Asystole after Spinal for THA

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I think that there are differences related to spread. Obviously both techniques are effective for THA. But 15mg isobaric bupivicaine will not creep up as much as 15 mg hyperbaric bupivicaine. (Lower thoracic dermatomes vs mid-upper thoracic dermatomes). Patients with a block that extend higher will have more of a sympathectomy and more sensory input. IMO that is why blood pressures tend to trend higher with isobarics, and they require more sedation.

I'm aware of how hyperbaric mixtures spread when placed supine or lateral. What I'm pointing out is that my anecdotal experience is that despite seemingly surgical anesthetic levels where needed, little old patients are slightly more likely to wiggle and require IV narcotics during hips when I used isobaric 0.5% 15 mg compared to hyperbaric 0.75% 11.25 mg.

I just think the block is seemingly slightly "less dense" with isobaric. I can't explain why. It just seems to work out that way. And I'm not talking failures of spinals having to convert. Just the difference of a patient needing a little fentanyl IV for comfort and the other one not needing it.
 
I'm aware of how hyperbaric mixtures spread when placed supine or lateral. What I'm pointing out is that my anecdotal experience is that despite seemingly surgical anesthetic levels where needed, little old patients are slightly more likely to wiggle and require IV narcotics during hips when I used isobaric 0.5% 15 mg compared to hyperbaric 0.75% 11.25 mg.

I just think the block is seemingly slightly "less dense" with isobaric. I can't explain why. It just seems to work out that way. And I'm not talking failures of spinals having to convert. Just the difference of a patient needing a little fentanyl IV for comfort and the other one not needing it.

The reason these patients wiggle is that isobaric spinals will frequently spare the sacral dermatomes. These patients frequently need a little sedation to cover the foley after placement of the spinal. The medication stays in the lumbar area. One guy I worked with would actually do a combined hyperbaric and isobaric spinal- put 4mg hyperbaric as the first injection. Second injection isobaric. The hyperbaric stuff covered the foley and the "wiggles"
 
they don't have a foley. Our institution (and orthopods) are pretty gung ho about trying to prevent catheter associated infections (CVP, foley) and so for an elective case of under 2 hours without large volume blood loss expected we will often forgo it. They can be straight cathed in PACU if needed.

I'm also curious as to the mechanism behind an isobaric mixture sparing sacral dermatomes. Are the nerves not passing through the same CSF that you just placed the bupivicaine into?
 
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Great case and great discussion. I feel better prepared for having read this thread. Thanks to TrojanGopher for the post.
 
For a unilateral procedure, your alternatives are to either A) use a hypobaric solution (ex. with the operative hip up) or B) use a hyperbaric/supine combination provided that the patient is able to lie with the operated side down for at least six minutes prior to rolling supine [Martin-Salvaj G et al. Anesth Analg 79: 1107, 1994]. Note that at some point, as the analgesic agents become diluted out of dextrose, the anesthetic becomes "fixed" and position no longer matters. Studies by Pvery et al [45, 46] and Bodily et al [51] however, have shown that this can take over 60 minutes to occur. Also note that there are no true isobaric solutions, all of them are slightly hypobaric. Additionally, "isobaric" solutions are some of the most widely variable in terms of distribution but in general, isobaric solutions offer lower blocks than hyperbaric solutions, decreasing the overall risk of cardiovascular compromise.

Baricity and patient position overwhelmingly affect the block height. Minor contributors such as concentration, dose, and volume, are of almost trivial consequence. Injection site seems to matter for isobaric solutions [74] but not for hyperbaric solutions [70]. Morphologic (ex. height) and various descriptive CSF variables (ex. CSF volume) have been shown to be statistically significant but are clinically irrelevant as they are far too variable and many are difficult to assess.

