At what point should you give up?

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shotofb12

shotofb12

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Throughout my undergrad I've met a number of people (I've ran in to a few here too) that unfortunately cannot gain admission into a US medical school (Some have already tried and failed, and others are getting ready to apply although it seems the odds are stacked against them).

I know this one guy for example... who has a 20 MCAT (after multiple re-takes) and a GPA barely above 3.0, yet he refuses to quit. While I respect his perseverance... I feel that he is more delusional/in denial than anything else at this point.

While I understand the mentality that says "If being physician is your dream you should never give up". For some people it would probably be a better idea to just cut their losses and move on.
At what point do you guys/gals think people should quit their pre-med ambitions?
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shotofb12 said:
Throughout my undergrad I've met a number of people (I've ran in to a few here too) that unfortunately cannot gain admission into a US medical school (Some have already tried and failed, and others are getting ready to apply although it seems the odds are stacked against them).

I know this one guy for example... who has a 20 MCAT (after multiple re-takes) and a GPA barely above 3.0, yet he refuses to quit. While I respect his perseverance... I feel that he is more delusional/in denial than anything else at this point.

While I understand the mentality that says "If being physician is your dream you should never give up". For some people it would probably be a better idea to just cut their losses and move on.
At what point do you guys/gals think people should quit their pre-med ambitions?
Click to expand...
If they make it all the way to the application stage, I would quit after cycle numero dos.

If not:
1) I would quit if I get below a 3.2 (Unless I went to HYPSM).
2) I would quit if I get below a 28.
3) I would quit if I cannot time manage ECs with grades and MCAT.
4) I would quit if I find something new I love.
5) If I get accepted, I would quit if something personal came up that prevented me from doing a cross country move.
 
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It's something I've wanted all my life, but I will only apply twice. There is only so much stress, financial or otherwise, for potentially no gain, that I'm willing to put my family/husband through. It wouldn't be ideal, but I'm sure I could find something else that could make me reasonably happy without an MD.
 
I think at that point, they need to reconsider their reason going into medicine. Some people just have too much on their plate, or they have something major going on in their life. If their reason can be fulfilled with other health professionals, PA, Nurse, Techs, then those aren't bad either. I think if they don't want to be those vs. a physician, then I think they have a problem with their motivation getting into medicine. It's ok if the doc route doesn't work, turn it around and do something else.
 
3 failed cycles of applying broadly to DO schools is the point of giving up. If you can manage a 25/3.2 and write coherently there should be a DO school out there that will take you. You probably can't be a plastic surgeon, but you can definitely be a PcP.

After 3 failed cycles, go be an Emt, np, podiatrist, etc
 
The Knife & Gun Club said:
3 failed cycles of applying broadly to DO schools is the point of giving up. If you can manage a 25/3.2 and write coherently there should be a DO school out there that will take you. You probably can't be a plastic surgeon, but you can definitely be a PcP.

After 3 failed cycles, go be an Emt, np, podiatrist, etc
Click to expand...

Or learn to code in addition to the bolded, or go to a good law school (only a good law school)? I know enough from my clinical experience that I could never be a low level or mid level healthcare provider, not the kind of environment for me.
 
shotofb12 said:
Throughout my undergrad I've met a number of people (I've ran in to a few here too) that unfortunately cannot gain admission into a US medical school (Some have already tried and failed, and others are getting ready to apply although it seems the odds are stacked against them).

I know this one guy for example... who has a 20 MCAT (after multiple re-takes) and a GPA barely above 3.0, yet he refuses to quit. While I respect his perseverance... I feel that he is more delusional/in denial than anything else at this point.

While I understand the mentality that says "If being physician is your dream you should never give up". For some people it would probably be a better idea to just cut their losses and move on.
At what point do you guys/gals think people should quit their pre-med ambitions?
Click to expand...

This is why it is so absolutely critical to go into medicine with an open mind. Medicine isnt going anywhere so to blindly reject alternative careers is delusional.

For me, if i failed to get into medical school within 2 cycles, i would switch to economics/finance in the healthcare sector. Simple as that.

Officer Farva said:
Or learn to code in addition to the bolded, or go to a good law school (only a good law school)? I know enough from my clinical experience that I could never be a low level or mid level healthcare provider, not the kind of environment for me.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, programming is also up there.
 
