Aspen dental partnership = shrek signing the deal

[David1991]

Hoping someone can chime in regarding Aspen ownership. I was very close to becoming an owner. Hard to imagine there's no way out.

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[ToothJockey]

Hoping someone can chime in regarding Aspen ownership. I was very close to becoming an owner. Hard to imagine there's no way out.

What made you not pursue ownership with Aspen? Any red flags?

Not a dentist, but I'm a bit skeptical of "ownership" with a corporate company. Is it just basically owning a franchise?

 

[endodonia]

Hoping someone can chime in regarding Aspen ownership. I was very close to becoming an owner. Hard to imagine there's no way out.

Did you work at aspen in order to become “close to ownership?”

If so—> how would one not know the ins and outs?

I know nothing of aspen from first hand experience but I have come in contact with former assistants/ office managers. Assistants have nothing good to say. Office managers are eerily quite about the ins and outs. I asked them about cold fronts recollection of how the payments go. They confirmed the accuracy. They also said “there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes. Money goes away and no one knows where it goes”

I asked about the inability to leave thing. The former office manager then changed the conversation. There’s something weird about that place...

 

[Cold Front]

There were 2 questions there, and a yes to one is a contradiction to a yes to the other, so which were you saying yes to?

If it is to the first, why would an owner not be able to sell his portion of the practice back to Aspen or a new owner? I've never heard of anything like that, where one cannot sell something they own.

Thanks for the clarification.

Just because you haven’t heard of anything like the Aspen POP model doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Aspen chooses you, not the other way round. They only choose dentists that work for them, and they have to see that you can be molded into their business model. You pretty much have to be a “Yes Man/Woman” and be able to have a history of hitting good production goals. Then they approach you with the POP offer. Yes, it’s a NDA and you can’t discuss with anyone. I don’t know what the POP offers look like these days, but the last time I looked up was about 10 years ago - when it was offered to me as an Aspen employee at a certain practice that was doing $2-3M revenue every year. The practice was in rural town, which most dentists wouldn’t want to live or work. The main POP offer terms at the time were; $250k investment by the dentist, dentist would get 50% of the profit sharing (but Aspen had full control of practice expenses - as they see fit, including paying their in-house marketing and practice management company - called ADMI first), Aspen would have more control hiring staff, dentist vacations and personal time offs. Pretty much Aspen would always be in the driving seat and you’d let them turn you to a well oiled production machine - and they would maximize the hell out of insurances and the carecredit health financing (which they have special relationship with). The dentist would make a lot of money, but under the Aspen dental treatment philosophy and their onsite office manager closing the deals on those treatments. The POP came with a clause to discourage the dentist from leaving the partnership or selling it to another dentist... we use to joke about it as a “deal with the devil”.


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[ToothJockey]

The dentist would make a lot of money, but under the Aspen dental treatment philosophy and their onsite office manager closing the deals on those treatments.

In my opinion, no amount of money is worth losing your autonomy. I guess Aspen owners really undervalue themselves, which is unfortunate. This is corporate dentistry, and it seems like it's the future of the profession.

But as they say, money talks

 

[David1991]

What made you not pursue ownership with Aspen? Any red flags?

Not a dentist, but I'm a bit skeptical of "ownership" with a corporate company. Is it just basically owning a franchise?

Seemed like owning a franchise to me yea. I would likely be an owner now but I wanted to be closer to my family and had a great opportunity close to my family.

Did you work at aspen in order to become “close to ownership?”

If so—> how would one not know the ins and outs?

I know nothing of aspen from first hand experience but I have come in contact with former assistants/ office managers. Assistants have nothing good to say. Office managers are eerily quite about the ins and outs. I asked them about cold fronts recollection of how the payments go. They confirmed the accuracy. They also said “there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes. Money goes away and no one knows where it goes”

I asked about the inability to leave thing. The former office manager then changed the conversation. There’s something weird about that place...

No, I worked for them out of residency to fill a year before moving back home. The assistants are paid terribly (~13/hr where I was). My office manager was good but I know many suck.