Spinal blocks wear off in a cephalad to caudad direction, thus sacral levels will last longer than thoracic. Higher blocks usually wear off faster than lower blocks. Adrenergic agonists can prolong a spinal block, with the maximum does of PHE (5 mg) usually providing longer duration than the maximal dose of EPI (0.5 mg). Clonidine can also prolong blocks, even when given orally [96-98] but has been associated with increased hypotension in some studies. Agonists are most effective in tetracaine blocks, less-so with bupivacaine


http://openanesthesia.org/index.php?title=Spinal_Anesthesia#Spinal_Anesthesia
 
For a unilateral procedure, your alternatives are to either A) use a hypobaric solution (ex. with the operative hip up) or B) use a hyperbaric/supine combination provided that the patient is able to lie with the operated side down for at least six minutes prior to rolling supine [Martin-Salvaj G et al. Anesth Analg 79: 1107, 1994]. Note that at some point, as the analgesic agents become diluted out of dextrose, the anesthetic becomes "fixed" and position no longer matters. Studies by Pvery et al [45, 46] and Bodily et al [51] however, have shown that this can take over 60 minutes to occur. Also note that there are no true isobaric solutions, all of them are slightly hypobaric. Additionally, "isobaric" solutions are some of the most widely variable in terms of distribution but in general, isobaric solutions offer lower blocks than hyperbaric solutions, decreasing the overall risk of cardiovascular compromise.

Baricity and patient position overwhelmingly affect the block height. Minor contributors such as concentration, dose, and volume, are of almost trivial consequence. Injection site seems to matter for isobaric solutions [74] but not for hyperbaric solutions [70]. Morphologic (ex. height) and various descriptive CSF variables (ex. CSF volume) have been shown to be statistically significant but are clinically irrelevant as they are far too variable and many are difficult to assess.

Spinal blocks wear off in a cephalad to caudad direction, thus sacral levels will last longer than thoracic. Higher blocks usually wear off faster than lower blocks. Adrenergic agonists can prolong a spinal block, with the maximum does of PHE (5 mg) usually providing longer duration than the maximal dose of EPI (0.5 mg). Clonidine can also prolong blocks, even when given orally [96-98] but has been associated with increased hypotension in some studies. Agonists are most effective in tetracaine blocks, less-so with bupivacaine


http://openanesthesia.org/index.php?title=Spinal_Anesthesia#Spinal_Anesthesia

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!

LETS NOT THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER

WHERE'S THE LOVE FOR 15mg HYPERBARIC BUPIVICAINE FOR TOTAL JOINT REPLACEMENT??

For the last fifteen years I've done my total hips and total joints using

CSE

Patient in sitting position on the side of the bed sedated with midazolam 5mg,

Tuohy to the epidural space, 27" spinal needle thru the Tuohy, hit CSF, inject 15mg hyperbaric bupivicaine, remove spinal needle, thread catheter, remove Tuohy, tape, lay patient down.

BOTTA BING BOTTA BOOM. DONE.

IN THE HOLDING AREA.


R.N. inserts foley. Patient ready for surgery before they are rolled into the OR.

Ephedrine required every once in a while.

This anesthetic works and it is safe.

Epidural catheter in place in case re-injection needed but all our surgeons are fast so not needed. Catheter utilized for post-op infusion for overnight pain relief with PCEA epidural. Catheter DCed at 0700 on post op day #1.

Patient satisfaction high.

We do around 40 total joints a month using this very simple, standardized anesthetic.

No need to make it more complicated.
 
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whoa whoa whoa!!!!!

lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater

where's the love for 15mg hyperbaric bupivicaine for total joint replacement??

for the last fifteen years i've done my total hips and total joints using

cse

patient in sitting position on the side of the bed sedated with midazolam 5mg,

tuohy to the epidural space, 27" spinal needle thru the tuohy, hit csf, inject 15mg hyperbaric bupivicaine, remove spinal needle, thread catheter, remove tuohy, tape, lay patient down.

botta bing botta boom. Done.

In the holding area.


r.n. Inserts foley. Patient ready for surgery before they are rolled into the or.

Ephedrine required every once in a while.

This anesthetic works and it is safe.

epidural catheter in place in case re-injection needed but all our surgeons are fast so not needed. Catheter utilized for post-op infusion for overnight pain relief with pcea epidural. Catheter dced at 0700 on post op day #1.

Patient satisfaction high.

We do around 40 total joints a month using this very simple, standardized anesthetic.

No need to make it more complicated.

whoa

lol, that must be 27G or 7"
 
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WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!