3 failed cycles. Honestly though I would have given up if I failed my second cycle. At that point the costs were so astronomical and my sheer annoyance with this process was at such an all-time high, pretty much any other career was "the path of least resistance"
 
Sgucci said:
3 failed cycles. Honestly though I would have given up if I failed my second cycle. At that point the costs were so astronomical and my sheer annoyance with this process was at such an all-time high, pretty much any other career was "the path of least resistance"
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Is this your second time around?
 
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Officer Farva said:
Or learn to code in addition to the bolded, or go to a good law school (only a good law school)? I know enough from my clinical experience that I could never be a low level or mid level healthcare provider, not the kind of environment for me.
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Isn't law school even more numbers-based than med school? At least in my case, law school is a no-go since my GPA isn't anywhere near high enough for T14...

EDIT: Apparently jk. It's high enough for like 2-3 of the T14 but definitely not the top! Anyway I guess my point is that someone who has trouble in med school admissions due to their numbers will likely have trouble in law school t14 as well...
 
bananafish94 said:
Congrats!
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Thank you. Ideally, I'd want to encourage people to keep trying no matter how long it takes, but honestly it's smarter if you give everything your go for the few times you apply, and adjust. the burnout of a failed cycle is so brutal, I wouldn't want people to go through it unnecessarily too many times. @familyaerospace applied so many times and got rejected for so many ridiculous reasons and I give them major props, but you can build an insanely successful career in the time it takes.
 
Sgucci said:
Thank you. Ideally, I'd want to encourage people to keep trying no matter how long it takes, but honestly it's smarter if you give everything your go for the few times you apply, and adjust. the burnout of a failed cycle is so brutal, I wouldn't want people to go through it unnecessarily too many times. @familyaerospace applied so many times and got rejected for so many ridiculous reasons and I give them major props, but you can build an insanely successful career in the time it takes.
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Some people just simply can't apply several times because of money. It's very sad. I agree completely re: the burnout of a failed cycle. I currently don't have any acceptances, but I do have interviews. It will be somewhat comforting going into next cycle (if I have to) that my application this year was good enough to get four interviews, so the modifications probably don't have to be that intense. It's also comforting that I have not yet applied to DO schools. But if after three cycles one has not been able to get in anywhere even after applying broadly, I think that might suggest (as much as I hate saying this) that there is something un-fixable about their application.
 
If i hadn't gotten in this cycle (2nd try), I would have quit. I cannot realistically justify spending any more money on applications.
 
bananafish94 said:
Some people just simply can't apply several times because of money. It's very sad. I agree completely re: the burnout of a failed cycle. I currently don't have any acceptances, but I do have interviews. It will be somewhat comforting going into next cycle (if I have to) that my application this year was good enough to get four interviews, so the modifications probably don't have to be that intense. It's also comforting that I have not yet applied to DO schools. But if after three cycles one has not been able to get in anywhere even after applying broadly, I think that might suggest (as much as I hate saying this) that there is something un-fixable about their application.
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Yea, a lot of this process basically amounts to how much money you can throw at it. Do you think your short-comings this cycle may be due to interviews? When I screwed up interviews last cycle, I treated every interview after the ones I screwed up differently and incorporated feedback I got. I can definitely relate to the "something unfixable on my app" feeling, but honestly interviews make or break you and a passing opinion from an interviewer who isn't receptive to you will sink you. Either way I'd definitely call up schools which rejected you or waitlisted you post-interview and ask for feedback. Worst they can tell you is no
 
Sgucci said:
Yea, a lot of this process basically amounts to how much money you can throw at it. Do you think your short-comings this cycle may be due to interviews? When I screwed up interviews last cycle, I treated every interview after the ones I screwed up differently and incorporated feedback I got. I can definitely relate to the "something unfixable on my app" feeling, but honestly interviews make or break you and a passing opinion from an interviewer who isn't receptive to you will sink you. Either way I'd definitely call up schools which rejected you or waitlisted you post-interview and ask for feedback. Worst they can tell you is no
Click to expand...
One interview I definitely felt bad about. The interviewer was just not having any of my answers at all and just seemed very distracted and disinterested. So I'm not expecting anything there. I interviewed at one school where I thought my interview was great--it was really more of a conversation where I got along very well with the interviewer. He didn't actually ask me any direct questions, so I don't know what I was being graded on. I got wait-listed there. I interviewed last week and thought my interview went quite well...the interviewer blatantly said that my answer to an ethics question was "correct." So I tend to take that as a good sign. But who knows. If I don't get in there, I have a later interview, but at that point I feel that they're going to be pretty picky. When all is said and done, I definitely intend to speak to the schools and see what I could have done better.
 
