At what point should you give up on AOA?

[OnlyLiveOnce]

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I'm in my first year of med school and I already have an idea of what specialties I am aiming for. They are competitive but do not require AOA, based on what the statistics show.

Last semester I got straight Near Honors (/High Pass/etc./one notch below Honors) for every class that was worth a grade. That includes Human Anatomy, Metabolism, & Cell Bio, with Anatomy being weighted like 2 classes.

One one hand, I'm very grateful for that commendable performance, but on the other hand, from an "AOA/gunner" point of view, I have the equivalent of four classes in which I "failed" to get Honors, while I am sure there are many gunners in my class who may have gotten straight Honors or maybe some Honors and some Near Honors. Getting straight Near Honors means that, in every course, 25% of the class did better than I did.

So at what point should a med student look at his transcript and say, "Ok, at this point I should just forget AOA and instead should just suffice myself with being in the upper quartile/half of the class and diverge the rest of my efforts to other aspects of medical education and, of course, making sure I don't neglect other important areas of my life."

And if you think I'M being pessimistic, my roommate is an MS-2 who has gotten straight Honors in every class so far except for 2, in which he got Near Honors, and he genuinely doubts whether or not he's in the running for AOA. He seemed resigned to the fact that he probably won't get it. I was like "Are you kidding me?!"

 

[Dr Roboto]

From what I've been hearing on SDN, the criteria for AOA is different from school to school. So you first gotta find out how folks are selected at your school. There might be a community service component. And other thing, maybe you should talk to some folks in AOA at your school. I'm sure they can better gauge how competitive you are than some folks on the internet who probably don't attend your school.

 

[LadyWolverine]

First of all, NO specialty "requires" AOA for acceptance into a program.

Secondly, you need to calm down before someone mistakenly diagnoses you with rabies. Comparing a "near honors" to a "fail" should honestly earn you a decent smack upside the head.

Thirdly, AOA does NOT equal gunner. AOA equals doing well in classes, as well as being exceptionally well-rounded and interested in academics and extracurricular activities - not for the sake of resume-padding and gunning for first place, but out of a genuine desire to learn and serve.

You really need to stop listening to what your roommate tells you.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

First of all, NO specialty "requires" AOA for acceptance into a program.

Secondly, you need to calm down before someone mistakenly diagnoses you with rabies. Comparing a "near honors" to a "fail" should honestly earn you a decent smack upside the head.

Thirdly, AOA does NOT equal gunner. AOA equals doing well in classes, as well as being exceptionally well-rounded and interested in academics and extracurricular activities - not for the sake of resume-padding and gunning for first place, but out of a genuine desire to learn and serve.

You really need to stop listening to what your roommate tells you.

Woah, you need to not read into more than what I actually said.

Firstly, "Requires AOA" was a figure of speech.

Secondly, I didn't equate NH to Fail, I said that by getting "only" an NH, I "failed to get honors", meaning I came up short in that goal. I was simply making the point that, despite the fact that it's a good performance on an absolute scale, it's not top-of-the-class quality.

And my roommate didn't tell me anything, I asked him about AOA and he shrugged and said he doesn't think he'll get it despite his performance, which I found outrageous.

 

[BigRedBeta]

What point? Probably the first day of med school if you want to keep your sanity (oops too late).

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Correct me if Im wrong, but if you score at the 25%ile for every class you take, then chances are your class rank will be higher than that 25%ile, considering quite a few people will do well in anatomy but suck at Biochem, vice versa. So if you are consistently at that HP/H threshold you might have a good shot??

Or I am totally wrong ?

 

[njbmd]

First of all, NO specialty "requires" AOA for acceptance into a program.

Secondly, you need to calm down before someone mistakenly diagnoses you with rabies. Comparing a "near honors" to a "fail" should honestly earn you a decent smack upside the head.

Thirdly, AOA does NOT equal gunner. AOA equals doing well in classes, as well as being exceptionally well-rounded and interested in academics and extracurricular activities - not for the sake of resume-padding and gunning for first place, but out of a genuine desire to learn and serve.

You really need to stop listening to what your roommate tells you.