I did at one point ask about if an owner wanted to leave and the person I was speaking with basically just said it hasn't happened yet

Just because you haven’t heard of anything like the Aspen POP model doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Aspen chooses you, not the other way round. They only choose dentists that work for them, and they have to see that you can be molded into their business model. You pretty much have to be a “Yes Man/Woman” and be able to have a history of hitting good production goals. Then they approach you with the POP offer. Yes, it’s a NDA and you can’t discuss with anyone. I don’t know what the POP offers look like these days, but the last time I looked up was about 10 years ago - when it was offered to me as an Aspen employee at a certain practice that was doing $2-3M revenue every year. The practice was in rural town, which most dentists wouldn’t want to live or work. The main POP offer terms at the time were; $250k investment by the dentist, dentist would get 50% of the profit sharing (but Aspen had full control of practice expenses - as they see fit, including paying their in-house marketing and practice management company - called ADMI first), Aspen would have more control hiring staff, dentist vacations and personal time offs. Pretty much Aspen would always be in the driving seat and you’d let them turn you to a well oiled production machine - and they would maximize the hell out of insurances and the carecredit health financing (which they have special relationship with). The dentist would make a lot of money, but under the Aspen dental treatment philosophy and their onsite office manager closing the deals on those treatments. The POP came with a clause to discourage the dentist from leaving the partnership or selling it to another dentist... we use to joke about it as a “deal with the devil”.


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That part "a clause to discourage the dentist from leaving the partnership or selling it to another dentist" is what I and I think others in this thread are wondering about though. What do you mean "discourage"....like it screws them financially? Legally? I'm not sure if you're just not "allowed" to say or you don't know.

I could have been a POP where I worked. It was actually a nice area, but as mentioned about I was about 10-11hr away from my family and didn't think I wanted to invest in being there for another decade. I know I could have made a lot of money though, and owned 2-5 practices in the state over the next few years....so I do sometimes wonder if I should have stayed.

The biggest issue I had was minimal time off. 10 days off per year is bull**** especially when you're working 1-2 Saturdays per month, bringing weekly average to 42.5hr per week. If I could negotiate closer to 35hr per week then yea that would have been great.

That was something I also wondered about if I became an owner....if I was an owner, I couldn't just say hey I'm working 4 days per week and that's that lol I mean would they just fire me? I don't know. I think it depends on how desperate they are too as some places really need POPs.

If I was owning 3-5 practices though I would imagine a lot of what I would be doing is non-clinical at that point

 

[katthenomad]

I'm going slightly off-tangent here, but since we're on the topic of DSOs.... does anyone have any thoughts on MB2?

They're positioning themselves as the "Doctors' DSO" and like to call themselves a DPO (Dental Partnership Organization).

I was wondering if there is some merit to what they're pushing, pros and cons, etc...?

 

[ToothJockey]

I'm going slightly off-tangent here, but since we're on the topic of DSOs.... does anyone have any thoughts on MB2?

They're positioning themselves as the "Doctors' DSO" and like to call themselves a DPO (Dental Partnership Organization).

I was wondering if there is some merit to what they're pushing, pros and cons, etc...?

I was wondering the same thing. The way they write it, it seems like you partner with the organization.

However in reality, being the skeptic that I am, I feel like it's just another way of saying you will own a franchise practice when you own with MB2.

Personally, if I'm not feeling confident in my business management skills, I'll probably look at hiring a management firm which can do a lot of the business side things for a % fee. You can be an owner, keep your autonomy, and not have to worry too much about managing a business. Of course you will lose a % of profits to the management company, but it's better than losing your autonomy to a DSO.

 

[katthenomad]

I was wondering the same thing. The way they write it, it seems like you partner with the organization.

However in reality, being the skeptic that I am, I feel like it's just another way of saying you will own a franchise practice when you own with MB2.

Personally, if I'm not feeling confident in my business management skills, I'll probably look at hiring a management firm which can do a lot of the business side things for a % fee. You can be an owner, keep your autonomy, and not have to worry too much about managing a business. Of course you will lose a % of profits to the management company, but it's better than losing your autonomy to a DSO.

Glenn Vo of Nifty Thrify (if you're ever in that FB group) sold out to MB2. He now only owns 40% of his practice, I believe, with the 60% being owned by MB2. So yeah it's a DSO/DPO. They're claiming that the difference is that the "owner dentist" still has full autonomy over treatment planning, supply ordering, patient care, etc... basically anything that has to do with the clinical side. While MB2 handles the nitty gritty business side. Of course, being the admin/founder of a huge FB group has its perks because everytime he recruits someone to join MB2, he gets a commission $$ (which is totally understandable).

Now the question is: I'm not sure how much different this is for the average joe schmoe GP who's "partnering" with a corp, say Heartland?