bananafish94 said:
One interview I definitely felt bad about. The interviewer was just not having any of my answers at all and just seemed very distracted and disinterested. So I'm not expecting anything there. I interviewed at one school where I thought my interview was great--it was really more of a conversation where I got along very well with the interviewer. He didn't actually ask me any direct questions, so I don't know what I was being graded on. I got wait-listed there. I interviewed last week and thought my interview went quite well...the interviewer blatantly said that my answer to an ethics question was "correct." So I tend to take that as a good sign. But who knows. If I don't get in there, I have a later interview, but at that point I feel that they're going to be pretty picky. When all is said and done, I definitely intend to speak to the schools and see what I could have done better.
Click to expand...

Interviewers are very picky and you can never really gage how well you do in an interview accurately until you get feedback from the school, e.g. for the interviewer who didnt ask direct questions he could have assumed you would elaborate more, or the ethics question guy - the guy could have a totally different opinion from you and marked you down because of that (I had that happen during a MMI, where the interviewer got intimidated by my answer and screwed over my evaluation bc he didnt agree).
 
Sgucci said:
Interviewers are very picky and you can never really gage how well you do in an interview accurately until you get feedback from the school, e.g. for the interviewer who didnt ask direct questions he could have assumed you would elaborate more, or the ethics question guy - the guy could have a totally different opinion from you and marked you down because of that (I had that happen during a MMI, where the interviewer got intimidated by my answer and screwed over my evaluation bc he didnt agree).
Click to expand...
Yeah it's tricky when you're dealing with an opinion-based issue. I tend to go with the "I can see both sides of that" and explain the different perspectives so that I seem balanced, and then I say what I think, substantiated with reasons, so that I actually answer the question. I've heard it said that they respect people who defend their opinion when it's the opposite of the interviewer's, but I don't know how true that is. Then again, I have yet to be challenged on an ethical/political answer at an interview.
 
Gibbward said:
2 or 3 failed cycles. Basically if my MCAT is no longer valid, I will quit, because there is no way in hell am I going to take that test again.
Click to expand...

For me it was three cycles, because of the MCAT
 
This was my first cycle and the last cycle for which my MCAT was valid. I spent all the money I saved up working full-time last year on this cycle. It would have been very hard to get up the motivation to apply again.

No offense to your friend, but I would have given up if I got a 20 multiple times. I would not bet a few hundred thousand dollars on doing well in a test-based field if I couldn't even get close the MCAT average of accepted students

Otherwise, I would do 1 MD and 1 MD/DO cycle
 
No body can give you the answer to this question since neither they nor I will understand your predicament (unless they are going through something similar).

You're going to have to decide when is the right time to put in the towel and start considering other vocations. I have a friend who applied 7 times and ended up getting into a Univ of California program. After this person's 4th time, they retook the MCAT for the third time. I don't know their exact stats (thought it was none of my business to inquire) but suffice it to say this person's initial score was low enough to cause her to reapply during almost a decade of her life.

So the answer is really up to you. Best of luck and improve your stats in any way you can!

Cheers!
 
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Well...I am doing my seventh full-time consecutive year in undergrad to pursue medicine. I will give up if I don't get in next cycle, assuming I will be applying to a good number of MD and DO schools.
 
I won't apply unless I have a 4.0 post-bac GPA and an my MCAT score is at least 90th percentile.
 
WhiteHatDoc said:
No body can give you the answer to this question since neither they nor I will understand your predicament (unless they are going through something similar).

You're going to have to decide when is the right time to put in the towel and start considering other vocations. I have a friend who applied 7 times and ended up getting into UCI. After her 4th time she retook the MCAT for the third time. I don't know her exact stats (thought it was none of my business to inquire) but suffice it to say hers was low enough to cause her to reapply during almost a decade of her life.