Listen to this advice. AOA is nice but it's not the end of the world nor does it make you the greatest applicant to any residency program out there. Always do your best no matter what. Whether you make AOA or not you still need the best grades that you can muster for any specialty. Specialty selection isn't about the top students picking one or two specialties and the rest of the class getting leftovers. Drop the pre-med syndrome and concentrate on doing your best regardless of the grades.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I'm in my first year of med school and I already have an idea of what specialties I am aiming for. They are competitive but do not require AOA, based on what the statistics show.

Last semester I got straight Near Honors (/High Pass/etc./one notch below Honors) for every class that was worth a grade. That includes Human Anatomy, Metabolism, & Cell Bio, with Anatomy being weighted like 2 classes.

One one hand, I'm very grateful for that commendable performance, but on the other hand, from an "AOA/gunner" point of view, I have the equivalent of four classes in which I "failed" to get Honors, while I am sure there are many gunners in my class who may have gotten straight Honors or maybe some Honors and some Near Honors. Getting straight Near Honors means that, in every course, 25% of the class did better than I did.

So at what point should a med student look at his transcript and say, "Ok, at this point I should just forget AOA and instead should just suffice myself with being in the upper quartile/half of the class and diverge the rest of my efforts to other aspects of medical education and, of course, making sure I don't neglect other important areas of my life."

And if you think I'M being pessimistic, my roommate is an MS-2 who has gotten straight Honors in every class so far except for 2, in which he got Near Honors, and he genuinely doubts whether or not he's in the running for AOA. He seemed resigned to the fact that he probably won't get it. I was like "Are you kidding me?!"

AOA isn't necessarily all about preclinical grades, my chapter for instance puts weight into M3 grades, Step I score, and other things.

Having said that, even if you have ruled out certain specialties (and an M1 who has his career nailed down after 1 semester is either a rare bird or a foolish one), the best training even in non-competitive specialties will require you to stand out in some way, and AOA is a great way to do that.

Besides, will 'giving up' on AOA change the way you approach your courses? If no then what does it matter? If yes, well I can tell you the best way to slip from top 25% to bottom 25% is not giving it some semblance of your best shot day in and day out.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

Besides, will 'giving up' on AOA change the way you approach your courses? If no then what does it matter? If yes, well I can tell you the best way to slip from top 25% to bottom 25% is not giving it some semblance of your best shot day in and day out.

No, it will just spare me the tension of wondering about it all the time. I still have to master the material for several other reasons. But it won't be as insane of a level of intensity.

It will only have the slight impact that I will study to actually learn the material and think about how to apply it as a doctor (i.e. the way education is supposed to be done), rather than poring over the syllabus 3 times trying to catch every bit of non relevant minutia and cramming it into my head for the sake of being the best test-taker. Rather, I can say "I'm sorry, but this stuff right here is not clinically relevant, these are just fun facts and figures, and so I'm not gonna spend 2 hours trying to memorize them. And if they ask something about this stuff in order to stratify the class, I don't care."

As opposed to

"Crap, I'm shooting for AOA, so I've gotta memorize everything, no matter what it is."

 

[MSHell]

No, it will just spare me the tension of wondering about it all the time. I still have to master the material for several other reasons. But it won't be as insane of a level of intensity.

It will only have the slight impact that I will study to actually learn the material and think about how to apply it as a doctor (i.e. the way education is supposed to be done), rather than poring over the syllabus 3 times trying to catch every bit of non relevant minutia and cramming it into my head for the sake of being the best test-taker. Rather, I can say "I'm sorry, but this stuff right here is not clinically relevant, these are just fun facts and figures, and so I'm not gonna spend 2 hours trying to memorize them. And if they ask something about this stuff in order to stratify the class, I don't care."

As opposed to

"Crap, I'm shooting for AOA, so I've gotta memorize everything, no matter what it is."

As an M1, do you know what is clinically relevant?

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

as an m1, do you know what is clinically relevant?

qft

 

[confuse]

Instead of posting on here, why don't you send an email to your Dean of Education. AOA is not a secret society so if you just ask, your dean will tell you. Several people in my school asked about it and the dean emailed to the class a very thorough description of the criteria and induction process. It's impossible for anyone here to assess your chance bc each chapter is a bit different, but I think for most schools, you have to be at least in the top 25% academically to be considered. Good luck.