LETS NOT THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATHWATER

WHERE'S THE LOVE FOR 15mg HYPERBARIC BUPIVICAINE FOR TOTAL JOINT REPLACEMENT??

For the last fifteen years I've done my total hips and total joints using

CSE

Patient in sitting position on the side of the bed sedated with midazolam 5mg,

Tuohy to the epidural space, 27" spinal needle thru the Tuohy, hit CSF, inject 15mg hyperbaric bupivicaine, remove spinal needle, thread catheter, remove Tuohy, tape, lay patient down.

BOTTA BING BOTTA BOOM. DONE.

IN THE HOLDING AREA.


R.N. inserts foley. Patient ready for surgery before they are rolled into the OR.

Ephedrine required every once in a while.

This anesthetic works and it is safe.

Epidural catheter in place in case re-injection needed but all our surgeons are fast so not needed. Catheter utilized for post-op infusion for overnight pain relief with PCEA epidural. Catheter DCed at 0700 on post op day #1.

Patient satisfaction high.

We do around 40 total joints a month using this very simple, standardized anesthetic.

No need to make it more complicated.

Sorry, I must disagree with you. Why bother with a CSE utilizing the MAXIMUM dosage of Hyperbaric Bup and then place a catheter. A more logical approach would be 7-10 mg of Bup followed by a catheter in case a redose is neccessary. This would limit hypotension, bradycardia and the need for pressors.

Perhaps, you should try the ISOBARIC technique . Less hypotension and longer blocks. You won't know until you give it a try (similar to your skepticism with U/S). Even if you prefer a CSE an isobaric dose of Bupivacaine 10 mg through the needle would likely be all the local you would need for the case.


I prefer using U/S to do postop pain blocks which easily last until 0700 and there is no catheter to pull out. Patient Satisfaction is high.
 
Sorry, I must disagree with you. Why bother with a CSE utilizing the MAXIMUM dosage of Hyperbaric Bup and then place a catheter. A more logical approach would be 7-10 mg of Bup followed by a catheter in case a redose is neccessary. This would limit hypotension, bradycardia and the need for pressors.

Perhaps, you should try the ISOBARIC technique . Less hypotension and longer blocks. You won't know until you give it a try (similar to your skepticism with U/S). Even if you prefer a CSE an isobaric dose of Bupivacaine 10 mg through the needle would likely be all the local you would need for the case.


I prefer using U/S to do postop pain blocks which easily last until 0700 and there is no catheter to pull out. Patient Satisfaction is high.

I don't do the CSE, but I also give almost all total joints 15 mg of hyperbaric bupivicaine.

I agree with you completely on the superiority of isobaric spinals, but as I stated before I don't use isobaric bupivicaine for medicolegal reasons.

Why give the maximum dose of hyperbaric bupivicaine with an epidural in place?

The epidural is primarily for post op pain relief. Its effectiveness for surgical ansthesia in the elderly total joint population is far less reliable. Did a bunch total joints under straight epidural before I threw my hands up and said "no more". Go with your best punch first. Don't pull your first punch counting on a weak second to finish the job.
 
I don't do the CSE, but I also give almost all total joints 15 mg of hyperbaric bupivicaine.

I agree with you completely on the superiority of isobaric spinals, but as I stated before I don't use isobaric bupivicaine for medicolegal reasons.

Why give the maximum dose of hyperbaric bupivicaine with an epidural in place?

The epidural is primarily for post op pain relief. Its effectiveness for surgical ansthesia in the elderly total joint population is far less reliable. Did a bunch total joints under straight epidural before I threw my hands up and said "no more". Go with your best punch first. Don't pull your first punch counting on a weak second to finish the job.


Isobaric Tetracaine is READILY available and there are no medicolegal issues. Dosing is easy as 10-12 mg is more than adeqaute for most total joints. 15 mg of Isobaric Tetracaine will outlast your Hyperbaric Bupivacaine by at least one hour if not longer (90 min). In addition, a touch of epi will significantly prolong the tetracaine while having only a modest prolongation of the bupivacaine.

My partners use 15 mg of hyperbaric bupivacaine daily on our total joints. Of course it works and is safe 99% plus of the time. However, I stopped using such high doses of hyperabic Bup about 2 years ago and have never looked back. Isobaric tetracaine (readily avail and indicated for spinal use) is now my go to local for SAB injection in most situations.
 