So the answer is really up to you. Best of luck and improve your stats in any way you can!

Cheers!
Click to expand...

7 times!? Why is that even allowed
 
My mom met the father of a young man that applied 4 times. He did a program with linkage and will be starting school in August. I can't imagine trying 5 times.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using SDN mobile app
 
when should you give up?

when your hands fall off from holding on too hard. when you've decided that living with the foreverness of quitting is better than the pain of small obstacles. when the last breath leaves you.

if you want it. do it. fight hard or don't fight. there will always be plenty of mediocre lives watching the fight from a distance.

:diebanana:
 
holidayprincess said:
when should you give up?

when your hands fall off from holding on too hard. when you've decided that living with the foreverness of quitting is better than the pain of small obstacles. when the last breath leaves you.

if you want it. do it. fight hard or don't fight. there will always be plenty of mediocre lives watching the fight from a distance.

:diebanana:
Click to expand...

Your naivety doesn't anger me. It just makes me sad to think of how far down you're going to fall when reality strikes.
 
shotofb12 said:
Throughout my undergrad I've met a number of people (I've ran in to a few here too) that unfortunately cannot gain admission into a US medical school (Some have already tried and failed, and others are getting ready to apply although it seems the odds are stacked against them).

I know this one guy for example... who has a 20 MCAT (after multiple re-takes) and a GPA barely above 3.0, yet he refuses to quit. While I respect his perseverance... I feel that he is more delusional/in denial than anything else at this point.

While I understand the mentality that says "If being physician is your dream you should never give up". For some people it would probably be a better idea to just cut their losses and move on.
At what point do you guys/gals think people should quit their pre-med ambitions?
Click to expand...

Do not EVER give up. Work as hard as you possibly can, and take pride in your ambition. I'd love to advise you as a psychologist if you need further assistance, you certainly sound as though you need some guidance. Do not hesitate to contact me.

All the best.

-Mr G
 
In a perfect world, I wouldn't give up. Realistically, I don't think I could do more than three application cycles.

Any of the following occurrences would make me quit:

2 failed MCAT attempts
Less than 3.5 in an SMP
No interviews after 2 cycles
 
Officer Farva said:
If they make it all the way to the application stage, I would quit after cycle numero dos.

If not:
1) I would quit if I get below a 3.2 (Unless I went to HYPSM).
2) I would quit if I get below a 28.
3) I would quit if I cannot time manage ECs with grades and MCAT.
4) I would quit if I find something new I love.
5) If I get accepted, I would quit if something personal came up that prevented me from doing a cross country move.
Click to expand...

This amuses me.
 
MrGravelli said:
Why are you so angry?

All the best.

-Mr G
Click to expand...

Did you miss the part when I said "...doesn't anger me"?

That poster has been giving a ton of really sweet, but totally naive and completely misguided advice. The post below sounds like a synopsis of titanic, not of a realistic applicant.

tumblr_inline_mumvlzrf1w1qfv5u9.gif


holidayprincess said:
when should you give up?

when your hands fall off from holding on too hard. when you've decided that living with the foreverness of quitting is better than the pain of small obstacles. when the last breath leaves you.

if you want it. do it. fight hard or don't fight. there will always be plenty of mediocre lives watching the fight from a distance.

:diebanana:
Click to expand...
 
ridethecliche said:
Did you miss the part when I said "...doesn't anger me"?

That poster has been giving a ton of really sweet, but totally naive and completely misguided advice. The post below sounds like a synopsis of titanic, not of a realistic applicant.

tumblr_inline_mumvlzrf1w1qfv5u9.gif
Click to expand...


You sound angry. Perhaps the aforementioned poster simply has a different view than yourself.

All the best.

-Mr G
 
MrGravelli said:
You sound angry. Perhaps the aforementioned poster simply has a different view than yourself.

All the best.

-Mr G
Click to expand...

I have bigger things in life to worry about than the musings of a misguided poster. That said, I'd also prefer that people that come here for advice be given advice with some basis in reality instead of unrealistic slop.

Actually, that advice applies to you as well. Stop giving misguided advice when you know nothing about this process.

Whose sock are you btw?
 
ridethecliche said:
I have bigger things in life to worry about than the musings of a misguided poster. That said, I'd also prefer that people that come here for advice be given advice with some basis in reality instead of unrealistic slop.