 

[Abilene85]

I wanted AOA when I started. It made me semi-miserable. Now I try to be happier, less stressed, and just do my best. I figure that if I'm meant to be AOA, I'll end up with that honor. Otherwise, I will have done my best while keeping my sanity. I think it's a pretty decent approach.

 

[146233]

I wanted AOA when I started. It made me semi-miserable. Now I try to be happier, less stressed, and just do my best. I figure that if I'm meant to be AOA, I'll end up with that honor. Otherwise, I will have done my best while keeping my sanity. I think it's a pretty decent approach.

👍

 

[kdburton]

I'm in my first year of med school and I already have an idea of what specialties I am aiming for. They are competitive but do not require AOA, based on what the statistics show.

Last semester I got straight Near Honors (/High Pass/etc./one notch below Honors) for every class that was worth a grade. That includes Human Anatomy, Metabolism, & Cell Bio, with Anatomy being weighted like 2 classes.

One one hand, I'm very grateful for that commendable performance, but on the other hand, from an "AOA/gunner" point of view, I have the equivalent of four classes in which I "failed" to get Honors, while I am sure there are many gunners in my class who may have gotten straight Honors or maybe some Honors and some Near Honors. Getting straight Near Honors means that, in every course, 25% of the class did better than I did.

So at what point should a med student look at his transcript and say, "Ok, at this point I should just forget AOA and instead should just suffice myself with being in the upper quartile/half of the class and diverge the rest of my efforts to other aspects of medical education and, of course, making sure I don't neglect other important areas of my life."

And if you think I'M being pessimistic, my roommate is an MS-2 who has gotten straight Honors in every class so far except for 2, in which he got Near Honors, and he genuinely doubts whether or not he's in the running for AOA. He seemed resigned to the fact that he probably won't get it. I was like "Are you kidding me?!"

Getting AOA is different at every school. For instance... at my school you can potentially earn two honors points per credit (2 for Honors, 1 for High Satisfactory). At the end of the year if you've gotten 75% of the possible honors points then you get a dean's letter of commendation. You have to get at least 2 deans letters within the first three years to be ELIGIBLE for AOA. Other more subjective stuff weighs in at that point, but I can't be sure what that "other stuff" is becuse its not really public knowledge among students as far as I know. So based on that criteria at my school, if you were an MS1 at my school you'd still be in the running for AOA as long as you could improve your grades in MS2/3. I'll be honest - I was completely average last year (couple honors, couple high satisfactory, couple satisfactory). This year I've managed to get honors in everything so far. I don't know if the subject matter is more interesting, if I've become "better" and more efficient at studying, or whatever else, but last year at this time I mentally threw in the towel on my chances for AOA and now its looking like I may be eligible assuming I'm able to maintain the grades I've gotten so far. With that said it may be worthwhile figuring out how your local AOA chooses to induct people before you "give up." If the specialties you're interested in are competitive then it would be a bad thing to just start slacking off simply because you can't graduate with AOA - you'll still need to have these above average grades regardless of the fact that they aren't all honors.

 

[Jolie South]

I wanted AOA when I started. It made me semi-miserable. Now I try to be happier, less stressed, and just do my best. I figure that if I'm meant to be AOA, I'll end up with that honor. Otherwise, I will have done my best while keeping my sanity. I think it's a pretty decent approach.

For me, there are things that I'm not willing to give up for med school success: my health and my marriage being two. If I can honor and keep sane, then yay. If not, at least I'm happy and I haven't lost what's most important.

 

[OnlyLiveOnce]

As an M1, do you know what is clinically relevant?

I do not, but the head of the curriculum at my school has publicly admitted that their exams tend to use small tiny details that no doctor would be expected to memorize, in order to separate the top of the class from the rest. As one faculty member said "I looked at some of the exam questions, and I know fully well my own doctors couldn't answer those." I.e. they're not really clinically relevant.

