Assessing competitiveness for individual programs

[Biscuit799]

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So (correct me if I'm wrong), general surgery is a moderately competitive specialty overall, but the competitiveness varies fairly wildly from program to program.

How does one go about assessing one's competitiveness for programs, or finding info about the level of a given program (especially given that, unlike med school, nobody published avg Step scores, and there's no real GPA factor)?

 

[Kubed]

I too would kill for that kind of detailed information, but sadly no one has ever put it out. Seems like when it comes to competitiveness, coasts > mid west, warm places > cold.

... so I'll see everyone at the middle of the north pole interview. 😛

 

[Blade28]

If only something like this existed.

 

[geekgirl]

your dept chair of someone of that nature should sit down with you and give you honest advice about where you will likely fall and what programs are suited to you.

that said, do not believe every word from these people's mouths. i know loads of folks who matched at great programs despite words of discouragement from dept chairs. and those that matched poorly despite adoration from their dept. so grain of salt, always.

no official website if that's what you're looking for.

 

[Blade28]

Yeah, people are often disappointed to hear there's no med school-equivalent of the MSAR for pre-meds.

 

[DrDawg]

I too would kill for that kind of detailed information, but sadly no one has ever put it out. Seems like when it comes to competitiveness, coasts > mid west, warm places > cold.

... so I'll see everyone at the middle of the north pole interview. 😛

I'd also add university > university affliated > community.

I also tell our med students to apply on ERAS to a wide variety of programs. When you start getting your interview invites you will be able to gauge how competitive you are.

 

[Biscuit799]

Thanks for the input everyone! I wish there were a more concrete answer for this, but apparently not :-/

 

[quagmire]

i'd like to echo two points: 1)apply widely. sure it's a little bit more money but this is a once in the lifetime thing and it's a good investment in the end. i didn't know how competitive i would be so i applied across the whole spectrum in terms of university programs. you'd be surprised who you get interviews from. 2) talk to your chairman and you'll get a good idea about how competitive you are from the types of interviews you get. that's the only way.

remember one thing about this whole process. there are a finite number of places and a finite number of applicants. and every applicant will have completely different rank lists. so there is a really good chance that you will match in your top three. good luck.

 

[Biscuit799]

Thanks for the advice, and I'm definitely planning on applying broadly.

I guess I'll ask an easier to answer question. Does anyone have any idea of (and I know it's subjective) of maybe, 5 programs considered "very competitive," 5 programs considered "my dog could match there," and 5 programs that are "remarkably, incredibly, wonderfully... average"?

Not trying to play the prestige game, but I'm really struggling to search for somewhere to start.

 

[46&2]

One way to assess competitiveness is the number of people who apply vs. who get interviewed; the ease of applying on AMCAS, however, dilutes this number.

Board pass rates generally correlate well with USMLE scores. A program with >90% pass rate will probably have applicants with high Step scores; one with <80% less so.

Programs do have an idea of the average resident's GPA and Step score. Will they tell you if you ask them? Dunno, but at some interviews they stated them.

Where have people at your school matched or are getting interviews at now? You can gauge your own application by their capabilities.

Very competitive programs are more likely require or highly suggest 1-2 years of research. If you look at a list of the programs with mandatory research, they correlate well with the most reputed institutions.

A list of where graduating chiefs go can help. Institutions that graduate chiefs who more often go directly into private practice may not emphasize your academic credentials as much. A place that has chiefs match into plastics, fellowships at Memorial Sloan Kettering, and have a history of making academic surgeons will want you to show you can do the same.

Finally, the more residents a program has, the more leeway they'll likely have in accepting someone who hasn't maxed out the applicant triathalon (Step, Research, GPA), i.e. someone with outstanding research but with a mediocre Step I. It just makes sense you'd have a better chance getting into a big program (>5 categoricals) vs. those who only take two.

To roughly do the 5 program thing...

Very competitive (not in any order, and just a sampling)
1. John Hopkins
2. MGH, Beth Israel, Brigham (the Harvard hospitals)
3. University of Washington
4. UCSF
5. University of Michigan
*I would include the best community programs (Virginia Mason in Seattle, Baylor Dallas) in this echelon

Average- hard to call any program perfectly average. Most have their +/-. For example, I wouldn't say it's easy to match at a big institution like Utah or North Carolina, even though people would not mention them in the Top 20 competitive programs. I don't think you can compare Rush vs. U of Miami vs. Arizona... you'll find a variety of applicants for them.

Easier matches
1. Carillion in Roanoke, VA (only unfilled program last match)
2. Texas Tech El Paso
3. some programs in New York City (you can find the whole spectrum of programs there)
4. Washington Hospital in D.C.
5. Tulane (I'm assuming after Katrina it would not be highly sought after)

 

[Blade28]

Thanks for the advice, and I'm definitely planning on applying broadly.

I guess I'll ask an easier to answer question. Does anyone have any idea of (and I know it's subjective) of maybe, 5 programs considered "very competitive," 5 programs considered "my dog could match there," and 5 programs that are "remarkably, incredibly, wonderfully... average"?

Not trying to play the prestige game, but I'm really struggling to search for somewhere to start.

Instead of just picking randomly, how about narrowing down your list based on a few basic, initial criteria?

*Location (geography)
*Urban vs. rural vs. suburban
*Small vs. large program
*Academic vs. affiliated vs. community

Etc.

 

[SLUser11]

I'd also add university > university affliated > community.

I also tell our med students to apply on ERAS to a wide variety of programs. When you start getting your interview invites you will be able to gauge how competitive you are.

Having applied widely, and then interviewed at both University and community programs, I would opine that competitiveness is not that easy to assess.

Is it based on how difficult it is to match there? After that, is it based on ABSITE scores and fellowship matches?

There were plenty of academic programs, including ones with required research, that did not match as well as university-affiliated programs. ABSITE scores were horrible at a few academic centers, and the fellowship matches were often less than desired.

Some of the places that I really liked (Mich State-Grand Rapids, Baylor Dallas, and of course KU-Wichita) seemed to be more difficult to match into than the university programs that I interviewed at. They also had excellent ABSITE scores and fellowship matches.

The one thing that I believe does dictate competitiveness is geography. Lucky for me, I don't have a desire to live in CA or NY......

 

[Bitsy3221]

Thanks for the advice, and I'm definitely planning on applying broadly.

I guess I'll ask an easier to answer question. Does anyone have any idea of (and I know it's subjective) of maybe, 5 programs considered "very competitive," 5 programs considered "my dog could match there," and 5 programs that are "remarkably, incredibly, wonderfully... average"?

Not trying to play the prestige game, but I'm really struggling to search for somewhere to start.

Try starting here:
http://www.facs.org/residencysearch/search/search.html

When I was applying, I too felt overwhelmed so I understand what you are going through. When I sat down and was honest with myself, I realized that there definitely were some areas of the country I did not want to move to, so I was able to eliminate those. I also realized that I (for various reasons) wanted an academic (vs. university affiliated or community) program. Once I figures these basics out, I did a search using this website on all the programs in the areas I would consider moving too, filtered out the community programs and then used the info on this site as a rough guide as to the competitiveness of the program.

Be aware that this data is self-reported by the individual programs, so don't necessarily take what you see here as gospel, but I do think that all-in-all, it provided a good overall view of the program (better than FRIEDA, anyway). I can tell you that the data reported on my home program is spot-on correct.