Actually, that advice applies to you as well. Stop giving misguided advice when you know nothing about this process.

Whose sock are you btw?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry?
 
Probably when you've exhausted all options.
I think a 3rd MCAT attempt with a much improved score (min 28 from the 20s) might have a shot at a local state school if has other strengths, retakes some classes to score higher, and is lucky.

If someone really really wants it and wants to gamble, consider going abroad somehwere - with these marks a Carib school; or if you write the British MCAT (BMAT) the UK, or if the high school marks are decent a 5 or 6 year MD program in UK or Ireland. However, be prepared to try to stay in Europe forever (residency + future work life). This is not easy however and you could be stuck in limbo of not matching in the USA and not matching in Europe.

My biggest concern though:
Is the 20 MCAT due to actual lack of studying due to lack of time or some sort of personal problem at the time of the test?
If one actually studied for some time (at least a couple hours a day for a few weeks) and still scored a 20 I would be worried. Probably either indicates apathy for the material or a lack of critical thinking in understanding the material. This is an issue because MCAT material is really the foundation for understanding things in med school. It only gets more difficult - just think about HOW MUCH there is to know about all the body systems, disease and differential diagnosis, pharma, medical interventions, stats/critical appraisal of literature, research methods PLUS clinical and hands-on skills/procedures and all of this is being tested on the step exams. I think someone with the IQ to score a 20 MCAT will basically need an attitude shift to the tune of dropping everything and eating/living/sleeping medicine for 4 years to grasp all this info and succeed / match for residency. This is why schools have the MCAT - it's not just to differentiate between applicants, it's to know if you will handle the material. Schools don't want someone to come in and fail miserably because it wastes their time/money, wastes a spot for a good candidate, and wastes your time / money if you 're not getting anywhere. I really think you need to consider just HOW MUCH there is to know. The implications being that you understand all this stuff because you will be responsible for someone else's life as a doctor, so trust me they will test you to make sure you know your stuff and are safe, and I'm unsure if a 20 MCAT indicates someone intelligent enough to safely grasp this stuff!

Good luck!
 
PhysioMD said:
Probably when you've exhausted all options.
I think a 3rd MCAT attempt with a much improved score (min 28 from the 20s) might have a shot at a local state school if has other strengths, retakes some classes to score higher, and is lucky.

If someone really really wants it and wants to gamble, consider going abroad somehwere - with these marks a Carib school; or if you write the British MCAT (BMAT) the UK, or if the high school marks are decent a 5 or 6 year MD program in UK or Ireland. However, be prepared to try to stay in Europe forever (residency + future work life). This is not easy however and you could be stuck in limbo of not matching in the USA and not matching in Europe.

My biggest concern though:
Is the 20 MCAT due to actual lack of studying due to lack of time or some sort of personal problem at the time of the test?
If one actually studied for some time (at least a couple hours a day for a few weeks) and still scored a 20 I would be worried. Probably either indicates apathy for the material or a lack of critical thinking in understanding the material. This is an issue because MCAT material is really the foundation for understanding things in med school. It only gets more difficult - just think about HOW MUCH there is to know about all the body systems, disease and differential diagnosis, pharma, medical interventions, stats/critical appraisal of literature, research methods PLUS clinical and hands-on skills/procedures and all of this is being tested on the step exams. I think someone with the IQ to score a 20 MCAT will basically need an attitude shift to the tune of dropping everything and eating/living/sleeping medicine for 4 years to grasp all this info and succeed / match for residency. This is why schools have the MCAT - it's not just to differentiate between applicants, it's to know if you will handle the material. Schools don't want someone to come in and fail miserably because it wastes their time/money, wastes a spot for a good candidate, and wastes your time / money if you 're not getting anywhere. I really think you need to consider just HOW MUCH there is to know. The implications being that you understand all this stuff because you will be responsible for someone else's life as a doctor, so trust me they will test you to make sure you know your stuff and are safe, and I'm unsure if a 20 MCAT indicates someone intelligent enough to safely grasp this stuff!

Good luck!
Click to expand...

This is awful advice.

Going to a carib school with poor grades and a sub par MCAT on multiple attempts is paramount to setting your money on fire.
 
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