As the course director said, the faculty has a tendency to test for stratification rather than competency, and instead of promoting a well-rounded approach to medical education, the message they're accidentally sending is that it's in your best interest to lock yourself up and just study all day rather than do other medical-related activities as well, and that the current test format leads to students doing "binge studying", i.e. cramming huge amounts of tiny details into their heads for the exam, then forgetting it all as they cram in the next set of tiny details for the next exam, rather than studying for long-term retention and understanding.

Luckily they are making drastic changes to the curriculum starting with next year's entering class, including switching to Pass/Fail for the preclinical years, reducing the volume of information in the syllabi, reducing class time, and introducing new year-long elective courses that promote a more well-rounded, clinically-oriented education, rather than leaving us to just cram in the library all day.

Now, some of the things I've heard here have given me a renewed hope. If AOA is truly about being a well-rounded student and being in the ballpark of academically outstanding, rather than just being the absolute best of the class in terms of GPA, then I may still have a shot if I start pulling straight Honors from here on out and continue to do the other activities I've been doing. That will be stressful though.... so I'll have to stick to the attitude that someone else mentioned above. "If I get it, I get it, and if I don't, I don't. But I'm still gonna study hard anyway."

 

[Noeljan]

As per AOA national rules, you must be in the top 25% of your class to be eligible. After that the school can set its own standards (however you cannot be considered unless you fall in the top 25% come selection time no matter what the individual school has as criteria). I would guess other things include scholarship (research), volunteering, and stuff like that (like any other honor society). So you could be top of your class and do nothing else besides class work (and in theory should not make AOA). At the same point, don't expect that doing EC's and not doing well in courses can get you in. In theory it should be an all around type student (though we all know life isin't always fair🙂Suprisingly there a lot of very involved students at my school that also do well academically (which you wouldn't expect if you just read SDN about having to study 10 hours a day every day to do well in school🙂 The trick is quality not quanitity when it comes to studying in med school.

 

[Seph09]

Never give up on AOA. Just because your specialty choice doesn't really requie it - does not mean you shouldn't try for the best at all times.

 

[johnsmith777]

No one cares about AOA.

Crush the Step1 and Honor your M3/M4 rotations and you will get the residency you want.

 

[Gibbles]

I've encountered far too many docs with an AOA certificate hanging on their wall with no idea how to treat people let alone diagnose a disease.

It's definitely not the end of the world if you don't make AOA. All of the best Internists that I've ever encountered are not AOA and I'd take a good Internist over a crappy subspecialist any day of the week. Besides, the good Internists are so knowledgeable that they are practically textbooks in themselves. Such is the case with some attendings (not AOA) as they can quote textbook pages and chapters almost verbatim from Harrison's.

 

[meister]

That's a bizarre post, where in bizarro-world are you that interns are knowledgable?

 

[turkeyjerky]

For eligibility criteria, go to the following website and find your school's chapter.

http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/chapters/webdir.html

I think most schools have slightly different criteria, for instance mine only takes into account grades and step 1 scores. Generally, I think clinical grades are weighted much more heavily than preclinical grades (at least for senior AOA), so if you rock third year, you still have a good shot.

 

[themudphud]

I agree with BigRedBeta.

At what point did I give up on being AOA? A long long time ago.

 

[Gibbles]

That's a bizarre post, where in bizarro-world are you that interns are knowledgable?

Believe it or not, the rural Dakotas and Nebraska. We literally have Internists here that can quote page and paragraph from Harrison's. It's very impressive. Many of them are often far more knowledgeable about subspecialty medicine than the subspecialists.

It's not like we have anything else to do around here, but read anyway...🙁

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Believe it or not, the rural Dakotas and Nebraska. We literally have Internists here that can quote page and paragraph from Harrison's. It's very impressive. Many of them are often far more knowledgeable about subspecialty medicine than the subspecialists.

It's not like we have anything else to do around here, but read anyway...🙁

Internists are NOT the same as Interns...

 

[Gibbles]

Internists are NOT the same as Interns...

Meant to say Internists in my previous post. Of course, Interns won't have that kind of knowledge. Thanks for the heads up and the previous poster's response makes more sense.