Sorry, I must disagree with you. Why bother with a CSE utilizing the MAXIMUM dosage of Hyperbaric Bup and then place a catheter. A more logical approach would be 7-10 mg of Bup followed by a catheter in case a redose is neccessary. This would limit hypotension, bradycardia and the need for pressors.
.

Ummmm, Blade, perhaps it's because I almost NEVER see hypotension and bradycardia and all the other

SINISTER S H IT


you listed.

MY TECHNIQUE IS DEFT AND SAFE AND PROVEN, MAN.

You're trying to add an

ASTROPHYSICIST ADDENDUM....with LITERATURE (lol....dude...the literature...it doesn't always add up...I respect your dedication to "science" BUT....

OUR "SCIENCE"...our "LITERATURE" was recently ROCKED IN SCANDAL...(academic dude who published greatly in all our "annals" about NSAIDS and pain control...all studies turned out to be FABRICATED


So CAREFUL where you go with trying to like or dislike a procedure according to

THE LITERATURE.😀

All I can report, Blade, is

what I do in the trenches

EVERY DAY.

DUDE I'M NOT SOME ACADEMIC SCIENTIST


reporting to you second hand.

I'm TELLING YOU WHAT I DO EVERY DAY AT SIX THIRTY IN THE MORNING.

If I'm doing it at a Boutique Hospital where VIPs are the norm,

and it's working, and I'm happy, and the patient is happy, and the surgeon is happy,

THAT'S GOTTA MEAN SOMETHING, AGREED?:laugh:

You are POO POOING on a very, very effective model. I dunno why you wanna make things so complicated, man. I'm telling you, what I do on a daily basis for total joints

WORKS.

Everyone is happy.

NO ISOBARIC, NO ROCKET SCIENCE, NO "PUT THE PATIENT ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER"

needed.

We just SIT 'EM UP AND WE

do our thing, in the Pre Op area, so our patients are READY FOR SURGERY before they go back to the OR (ohhh....that includes the FOLEY...placed PREOPERATIVELY by an RN...just sayin'...top THAT, nursing STUPIDVISORS reading this..).

HYPERBARIC BUPIV 15mg thru the spinal needle thru the Tuohy.

DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

We opened our hospital two years ago. TO DATE, I'VE NEVER HAD A COMPLICATION SQUIRTING 15 mg HYPERBARIC BUPIV THRU THE SPINAL NEEDLE THRU THE TUOHY. And we do ALOTTA JOINTS MAN. ACTUALLY, TOMORROW MORNING I'LL BE SQUIRTING MORE 15 mg HYPERBARIC BUPIV!!!!

You need to come visit my hospital, Blade. Seriously. Check it out.

EASE. SAFETY. NO ROCKET SCIENCE REQUIRED.
 
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Isobaric bupi all the way

EASY E (a.k.a. Arch)

Shows his youth as a clinician by marrying himself to

ONE WAY.

BRANCH OUT, G.

There's

alotta ways to SKIN A CAT

in this business.

You are WAYYYY TOO YOUNG

to be married to WAYS TO DO THINGS.

Keep an open mind, man.

I'm about twelve years ahead of you and I'm still learning.

And I'm WAY AHEAD OF YOU.
 
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BUT....

OUR "SCIENCE"...our "LITERATURE" was recently ROCKED IN SCANDAL...(academic dude who published greatly in all our "annals" about NSAIDS and pain control...all studies turned out to be FABRICATED[/B]

good old Scott Rueben. Although I think more of his retracted studies were related to pregabalin than cox-2 inhibitors.

Now they're retracting the Japanese guy's studies related to granisetron for PONV...



Will people please stop making up studies just to get published? It's not that impressive in the first place.
 
How long do you sit them up to avoid hypotension with 15mg of bupivacaine?

To be honest, dude, hypotension hasn't been a big problem, and most are done with only 500mL crystalloid in.

Ephedrine is drawn up at the bedside. I'd say less than 10% need a bump or two of ephedrine.

CSE is placed and as soon as it is taped we lay them down.
 
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