 

[Blueshirts]

I was wondering the same thing. The way they write it, it seems like you partner with the organization.

However in reality, being the skeptic that I am, I feel like it's just another way of saying you will own a franchise practice when you own with MB2.

Personally, if I'm not feeling confident in my business management skills, I'll probably look at hiring a management firm which can do a lot of the business side things for a % fee. You can be an owner, keep your autonomy, and not have to worry too much about managing a business. Of course you will lose a % of profits to the management company, but it's better than losing your autonomy to a DSO.

My local dentist did this. He bought his first practice off of the retiring guy in 2015 and now owns 3 locations. He hired someone who had 30 years of running multiple offices to update different types of work flows, and she was hired on as an very well paid employee for the length of time that she was working for him. Much cheaper than joining a corp chain and having them take a nice % in perpetuity.

 

[David1991]

My local dentist did this. He bought his first practice off of the retiring guy in 2015 and now owns 3 locations. He hired someone who had 30 years of running multiple offices to update different types of work flows, and she was hired on as an very well paid employee for the length of time that she was working for him. Much cheaper than joining a corp chain and having them take a nice % in perpetuity.

With owning 3 locations does he primarily work at 1 and then have an associate at the other 2? Or is he mostly hands off at this point from clinical dentistry?

 

[ToothJockey]

My local dentist did this. He bought his first practice off of the retiring guy in 2015 and now owns 3 locations. He hired someone who had 30 years of running multiple offices to update different types of work flows, and she was hired on as an very well paid employee for the length of time that she was working for him. Much cheaper than joining a corp chain and having them take a nice % in perpetuity.

More power to him for seeking that route. Most dentists are not MBA's and they're probably not good at optimizing a business, but they can definitely hire people who are. Very few people are capable of being a one-man army. It's good to be able to realize when to seek help.

And it beats the alternative - being an indentured servant for a DSO.

 

[Cold Front]

What do you mean "discourage"....like it screws them financially? Legally? I'm not sure if you're just not "allowed" to say or you don't know.

I probably have a gag order somewhere in my Aspen files, for me not to discuss their shady doings in public.

Best ask those Qs current Aspen employees. I left Aspen a decade ago... and I don’t regret it a single bit. I made more money as a private practice dentist anyways, even with their POP deal. Being liberated from DSOs is worth millions in my book.

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[Blueshirts]

With owning 3 locations does he primarily work at 1 and then have an associate at the other 2? Or is he mostly hands off at this point from clinical dentistry?

He works 5 days a week, 2 days at 2 satellite offices, and 1 day at his first purchased office. The first purchased office he has a guy who works for him part time as an associate (this same person also works part time at 1 of the nearby dental schools in the clinic), and the other offices are the same set up. I live in an area with a lot of dentists though, lots of guys at the tail end of their careers who want to still work but only part time, so it's a win-win situation for everybody involved.

 

[ToothJockey]

He works 5 days a week, 2 days at 2 satellite offices, and 1 day at his first purchased office. The first purchased office he has a guy who works for him part time as an associate (this same person also works part time at 1 of the nearby dental schools in the clinic), and the other offices are the same set up. I live in an area with a lot of dentists though, lots of guys at the tail end of their careers who want to still work but only part time, so it's a win-win situation for everybody involved.

Quick question, where do you find these people/groups that work with dentists to help build their practices?
And what exactly do they do? Do they do any marketing/advertising to get more patients to your practice, and if so how do they get the budget?

And precicely how much do you have to pay these companies, is it % of overall profits for the year or a set fee?

 

[Blueshirts]

Quick question, where do you find these people/groups that work with dentists to help build their practices?
And what exactly do they do? Do they do any marketing/advertising to get more patients to your practice, and if so how do they get the budget?

And precicely how much do you have to pay these companies, is it % of overall profits for the year or a set fee?

Once you start taking some CE you'll see lots of these people around, it's usually someone who has worked in the front office of a dental practice for a few decades and are looking to show you the ropes, basically, for a fee that can grow depending on how long and how much work they think they need to do. Some of the things they do, out of a long laundry list, could include things like retraining staff on the phones, coaching up staff/dentists on case acceptance, how to set their fee schedule appropriately or negotiate with insurance for more competitive rates, etc etc. Every business has different needs, some dentists happen to find someone who knows what they are doing, other times you might just end up blowing thousands, ymmv.