in this process. Being a patient, while acceptable as an impetus to pursue medicine, is not sufficient to show that you know what you're getting into from a future doctor's perspective.

Other people have gotten in with similar backgrounds (see the non-trad forum for examples), but you either left out important bits, or you still need to take care of them. And as the others above have said, you can't afford to turn your nose up at DO, especially since they're more likely to reward reinvention. I don't know what it is you believe about DO that's turning you off, but it really is essentially the same as MD and becoming more so every year.

 

[IschemicBrain]

n/t

 

[gyngyn]

I acknowledge and respect what accreditation means; acceptance at almost any medical school would be a dream come true...

With all appropriate humility, genuflection, etc, not all medical schools are equal to all people. That means different things to different people (countless variables). Of course...?
Otherwise, none of the multitudes would be biting their nails as they ask for feedback on this forum (myself very much included). If they were, a great deal of the consternation here would evaporate in an instant (as, I suspect, would the bulk of all posts).

The "No DO" mentality is also fairly straightforward.
DO is not MD. They are two different things. They are not the same, though they typically fulfill very similar roles. No doubt there are many DOs who are, by some metric, superior healthcare providers than many MDs. Obviously it says nothing about any other DO, but the DO I worked for was a pernicious, ignorant man who preyed upon people's fears and promulgated worthless pseudoscience to fill his pockets. His extreme wealth proves that DO is no obstacle to >=MD income (of course).

I initially wanted to be an MD-PhD via MSTP. I still do, but conceding that MSTP is as realistic for me as a trip to the moon, I would do the PhD later in my career.

The reason I don't want to be a DO is because it does not fit the specific goals I had in mind when I decided to go back to school to become a physician. Research + hands-on work as a clinician.
I don't want to be an MD because I want a job or because I'm looking for a career where I can wake up clicking my heels every morning while I tell people that I can't believe they pay me for this. I want to be an MD because I'm convinced (rightly or not) that I can make a difference; in fact, that I can do BETTER than the aspiring MD whose spot I'll have filled. It's not because I think I'm superman, it's because I see and appreciate things that they either don't know or care (sufficiently) about, and that unique perspective represents an opportunity to save real human lives. I do not be in the same position to leverage that perspective as a DO.

If not MD, then PhD and try med school again afterward. ....but for all I know, I may change my tune. Nothing is set in stone.



How are previous semesters delineated? My first Bachelor's was 10 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, those grades should count for nothing. I'm not the same person (I'm just living with the consequences of his choices).

If you use the sticky, we will be better able to advise you.

 

[Mad Jack]

I acknowledge and respect what accreditation means; acceptance at almost any medical school would be a dream come true...

With all appropriate humility, genuflection, etc, not all medical schools are equal to all people. That means different things to different people (countless variables). Of course...?
Otherwise, none of the multitudes would be biting their nails as they ask for feedback on this forum (myself very much included). If they were, a great deal of the consternation here would evaporate in an instant (as, I suspect, would the bulk of all posts).

The "No DO" mentality is also fairly straightforward.
DO is not MD. They are two different things. They are not the same, though they typically fulfill very similar roles. No doubt there are many DOs who are, by some metric, superior healthcare providers than many MDs. Obviously it says nothing about any other DO, but the DO I worked for was a pernicious, ignorant man who preyed upon people's fears and promulgated worthless pseudoscience to fill his pockets. His extreme wealth proves that DO is no obstacle to >=MD income (of course).

I initially wanted to be an MD-PhD via MSTP. I still do, but conceding that MSTP is as realistic for me as a trip to the moon, I would do the PhD later in my career.

The reason I don't want to be a DO is because it does not fit the specific goals I had in mind when I decided to go back to school to become a physician. Research + hands-on work as a clinician.
I don't want to be an MD because I want a job or because I'm looking for a career where I can wake up clicking my heels every morning while I tell people that I can't believe they pay me for this. I want to be an MD because I'm convinced (rightly or not) that I can make a difference; in fact, that I can do BETTER than the aspiring MD whose spot I'll have filled. It's not because I think I'm superman, it's because I see and appreciate things that they either don't know or care (sufficiently) about, and that unique perspective represents an opportunity to save real human lives. I do not think I would be in the same position to leverage that perspective as a DO (but maybe I'm wrong?).

If not MD, then PhD and try med school again afterward. ....but for all I know, I may change my tune. Nothing is set in stone.



How are previous semesters delineated? My first Bachelor's was 10 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, those grades should count for nothing. I'm not the same person (I'm just living with the consequences of his choices).

Man, I should call up my old DO mentor at the top 10 teaching hospital I used to work for and tell him that he'll never get anywhere in academia, be able to do research, or make a difference in his patients' lives because of his degree It'll be a shock to him, for sure.

I mean, whatever, you don't want to go DO, that's fine. Less than 2% of DOs do the quackery nonsense, and there's plenty of MDs out there that are quacks as well (look no further than the guy who started the anti-vax movement for proof of that). I'm sorry you had a bad experience working for a snake oil salesman, but most DOs function completely identically to their MD counterparts, in addition to the majority of DOs completing ACGME residencies (soon all DO residencies will be ACGME due to the merger).

 

[IschemicBrain]

What I'm not seeing is volunteering or clinical experience, neither of which are optional in this process.

Thanks for the feedback. How far would two years of EMT work alone go in filling that gap? Do you think shadowing is mandatory in my situation?

Man, I should call up my old DO mentor at the top 10 teaching hospital I used to work for and tell him that he'll never get anywhere in academia, be able to do research, or make a difference in his patients' lives because of his degree

For the record, never said that. BTW, are *you* a DO? If not, why not? Heck, why aren't any of you guys DOs (assuming that you aren't)? (serious question)

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks for the feedback. How far would two years of EMT work alone go in filling that gap? Do you think shadowing is mandatory in my situation?



For the record, never said that. BTW, are *you* a DO? If not, why not? Heck, why aren't any of you guys DOs (assuming that you aren't)? (serious question)

Shadowing is different from EMT work.
@Mad Jack is a DO student.

 

[IschemicBrain]

Then the best questions are
Why DO if you're an aspiring DO?
Why not DO if you chose MD?

 

[gyngyn]

Then the best questions are
Why DO if you're an aspiring DO?
Why not DO if you chose MD?

Without regard to the degree, my questions are:
How have you validated your commitment to service?
Which Hispanic community do you represent?
Language skills?
AMCAS Gpa's?

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the feedback. How far would two years of EMT work alone go in filling that gap? Do you think shadowing is mandatory in my situation?



For the record, never said that. BTW, are *you* a DO? If not, why not? Heck, why aren't any of you guys DOs (assuming that you aren't)? (serious question)

I am a DO student. I had a 3.8/35 and went DO for several reasons, but the largest factor was that the specialties that interest me most (EM, anesthesia, pulmonology, and psychiatry) are all very DO friendly on the ACGME side and that the school had a great environment that was reasonably close to home. My school also has very strong ties with the second largest university teaching institution in my state, and our graduates match very strongly in nearly every specialty there because of our excellent reputation.

The "No DO" mentality is also fairly straightforward.
DO is not MD. They are two different things. They are not the same, though they typically fulfill very similar roles.

The reason I don't want to be a DO is because it does not fit the specific goals I had in mind when I decided to go back to school to become a physician. Research + hands-on work as a clinician.

Thousands of med school graduates every year; most will apply the same techniques and use the same tools, and a few will rewrite the playbook. I want to rewrite a small part of the playbook. Or die trying. I do not think I would be in the same position to leverage that perspective as a DO (but maybe I'm wrong?).

They fulfill identical roles, not very similar ones. A DO and an MD with identical residency training are interchangeable in every way.

You can do research and hands-on work as a clinician as a DO, and can be an academic physician.

You don't lose leverage because of the initials after your name- people care about the quality of your research, not where you obtained your degree. A majority of the great research out there is actually done by foreign IMGs, whose education is generally considered to be a step below DOs, but quality research depends far less on where you went to school and far more on your analytical abilities and intelligence.

 

[Vain Brother]

you're in your mid-thirties. you're not doing an MD then going back to do a PhD "later in your career", after residency when you're in your mid-forties. get realistic

of course the DO degree doesn't hold as much prestige as an MD, but it's pretty marginal. there are a finite number of MD schools and a surplus of qualified future doctors, so it's got to be an option for some applicants. if you're serious about becoming a physician, you'll consider DO. your personal experience with one DO or the perceived lack of prestige shouldn't sway you otherwise

calculate your AMCAS GPA and you can get some more useful answers about what your chances for med school are

 

[Vain Brother]

also, really hope you've been studying for the new MCAT for 2 years straight...

 

[kraskadva]

DO is not MD. They are two different things. They are not the same, though they typically fulfill very similar roles. No doubt there are many DOs who are, by some metric, superior healthcare providers than many MDs....
The reason I don't want to be a DO is because it does not fit the specific goals I had in mind when I decided to go back to school to become a physician. Research + hands-on work as a clinician....
I do not think I would be in the same position to leverage that perspective as a DO (but maybe I'm wrong?).

You're wrong. I'm not going to argue with you about it though, it's been discussed on SDN ad nauseum. You've been around long enough that you should know about the search function.

How are previous semesters delineated? My first Bachelor's was 10 years ago. As far as I'm concerned, those grades should count for nothing. I'm not the same person (I'm just living with the consequences of his choices). To be clear, *EVERY* college class I've ever taken (going back ~15 years) counts for AMCAS?

Don't worry about semester breakdowns right now. For the cumulative AMCAS gpa, average all college credits ever taken. For AACOMAS, you get to drop all but the most recent of any repeated science classes.
And don't waste your breath arguing about how previous work doesn't define you now. It's a moot point. Your recent grades speak for themselves, but you still don't have the option to leave out the old ones.

 

[Goro]

While EMT work is all and good, OP will still need to:
-shadow doctors
-do non-clinical volunteer work to display humanism and altruism
-do clinical volunteer work to display humanism and altruism, and to show that he knows what he is getting into (something EMT work does NOT do) and to convince Adcoms that eh really wants to be around sick people and their families for the next 30 years. "Bag 'em and tag 'em" adrenalin rushes won't show that either.

There are MD schools that reward reinvention, but they also require acing the MCAT, like the equivalent of a 33+.

 

[IschemicBrain]

n/t

 

[10Acious]

Reality starting to set in, seeking reasonable perspective to balance the echo-chamber of my mind so that I have a better idea of what I need to do before it's too late (if isn't already too late).

TL;DR
I am a 30-something hispanic male starting Junior year of undergrad in the Fall working toward 2nd Bachelor's (will graduate in 2017). I'm a hermit with non-existent ECs (does tutoring almost every single subject for a community college as a full-time employee count for anything? I'm guessing not) Transferring to small public liberal arts college. When all is said and done (2017+), I will have B.S. double major (Biotechnology + Math) (expected 3.8+ GPA) and B.A. (English) (2.62 GPA). No clinical experience whatsoever, but EMR + EMT certification forthcoming. I am thinking about pursuing a Master's (Harvdard Extension School), but not sure that this would be a wise choice. Given my presumably red flag-laden background, and the fact that my 2nd bachelor's deg will come from tiny public liberal arts college, is med school even realistic for me?

AMCAS sGPA: 3.72
AMCAS cGPA: 3.29

Bear in mind that I have two more years of undergrad coursework ahead of me.

Autobiography is for context, which I presume is necessary when the time comes for applications/interviews. Like everybody else, I have a story, though I imagine that mine is at least a few SDs away from mean...

WARNING: BLOCK OF TEXT FOLLOWS
============================

- Grew up in abject poverty in large city, son of an illegal immigrant and a mentally ill woman.
- Sibling and I were best in respective classes at junior high school (valedictorian, city-wide awards, national junior honor society, etc).
- Vice principal and faculty members insisted to my family that I should apply to the city's best high school; with their help, I get in.
- This school is consistently listed among the best high schools in USA; entrance exam, LORs, and more required: mandatory AP/IB curriculum, most matriculate into Ivy League schools.
- e.g. Niles Eldredge guest-lectured to <10 students in an Evolution class that I took.
- Personal/family life was bad enough that I was homeless for a time (lived in a public park) and attempted suicide; went from easy-mode straight-A student to barely passing (and not caring) in senior year; graduated (class of 2000).
- Moved to Massachusetts with family; 2 years at community college, liberal arts major (aspiring writer), 3.8ish GPA due to poor math grades (despised math at the time).
- Transferred to UMass Amherst, automatic enrollment in Commonwealth Honors College, 4.0 first semester (while not giving a crap about classes or my future).
- Grades eventually tanked as personal issues caught up with me.
- Second suicide attempt while on campus, went into hardcore treatment (drugs, therapy, groups, etc) help from counselors, campus psychiatrist.
- Graduated with 2.62 GPA, BA Major in English in the mid '00s.
- Worked as freelance writer for several years; ad/copy work for a DO, also pop-sci articles for various news outlets; focus was on biomedical research, cutting edge, future-type stuff. Won a few silly awards.

Eventually, I was inspired to go back to medical school for special reasons (can explain if wanted), and I'm now very deeply committed to becoming an MD.

Now paying out of pocket to get second Bachelor's (including med school pre-reqs).
Went back to my old community college to do first two years (for financial reasons); I fulfilled AA requirements in 3 semesters, have 4.0 GPA, took one semester off as student to tutor full-time as a campus employee (8-4, 5 days a week), tutored everything from A&P for nursing students, chem, psych, bio, statistics, calc for engineering students, remedial algebra, and more; worked with many special needs students.
- Did an independent study (research) with head of bio program; despite serious limitations at the community college, I was given green-light to do grad-student level research in the lab; a lot of correspondence with two PIs (one in Japan and one in Russia).
- Won various awards, scholarship, highest achieving student in a degree program. A lot of enthusiasm from faculty, commitments for strong LORs.

In Fall of 2015, I'll be doing double major (Biotechnology + Mathematics) at a small public liberal arts college. I'm just finishing EMR-training right now and will begin EMT training soon after. Attempted volunteer work at local ED last year, but didn't work out (they are eager to have me though). In the next two years, I plan to work as an EMT.

I have been studying religiously for the MCAT for the past two years straight (I have over 8,000 personally handmade flashcards using SRS that I programmed myself, have taken multiple mock MCATs).

I am extremely confident that I can maintain a high (3.8+) GPA, and that my MCAT score will be competitive. I have filled out 32 notebooks for 32 different textbooks (read front-to-back) completely worked out (including every textbook for every class that I have *yet* to take), including grad level texts in topology, tensor calculus, pathophysiology, clinical neurology, and tissue engineering.

I realize that my small public liberal arts college degree might be held against me, and that is one reason I am pursuing a double major (demonstrate academically rigorous curriculum)...that and the fact that I love mathematics.

The question is:
Given my shady, colorful past (red flags galore), and the fact that my GPA is a community college/public liberal arts GPA, how realistic are my prospects for med school?

I already know that I have no chance whatsoever at, say, a top 20 medical school. I'm not even sure that I have a chance at *any* decent medical school. ...It's just that DO is not an option for me.

PM me